« first day (2101 days earlier)      last day (1679 days later) » 

12:00 AM
Hm, it sounds like a refinement that if you don't get the refinement it finds another way
I think that, I sort of get what you're saying, and that it's further support for what I've been trying to do... to say that FUNC and FUNCTION aren't the end-all-be-all of generators
 
not sure i know... the query-type value would still be a valid form of that datatype
 
Guess I'd have to see an example of these invocations
 
unexpected guests! be back in a bit
 
Yip
 
 
2 hours later…
1:40 AM
at the risk of sounding foolish I was thinking of something like where I have the following:
interleave: func [blk [series!] item [string!]] [
pos: next blk
while [not tail? pos] [
pos: next (insert pos item)
]
return blk
]
things: ["a man" "a plan" "panama"]
but I could call interleave like this:
interleave ?block ?string
and the session might look something like:
>> interleave ?block ?string
runtime-request (series!) >> things
runtime-request (string!) >> ","
== ["a man" "," "a plan" "," "panama"]
 
@Edoc Hmmm... it says ?block but then prompts for a series... what is the significance of ?block vs the ??? I suggested?
Or should that be runtime-request (block!)
 
yout know what I meant :)
 
Not necessarily! Details can make all the difference when communicating about unknowns...
Well there's nothing stopping that, seemingly, today.
 
the function calls for a series, so the runtime would ask for a series
 
Because the decision point is at the callsite, and there's a word there, it can ask. So it's a callsite property vs. a function or typeset property.
 
1:46 AM
(however block should satisfy that)
 
e.g. you can write ?block and ?string today, if that's what you want it to do.
 
ok, maybe that's my answer then. in my dialect, i liked the friendly option of being able to write a placeholder parameter and then be able to prompt for it instead of throwing an error.
 
It would be trickier if it got the typeset from the function, and perhaps a bit more tricky with my proposal above, but probably effectively the same in practice (as I'm reasoning it out)
Because a parameter doesn't know what function it's fulfilling for, at this point.
That kind of sensitivity, like a cast or coercion, could be interesting but it does also open up some cans of worms.
 
and it's not much code to do the asking, but I was doing it a lot in my code, and i thought it would be cool to be able to have the option of letting the program ask you
as a more general thing built into the interpreter / type sytem
 
Rebol is very explicit about everything today, there's not a way to make a user defined type that is an object which can act as if it's a string...
 
1:52 AM
well this is why i ask the gurus. i ask the stupid questions so u can suss out any opportunities, or explain what a dunderhead i am
 
Well, I can say that it seems the one missing element you've got there, is to have a kind of reactivity where a parameter can be intelligent about what kind of slot it's fulfilling in the call.
 
yes. i'm specifying it in the function...
 
It's something that I think of in terms of C++ and overloading and such.
implicit cast operators, explicit cast operators, and the whole map of that territory
 
so the interpreter is doing a check...
 
Today the interpreter does know, at the moment of argument fulfillment, what type is expected.
It makes use of that information after the argument has been evaluated, to decide if it's legal.
But the information doesn't come into play in any way before the evaluation, to give the argument a chance to branch or decide what it will do.
 
1:55 AM
how about the option of asking for the input if a kind of pseudo type is in the code, e.g., interleave ?series ?string
okay... this then may just be a thing that is better handled in dialects
 
As I said, I don't see what's stopping that right now. ?series: does [ask ...]
You know you need a series, because they said ?series. The trick is if it was just ?i-dunno, how would it guess. That function has no information about interleave, it's not even on the stack (yet)
 
not sure what you mean there... you can always code a way to ask for a param. i was looking to reduce having to do that manually-- i could just have a form of placeholder datatype which would tell the interpreter to prompt for it
 
Right, but I was saying that prompting--the act of it--is a function. ?series: does [whatever] could imperatively make ?series just a normal old zero-arity function.
 
interleave was being called though, right? it was invoked as the first step of:
interleave ?series ?string
 
And the behavior of that zero-arity function would be, ask for a series, and evaluate to it.
The function can't run until its arguments are all evaluated. In the scenario I was suggesting, these ?series and ?string things are just functions.
 
2:00 AM
gotcha
 
I said that the special tricky thing, that a function could not do, would be to... let's say, change the ordering. Or gather them all at once.
Like, make a dialog out of all the arguments to one unit's worth of call. If you needed a dialog box that got both a series and a string, you'd need enough information to construct that dialog box.
 
i was thinking that if the function is doing a check for the datatype, that was when if it encountered this other notation (?some-datatype!) that it could ask for the param
 
Yup, as I said, it sounds like you're asking more or less for what I conceived as ???
 
and then ?series: [does...] makes sense... that satisfies it
 
Whether that's a good "tbd" or not, I don't know, but that's what I've used for TBD's elsewhere in systems
 
2:03 AM
??? you mention above, is that the "fill in the code here" you were talking about, or a previous idea
 
Yes, fill in the value here, through whatever UI, should the evaluator reach this point.
do [print ???] would prompt you, and then print back what you entered. It ideally would know the type it was fulfilling and for what call, to tell you.
I envisioned it for debugging more than anything.
 
yes, would be potentially great for debugging
 
And with the idea that you could opt to have it poke whatever you entered in there at the source, if it knew where the source was.
 
sounds interesting to me...
 
Anyway, so I consider it valid to want such a thing, but it would be a major complexity shift to get into the idea of arguments being sensitive to the slots they fit in. This has been studied quite well elsewhere, and it is a can of worms, so if there is to be treading into that territory it should be done carefully and with good reason.
My interests kind of currently are still stuck on seeing if the basic questions of the minimalism and configurability can work out, and I know that's just huge territory.
zero keywords, make your own function generators, fixing definitional scoping... all really are the only reason the rest of it matters
Anyway, gotta run, thanks for bringing up the suggestions, don't be afraid to...
 
2:09 AM
no prob. it's not difficult for users to do... but thought i'd ask in the interest of reducing boilerplate
 
2:55 AM
posted on August 01, 2016 by qtxie

FIX: issue #2141 (Issue! as map key isn't molded, and becomes a word) by qtxie

 
 
4 hours later…
6:47 AM
 
7:19 AM
RT @psychopaticx: @reepaganells #Rebol
 
8:17 AM
posted on August 01, 2016 by qtxie

FIX: issue #2143 (Runtime crash on making object with set-word! in spec) by qtxie

 
 
5 hours later…
1:29 PM
Recovered a wee bit more from the rebol.net wiki on schemes: Schemes:Notes
It's a bit of a jumble, but there are some interesting notes in there.
 
@rgchris It's something...! But I always find there's a lot of what and not a lot of why. I guess my tastes in discussing things is to talk about pathological cases, explain what something isn't and why it isn't that, because to me if you can't define what something isn't then you can't say what it is.
Otherwise, given the general nature of computation, everything is the "stone soup" as I've written: blog.hostilefork.com/freedom-to-and-freedom-from
 
@HostileFork I think the closest thing we get to 'Why's in Rebol 3 are on the blog: Port Redesign Objectives
But in this instance, I am looking for more of the what.
Was curious about how Rebol 3 got from file/url/whatever to port:
>> source sys/make-port*
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
No information on sys/*make-port (path has no value)
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
sys/make-port*: make function! [[
    {SYS: Called by system on MAKE of PORT! port from a scheme.}
    spec [file! url! block! object! word! port!] "port specification"
    /local name scheme port
][
    case [
        file? spec [
            name: pick [dir file] dir? spec
            spec: join [ref:] spec
        ]
        url? spec [
            spec: repend decode-url spec [to set-word! 'ref spec]
            name: select spec to set-word! 'scheme
        ]
 
@rgchris I was just about to link you to that. :-)
The SYS/blah-blah Rebol functions are basically Rebol functions that are "knownst" to the C code.
 
@HostileFork That's "beknownst", in case you were wondering.
 
1:41 PM
Incidentally, doing source sys/make-port* in Ren-C (albeit not the latest), the newlines/indents are not there.
In the CASE statement at least.
 
@rgchris Hm, yes. Well the newlines are in the consolidated make-boot.r file.
@rgchris Given that I have a ton of not programming things to do today perhaps you can file that as an issue. Also, sent slide deck draft work to your Skype if you want to remark.
@MarkI Knownst is just rare, according to sources. Nothing wrong with using a rare word, especially if understood.
 
Thks.
 
2:03 PM
One of the notable changes in ports (obvious, but useful to spell it out—also too in case I'm wrong and can be corrected) is that there's no longer shortcuts using actors. It used to be in Rebol 2 that read url is shorthand for port: open url | result: copy port | close port | result. In Rebol 3, READ is READ and if you need the actions performed by OPEN/COPY/CLOSE, you have to explicitly state that in the READ actor.
 
Hmmm.
Well I do think that it's one of the more interesting aspects of the scheme to have that be automatic.
It would seem that perhaps, if there's a presence of a READ in the scheme, then that gets first priority, but if it's not there it tries open copy close
 
Additionally READ may need to handle two states---READ URL may need to be handled differently than READ PORT, for example: read http://foo will have different behaviour to location: open http://foo | read location | close location
 
As I understood it, it had some kind of two phase open, where the first open didn't connect. But yeah. If you want to write up a survey of what you think of the ideal as that would be helpful.
 
I don't think the change is necessarily bad—there's perhaps less surprises this way. A lot of what I know about Rebol 2 ports is by learning through trial and error. Building schemes more explicitly may be better in the long run.
 
It seems to me that while OPEN might not CONNECT, that a READ on a not connected port would push it to the connected state.
 
2:09 PM
Put it on the scheme author to determine how READ changes the port state.
 
2:20 PM
posted on August 01, 2016 by rgchris

In viewing the source of the sys/make-port\* function, I noticed a difference in indents/newlines between the output from the source function in the rebolsource binaries to that of Ren/C. Rebolsource binary: Ren/C: Somewhere the new-line state of the source is lost.

 
 
5 hours later…
7:05 PM
Incidentally—per the sys/make-scheme function, when making a scheme, there's a difference when using an object! and block! to specify that port's actors. Blocks are transformed into objects, but not using make object!. Instead each function is built individually and added to a new object spec with the set-words thereby skipping binding—if you have a reference to open in your read function, it'll be global and not the sibling open function.
 
7:25 PM
@HostileFork :) I was simply trying to overdo it for you, sorry if it read as criticism.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:05 PM
@rgchris Yes, the workings of the binding in the schemes is confusing. And as it seems you are already doing, if you see questionable behavior compare R3-Alpha and Ren-C, because my engagement of the schemes and actors and such has been limited to keeping http, tls, and file working...kind of killing off what looked like nonsense here and there if that stuff kept going.
 
9:23 PM
@rgchris You might have seen me mention that my going idea for "actions" is that they are really just functions which delegate via code they find from using TYPE-OF their arguments (maybe first argument, up to them)... and that TYPE-OF always returns something context-like for them to look in to find dispatchers.
Hence READ would be an ordinary function, that could have some prelude code... maybe pre-process the arguments, then could use its own function value (for READ) as an identity to look in a map as the key to see if there was a handler for "that" read. With types being contexts, they could have this map (I've suggested calling it the "verb map") as a field in that context. (Types might also have their minimum and maximum values, etc.)
And though I haven't done it yet, while still threatening it, making ACTION! the new term for the OneFunction in Ren-C is on my mind a lot. It's definitely a shift but if one can learn to say "context" instead of "object" while still accepting "object" as nearly interchangeable, then a similar fate for action can be imagined.
Again, consider foo: function [action [action!]] [...] as opposed to foo: function [function [function!]] [...] (doh!) or foo: function [func [function!]] [...] (drat, that's no good either...)
So "function is an action generator..." would be the lingo, and it could even give the core a mild pass by saying that the misnomer of "function" for something that can have side effects and be influenced by things other than the arguments is a mezzanine issue.
 

« first day (2101 days earlier)      last day (1679 days later) »