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12:19 AM
I really do believe that Ren-C is about to get a lot more exciting, as it moves to serving its original purpose. People may have noticed how quickly Ren Garden development was going, and wonder why I would have stopped instead of forging ahead with "crowd pleasing" GUI features...but as I think most understand, I didn't want to build on shaky foundations.
And while I have criticized Red for not paying attention to the things that gave me pause, it is in a sense good that they pursue pleasing the existing base. Those are the people who weren't bothered by the things that bothered me as "too shaky" but willing to work around it. If it were only up to me, working through in my process, there'd be even fewer who stuck around in "the movement" to the extent it shares goals.
But I think the overall result is going to be stronger for having Ren-C. And people will have to admit that.
Not sure when, maybe some would admit it today. :-)
@giuliolunati I want the new Ren-C lib to use something adapted from earl's build script instead of makefiles. Do you have a copy of it (build.reb)?
I will commit it into the make directory... so we have a copy in common to work with.
 
@HostileFork no, sorry...
 
@giuliolunati So I think you saw, where I said, that I think emscripten should be the new flagship main console target for Ren-C. Try to have the best emscripten terminal we can. Then, Ren Garden will be the next step up.
@giuliolunati So basically, not put a lot of effort into the UNIX/Windows console APIs. But I think we can use linenoise. Have you built and tried that? Does it "please you" on your busybox version, how it acts?
The sample is very easy to build and try, and so I think we should wire that up to Ren-C
And forget about the current thing. Though poor @ShixinZeng will be stuck with it for a while, probably. :-)
 
@HostileFork Not yet. Tx for the link, I will try it.
@HostileFork I like emscripten idea, but js async behaviour is a big problem for IO...
 
12:36 AM
@giuliolunati I remember that...I forget, does emscripten support threads?
 
It doesn't
 
This says it does, via web workers
If they can support threads, then we could do it.
 
tried web workers, but they are totally isolated from UI
 
@giuliolunati Then wouldn't you just be doing it backwards? It would be the evaluator thread that is the web worker.
So main UI is just sitting in a wait state, to see if the worker wants an input, or if it finishes.
 
but worker can't request input from UI.
 
12:41 AM
I don't know what kind of hackery you use with that, I hate web tech :-) but the UI loop could at worst have a polling timer loop. Every so many microseconds look to see if the web worker is done (output result) or needs input (ask for it)
So worker has no communication via shared state or signaling, only can give back a result? e.g. why you wanted continuations?
 
Absolutely.
 
@giuliolunati Where there's a will there's a way, can the web worker make http requests?
Basically you need to tunnel out, and anything that can tunnel out can be used
Anything the web worker can do besides return a result that affects a state the UI can read
(You can tell I've been doing this stuff a long time, eh? :-P)
 
@HostileFork another possible tutorial/try-rebol approach - jupyter.org - This is simliar to Mathematica style workbooks. The Jupyter framework allows 'kernels' for different languages and the workbook format for tutorials is quite nice
 
@johnk I've always thought those kinds of things have a lot of potential (I was an early user of MathCAD)... but they always wind up feeling daunting, UI-wise, for the new user...and have never gotten super popular. I think, I want a hold-your hand blinking cursor tutorial with a blank slate, as opposed to "wall of already written code"
Not necessarily because it's the best in some absolute sense, but because of the psychological angle.
 
'Nite!
 
12:52 AM
So right now, jumping into the same camp as Try Haskell and Try Clojure is seeming the idea...
@giuliolunati Nite, but let's talk more emscripten as that's kind of first order of business for library-factored Ren-C
So I want to solve any blocks to it--sorry for not necessarily being all that helpful before, I was working on other things. :-)
@johnk I know I repeat myself a lot, but sometimes you have to see how often you repeat yourself in order to realize what your main themes or good ideas are vs. stuff you just thought once... and the other big web target I want is parse + debugger, a la regex101.com
So I want PARSE you can step through in the debugger, in the browser, like that.
 
@HostileFork sure! I'm strongly interested in that thing :-)
 
Basically take what @Brett did with his parse debugger, and browser it up. So anyone can paste their data in a box, paste their rules, and step through if they need to...running the engine in the user's browser, so any infinite loops or whatever they write is their problem.
I think such a tool would win friends quickly--it's funny reading the jupyter Haskell workbook and noticing they give a parse example, and just how inconvenient haskell's parse is by comparison. It's better if you need industrial strength, but you don't always...and look at RegEx for proof of it.
 
@HostileFork that would be excellent. I am sure @brett already has some great ideas on how that would work
the regex101 site is very nicely done
 
@johnk It is, it is. Imagine such talent applied to Rebol...
In fact, I would perhaps even suggest contacting them and asking about it. Though it's not open source, only uses github for issue tracking...so I don't know what sort of mindset the author comes from.
 
1:20 AM
PRINT changes on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
#Ren-C >> print [ {Line One} {Line Two} ] Line One Line Two >> print [{a} {b} {c}] a b c #R3-Alpha >> print [ {Line One} {Lin...
✍ 1 comment
@johnk ^-- ravings of a madman...or genius? Or both? :-) I think I like this one, although I do admit it's "new" and so it bumps one's head a little.
There's no questioning that what it does to the source allows one to make it "more streamlined" and "beautiful". It's leverage, but at a cost, that the dialect is more subtle.
This is the opposite direction I had, which embraces PRINT as being a tool geared toward scrapping boilerplate and regimentation...where I was saying that for instance, GROUP!s would be required to do function calls. This goes deeper into the PRINT philosophy as it was, that it's trying to "essentialize" the notation, less junk.
 
1:53 AM
@HostileFork again, I can see both sides to the story. I do seem to have a lot of code with newline scattered randomly around
In terms of common use cases it breaks print [ "thing:" thing-value ]
 
@johnk What breaks about that?
thing-value is not a literal string.
It breaks print ["thing:" "hi I'm the thing"]
 
Maybe I misunderstood. Would that not print as thing:^/thing-value?
 
No, it only does the newline if it's sequential literals.
The argument being, why did you do that, otherwise.
 
ok. that makes sense
Yes, I like it
 
As I say, it's a behavior and all behaviors make things a little more wily than they are without behavior. This is what @pekr was saying, about how auto spacing throws a wrench into it if you want something "regimented"
You can subvert it with print ["thing:" ("hi I'm the thing")]
But again, we are wondering, why did you write that in the first place.
In character-based programming, there's only so much space to slice up, and I think that when you have print [{a b}] available that the benefits to having print [{a} {b}] mean something different are high, and you do a better service to your readers if you break those lines in the source--but we do not want to read newline state as "data"
So, it's at your option to break the lines. I suggest you should. You don't have to.
I think PRINT/ONLY needs to suppress newlines, spacing, and this sequential string newline behavior.
Basically /ONLY says "I don't want your behaviors", which is what it means for other things.
A "lint" like utility could notice sequential string literals without a newline and go "hey, did you mean to do that?"
Or even, it could error if the newline flag weren't set. :-/ That's not quite as bad as interpreting the newline as data, though still unsavory.
@rgchris ^-- see above Trello card, and, that I am backing off the | as newline. It is too useful as "barrier" in the more general sense, but if you want to, you can use it pointing out where newlines are--if you think that communicative.
 
2:56 AM
I wonder if it's time to thread the "BOX" term into the rebol source. e.g. BOX_INTEGER isntead of SET_INTEGER.
 
3:16 AM
posted on June 23, 2016 by qtxie

FEAT: radius of CIRCLE draw command accept float! value now by qtxie

 
4:06 AM
Here's another puzzle. CASE can get more efficient if it specifically recognizes BLOCK!, e.g. case [1 > 2 [print "hi"]] doesn't need to call into the evaluator for that block, but it does evaluate in the general case... so block: [print "hi"] | case [1 > 2 block] will evalaute...but if that's true, then with infix you could say something like case [1 > 2 [foo] + [bar]] and expect the infix to kick in, to do whatever it would do to blocks.
So we might ask if the "infix exceptionalism" on blocks warrants that you be forced to use a GROUP! there, e.g. case [1 > 2 ([foo] + [bar])]
In a sense, I almost feel like that's a good thing, because it's kind of not clear otherwise...e.g. people tend to read cases more as switch-like than anything, so if you are being weird you should be the one bearing the cost...so CASE can be more efficient in general.
But that would be different from if 1 > 2 [foo] + [bar], for instance, if + happened to have a behavior for blocks.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:22 AM
posted on June 23, 2016 by greggirwin

Added native SIGN? func. by greggirwin

 
 
1 hour later…
6:49 AM
posted on June 23, 2016 by greggirwin

Tests by greggirwin

 
7:20 AM
posted on June 23, 2016 by greggirwin

Edited directly in github

 
 
5 hours later…
12:12 PM
@HostileFork Just because?
 
@MarkI Red is using "box" a lot in their API, and "set" is very vague. Especially given that SET has a particular meaning in the language, about setting variables.
 
12:29 PM
@HostileFork plz try read/lines some-txt-file -- crash for me :-|
 
@giuliolunati Hmm...it's working for me :-/ Can you dig a little bit and get an issue posted with a stack and such?
 
Ok, thx!
 
@HostileFork SET_INTEGER() calls VAL_SET() to set an integer value. It doesn't box anything. Are you saying it is not called when you execute [a: 7]?
 
@MarkI In the terminology, "boxing" is the distinction between a raw REBINT (or REBI64) and one that has a "box" around it (e.g. a header, etc). So SET_INTEGER() is doing what is called "boxing" that integer, in the vernacular. The term is common in language implementations that draw this distinction...though usually because they talk about both worlds, trying to find compilation opportunities to use unboxed forms as often as they can.
 
12:44 PM
Sounds Java-ish, and therefore horribly, horribly wrong :)
 
@Brett I fixed that help issue, it was trivial...though in doing the fixing, I went ahead and started doing more pushing on PRINT. :-/ That really needs to get tightened up and get some answers...so I've pushed some more features: sequential string literals making newlines, the delimiters kind of work now, then /ONLY and /QUOTE and /EVAL
 
@HostileFork Great. Re testing Help. A simplistic approach for testing Help might be to use Echo to capture the output and test that. Emitting newlines between literals seems like a far more useful thing than spaces (for print).
 
@Brett The performance of HELP is not paramount, so I've always thought that if it went through a "structure" phase that got converted to text, that would be useful.
It would probably be enough to test the structures built
Assuming a sufficiently trivial structure-to-text transformation
I need to go ahead and add return types and return documentation, I actually laid out all the implementation for it but just haven't gotten around to the help for it! :-)
 
Hah. Btw, spec-of is not working yet either (I think).
Making a help structure would be effectively redesigning help, not a bad thing. I haven't thought about it though.
 
Ren Garden would prefer structure to text
 
12:53 PM
Is that a principal somewhere, always return a structure and if necessary linearise for human consumption :-)
 
@Brett It's one of those things that worked briefly :-) but anyway, just making sure things are in their right place. I want to pull a lot of things like the "typespecs" out to meta objects as well, and simplify the bootstrap
 
On that principle, print called by help is a premature optimisation. :)
 
@Brett Well, Rebol stuff is supposed to be tolerable even as structure
So perhaps if it isn't, there's a mistake somewhere.
 
@HostileFork On the parse debugging. The thing I did relied on "recording" the parse and allowing the user to "play it back a step at a time". To handle block mode I mold the block and load/index them for cursor positions. So the limitation there was that it didn't handle input modifications. I hope Ren-c can ultimately bypass the various issues having better access to the underlying info.
Actually I just recorded rule successes and fails. Way more simplistic than what you'll be able to achieve.
 
It should give everything step by step, however the unfortunate bit--as I have lamented in putting aside the Rebol REPL written in REPL, is that doing single stepping and such when you've got two programs running in the same language stomping on the stack space... it's bad.
Some languages do it anyway, but I decided I didn't like it, so I want "isolates" like V8 has
This means that the parse debugger would not be written in Rebol itself, for the near term. :-/ It could have parts of it written in Rebol, however, as Ren-Cpp makes it easy to thread in and out.
 
 
5 hours later…
5:56 PM
Classic "let's build a new flat tire": in HTML tags, tag names and attribute names are case-insensitive, but only if they are ASCII.
 
6:27 PM
posted on June 23, 2016 by giuliolunati

Commit: 983c494 Build: Android5 ARM (OS_ID=0.13.2) Error message: error.txt

 
6:55 PM
I am hoping nobody will object to changing the behaviour of unseparated comments. Does anyone ever use ';' without a leading blank or tab?
Erm, except at the beginning of the line of course, I am counting that as a "separated" comment.
 
 
3 hours later…
10:18 PM
@MarkI Someone once suggested it was a feature, e.g. you could semicolon terminate your lines if you thought it looked good. x: 10; // You can write this if you like.
 
10:38 PM
It could (maybe) make it possible to load code written for other languages that were semicolon terminated but which just happened to be loadable Rebol otherwise.
 
11:13 PM
I hate to spend time on optimizations while there are still outstanding problems, e.g. whatever I'm going to call the sequel to specific binding... (projected binding? virtual binding?) But if things are not considered somewhat carefully, you end up designing something that is intrinsically un-optmiz-able
And there is something that I wonder if, in our modern notions of optimization, is getting lost...namely, optimizing for essential complexity--as opposed to optimizing for the hardware and caching systems we happen to have in front of us today--itself something of a maze emergent from how our machines got laid out by economics and whims of history.
In other words, optimizing the program at a level that you're making it the fewest number of bookkeeping steps if it were you--the human computer--trying to do it yourself on paper.
 
Inside the new cafe #Rebol on @CLEPublicSquare https://t.co/b8zk8lULEc
 
11:46 PM
RT @chip1057: Inside the new cafe #Rebol on @CLEPublicSquare https://t.co/b8zk8lULEc
 

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