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1:28 AM
@HostileFork (Sorry for the long wait HF!) Have you thought about ?1 and ?2 for the "whatever's in <that spot>" purpose?
 
@MarkI Is this related to infix? Really I'm just pondering lookahead when the first argument to an infix operation is quoted. There'd clearly be a contention with i-quote-whats-next i-quote-whats-before, and right now the rule for that was is i-quote-whats-next wins. But these other cases present some odd behaviors.
 
No it is not related to infix, I am just really, really, old, and really, really, slow. I was trying to figure out why you needed a new token type in the referred, why special words like (?<num>) could not be parsed out of the block passed to APPLY.
As far as infix goes, it's a known shift-reduce problem.
 
1:46 AM
I doubt "these other cases" are that well known, as I've never seen things like hard-quoting and soft-quoting distinctions elsewhere, for example.
 
Well, "I'm quoting it because it's not in brackets" is peculiar, but otherwise quoting is choosing to reduce instead of to shift.
 
Being able to feed quoted set-words to the left of an infix (lookback) operation has been interesting. Given how interesting it has been, I wonder if you should be able to quote more on the left than just inert things. (Which is the current formulation)
Not the most important question in the world, just the one I was thinking about.
 
Interesting is a chinese curse dontcha know ...
 
The closest phrase in Chinese is apparently "Better to be a dog in a peaceful time, than to be a human in a chaotic (warring) period." which is a stretch to say that to mean "interesting is a curse".
Visual Studio is ok, but I still can't stand all the backwards infrastructure Windows stands on. Everything is wrong, from the file paths using backslashes to all the layers of antiquated cruft poked in registries and directories... it's the anti-Rebol. No clue why so many Rebol people use it!
("it" being Windows)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:52 AM
@HostileFork I ... did not know that. So the "It's Chinese" is actually data (part of the curse), not metadata (where the curse comes from).
 
@MarkI Well, the only way one can get to the "truth" is to take the Internet's word for it, which by the measure of things may be the actual curse.
 
@HostileFork Elephants are no longer endangered, yah. Peer-review is under some pressure right now, as we in this group are painfully aware.
 
So I was looking at some of the C# new features, and it really is one of those cases where you have to wait for someone to introduce a small language feature to make things easier for your expression. They've got a ?. operator, and I do keep wondering about period as a word character vs. structure character.
 
Isn't that why Rebol has both?
Actually it has all three, period is word and structure and numeric.
 
The TUPLE! type is bad and underperforming as written, but one could imagine it not being terrible and having more general applicability, like PATH!. The conflict with decimal point is unfortunate, would be better if comma were used for that.
 
4:03 AM
By any chance a swift dev in here?
 
IMO one of the language's classic features, multi-purpose while being clearly and simply differentiated. I know you disagree, no need to say it.
@jasbath Sadly we are all quite slow at development.
 
@jasbath Nope. And if you have a question for a specific subject area, it is largely recommended to ask it as a Q&A vs in a chat room.
 
@HostileFork Gotcha
 
@MarkI I'm in favor of clear, multi-purpose, and simple. But tuple doesn't fit those, and in particular it's poor for purposes. I saw Red going to hex color constants, and it's hard to see exactly what good having a special type for IPv4 addresses which has weird limits has.
If you look at semantic versioning, you don't really do that with something maxing out at 255.255.255.255
Semantic versioning examples: "1.0.0-alpha+001, 1.0.0+20130313144700, 1.0.0-beta+exp.sha.5114f85" ... sigh.
 
I see your complaints, but I don't see how generalizing it will get you anything better than paths or vectors, which should be used instead then.
 
4:18 AM
"We don't need paths like a/b/c, all we need is path [a b c]. Don't need group, just group [a b c]..."
 
And I'm working on an IPv6 proposal, so don't rule that out totally yet. Or maybe me saying that was its death knell :(
@HostileFork Ha ha. But you have to agree that changing the slashes to dots in a path doesn't get you much.
 
Path generality with 1.0.0/alpha/1 would help at least a little there.
It gives you another tinkertoy.
 
It gives you the same tinkertoy is what I am saying!
 
I was wondering what the evaluator behavior difference of a.b.c might be different from a/b/c. Even if they were identical, people could use them to distinguish object member selection from refinements. a.b/c instead of a/b/c
 
Oh. Then I don't know what you mean. Sorry.
I suppose you could even go "dots are to slashes in path types as brackets are to parentheses in block types" if you wanted ...
 
4:25 AM
Well, tuple is no good and so what else is new...sigh. Just looking at some C# and thinking about the place of dot, it seems a shame for a.b.12 to not be structural, and there is at least historical precedent for it, and an existing implementation for a type that can act like a/b/12 and store anything.
The idea of 1.2 having evaluator behavior is kind of interesting, to generate a floating point number. This would hint that tuples were evaluator active, a historical property they didn't have where 1.2.3 was passed inertly. Meh, it's the un-fun part of this weird little design space...
 
@HostileFork What, that there are previous behaviours that you have to justify changing? :)
Anyways, ttyl HF, I'm off to fight equations, take care now ...
 
@MarkI Yup, well I'm mostly on break for a while, just messing with setting up more stuff on the laptop today so doing some visual studio installation and building things
Going to try and think out the big picture of objects and user defined types when I have time to think and sketch.
 
 
6 hours later…
pep
11:08 AM
hello
I've reading ren github and I have a doubt, what's the purpose of ren? it seems to me rebol with a new name
 
11:26 AM
Ren was supposed to be the data interchange format and possible way of how to popularise Rebol/Red languages. Look at JSON, the author acknowledges, that it was highly inspired in Rebol ...
 
12:01 PM
@pep I've made the same point. The first argument in favour of Ren is that Rebol isn't formally specified—the only definitive reference is a relatively opaque implementation in C (although there is now Red's parser which while a little more approachable diverges where the author sees fit). The second argument is that Ren over Rebol(/Red) is designed as an easy-to-implement data exchange format, not a programming language.
The second point is the part I don't agree with—the essence of Rebol for me is that it's a data exchange format that can be used as a programming language and that Ren should be designed with that in mind (I agree that Ren should exist specifically to address the first argument).
I've had one go to formalize Rebol (dates and all), though as @MarkI has done the same using the C sources and has a large BNF(?) file, I don't think I quite came close (but I still think it's usable, albeit some fixes needed).
 
12:24 PM
@pep If you are asking about Ren-C, there's notes on the topic. Why Ren-C
 
1:16 PM
More generally the point was to figure out what the C++ and C interfaces to embedding a Rebol-or-Red-like-thing might look like, in a way that a runtime could be swapped in interchangeably. Ren-Cpp is supposed to be runtime-agnostic, but Rebol was written in C and more mature than Red so it was easier to experiment with.
What it became is a research platform for solving the hard problems in the language. Most of the people historically interested in those hard problems have since gone on to other things. Those who thought Rebol2 was more-or-less-good-enough as a language (in the 80/20 rule sense) think it would be fine to just have a faster version that maybe ran on Android, and feel fine with Red.
Red's major new design points are Red/System and trying to enhance the GUI. I've predicted a lukewarm response to the GUI narrative, especially if it's not doing native Android--which, could, still be a game changer, but schedule-wise it's hard to predict when that happens.
In any case, the model of binding and evaluation and how functions work in Red itself is much the same as Rebol2, while Ren-C has significant redesign. That redesign is the major point of today's Ren-C, though there's a lot to tell in the API story also. Whether this is taken back to the "official" Rebol or not is unknown, but if the primary code developers for Rebol use Ren-C then the "de-facto" Rebol would use it.
 
 
2 hours later…
3:32 PM
@rgchris Speaking of Ren, do you feel, when all things are accounted for, that <{!-- some HTML here --}> is fair, if you get multi-line tags out of the deal, and the likes of <!-- and --> are retaken as Rebol WORD!s?
From where I stand, it is a very fair compromise.
The main point being I don't want to see > going solo as a terminator, some number of lines down from where the tag started.
By necessity, the rule is asymmetrical w.r.t. quotes. <"foo"> is a tag with the actual literal content "foo", quotes included.
 
3:47 PM
We do have a bit of a philosophy issue, I guess, how taggy a WORD! can look. In Haskell they are big on operators looking like <*> and such, and we might ask about the fate of <> (which @MarkI says "doesn't look taggy to him") or <!>.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:19 PM
@HostileFork The current proposal allows words that contain angles to be composed of characters from "<-+|=~>". I am not necessarily against appending "*" or "!" to this, although they both do break my informal "vertically semi-symmetric grapheme" restriction.
The intent being to restrict the allowable characters to arrow-like compositors, but asterisk and exclamation are not too far off in that regard.
Sadly, I do have to say I would vote against the <{arbitrary stuff}> tag delimitation idea.
It breaks space significance, for example, in the code [{b}<{a}], for one thing.
Does Haskell allow operators to really look like tags, like <a>? I would hope not ...
 
7:06 PM
What happened to rebol.com - I cannot access it (I'm glad that webarchive works).
 
pep
7:41 PM
I'm talking about Ren in this github repository github.com/humanistic/REN
HostileFork, so the point of REN is to embed rebol in C in a similar way like tcl does, or even to convert rebol in a library for C developers such as lua, tcl or even guile? If that's the point I find it interesting but I'm more interested now in using rebol as a main language just like python, ruby or perl
 
8:32 PM
@pep Yes, the idea was a "wall of readers/writers" a la json.org for various languges. But, an idea without a team of motivated implementers to do it, and no obvious market of users.
It's nice in principle, but when you're looking for a standard, you need a standard. Rebol's notation still has a lot of edge cases and it's not clear that the choices that have been made are the best.
@DarekNędza Perhaps whatever went wrong with it, Carl will have time to fix it over the weekend.
35
A: What characters are permitted for haskell operators?

RiccardoFrom the haskell report, this is the syntax for allowed symbols: special -> ( | ) | , | ; | [ | ] | `| { | } symbol -> ascSymbol | uniSymbol<special | _ | : | " | '> ascSymbol -> ! | # | $ | % | & | * | + | . | / | < | = | > | ? | @ \ | ^ | | | - | ~ uniSymbol -> ...

 
 
3 hours later…
11:17 PM
@HostileFork Thanks, though I was hoping for a discussion on the topic.
Interestingly, your link is also yet another example of formalism gone wrong. Note the occurrence of | | |, so much for being parseable.
 
@MarkI Discussion point: I think there should not be so much pressure on DO to be all things to all people. Being able to make <*> and have it be a TAG!, or <> and have it be a TAG!, still opens up a lot of dialect usage. MATH can say <> is not equal if you want it to. MATH could also say that (a) (b) implicitly multiplies them.
 
This old chestnut is your discussion choice my friend? That somehow comparison for equality does not occur in every domain?
 
The discussion point is that being able to make useful notational symbols is a higher priority than which category they're in, because as said elsewhere, "programming in Rebol isn't really about programming in Rebol"
 
Cop-out.
Besides, all dialects are, have to be, Rebol/Ren.
This is the dream, this is the goal, the one ring to bind them all.
You yourself have said "saying it can be done in a dialect of your own design is a cop-out".
 
No...reasoned point. Just because Haskell's "main and only dialect" has <*> as an operator--and that's kind of cool (I think it is)--doesn't mean that Rebol's "main and not only dialect" necessarily needs to be able to process it in the same way.
I don't know exactly what you're quoting with that.
I say more generally that writing your own parser instead of making LOADable syntax is a cop-out
My main line is Rebol doesn't have enough dialects--too little is known in terms of guidance on building them--and people write way too much DO code directly.
 
11:28 PM
@HostileFork You were the one doing the deriding, suggesting that "we don't need groups, we've got group [a b c]" is a laughable suggestion.
@HostileFork Totally agreed on that one.
 
@MarkI That's a fairly remote connection. It seems more like saying (foo baz bar) evaluates the group, while (:foo baz bar) would not evaluate it, due to a slight difference in formation.
If we're still talking on <*> being a word vs. a tag.
I say it's best as a tag, and that limits its powers in the default evaluator but only there. In fact, I'm suggesting it being able to be bound... the way ISSUE! can be today.
Inert in the evaluator but available for other processing. I do not know how this would work or if it would be contentious with binding to *, or with to-word "<*>", etc. or if bindings would encode a type.
That would be a bit odd, as you could set <*> 10 and set '* 20 and have them look up differently, but it's technically possible. Just that today set-words, words, lit-words, issues, and refinements all bind independently of type--by design.
 

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