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12:02 AM
@Freezerburn I am hoping to release a heavily fixed repo shortly, but as you can see some announcements have been made. Then a few wires crossed in terms of ire between Red and me, which isn't exactly new, but I'm just grumpy about it in general.
Trying to regroup my grump and not let this all go to my head. Not as easy as it should be.
For current basis, look to rebolsource: github.com/rebolsource/r3
Up until the recent distraction, we were running along nicely toward retaking rebol/rebol and making it have all current patches and a proper issue database.
We should get back on track. I should be less of an emo.
 
12:21 AM
@HostileFork Yeah I saw the stuff from earlier. Part of why I'm trying to figure out which code I should be reading. There seem to be a few different code bases. Also tryign to figure out if I should be learning R3 or R2 (currently using mostly R2 because it seems more complete as a downloadable binary)
 
@Freezerburn Rebol2 is not going to be open sourced. It probably should have been what was open sourced. But, moving forward, if you use Rebol2 no one can fix bugs that bug you...
 
@HostileFork I honestly thought it was. Guess I was reading the various things wrong
 
@HostileFork Howdy.
 
I haven't hit any bugs yet though, still in the "learning what the heck is going on" phase
Though I'm definitely starting to come up with some interesting ideas for things
 
@iceflow19 Yo. Depressed fork, trying to feel better.
@Freezerburn Publish early, publish often... (do as I say, not as I do)
 
12:28 AM
@Freezerburn For the most part while there is implementation differences, and different functionality in places, the general methodology that you go about solving problems is still the same between them. Most foundational concepts are shared between them as well.
 
@iceflow19 Fair enough. Though R3 has tasks, while R2 does not. So point in 3's favor
 
@Freezerburn No, there's no safe tasking in Rebol3. That's not why.
 
@Freezerburn Tasks aren't implemented, they're only stubbed out.
 
Red has some more aware ideas about parallelism.
If you're interested in parallelism, and if you're interested in performance, Red will go there first.
 
@HostileFork Coming down off the emotion roller coaster eh?
 
12:30 AM
@iceflow19 A little. Let's just hope they don't do anything else to irritate me.
If they don't do anything else, then, yeah I'll be fine in a few.
If they do, I'll push more buttons and get angrier.
 
@HostileFork Fair enough.
 
There are many other things that need to be taken care of before multithreading. Ren/C is a bit of a restart.
 
I have a whole website that could be turned from "Here's why Red is interesting" into "Top 10 reasons you shouldn't use Red"
I think it would be a waste of my time to do it
And... counterproductive for everyone involved
And... I want Red to succeed, so it would be bad for me too
 
@HostileFork I see your starting to wisen up. Pick your battle's don't let the opponent pick for you.
 
Well there shouldn't be opponents, I think this is a fairly squared up domain and the territory is marked reasonably.
We are all the same team, so I just get angry when control issues come to the surface so quickly.
Anyway, I'm relaxin' so let's get back to the code
 
12:35 AM
@HostileFork It's a saying. Of course I know we're all on the same team :)
 
@iceflow19 Did you see that whole thing about the setjmp/longjmp? I thought address sanitizer was (as I said) punking me. It wasn't.
setjmp is way, way constrained:
3
A: Can addresses of unmodified locals wind up corrupted in setjmp/longjmp?

AnTIs there a reason the helper call is "embedded" into the controlling expression of if through ?: operator? This is actually a violation of the language requirements that says 7.13.1.1 The setjmp macro 4 An invocation of the setjmp macro shall appear only in one of the following context...

 
@Freezerburn It might be strange to phrase it like this, but in some ways Rebol has a certain type of Zen. It somewhat requires that a person meditate on what is programming.
 
I was doing an unrelated search and a video about how everyone who programs is crazy came up, and you have to be insane to get into all of this in the first place... there must be something wrong with you. :-)
 
lol
 
Correlation does not imply causality.
 
12:41 AM
@iceflow19 Kinda sounds about right. I like the of idea of thinking about what programming really is, because as it stands currently programming kinda sucks
@HostileFork You kinda do need to be insane to get into programming. It's quite possibly the worst career, because it's insanity
Anything can break at any time for almost any of 100 reasons. Good luck finding out why
(well, 100 is probably an underestimate)
My day job is working on a project that absolutely cannot ever fail... and the build system alone can have any of something like 10 reasons on any given day why the project might not work. Some of them from sub-projects that probably should have nothing to do with the main project
Anything that brings about some kind of new kind of correctness or new way of thinking that helps tame the madness is an extraordinarily good thing
3
 
@Freezerburn As I said before, you're in the right place.
 
Or something that even JUST WORKS without having to find 20 disparate systems all working against you. (I'm looking at you OCaml/Haskell)
 
Modulo... um, the insanity bit.
I like Haskell.
It's just not how I want to be forced to think all the time.
 
Yeah, feels that way. <500KB executable that works on its own with no installation, no complex wrangling... it's one of the few breaths of fresh air that helps keep me going as a programmer (minus, you know, the utter joy of creating things and the fact that I need to eat)
 
@HostileFork I've never used SJ/LJ really. While I have done maintenance on some pretty archaic codebases before (like idk a Distributed Control System designed for Unix and then ported to Windows), never had to really mess with it. I think I missed what fun you were having with it.
 
12:46 AM
I like Haskell too. But it brings a new suffering into wrangling libraries
 
@iceflow19 Showed you what I was building when I was your age, I believe... :-P
 
(also I don't understand it well enough to do ANYTHING with it...)
 
:-)
 
I love the old graphics and sounds. Lightsaber sound while hand pushes text onto screen? Check
 
12:49 AM
It's funny how seeing a CRT is so old school now
 
I know right?
geez, just the instant rename refactoring built into the language itself sounds so nice. Have to get complicated, huge IDEs to support that kind of functionality in most things. Why were there so many good ideas from so long ago that were supplanted by junk?
 
@Freezerburn I feel your pain oh so much. I did product builds at my last place. Three - Four hour builds, complex non automated steps, almost a 10GB code base, 149 binaries, at the beginning all serialized building because of bad dependency management, 1 of a bazillion reasons the code could break.
 
@iceflow19 Geez. I don't think my work is quite THAT bad, but it's definitely special in its own ways
 
@Freezerburn The market decides, and the market is myopic.
 
At least we have some ability to do parallel builds. Though I'm not sure how much I trust it because it can randomly decide to not build sub-projects
@HostileFork Sadly. :(
Have ya'll seen the new language that the Lighttable guys are working on?
 
12:54 AM
@Freezerburn The academics also had a hand in it.
 
@iceflow19 In what way?
@HostileFork This video makes me so sad, because we don't have things like that now :(
 
@Freezerburn They exist, they're just proprietary.
 
Back in the day, alot of programming leaned towards the mathematical end of things. Usability wasn't even on the radar. Mathematically oriented languages and later concepts like OOP where also easier to write papers on.
 
@HostileFork Fair enough I suppose
 
@Freezerburn Do you think they make Pixar movies with Blender? Get real.
 
12:58 AM
@HostileFork Not sure how that statement follows? Are you saying people like Pixar have custom tools that are similar to what was being demonstrated? I know they don't use Blender, and that they generally have some sort of complex custom tools they use to do all the fancy animations/lighting
 
@Freezerburn Just saying that tools can exist and be either costly or unavailable on the market at any cost...and to say "we don't have..." may be a category error. Who's we?
 
@Freezerburn People don't realize how much of an influence academia has had on programming. My faculty advisor was on the development team for the ADA language, worked with DARPA, and for a short while worked under Dana Stewart Scott. He also laments the current state of affairs.
 
@HostileFork Good point. The "we" in this case was the vast majority of programmers. Compared to the tens of thousands of people working in Java/C/C++/ObjC, the few at Pixar who get to play with something fancy is tiny. I'm not aware of tools (which might be my own shortcoming) that are available to most, even commercially
@iceflow19 I never really thought about it that way. That makes sense
 
@Freezerburn Seen solidworks? Nice stuff: youtube.com/watch?v=DgyrGsAdUPE
But you get the free MS paint program. 'cuz... eh. "Let them use paint" as Marie Antoinette might say.
 
A very early language, Cobol which had an English like syntax was geared toward business and was much more human oriented then other languages at the time. But academia threw it away in favor of the Fortran family. Fortran being the progentitor/ancestor of 90% of the languages out there today.
@Freezerburn Many use AutoDesk.
 
1:07 AM
Then Modula-2 and all of its clones, over and over.
 
@HostileFork Yep
 
@iceflow19 Except, from what I nkow, Cobol is still one of the most-written languages out there because there's so much legacy code still being maintained
 
Legacy code from before the great programming paradigm schism.
 
@iceflow19 I actually know little about Autodesk's tools other than the general "they haev stuff for doing fancy art and whatnot"
 
Well in terms of our conversation, think about what it means that when Boeing made the 777 it was the first plane that was built and tested all in software... a virtual plane (until they built one).
 
1:11 AM
Cobol has stopped being used in new projects for a very long time. To a certain extent Id compare it to Latin.
 
They didn't do it in MS paint. I'm just saying that there are proprietary tools, they're being used, the open source movement is a small window into what "is" in terms of today's landscape of technology... you aren't seeing everything.
And not everyone who has good tech wants to talk about it. Some explicitly don't want and forbid their employees from discussing it.
And... I don't care for these people.
 
Fair enough
 
I have been reformed. I ask for forgiveness for my past.
 
@HostileFork Ah proprietary software. It is still very powerful in the automation field, which lags behind most of the tech sector by over a decade.
 
@iceflow19 Atronix gives their clients the source...
 
1:16 AM
@HostileFork They're also really small.
I've worked for two of the giants.
 
Well just saying one can move forward. Even Microsoft is open sourcing a bunch of crap lately. I don't know that anyone cares, but they are.
 
If anything Atronix is the exception. They also are in the solutions business not in Automation system development. The sector tends to be dominated by very large conglomerates and corporations, its the solutions guys and smaller companies that tend to be more forward thinking IMO.
 
Let's hope this field can actually advance somewhat then. So people working in it can retain their sanity someday
Outside of the niches, that is
 
@Freezerburn One of the reasons is also security. It may not be a good idea to give out the code that underpins entire country's power grids, nuke plants, infrastructure systems, etc.
 
1:22 AM
I can be a pessimist, but I do think that there's a slight--tiny chance for an upside in all the things that are and may come.
 
@iceflow19 Which is totally fair, for some certain subsets of those things. But that code is likely to be written in something that exists, rather than a completely new technology that no one else has. And if it is in some new technology, then I would like that technology to be shared
(as long as said technology isn't just some fancy Java app or something that manages a power grid, that isn't really new technology, that's just a nice way of managing things)
 
@Freezerburn Culture and what you expect is a huge thing. When I was a kid, encyclopedias were a rare thing... you had to spend a bunch of money to have them. They'd go out of date. Today everyone can answer questions quickly.
I think going forward people will demand less friction, more freedom, the idea that everyone gets their own TV station vs. just whoever set up a tower and decides to broadcast...
And I hope the bar just keeps raising and raising among programmers. Keep pushing.
I think Richard Stallman is right. Some people treat him like the butt of a joke, not me.
 
We'll get there. Us programmers are a cantankerous bunch.
 
He's written his views clearly, he's right on basically all counts.
Tactically he caused a few problems here and there, but I think the essays are still valid.
@iceflow19 Programmers like to argue about things.
 
Richard Stallman is interesting. On one hand, I think he's very correct about quite a few things. On the other, he'll deliberately cripple software to stick to his beliefs. (he deliberately made it hard to get a parse tree from gcc so nobody could build a proprietary software stack on top of it)
 
1:30 AM
I have mixed feelings on his views. I think GNU can also stifle development in ways too.
 
Well, someone needs to say what he's saying. Has he done damage here and there? Yes. Who doesn't?
Linus isn't always Mr. Politically Correct: youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ
"Making some friends, there..."
 
Linus? Politically correct? lol
 
So maybe in a way I'm kind of taking an opportunity to say I can get mad and still be valuable. Ah, back to the drama. But anyway, these guys are the people we look up to, how much better are we supposed to be?
I guess saying I look up to Linus isn't quite correct, but I do use stuff he's worked on
I think he's kind of funny
 
Let's put it this way, I think there are some things that just can not be developed within a reasonable amount of time through Open Source. Extremely large applications, and operation critical ones are just two examples. I don't like the open ended answer that some in the opensource community give.
 
@iceflow19 I met the person who coined the term open source, which Richard doesn't like because he thinks open source is too easily confused with free software, then he tunnels into having to explain what "free" is
 
1:37 AM
@iceflow19 That's a good point. And probably correct. (I think I agree with you on it)
 
I thought they could have saved a lot of time by calling it the "Software Freedom Foundation"
People don't listen to me, though
 
It's like turing machines, yes something may be computable if you give it infinite time and infinite memory. Well if given enough time, so and so can be done in an open source manner. << Doesn't mean much to me.
 
@HostileFork Why listen to someone else when you can dogmatically cling your own views? ;)
 
@Freezerburn You've apparently been watching the Rebol/Red discussions longer than you've let on.
 
@HostileFork lol
 
1:40 AM
I wish to clarify, I'm not against Open Source. I just don't think its a magical panacea. It has its uses like anything else.
@HostileFork lol
 
@HostileFork I just know how programmers can be. And it's one of the things I try to fight against personally. I do my best to give the benefit of the doubt and listen to what very well might be good reasons
 
Just like I don't think OOP is the magical panacea to all design problems.
 
A lot of times, solving problems involves the ability to say "no"
 
@iceflow19 And unless done well, can often be the cause of many design problems
 
You have to push back against the people feeding requirements, because if you listen too much, you wind up in a mess
 
1:43 AM
Inheritance trees are their own type of complexity.
 
@HostileFork Someday, when I have enough experience to be some kind of lead of something, my favorite word will probably be "no". Or I'll talk someone's ear off about tradeoffs/complexities/etc.
My implicit punishment for bringing bad things will be talking at them for 3 hours :P
(just like my dad used to do to me... I learned REAL quick to not do things because it would involved a 3+ hours lecture. shudder)
 
@HostileFork Ugh. I know them types.
 
@HostileFork Oh my gosh this is actually my life
Acronyms and all
 
@Freezerburn "If I were at that intersection, I'd stop..."
In any case, @rebolek is a bit afraid that there's going to be a shakeup and the words are going to move around... and that caused a dust up, but the thing is Rebol is actually really quite close to being literate. Yet there have to be some changes.
 
The midmanagement and sales nightmare. Sometimes, you just can't please everyone.
 
1:50 AM
But he doesn't want the design by committee with random requirements like in that video, going closer to the "stop in a red circle", and I actually am on the same page with that
 
Loop and repeat are synonyms in programming colloquial already, so why give them different meanings?
 
@HostileFork At least with the software I work on, it can be designed however obtusely people want to design it because the end users are going to be trained crazy heavily on how to use it
 
@Freezerburn Sounds like SAP lol
 
@iceflow19 I don't know what the right answer is. I've been looking at the question for a while. I don't have the answer but I know what's there needs tweaking
 
@HostileFork That's how I feel most days. "So you want this simple concept?" "Yes, but it should be like this."
@iceflow19 Heh, nooooot quite
 
1:55 AM
@Freezerburn If you actually do graphic design, and have some time and popcorn, this might interest. Or not. Personal archive. :-) youtube.com/watch?v=zF3IkPNHYCo
 
@HostileFork I'll reiterate my earlier position. I think Rebol should move to a framework model. One core, different mezzanines. Provide a legacy mezzanine for Rebol2. It would give us more flexibility imo.
 
@HostileFork I'll check it out sometime, though I don't really do graphic design. Pretty much a straight up programmer. (I just sympathize with the designer in the above video, because it's what I feel like)
 
@iceflow19 Well, that's Ren/C if I don't give up!
 
What is Ren/C?
 
@Freezerburn I'm making Rebol a more flexible embeddable script engine. The existing "API" for embedding was pre-open source and not so good.
It was busy trying to build a parallel set of data structures to avoid exposing Rebol internals, but there was kind of nothing there.
 
2:03 AM
Got it
 
@Freezerburn As in, this. No future in that.
 
@HostileFork Btw, are there any plans for a devcon for this year or the next?
 
@iceflow19 Well there was a Czech one, small, a month or two ago. :-)
 
Ya, but it sounded more like a drinking outing, more than anything. :)
 
I think that likely any meeting of significance will be Red-related and in China.
I'm considering traveling, going to take some kind of vacation soonish. Maybe that could intersect with a meeting of some kind.
The idea has come up before, @rgchris was proposing a meeting in his hood
 
2:10 AM
Where is rgchris's hood?
 
Scotland. :-) No, I think he was in Philadelphia last check in
 
@HostileFork Oh that's not that bad.
 
@iceflow19 Well, still, watch your wallet.
You can all come to my evil island lair if you are so inclined...
(except don't. it's boring.)
Anyway... time to rest for now, thanks for the chat folks...
 
2:27 AM
The other possibility is if Atronix would hold something. They do have the Toledo office, and I have my connections here at the University. Btw, there is a faculty member and his graduate assistants who are interested in Rebol. And a few of the IEEE/ACM officers up here may also interested.
@HostileFork Night!
 
@iceflow19 Bring 'em here, and we'll see what we can do. :-) I'm going to publish Ren/C... soon. It's a more controlled Rebol.
Should be able to run the gauntlet of address verifying tools and such, too.
 
@HostileFork See ya later man. Should probably go to sleep myself. Just need to play one... more... round... of this rhythm game
 
In the meantime it would be nice if there were some easy questions about parse or something popping up, I think people are sorta just waiting around here to pounce :-)
 
I've been trying to get them on Stack Chat.
This is the professor I was talking about. eng.utoledo.edu/eecs/people/carvalho_profile.html
 
@iceflow19 Some interesting photographs at top search for that name :-)
Well certainly bring anyone you can on board and especially ask hard questions
Nite!
 
2:34 AM
Nite!
 
 
5 hours later…
7:42 AM
@iceflow19 Actually, that's an interesting idea. Atlanta meeting.
I feel like we should have a little bit of in-person time to talk about the Ren/C integration somewhere.
Hm, I've assumed @ShixinZeng is in Atlanta... (?)
 
 
2 hours later…
9:28 AM
Maybe you should call new Rebol release by the name - Atlanta :-)
 
 
4 hours later…
1:27 PM
@HostileFork Yes, I am in Atlanta
 
 
3 hours later…
4:29 PM
@HostileFork when will this meeting be?
 
 
4 hours later…
8:35 PM
Pointless C optimization question: Will (((x) >= 'a' && (x) <= 'z') || ((x) >= 'A' && (x) <= 'Z')) always be slower than a version using case?
Efficient. Clear. Simple. Pick any one ...
But I don't want to be caught in any sort of you-optimized-too-early trap.
 
8:52 PM
@MarkI Err... what sort of case?
You mean switch? I don't see what the code you want to contrast with is.
 
9:08 PM
You mean, a switch statement with 'a' 'b' 'c' 'd'... ?
An optimizing compiler, abstractly and theoretically, could notice the isomorphism
It probably won't. At best you get a jump table...which if your processor has a really slow comparison operator (or something) then maybe a case-jump-table will wind up faster. But in that imaginary universe we again have to talk about why there's a spec and the idea of code that acts as if...
I'd be more concerned about the latin alphabet bias.
 
10:06 PM
@JacobGood1 We were just discussing it abstractly. I think there are some questions that, we have to put together, and it's hard to imagine the idea of meetings being the place where decisions are made... unless we know exactly what it is we are signing off on.
I know things are in a bit of disarray, but that doesn't change the fact that I think there's a heck of a lot of interesting design and thinking locked up here.
I suppose people could argue there's latent value in anything, maybe old Delphi codebases or something. Atronix used Delphi in fact, before Rebol.
So one must ask "is it delusional to believe there's something here?" or is there something here. I think there is something here. It's a little tough that it's a small group; and that even in the small group there's such divergence of thought.
 
10:28 PM
That's imo a different perspective. Because those who use Delphi, simply use what Delphi provides. At least that's what I expect. Whereas with Rebol, you somehow expect that ppl will extend the ecosystem ...
 
We need to grow the number of Rebol developers. We need manpower, we have to reach a critical mass. Otherwise the future for Rebol is going to continue to be bleak.
 
10:55 PM
@iceflow19 That also entails realism about understanding what the good parts are. I think the insularity and not really using other tech has been a problem. The world hasn't stood still; not everything is JavaScript out there in the competitive landscape. Don't pick easy opponents, and don't write a simple case and call it done when you have no formal model.
Make sure you're delivering what you're promising.
>> compose [x y (if 1 > 2 "woo") a b]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [x y none a b]
 
I'm reminded of the famous last words from film school: "We'll fix it in post..." (meaning post-production, e.g. we're not doing the shot right but the editors and FX guys will cope w/it)
Rebol and Red can do cool stuff, but it can't be buried under poor usability... or the outright refusal to either do usability studies, or accept the evidence of the outreach here as being valuable data.
 

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