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7:25 AM
@WiseGenius Haha :-))
@PeterWAWood We already have a ticket opened for it, @qtxie will process it.
 
@DocKimbel Yes. That need to modify both interpreter and compiler to support it.
 
7:42 AM
@Oldes Good point to keep in mind.
@MarkI Case handling in Red is currently incomplete, because we are still missing unicode collation support.
@iArnold Good use case example, indeed.
 
@DocKimbel Yes. That need to modify both interpreter and compiler to support it.
 
@Sonny Ah! (--)' :-)
 
8:42 AM
@PeterWAWood To be honest, I don't care about the impact on SELECT. Whenever I can I use path notation, which is faster (at least in R2) and speed is what I want.
Hm.. above is not correct, checking my current code, I use SELECT quite a lot from some reason. But in all cases, when I have it used, I would expect case-sensitive SELECT anyway.
Ah.. I see why I don't use path notation.... because in R2 using path notation with not existing key throws error while SELECT return NONE.
Path notation was fixed in R3, but I'm still in the R2 territory :-/
 
9:36 AM
SELECT was just an example - path notation will be impacted in the same way.
Also if execution speed is so important, don't you want all strings, paths and words to be case sensitive so the evaluator can avoid all those unnecessary checks?
 
Hey everyone. Humble suggestion as an interested onlooker to this project: add a link in the documentation for Red to the Rebol2 docs, and a quick sentence saying that Red (high-level) is source-compatible with Rebol2. Currently, there are only docs for Red/System, and a casual visitor to the site may leave with the impression that this is all that Red has.
 
10:23 AM
@Oldes Still because of your Flash dialect?
@seertaak Unfortunetaly, we cannot edit the Rebol2 official docs, which is still under the control of Rebol Tech company, and I'm not sure they'll be willing to do that. ;-) We have started working on the Red own documentation, though.
 
@DocKimbel: is linking to Rebol2 from the Red docs page impermissible?
 
@DocKimbel Not exactly Flash dialect as it used to be.. but I use scripts which parses specially prepared SWF files, creates intermediate text representation of it (github.com/Oldes/Starling-timeline-example/blob/master/Assets/… ), which is than converted into my own binary format (using another REBOl script), which I use in Adobe AIR for playing it instead of old SWFs.
Maybe a little bit complicated, but it's working quite fine. And the my binary representation could be used in other engines one day, when some will be ready :)
@PeterWAWood I would not have a problem with it probably, but it would be quite radical change for old rebolers:) Maybe words could stay insensitive.
 
@Oldes I would also like the change even for words - I am worried that coding will become more complicated is there is less consistency between datatypes. I can imagine every line of code starting with "if type? my-word [...."
 
@seertaak It has been stated explicitly by Rebol Tech that their documentation is not to be shared with other Rebol-like language projects. That said, I'm unsure if putting a link to the Rebol2 docs from Red site would be considered a trespassing or not... it's a bit touchy topic anyway. But now that you mention it, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea...
 
@Doc
@DocKimbel: I think at least a sentence saying Red is source-compatible with Rebol2 (or whatever) would make things much clearer. Surely that's not trespassing?
 
10:36 AM
@seertaak Nope it's not. But the thing is that we are not 100% compatible, more like 95%.
 
Ok, well then just say that. Look, I don't want to sound pushy, I'm just checking out this project :) But, honestly, I had trouble figuring out what Red is, and it took a conversation with HostileFork to figure it out. It seems to me that that's suboptimal, and it would be better if the 30,000 ft view were available from the Red site directly. For example, simply adding this sentence:
"Red consists of two substrates, the high-level Red language and a lower-level, C-like, language called Red/System. The high-level language is similar 95% source-compatible with Rebol2, and the documentation for Red/System is available below."
or "wherease" after "...Rebol2, and the documentation..."
sorry whereas
 
@seertaak actually Red consists from 3 substrates, Red/System, compiled Red and interpreted Red. But you probably want too much at this state... Red is still in alpha version.. it's hard to be focused on documentation when key parts are still missing.
 
Ok. Fair enough :)
 
@seertaak Right, we need to improve that. The web site so far was just for the Rebol crowd around, but we are working on a totally new web site that will be much clearer.
@seertaak Actually, it's more like a core language + DSL (Red/System is one of the DSL).
 
@PeterWAWood regarding the execution speed, Doc should decide, what is main purpose of Red.. if it's for scripting, like I use REBOL now, the execution speed is not that much important if I run the script just a few times per day.. but if it should be used to create application, every ms is counted especially on mobiles.
 
10:51 AM
@seertaak Will add that to the Documentation page, you're right, we should be more explicit there.
 
Cool, and btw I have total understanding for the fact that this is a project in alpha stage, it's logical to concentrate on code and then on docs.
 
@Oldes So you consider Rebol3 to be a no-go for mobile platforms?
 
@DocKimbel hard to say, it depends what you want to do on the mobile platform. But without native gui or access to GPU, the view will be terribly unresponsive. But I didn't tried it.
Honestly I cannot imagine myself doing some real work on mobiles :)
 
11:30 AM
Having glView would be a big step forward for REBOL3. We will need this for Red too:)
 
 
1 hour later…
12:35 PM
Do you really want var, Var, VAR being three differet words in Rebol? Well, I have small influence on the design and implications, but I am, as always, conservative here and can't imagine accepting that.
 
12:46 PM
do whatever you like with strings. And I might accept, that in terms of map!, there might be case sensitivity and in such case, programmer is fully responsible for proper word quoting in maps. But I can't imagine it with words, function names, object fields ...
 
12:57 PM
@pekr ... refinements, issues ...
 
@pekr first of all, I would use just var. Because I use case-sensitive languages, I'm quite used to it. And proper text editor helps you not to write typos. But I can live with case-insensitivity too. For scripting it's fine. But for map! datatype, I really want case-sensitivity. I really want to have map! with different behavior than block! or object!.
And I would like to have vector! datatype too. Which would not behave like block!. There should not be any SELECT possible on vector! datatype, just pick/poke and path notation - speed on the first place. Consistency away.
 
You guys should really, really, take a look at unicode.org. This casing stuff is OLD NEWS, and is properly treated in the docs on that site. It would also be a good warm-up for what's undoubtedly coming in the near future, namely, canonical forms and customizable collation. I'll try to post a summary here soon.
 
MarkI - how does it relate? For me PetrKrenzelok, petrkrenzelok, PeTRKrenzelok are all the same persons. Why should IT discipline put any burdens upon real life scenarios?
 
@pekr because of performance? And you should not use word! to keep your name because number of words is limited. At least in REBOL.
@MarkI I'm interested!
 
1:18 PM
That was your example of just one word. I can't imagine gear-movement-up being different to Gear-movement-up
that is total nonsense
and as you can see, you just said it - because of IT related constraints (speed, unicode), you do such compromises
I am not here to please programmers
progremmers are here to provide sane solution, not exposing internals I don't want to care about at all
 
I think you may be calm. I don't think Doc would do such a radical change like going completely case-sensitive.
@pekr You are pleasing programmers, because you want to give them freedom use any case. With the price, that runtime must do many checks to find that Pekr is same like peKr.
 
@pekr I'll give you a taste: it relates because the Unicode experts have grappled with case in sorting and searching, and have cogent suggestions for implementing them both flexibly and efficiently. Essentially, all your concerns have already been addressed, by people with the same priorities.
 
Would you really find it inconsistent, that "normal" interpreter level words would be case insinsitive, and words in the map, being case sensitive, with just noting that difference in Docs?
Well, maybe I fear too much, because I don't remember mysel using any such variants: MyVar, Myvar, I mostly use my-var anyway ...
 
1:42 PM
@pekr Just curious; How often would you say you actually use 2 variants of the same word in the same code?
 
It depends, how often you might make a lower/uppercase typo ...
 
@pekr :)
 
I have opposite question for you - how often would you actually use the same word name, with just different casing, to mean anything else?
If your answer is never, then allowing such possible case is a design error
 
@pekr I have the same question, but concerning Unix filenames. Who would ever do that?
 
@pekr Or maybe there's a current design error in Rebol which forces me to say never because it's impossible to have that choice.
However, I used to use it all the time in case-sensitive languages.
Now I don't so much, or at least I try not to (old habits) because switching between and porting code around different languages has taught me to do everything in lowercase. Then if I make a case-related typo, I'm going to notice it because it will be the only capital around for miles.
 
1:56 PM
You want to say, that you said var: 5 Var: 10 as a valid use case?
Imo anyone sane would not ever name two variables (words), with supposed different meaning, by the same name, just differing it via a capital letters?
 
@pekr There are sensible ways to do it. Some sane people do it consistently for different types. In fact, some languages force you to do this. It can be quite convenient... or annoying.
If Red or Rebol switched to having case-sensitive words (which I think is very unlikely to ever happen), I would continue to use lower-case words. In part for the reason mentioned above, in part to be compatable with the older versions, and in part to prove that we can be trusted to behave responsibly with our new freedom.
 
Any expectation, to what consequences (apart from my old time rebol ego) could it lead?
I mean - I know, that in Rebol/Red, I will always use case insensitive words, so I would not be hurt. But someone providing me with his code, might introduce some errors to me. Or someone coming from different world?
 
2:14 PM
The main reason for word's case-insensitivity is => DIALECT-ing.
Again.. we are too far in this debate. For me, the map! case-sensitivity would be enough.
 
ah, dialects, did not even came to my mind. I hardly use Rebol values for dialecting, mostly do string parsing ...
@Oldes - there is now group for this Saturday Rebcon in Brno, on Altme. Dunno if you read it, or if you will be able to participate?
 
I don't have Altme on this PC, so I will check it later. It's possible I could participate:) It depends on family plans.
 
@Oldes I've always wanted to write a dialect, but got never started. Would you mind explaining why case-insensitive words help? Maybe in the other room if we don't want this one cluttered. Or is it so obvious that I should just ask there?
 
2:31 PM
@WiseGenius - look here - rebol.com/rebolsteps.html#section-10
it might simply mean, that by parsing dialects, you would have to check for case variants or constantly use 'lowercase or something like that on values?
 

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