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12:51 AM
@giuliolunati keywords are either niladic or monadic ... and the monadic ones (like some and thru) do not take keywords as arguments
Er ... I meant they only don't take monadic keywords as arguments, niladic keywords are accepted just fine, as the not end above amply demonstrates.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:49 AM
do %prot-synctcp.reb

check+: procedure [s [string!]][
	print s
	if not find/part s "+OK" 3 [
		print "Error"
		halt
	]
]

print "Opening pop port"
pop: open/read synctcp://pop.clear.net.nz:110

print "Reading from port"
check+ to string! read pop

print "Sending User"
check+ w: to string! write pop to binary! join-of {USER *****} newline

print "Sending Password"
check+ w: to string! write pop to binary! join-of {PASS *****} newline

print "List"
check+ w: to string! write pop to binary! join-of {STAT} newline
and this results in something like this
+OK POP Server (pop5)
USER anonymous
+OK password required for user anonymous
PASS ******
+OK Maildrop ready
STAT
+OK 1 3016
QUIT
+OK
 
 
1 hour later…
4:00 AM
@GrahamChiu This.
 
@rgchris +1
@rgchris are the OSX builds affected as well? (their size seems okay)
 
What are you testing against?
 
@rgchris looking at the size of the binaries .. linux and windows are now 22Mb
 
Yikes!
 
Maybe there's a little bloat there?
the compiler directives have changed .. so that's likely the problem
but there are also some binding changes
 
4:06 AM
@GrahamChiu Hm...debug builds not getting stripped anymore. They shouldn't be, if you're doing a debug build as a developer you want the symbol information. But the Travis builds should lose it, all people need are the asserts if they're not building themselves.
 
2171452
(size just built)
 
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 19069682 Mar 30 13:13 r3
 
So a DEBUG=yes SYMBOLS=no when making debug builds for general public.
 
so the 24mb builds are developer with symbols?
I just did a pull on the repo, and then make -f makefile.boot
so, now I need more command line switches?
 
Yes, that's basically annotated with everything needed to trace and correlate to the original source and load in the IDE. I'm surprised it's that large just for that.
Well, we can put it on those intending to debug to say SYMBOLS=yes, I don't need the world to revolve around me :-)
 
4:10 AM
@HostileFork I've been walking around my PC all day waiting for you!
 
I always have to say SANITIZE=yes anyway
@GrahamChiu It's good to feel needed :-P
I'll fix it now
 
Well, I had 24 errors on run-recover but since I synced, they've all gone so I guess the tests have changed?
 
@GrahamChiu Nope
 
well, I'll try a newer build once they're done and see
@HostileFork And have there been binding changes of note?
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1013216 Mar 30 17:18 r3
 
@GrahamChiu 24 is suspiciously the number of failures I had when I first got rid of VAL_DECIMAL_BITS which was using integral interpretations of decimals, that's undefined behavior...it was a junky thing that R3-Alpha did...but I fixed those before committing.
So if they were things like TO BINARY! of decimal and such, that would be odd
 
4:20 AM
@HostileFork it was to binary! tests
 
Problems still there?
If the problems are still there it could be an endianness thing, but I assume you're talking about x86
 
@HostileFork yes
 
I will run the tests on windows, I typically do not
 
@giuliolunati Can't say this would be efficient, but this would match [ab]*a within a string:
[any [["a" | "b"] and ["a" | "b"]] "a" ??]
 
@HostileFork how much work would it be to try #  for comments in addition to ; ?
run-recover has 0 errors on linux, and not even the zlib one.
So, I seem to have something working ... for scheme for synchronous tcp
Is that useful to anyone?
It's a bit rough and ready
 
5:17 AM
@GrahamChiu It would be trivial, but it would break an extremely small amount of R3-Alpha code that used # for a NONE! literal.
 
@HostileFork that I didn't know about
 
As I said, I think the fact that Carl would have tried it suggests he was looking for a single-character literal for NONE!/BLANK!. I just think _ is better.
Usage of _ for blank inhibits its use as a WORD!, and some languages have leveraged its brevity to make things like underscore.js.
Which I think makes the JavaScript code that uses it look like even more of an aesthetic wasteland than JavaScript usually is. _ for BLANK! is semiotic and much more interesting IMO
 
5:38 AM
@GrahamChiu Since you bring it up, have you tried it? Just kind of replaced some things with it and thought about the impact. (Look at it without syntax coloring--it will of course look better with syntax coloring...if you do try and compare with syntax coloring, patch the colorizer first).
 
@HostileFork I've looked at and think it would look good
 
The semicolons really do kind of suck, and it's hard to think of any languages which have gone with this that are "mainstream success".
Notable users of #: Ruby, Python, Bash, Makefiles, ...
I think the # with space after it rule, is in line with Rebol's lexical "let's not waste all uses of # for everything, just because you want comments" fluidity.
#10 does not need to be a comment just because # 10 is.
and http://foo does not have to be http:/ / foo, or whatever.
catfish does not have to be cat fish: Can your cat fish? (does it dip its paw in the tank?) vs. Can your catfish. (preserve your food such that it lasts longer.)
 
6:15 AM
Hmm. Instead of some SYMBOLS flag that can get out of sync with other stuff, we could do something like DEBUG=none, DEBUG=assert, DEBUG=symbols, DEBUG=sanitize. So it's like a pecking order of how much you want. Practically speaking, no one wants a debug build with symbols and no asserts, or an address sanitizer build without symbols. I think if you're doing something uncommon, at some point you can edit the makefile yourself.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:24 AM
@HostileFork I'm looking at checking the mezzanine files for "source badness". I see that I had a fixed source path list because from memory there was some r3a bug on some platform about getting a list of source files from reading a folder. But as this is now only for tests presumably running under ren-c only, I could replace the fixed lists with recursive folder processing - correct?
 
@Brett Awesome. Yes--if something is tests only, you may assume the current Ren-C. Bootstrap is the only place to worry about old issues.
The test driver itself, may also assume this--though I haven't been terribly proactive about making the test driver fancier.
But if I didn't show you (I almost certainly did), @Brett, I thought this was pretty epic! (the EITHER CASE => CASE, if the line's not linking right)
 
@HostileFork Yes you did and it is nice :-)
 
A rare case of me mucking with the test driver, being the other point.
I mostly cross my fingers and hope things keep working. @ShixinZeng fixed a log file resuming bug the other day that I'd never had the morale to go find. :-)
 
@HostileFork Should these source badness tests be trawling through all .c and .r files in ren-c folder and below?
Other than those whitelisted.
 
Here was that issue, for those curious: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/…
@Brett The only files that should contain tabs are makefile.boot and the generated makefile, because it's mandated by GNU make. I often tweak makefiles and copy them to makefile.xxx.yyy, so I'd say ignore anything under make.
 
7:32 AM
Ok.
 
We don't control external dependencies, so skip that one
The one "source badness" property I'd suggested throwing in is, if there's a cr lf in a file, then it should be all CR LF.
 
@HostileFork Any type of file presumably.
 
If it were up to me I'd be prescriptive and tell people to get rid of the auto translation, and even if you're on windows, just use LF. I don't know if now is the time to be that prescriptive.
 
*any type of text file...
 
@Brett tests has some files that are just included to see how they get processed, they are like resource files, not source files. They can have arbitrarily bad properties.
Weird encodings, etc.
@Brett while you are tinkering, as a thought experiment, without using syntax highlighting (at least without using broken syntax highlighting), think about the # followed by space comment concept. See if you feel, as some of us do, that the rather common #-for-comment looks stronger, nicer, and more pleasing than ;
 
7:36 AM
So maybe process tests/ but not it's subfolders.
 
@Brett The subfolders of tests should be checked. There's a specific folder. "fixtures", yes that's the one.
@Brett You might leverage the information in .gitignore as well. If git is ignoring it, I don't care.
 
@HostileFork I have no strong opinion. Reclaiming ; for syntax may be useful and being able to use #as-part-of-a-type and # as a comment could be useful too.
@HostileFork Not quite sure I want to interpret .gitignore right now but to avoid redundant info that would make sense.
 
@Brett Well, I was suggesting you try it on for size. :-) I usually am angry when I'm using things like YAML or a makefile or bash, so # has had a bit of guilt-by association for those experiences...which were worse than my Ruby/Python experiences, which were still middling. But it was on accident that, after editing makefiles and YAML, I found myself with a large portion of a Rebol file using # for comment. And... and... I liked it.
Didn't know I would like it, but I did. So I'm wondering if people might, just kind of, toy with it a little. If it disrupts your syntax highlighting you're obviously going to be annoyed, but imagine if it didn't or just don't use syntax highlighting.
 
Hmm, just entered ## at the repl and got some unfinished string thing going on.
 
Previously I'd been pushing for // because I spend so much time with that one, but that seems to have less support.
 
7:43 AM
I don't have any useful syntax highlighting system.
 
@giuliolunati It is not highest priority right now, but I let you know with the progress. BTW, the intermediate language is of course Lest :)
 
@Brett Note that the unfinished string logic is in "userspace" and not too profound...and if you ever get annoyed just hit enter a couple times, to force it out.
 
Using visual studio code. Thought one day it could get a language server (like red has done) but also with support for dialects.
@HostileFork I noticed there was some discussion about loading arbitrary strings from other languages/files. I thought this is a useful area of thought. esp. after doing the processing of C files - it would be nice to have better support for that stuff in built. whether by tagging segments of an entire source file or typed tokens or whatever. But I must head to dinner now. L8r
 
@Brett Red has added a feature based on a request from Brian Tiffin. So I suppose the thing to do is see what all gets done with that.
 
8:29 AM
@rebolek cool! I'm experimenting some doc conversion using as intermediate a doc-tree e.g. <b>line1<br>line2</b> => [tag "b" content ["line1" [tag "br"] "line2"]]
 
@giuliolunati This is @rgchris's territory...and if you are going to Rebol, wouldn't you at least want <b> instead of tag "b" ?
Look into altxml and such; he doesn't have a ton of time and you know Ren-C, so if you could collaborate that would be great
 
do <xml> not sure if it works under ren-c
 
8:56 AM
@HostileFork @rgchris thx for hint, I'll do
 
@RebolBot altxml
 
Hmm. Much faster! DNS fixed huh?
 
@GrahamChiu @rgchris where I could download altxml.r source?
 
9:12 AM
@giuliolunati See the link above your message
 
@GrahamChiu It's not raw source
 
9:32 AM
I just copy and paste into an editor, but it doesn't look as if it would work in ren-c without changes
 
@GrahamChiu @HostileFork @rgchris 's code use has [x y]... -- must rewrite as func [/local x y]..., right?
 
@giuliolunati Yes, that is r3-alpha cross compatible. Ren-C will show /local as a refinement in help, so you can do time/local or otherwise use local as a refinement name. (Also, with <local> x y, you cannot inject parameters and trick a function with foo/local x y, so they don't have to sanitize their locals)
 
Ok, got altxml working with ren-c in a simple case
2
 
10:35 AM
@rgchris porting altxml to ren-c looks straightforward: none -> blank, has[...] -> func[/local ...], parse/all -> parse
 
11:24 AM
@rgchris I'd like to discuss with you about altxml output format -- <tag></tag> and <tag/> produce same output => information loss...
Maybe better <tag></tag> -> <tag> _ and <tag/> -> <tag/> _, it isn't?
2) attributes are marked with ISSUE -- why not simply WORD?
3) text is marked with %.txt -- why not simply % ?
 
 
4 hours later…
3:28 PM
@GrahamChiu Hrrrm, binary conversions is because the defines are named ENDIAN_BIG and ENDIAN_LITTLE not BIG_ENDIAN and LITTLE_ENDIAN. That does not exactly explain why windows would be different, wouldn't it have the little endian behavior too? It's like windows has BIG_ENDIAN defined somewhere, maybe something like in an enum, like BIG_ENDIAN=2, while not having its definition mean that you're on a big endian platform. Anyway, simple mistake.
But maybe I just found out the longstanding answer to the question "why is it ENDIAN_BIG and ENDIAN_LITTLE, not BIG_ENDIAN and LITTLE_ENDIAN in the defines"
Because someone, somewhere, #defined BIG_ENDIAN and LITTLE_ENDIAN as something else, and we all pay the price.
This is one of those things, like with which side you put the car steering wheel on or what side of the road you drive on, that the arguable benefits of one approach vs the other does not match the benefits of everyone just doing it one way.
 
4:16 PM
@giuliolunati I'm open to changing behaviour. The original goal was to make it useful for data extraction. I think many of the features that try to intuit the intent of the document could be better handled by the methods use to extract data, and leave the data as close to the source as possible as to—as you put it—avoid data loss.
I'm not certain which is newer, but point any revisions to my Scripts repository. I spun out R3XML to a separate repository at BrianH's request, but I don't see the sense in maintaining it like that.
The purpose of the %.txt key was to indicate a text node vs. something like %.cdata or %.bin for CDATA content.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:01 PM
@rgchris ah, right! So %.txt is ok. ISSUE vs WORD key for attribute is more an aesthetic thing, I feel better access things as tag/name than as tag/#name. Maybe also better use SET-WORD: <p> [align: "right" ...]
The only change I truly need is <empty-tag> _ => <empty-tag/> _
 
6:37 PM
@HostileFork Not sure if you've noticed that I tried to make travis builds support FFI. But I had a problem enable that for Windows builds, the problem is that the mingw-gcc on Travis is too old to build libffi 3.2.1, and the current FFI integration in Ren-C doesn't work with older version of libffi.
 
@ShixinZeng For the purposes of knowing if it's getting broken or not, if you can get it working on the linux build that's probably enough coverage to notice if a PR breaks it...then we can get rid of the FFI stubs.
 
@HostileFork On Linux and MacOS it's building
 
I don't think anyone is going to be going crazy making Windows FFI interfaces. Well Graham might, but don't encourage him. :-)
 
So, you want them to write user natives? ;)
I would rather have them working on Windows actually. We (atronix) had needs to call into .dll from Rebol in the past, and I can imagine the needs will come up in the future as well.
 
@ShixinZeng I want them to focus on designing good code from the user point of view...I do think that probably user-natives or just native-natives is better. But for a lot of what Graham wants in particular, I feel that a Qt host would be better at providing.
And exposing Qt features would not be done with FFI
 
6:46 PM
@HostileFork We had projects that required proprietary dlls, FFI was the only way to do that.
So, from a pragmatic perspective, I want this feature to be well tested on both Linux and Windows.
 
@ShixinZeng Not saying you shouldn't have it, and if you want to make it Travis-build on Windows and support requests for it, then by all means do. But I'm not going to be the one pressuring you to do so...!
 
Sure. I just want to see what would be the best way to make it happen
 
I invested what might be called "no small amount of work" to keep it from being too invasive to the core, yet still exist.
So, I want to keep it around too... now. (as somewhat tricky motivating example for a user defined type extension)
 
I can push a prebuilt libffi.a to the repository, and let windows builds on Traivs link to it
 
You could put it up on the web and have Travis pull it down.
With wget or whatever (as it does for R3-make)
 
6:52 PM
Yep, I can do that, but I just want to keep everything in one place if possible
 
7:23 PM
I think having FFI for Windows would be nice to have in the Travis builds. There are lots of libraries in dll form that could become useful.
Speaking of cool projects that could benefit from FFI, @GrahamChiu, this,The Matrix Voice is a circuit board to turn your Raspberry Pi into an Amazon Echo, might be of interest.
 
@Adrian yep. Anybody has any suggestion where to put the prebuilt libffi.a for windows builds?
 
@ShixinZeng external/ffi-prebuilt or something like it, I guess.
 
@HostileFork that'd work
 
7:47 PM
What's the spammiest number between 0 and 127 (inclusive), that's the least likely to occur as a real number? :-P
e.g. if you were going to prefill a single byte with 0xDECAFBAD style garbage, what in that range makes the best garbage, for a single byte
Just a thought experiment. I'll say 123. Because it looks like counting, is 3-digits, and isn't 127. Seems a little unnatural.
 
@HostileFork It occurs once in every 0xDECAFBAD :)
Wait. No it doesn't. You are actually talking about a half-byte :(
Kinda works, even in hex, though -- it is 7B, so a lot like 78, an old-fashioned number indeed.
 
8:11 PM
What I've done is kind of interesting. I've made the UNUSED(x) macro, which is typically just a void cast in C to tell the compiler you're not using it, actually trash the data in the C++11 debug build.
If it can. e.g. if it's an lvalue, not const, etc.
You told static analysis you weren't using it... but hey, that might get out of date, and it doesn't go and tell you "hey you're using it again, or accidentally"
 
8:36 PM
It's interesting, if @Morwenn has remarks: UNUSED() type_traits voodoo. Might write an article or put it up on code review if I get a moment.
 
8:55 PM
posted on March 30, 2017 by Steven White

I have solved my problem by other means, so this is not urgent, but now I am curious. I want to use the 'whois' function to find who owns an IP address, to find out who is using our office VPN.  I have a test IP address and I have the 'whois' program on my windows computer.  If I use the 'whois' program, I get a result, but if I try to use the REBOL 'whois' function I get a

 
9:15 PM
posted on March 30, 2017 by hostilefork

When Ren-C was started ("Coherence One") the goal was to make it compile without warnings in C, C99, C++, C++11, C++14, etc. with those levels turned up pretty high. Then, as a practice, to treat any warnings in the builds as errors. While that got fairly far at the time, it was not completed, and the switch to higher-than-default warning levels with warnings as errors never did get done

posted on March 30, 2017 by hostilefork

When Ren-C was started ("Coherence One") the goal was to make it compile without warnings in C, C99, C++, C++11, C++14, etc. with those levels turned up pretty high. Then, as a practice, to treat any warnings in the builds as errors. While that got fairly far at the time, it was not completed, and the switch to higher-than-default warning levels with warnings as errors never did get done

2
 
9:32 PM
@giuliolunati Part of the appeal of the original representation was that you could parse the tree without having to quote words—all of the pieces can be matched literally.
Lost that a bit in Rebol 3 'cause some wise souls switched issues from strings to words, and I couldn't 'hide' the namespace portion.
@Adrian It's the only English definition for 'feat' as a word in its own right, not shorthand.
(that I'm aware of)
 
@rgchris , heh, somehow that escaped me
I was only seeing it as a short form
and I guess your comment being a humorous definition (I'm assuming) also escaped me - so slow...
 
@rgchris I don't realized that b: [#id "a"] b/id = b/#id = "a" So also issue keys are ok for me!
 
9:50 PM
@giuliolunati Note that I think a lot of that... should be... reviewed!
 
@HostileFork having coherent behavior for blocks and maps while accessing things would be good...
 
It's okay for it to be weird, and have a weird plan... but the plan has to have a reasoning.
Weird is okay. Arbitrary and poorly thought out is not.
 
Which looks better for <p id="a">b</p>? <p> [id "a" %.txt "b"] or <p> [#id "a" %.txt "b"] ?
 
10:31 PM
@giuliolunati <p> [id/a "b"] ... <p> [id/"a" | {b}]
 
11:13 PM
@HostileFork Sorry, I haven't been clear. I'm actually talking about internal representation, thus "looks better" => "more efficient"
 
11:31 PM
@Adrian that's pretty cool. But more expensive than just buying an Echo dot for $49.95 !
 
Yeah, someone mentioned that in the comments. Might be more hackable, though.
 
@rgchris can we have a working binary ( not the 22Mb one ) available from rebol.info and if someone wants they can upgrade to latest using the <upgrade> path.
I guess once a month we can upgrade the ones on rebol.info but it's not necessary. And we can use those ones as stable and run all our suites against it.
@Adrian the upgrade now creates a .cmd file which you can use to copy the downloaded windows binary over the r3.exe .. still waiting for some Linux/OSX person to tell me what sort of .sh or whatever file I need to write for those OSs.
@HostileFork can we get a call/quit back? It allows us to call a shell command or whatever, and quit at the same time?
 

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