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12:59 AM
@GrahamChiu Yes, Joe wanted to try to leave all options open, i.e., to make Rebol respectable for the MIT approach (see: Worse is Better). Although he turned out to be a bad fit for RT, by all accounts he is a brilliant mind and a semi-legend-- the kind of person that everyone has a story about.
@HostileFork Thanks for the explanation. Weird how many things like that I've become used to. Print rejoin is common in my scripts.
 
1:32 AM
@Edoc I don't get used to things if they feel wrong, they just constantly feel wrong. :-/ The name REJOIN bothered me, and its handling of NONE! bothered me because I frequently found myself writing rejoin ["foo" either condition ["baz"] [] "bar"] to avoid getting the "none"...
>> rejoin ["foo" if 1 > 2 ["baz"] "bar"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "foononebar"
 
So first I protested that a NONE! value should be considered an opt-out, and then this started leading to other questions like why wasn't it opting out of COMPOSE as well...but then the defense of NONE! as a placeholder value came up. It has been a long winding path, but eventually the idea that a failed IF should return an UNSET! was the actual answer...with rippling consequences, ultimately the consequence of eliminating UNSET! entirely as a datatype.
 
1:58 AM
@rgchris Emscripten does work it seems, but has a similar problem as I was explaining to @GrahamChiu about the issue with calling Rebol as a DLL through FFI. Both FFI from a non-Rebol language and a JavaScript function signature are narrow "pipes" through which to speak to Rebol.
The easiest interface is "string in, string out"...and I note that in C even that's a little hard, because an arbitrary-sized C string has to be freed by somebody. So the return result from an FFI call has to use some allocator and then you have to have an FFI call for freeing it. JavaScript has a standard string type, so returning a string to JavaScript is easier...and it will be GC'd when not used anymore.
Both a DLL and an emscripten build can have the Rebol instance accrue state. So unlike the TryRebol site, it can remember things across calls. R3-Alpha did not have the ability to have multiple user contexts, but Ren-C can...so you can (sort of) have multiple independent sessions that you open and close. Think of how tabs worked in Ren Garden. They're not concurrent, but neither is JavaScript.
 
2:46 AM
So...I think it's a mistake for something as important as true and false literals to be saddled with the syntax #[true] and #[false]. They're met early on and not a good example of something that requires a bracketed "construction syntax". Datatypes are the same.
I also think that Rebol has skewed its linguistic course a bit in favor of datatypes that can arguably be considered obscure. For instance, taking $ for currency yields a domain specific type which a lot of programs won't use. I have personally never written anything using the currency type, and have only vaguely wondered if I might abuse it for numbered parameters, e.g. $1 and $2 etc...so it has some use.
So what if $true and $false were the literals for LOGIC!? As weird divisions of lexical space in Rebol go, it's not that weird.
Perhaps plain datatypes could get on board as well, so for instance $uri! could be the literal form of URL! and URN! and LINK!...for instance.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:11 AM
@HostileFork Isn't money a floating point datatype in disguise
 
@GrahamChiu Supposedly a not-quite-fixed-point one, though I don't have non-money math applications requiring what it does, I don't think. For that matter, I don't have many programs that do non-integer math at all, because it's not the kind of thing I usually think about. I'd have to look more into what it was for.
 
I think that's why @earl complained when we removed the $ when we had $ / $
so it was restored ...
because it was a precision thing
 
Yes
 
I think if we could load multiple instances of ren via FFI which had access to shared memory it would bring a lot of new capabilities to us.
We could have our own tuple space with tasks being carried out by the multiple instances
 
6:29 AM
What is the state of WebAssembly project? Is that alrady supported by major browsers?
 
6:53 AM
@GrahamChiu Money is BCD
 
 
7 hours later…
1:51 PM
@rebolek That turns out not to be the case. The phrase binary-coded decimal (BCD) means encoding each decimal digit separately. Money encodes all 26 decimal digits at once, into 87 binary bits, so it is more correctly termed a "scaled binary" representation, as is eventually mentioned on the wiki page to which you refer.
Note that it is clearly not a floating-point format:
>> same? $1 $1.0
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
And money is great for large integer math @HostileFork, it gives you 87-bit integers.
 
@MarkI OK, sorry for the confusion in terminology :)
 
No worries, I needed that to be clarified for me as well!
 
2:15 PM
@MarkI Please if you can review the 3 issue posts and leave any comments. I feel that basically in there are "the answers" to things that used to be under debate. If I feel any real uncertainties about the mentioned things, I wrote them down.
 
2:53 PM
And, money is also BUSTED. Why am I not surprised, as soon as I look closely at anything in this language it's always busted:
>> $150000000000000000000000000 - $1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== $149999999999999999999999999
 
>> $160000000000000000000000000 - $1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== $5257495089327465637609471
 
 
2 hours later…
5:00 PM
@GrahamChiu Um ... why exactly? FIND distinguishes that case. SELECT doesn't, so don't use SELECT if nones can occur in your data.
FWIW I also have orthogonality concerns if there exist values that cannot be put into blocks. And yes @HostileFork I will add some comments for you.
So in essence, the NONE problem that is "upsetting" @GrahamChiu and @HostileFork is unavoidable in any all-values-are-first-class language.
 
5:48 PM
posted on May 22, 2016 by greggirwin

There is some refactoring that could be done in %natives.reds and condensing the %crypto.reds CRC/MD5/SHA* funcs to take an alg type arg.

 
 
2 hours later…
7:22 PM
I get a little fed up with these "Windows only" upgrades.
 
7:47 PM
Me not, who needs Linix anyway? :-)
Jokes aside - you should read the whole discussion - Doc clearly requested Gregg checks the API on other platforms too. All implemented features seem to be available on multiple platforms ...
So, other OSes will get it too, justt later. Than does not mean never ...
Also - Gregg's the author. There is nothing wrong if he needs it for Windows first ...
 
@MarkI If something isn't a value, it can't be put into blocks. This is a problem with a rather large category of things that are not values. A good, working, bignum! based on well-vetted open source code can't be put into blocks either.
Whenever you deal with something in the category of things that can't be put into blocks, you do what you have to...which is use a substitute.
 
8:18 PM
reduce is like any other operation which does some kind of processing and wants to return an array of results, where some of those results cannot be directly represented in Rebol. The argument that if the processing in question is DO, and that historically it could represent "no value" in a "value", presents a very narrow application of this problem...and colored by what is essentially a broken design point, where "no value" is represented by "value"
 
 
2 hours later…
10:40 PM
World One:
As far as Rebol the language is concerned, things with no value do not exist.
Even unset variables have a value, namely, UNSET.
Running unknown code can only throw an error; if it doesn't, it returns a value.
World Two:
As far as Rebol the system as perceived by the user is concerned, things with no value do not occur.
Which is why UNSET by default barfs in DO, to help the user change something from its erroneous UNSET value to the correct (and hence, likely not UNSET) one.
This is somewhat tunable -- and right now it is mostly tuned down, that is, lots of things that should return UNSET currently return NONE and don't cause barfage.
Terrifying Truth:
As far as Rebol the environment in which programs are built is concerned, World One and World Two must somehow be bridged together.
How to externally present to the user in World Two the things of no value that have been asked for, and how internally to represent the concept of failing to exist as a value in World One.
 
I maintain that these two worlds are distinct, and should stay so.
 
Hereinafter please find some statements that lead me to conclude a VOID type in core Rebol might be looked at as both unnecessary and unnecessarily complexifying (complicatory? complicative?).
1) NONE does not represent "no value".
It is a value that FIND returns meaning "no value was found", chosen for its conditional behaviour and to read better than FALSE when shown as a direct result.
2) NONE and UNSET are two values, the latter of which sometimes triggers DO down an error branch and can be treated specially by the REPL.
Things are nicely trivial if those two represent the gamut of what "no appropriate Rebol value exists" can ever intend.
Things, as you have so aptly shown @HostileFork, are much less trivial if you allow a third contestant, the oft-requested NIL or VOID, into the arena.
3) Describing some event as "meaning-free" and then prescribing some meaningful behaviour around its occurrence, detection, or representation, is formally impossible.
As my Philosophy Prof (Hi Don!) was wont to say, "What can't be said, can't be said, and you can't whistle it either."
So either you have meaning, in which case you have a value or at least an idea of its representation, or you don't, in which case you have no choice but to shut up :).
A dialect similar to DO wherein a new kind of value can be returned for the evaluator to ignore can certainly be imagined, and even created and tested.
But Rebol would lose essential simplicity if given this feature in the core.
4) See this answer to a Haskell question for more cogent reasoning agreeing with this position.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:53 PM
Just a random question. Is memory wiped before being garbage collected and returned to general pool?
 
@GrahamChiu Not by default, no. Before Rebol was ever instrumented with address sanitizer or valgrind, it had internal options to put garbage in the memory...or to never actually release the memory.
 

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