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1:37 AM
I ran across this in RenCpp, where the way functions worked in paths was different from all the other types. For the others, if you have a/b/c/d then it would just grind through...whereas without some kind of partial specialization functions cannot do this. In that chain if B is a function then the "just keep grinding" ends, because once you've resolved a/b to a function FOO then FOO/c has no intermediate representation of a function that can then dispatch to FOO' which takes FOO'/d.
in theory you could build such a beast, and I've wanted partial specialization anyway.
So it's tempting to suggest that you could actually do something like foo: :append/only and then do foo/dup [a b c] [d e] 2 and get [a b c [d e] [d e]
@RebolBot
foo: :append/only
foo/dup [a b c] [d e] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a b c d e d e]
 
@RebolBot
append/only/dup [a b c] [d e] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a b c [d e] [d e]]
 
So currently it doesn't error, it just treats foo: :append/only the same as foo: :append...buuug
@redbot
foo: :append/only
foo/dup [a b c] [d e] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Runtime Error 1: access violation
*** at: 0809AFFAh
 
1:44 AM
@redbot
foo: :append
foo/dup [a b c] [d e] 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a b c d e d e]
 
https://github.com/red/red/pull/1118
GitHub
Red Pull Req—FIX: issue #1115 (red/console stuck in a block)
qtxie
1429991359
 
This need is different from specialization, however...because you are deferring the argument value gathering itself. You're just turning on refinements. Looking at the hackish way this is done at the moment is "not pleasing"
Riffing on terminology I might call it a "refined function" vs. a "specialized function"
red> append/only: [a b c] [d e]
 
2:01 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a b c]
 
Puzzle over that one.
 
2:20 AM
I think I mentioned it before, but why shouldn't you be able to append to a WORD! and get a PATH!? append 'foo 'bar => foo/bar
The concept of being able to append to a scalar, and create a series, is a bit strange. Potentially useful but it raises questions like append #"A" "bcd"...should that be #"A"/"bcd" or "abcd"?
And "why not [#"A" "bcd"]" I guess. So if you only allow series as append targets, you don't have the type ambiguity.
 
3:06 AM
posted on April 26, 2015 by noreply

The main point of this minor release is to speed up compilation time by introducing a new way for the compiler to store Red values required for constructing the environment during the runtime library startup. Introducing Redbin Red provides already a text-oriented serialization format, following the base Rebol principles. Here are the available serialization formats in Red now with some pros/

2
 
3:20 AM
posted on April 26, 2015 by DocKimbel

Red 0.5.3 is out: http://www.red-lang.org/2015/04/053-faster-compilation-and-extended.html

 
 
4 hours later…
6:51 AM
>> compose/deep [a/(1 + 2)]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a/(1 + 2)]
 
>> compose/deep [[a (1 + 2)]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [[a 3]]
 
 
3 hours later…
9:49 AM
posted on April 26, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] Red 0.5.3: Faster compilation and extended vector! support

 
 
2 hours later…
11:33 AM
@HostileFork Rebol supports these types of functions: STRICT needs a block as its argument, otherwise syntax error; the behaviour of VERSATILE depends on its argument being a block or not; LENIENT would like a block argument and wraps the argument in a block if it is not already a block; INTERPRETING converts its argument to a block. The coexistence of thes types is one of those things that makes Rebol confusing.
As a function user, I would prefer LENIENT to STRICT. As a function maker, I might be too lazy to do it the LENIENT way.
 
11:49 AM
Maybe Rebol should stimulate me to write LENIENTs by allowing to specify function argument formats by the name of a one-argument function instead of a datatype. I.e. something like func [x [blockify]] [...] instead of func [x [any-type!]] [x: blockify x ...].
 
12:09 PM
Hey there @memophenon, good to hear from you. That's an interesting idea; I've noticed the idiom but not thought about it being made more automatic. It is often the case that something which takes a single argument could be made to take many to avoid repeated invocation.
The thing I tend to think, performance aside, is that if you could just write foreach elem [...] [foo elem] and have it semantically mean the same as foo [...] that burdening the author of foo with making the block version isn't as good as better syntactic sugar for the repeated invocation...that you should only make the block version if there's something of distinct meaning in foo [a b] vs. foo 'a foo 'b
In lest I proposed << as an easier way of saying this, so you write foo << [a b] and it will do foo 'a foo 'b for you.
 
I've never thought about situations like you describe. But at several occasions in my life, the distinction between an element and a set of just that one element was annoying. BTW, I would have missed your question to MarkI if my eye wasn't attracted by the for x [1 2 3] [a b c] -7 [print x] case. Is this a feature c.q. explainable, or just cancer?
How about a cartesion product of functions and arguments? cart [foo bar] [a b]
 
@Memophenon Just cancer. :-)
@Memophenon I'm in the midst of a massive quantum shift in Rebol code, there's a lot of reading to be done if you like, I've worked through things in prototypes but that could only go so far. Example: github.com/hostilefork/rebol-proposals/blob/master/…
And as you haven't been around for a while you might have missed RenCpp+Ren Garden: youtube.com/watch?v=0exDvv5WEv4
 
12:32 PM
Have seen it yesterday. Impressive! All the time I was wondering where it was going to...
So you are trying to clean up Rebol. One of my worries is the possible divergence between Rebol and Red.
 
@Memophenon The way I see it is to showcase some best practices to try and have them ready for Red. It's not so much about whether one definition in the box is different than the other, but more important that the ability exists to load a module and customize them both to a common denominator of some form.
>> probe load "(a + b)/c/d"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[(a + b) /c /d]
== [(a + b) /c /d]
 
>> probe load "a/(b + c)/d"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
a/(b + c)/d
== a/(b + c)/d
 
That's the kind of thing I want to get rid of and cohere, and get DocKimbel to see as "bad and not good". Not as easy as it might seem.
His opinions sometimes turn out to be based on weird elements of truth, something along the lines of "I never liked parens in paths anyway, and I certainly don't like them at the head of paths, so if it screws up that's okay with me... I'm considering not supporting them at all." One can see it seeming a bit visually out of band from Rebol, where it looks like three tokens: a/(b, + and c)/d
so then he'll say write foo: b + c and a/:foo/d and all is well.
But that's where I get out my thinking hat from the attic, shake the dust off of it, and try new ideas that make paths more palatable systemically
 
12:53 PM
load "a/(b + c)/d" seems to be a decent path in both Rebol and Red.
But I do know the path paradigms aren't quite settled, generally speaking.
And a lot of stuff alike that, as spaces in words, the use of issues and so on.
 
Yup. But I like the design puzzle of it all. To me, for instance, the evolution that brought about if/unless/either is nifty. I now hate writing if (!expr) {...} in C and want to say unless (expr) {...}. It's like once you have it you don't want to let go of it.
 
You seem to have another mission too: converting people to the blessings of C++. It makes me longing for Red/System++. Any change, do you think?
 
And now I like the concept of while/until being that way...same arity, inverted condition. while [x > 0] [...] and until [x > 0] [...] being a matched pair.
@Memophenon I think C++ is what it is, and the direction I would go more extreme from it (while sacrificing evaluative control) would definitely be more mathy/invariant to Haskell. I don't think any of that is on the Rebol/Red roadmap
Different mediums. I keep coming back to the art / toy store idea. There's the clay aisle, there's the LEGO section, there's the spirograph... to me it's about getting each category of toy right to be the best it can, not that one is "better" than another.
I do feel there are certain limits to Rebol and Red, with some of those limits self-imposed in an almost Amish-style. "We stop here."
 
One of my annoyances is "We keep on progressing". Sometimes I want things as they are, imperfect as they may be, and getting used to it. Where's the right balance?
A Dutch saying is: "You have to forge the iron when it's hot". I feel this is such a hot moment for Red, so I very much sympathize with your efforts.
 
1:09 PM
@Memophenon Toyota on getting back to basics, replacing robots with people: japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/04/07/business/…
 
BTW, the implementation of WHILE is superb, because of while [<before test> <test>] [<after test>]. I would appreciate UNTIL behaving the same.
 
@Memophenon I have also added /AFTER so you only test the condition after the body has run once.
UNTIL currently doesn't have parity:
>> help until
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    UNTIL block

DESCRIPTION:
    Evaluates a block until it is TRUE.
    UNTIL is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    block (block!)
 
I have decided that is useful, but is the proper function of REPEAT
It has no analogue because there is no interesting return value from something that tests for truth until false and then returns... FALSE
But I like the pair up of while/until a lot...where the return value is the last evaluation of the body or NONE if the body never ran.
These little design questions are something I like best, it's tweaky the way graphic design and other design is. But the language has to work and deliver on its promises for any of it to matter.
Explaining to someone how good it feels to write an unless statement is hard, if they've never written code and gotten to thinking that way. Other programming languages start feeling like 1984 NewSpeak. Double plus ungood.
 
It's not that ungood. Never had a problem with writing IF NOT, but nevertheless always wrote UNLESS since Perl. Feels more eloquent indeed.
And... we can say UNLESS NOT now :-)
 
1:26 PM
@Memophenon I don't recall if you were a C programmer or not... ?
 
I learned C in order to understand Red/System.
 
I'm improving the maintainability and adaptability of Rebol, and most especially tightening it up so regression testing can actually make use of valgrind's memcheck to find bugs, as well as making it compile without warnings with them turned up very high. It can be built as C++89 or C99 now.
I hope to make it a "demo showcase" for what Red should target. It should also be useful in its own right, especially as I think Red should hold off on bootstrap.
Better lexing/scanning hopefully thrown in by @MarkI. Hoping to get soon to >>=: function [a b infix: true] [...] and foo >>= bar, for instance.
Need more C programmers with pet projects to throw in, though :-)
 
1:45 PM
I'm afraid I have to disappoint you in this respect. Apart from my current C level, I have to spend my time to other areas (mainly SAS programming and products). I am preparing for an exam now. This weekend I couldn't resist to see how Rebol and Red were doing, however.
 
Well don't forget that it's a good Swiss-Army-Knife for whatever you're doing, as long as you don't let it take more time than it may be worth in getting involved in the design...
 
2:02 PM
Still puzzling on /AFTER... while [++ a c: b: 42 a < 10] [d: c: a] returns the value 9, and afterwards A = 10, B = 42, C = 42, and D = 9. What would while/after ... do?
Hmmm... maybe you shouldn't answer me, but let me think a bit longer first.
 
Runs body once prior to the condition block at all, then acts as while as-you-know it
I'll also mention that I've gotten fond of vertical pipe as an "expression barrier". while [++ a | c: b: 42 | a < 10] [d: c: a]
I'd originally suggested comma for it, but found I didn't care for comma.
It's a shift from seeing | as an operator to a barrier, but once you see it that way it helps make such things more readable when on one line and prevent bugs, as it evaluates to an UNSET!
After training you don't see it as infix, as if a | c: is supposed to "do something"
Purely optional for those who would use it...but I would (and do)
 
I've been looking for such an optical mark too, and only found the \ being free. I'm not opponent to giving up the current use of the comma.
 
while [++ a , c: b: 42 , a < 10] [d: c: a] vs. while [++ a \ c: b: 42 \ a < 10] [d: c: a] vs. while [++ a | c: b: 42 | a < 10] [d: c: a]
 
Do you think it's possible to tokenize | as a space, and || as a ||, which could be assigned bitwise OR to?
But it looks like something I can implement myself.
 
posted on April 26, 2015 by peterwawood

Red 0.5.3 has been released bringing faster compilation times and extended support of the vector! datatype. The full announcement can be read at http://www.red-lang.org Regards Peter

 
2:16 PM
Visually, I prefer the bar.
 
I do not think || as bitwise OR is a good idea to put "in the box". For those who want it, it can be an option. But it's not so precious. In general Rebol isn't infix, and carrying forth such traditions aren't as nice as union, intersect, difference ...
We've a plan to make infix AND, OR, and XOR "conditional" vs bitwise and eliminate prefix AND~, OR~, XOR~, in favor of the union/intersect/difference. NOT is already conditional, and negate would be bitwise...working on integers or bitsets and such
 
I wouldn't mind to give up interpunction characters for bitwise operators, or even infix altogether.
...that is, infix for bitwise. Don't take away + and - from me, please.
 
Yup, we need infix for a few things.
And I believe being able to make one's own infix operators and having a coherent lexical system to get things like ~> or <- or <-- vs. today's hodgepodge of limited "parsing exception" hacks is the right way to go
More importantly for dialects
I'm resisting tag-like things or mixups like <a as legal, because how to say visually across spacing you weren't going to write <a href="stuff">. Creates ambiguity. And also anything that might be seen as tag-like. <=> for instance; no spaces, starts with < and ends with >. You can however write <= > and get two symbol-based words in sequence.
This hinges on not allowing so-called "natural" TAG! to begin with space or end with space, among other prerequisites
 
Ah! ** is still free! **: :| |: #" " and there I have my visual separator.
 
Note that we are discussing allowing ^_ to be space, as a word whose name has an escape character in it. (I still want ^- for space, but history has taken that for tab. I'll keep thinking about how strongly I feel on that.)
 
2:29 PM
Oops, the backtick is a markup symbol. Read <backtick> is still free! <backtick>: :| |: #" ".
 
Still visually comparable to forward tick... while [++ a ' c: b: 42 ' a < 10] [d: c: a]
I'd be loathe to imagine giving backtick and forward tick different meanings, as I have bought into the idea that period and comma should only be equivalent anywhere they both have meaning.
 
It may not be obvious, but I defined the backtick as bitwise OR and redefined the vertical bar as a space. So | has become the separator.
 
|: does []
Over time I've come to think the vertical bar is best, although it's odd that I sort of like backslash too. It has enough heft (which the comma lacks) and yet it makes things stand out. I'm wondering if `\` could be literal UNSET! ?
But a nasty thing about backslash, as the markdown here is showing, is how poorly it plays with existing escaping though.
Seems it's all right in markdown as long as it has spaces around it. What about *set/any 'foo *
No dice there.
Bringing backslash into Rebol and giving it meaning is a kind of can of worms. Maybe a can worth opening. I don't know.
From altme: "This is both verbose and inelegant: set-modes blk 'hash? yes" -- @pekr what about mode blk [hash?: yes] and if you want to get modes you would write mode blk [:hash? :capacity] for instance. It could be a dialect that could both set and get in the same call. mode blk [:hash? hash?: not hash? blk :capacity] Would give you back a block of the hash? state prior to calling and the capacity. Flip the state of the hash from the opposite of whatever it was.
If our friend expression barrier were used: mode blk [:hash? | hash?: not hash? blk | :capacity] => [true 10] for instance
I wanted something like this for HINT, because I really think a lot of things should be hints that the type may-or-may-not honor to tweak performance.
 
2:48 PM
do you have account on Altme? Or could I repost your remarks there?
 
@pekr You can repost, that's fine
 
OK, thanks. I think it is one of those things, where REP would be usefull, so that it is logged in wiki and ppl can comment ....
btw - Carl planned on object having a spec block too ... although it might be different to meta, but could be unified ...
 
I've started to want expression barrier in PARSE too. Which makes me wonder what could take the place of | in a list of optional rules. What makes | nice for that is what makes it nice for expression barriers.
That's an argument for something like backslash as literal unset. Hmmm.
 
| is nice for an expression barrier indeed ...
 
Does anyone dare to ask Carl about his anticathetophobia?
 
2:56 PM
Then I could write parse "aaabbccc" [some "a" \ 2 "b" \ any "c"] without disrupting the existing usage. But parse "aaabbccc" [some "a" | 2 "b" | any "c"] is perhaps better balanced. But then how to convey a list of "rule alternates" in a literate fashion?
If more symbols opened up, that gives options.
a -> [b c] -> d (e f)
Perhaps that would help also indicate the hierarchy of priorities in the match list; that the first gets first chance. Or perhaps that would be a <- [b c] <- d (e f) to better convey it? A simple > or < could do it, too...be just one character. Not so bad.
parse "asdfhajsdhfkjahsdf" [a < [b c] < d (e f)] ... is that so much worse than parse "asdfhajsdhfkjahsdf" [a | [b c] | d (e f)]? I guess the nice thing about <- or something "weirder" is that it wouldn't look like a comparison
 
PARSE is a different dialect from LOAD. What if | meant OR in PARSE, en UNSET! in LOAD. Would that be a serious problem for reading or writing those dialects?
 
parse "asdfhajsdhfkjahsdf" [a >> [b c] >> d (e f)]
It's okay except for the part where I want an expression barrier in PARSE also
 
Another (maybe naive) suggestion: / = OR in PARSE.
 
In my formulation, / is a PATH!.
So I'm trying to get people to let go of it for division as a WORD! exception
 
I'm not quite at home in PARSE anymore. Can you give an example where you need such a barrier?
 
3:08 PM
Of an expression barrier usage? I gave one above. An opportunity to write parse "aaabbccc" [some "a" | 2 "b" | any "c"] instead of parse "aaabbccc" [some "a" 2 "b" any "c"] and not being pressured into parse "aaabbccc" [[some "a"] [2 "b"] [any "c"]]. (without expression barriers, in DO the pressure is to parenthesize things to communicate what you know... any [a b c d e] => any [(a b) (c) (d e)] vs. any [a b | c | d e])
Today vertical pipe being taken for OR would have a completely different meaning in PARSE, but I'm suggesting expression barriers aren't just useful in DO dialect.
In today's PARSE:
>> parse "bbccccaaabbccc" [some [some "a" | 2 "b" | any "c"]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
@HostileFork I'm not sure I understand you well here. In my view a/b is a path and a / b a division in DO. Then [a / b] could be a disjunction in PARSE.
 
Which is all well and good, except I want that vertical bar back to act like an expression barrier...and it seems another symbol could do that and perhaps even convey the "chaining" better
@Memophenon Yes, today that is the way of things. Despite the gravitas of / in paths...a lone / surrounded by space is a "parsing exception", registering as a WORD!, that is used for division.
I have a different idea about coherence and making / a "path-only" character; the way [ and ] and ( and ) and { and } etc. have been "claimed"
It could still act as division in numeric dispatch if you built a real path out of something. 20/10 could be a path that resolves to 2.
I started this line of thinking with NewPath and have developed it further, though I haven't updated the post.
 
What I like about the semicolon (as separator in other languages) is that you don't have to press the shift key. Backslash has the same advantage.
 
@Memophenon always keyboard-dependent, and keyboards can be remapped in any case. I actually might prefer it if the bias for shift were different on my backslash/vertical-pipe key
 
3:22 PM
If 20/10 is a path with an outcome of 2 in a numeric context, what prevents rule1/rule2 from being a path with disjunctive interpretation in a rule context?
 
It is nice to observe that [ and ], as primary block characters in Rebol, usually don't require a shift. But people have shown up and told us that on their keyboard (in BFE :-P) it's not so.
 
Let's do a worldwide quantitative analysis on this.
 
@Memophenon Not wanting to put rule1 or rule2 in a block when they contain more than one element in the rule.
Also: Having other applications of PATH! in PARSE!
 
(The survey I suggested above concerns keyboards.)
 
It would be interesting to know, and make a good blog topic. But I guess the fact of the matter is Rebol and Red aren't going to change the block character...or most characters...in light of such a study.
The influence of knowing how many characters require shift or not is unlikely at this point in the process to have much effect.
 
3:29 PM
@HostileFork - re shift requirement - it was quite selfish excuse from Carl, as brackets don't require a shift on english keyboard only ;-) E.g. on Czech one, to get those chars, I need AtlGR + F or G ...
 
@pekr See, that's because Czech has too many letters in it. You use up all your space just to type your names in. :-)
 
3:42 PM
@Memophenon Funny enough, in Rebol the design of semicolon as being the line comment while terminating expressions in other languages is considered a "feature". You can write foo [baz bar]; and get no error.
Gives one a bit more of a shot at Polyglots
 
0
Q: Understanding Red/System compilation optimizations compared to GCC

RAbrahamWhile reading the Red site, I came across a statement stating that compiling an hello world Red/System program creates.. "...a 162 bytes ELF binary, while a similar C code would produce a 5-6KB binary using Gcc" That's amazing. Can someone explain/point me to the techniques making such op...

 
When programming in Rexx, I had to avoid the OR operator because of character encoding issues when porting scripts from mainframe to pc or vice versa. It made me inventive, but probably not inventive enough to make you happy with this solution: p OR q is equivalent to NOT p IMPLIES q. So in Rebol: replace rule1 | rule2 with ! rule1 -> rule2. :-(
In a lot of languages, comma means OR. Oh, we didn't like the comma, did we?
 
Nope.
I think rule1 -> rule2 is already pointing to a possible solution that isn't too horrible. But one thing people get into a lot in writing parse rules is the multi line case.
parse input [
     some [
         blah blah blah
     |
         more blah blah blah
     |
         yet more blah blah
     ]
]
You find a lot of code that looks like that.
parse input [
     some [
         blah blah blah
     ->
         more blah blah blah
     ->
         yet more blah blah
     ]
]
Not so bad, not so bad...
 
Ouch
 
@rebolek Oh you don't like anything new.
 
3:54 PM
Of course.
 
I'll be prying REFORM and REMOLD out of your cold, dead hands :-)
 
| suggests OR, while -> suggest CONTINUE.
 
Well, OR also suggests OR.
parse input [
     some [
         blah blah blah
     or
         more blah blah blah
     or
         yet more blah blah
     ]
]
I don't think | "suggests OR" in any semiotic way, but it has precedent... sort of. Bitwise OR is very different from logical.
 
Yes, but | makes nice visual distinction,while OR doesn't
 
As I said, the things which make | desirable for expression barrier would make it desirable for other abstractions to wish to claim it.
 
3:57 PM
Then you probably never heard about algebra.
 
@rebolek I have, but more recently I've heard of conditional probability
 
Also, it's used in BNF for the same thing which makes it easier for newcomers to adapt
 
The vertical bar ( | ) is a computer character and glyph with various uses in mathematics, computing, and typography. It has many names, often related to particular meanings: Sheffer stroke (in logic), verti-bar, vbar, stick, vertical line, vertical slash, bar, obelisk, glidus, or pipe. == Usage == === Mathematics === The vertical bar is used as a mathematical symbol in absolute value: , read "the absolute value of x". norms: , read "the norm of x one, x two"; though Unicode also provides a special double vertical line symbol U+2016: ‖x‖ Parallelism in geometry, where indicates that the line is...
Offhand I don't recall that BNF has a prioritization system the way PARSE does.
>> parse "aaaa" [some ["a" (print "matched a") | "aa" (print "matched aa") | "aaaa" (print "matched aaaa")]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
matched a
matched a
matched a
matched a
== true
 
@rebolek It is for this reason that I don't think implying CONTINUE or something of the like is bad, rather it is good.
 
4:01 PM
BNF is just a concept, PARSE an implementation.
 
BTW, I like new things, I just don't like breaking old things that work just for personal satisfaction
 
@rebolek I used to feel that way. I complained a lot about how Rebol was the worst PHP I'd ever had to use. All my programs were broken.
There I was, with these massive PHP codebases, and nothing but errors every time Rebol tried to run them. :-(
I nearly sent it back to the factory. It was the discovery of personal satisfaction that made it all worthwhile. :-P
 
@HostileFork good for you
 
@rebolek I think "personal satisfaction" is part of the point here, and what we need to ask is exactly what is it that keeps us from having our cake and eating it too. Not enough effort is invested in making sure the system can meet both old needs and new ones that it doesn't get exercise on mutability.
If you like | for OR in parse, and I don't because I want it as expression barriers, what is technically prohibiting the system from supporting either?
We find issues like keyword lockdown, and explanations for why the keywords are locked down to turn into hardcoded symbol numbers for a faster inner loop.
And so the response is no soup (cake) for you! if you don't like the choices. Not a good answer. Not visionary enough thinking.
 
4:17 PM
In the meantime I've done some other useless experiments.
Like the Céline style a: 1... while [++ a... c: b: 42... a < 10] [d: c: a]. You may not like it, but hey, this is literature, man!
 
@Memophenon Carl did ask the question basically of expression barriers with commas that were "stuck", e.g. a: 1, while [++ a, c: b: 42, a < 10] [d: c: a] and he said he seriously considered it as putting real interstitial COMMA! things (I believe that was the spin) but the fact is that 42,50 is like 42.50 and compatible with french numbering as I noted in Montreal...
So who is to say that 42, isn't meant to be 42.0 ?
 
Reading a: 1 -> while [++ a -> c: b: 42 -> a < 10] [d: c: a] is a bit of okay, but writing it is horrible.
 
The problem of using -> in DO dialect is that there's a lot of < and > going on already.
PARSE doesn't have any of that. And again, I'm not blessing -> in any way, I was just throwing out the idea of using something other than |
The vertical pipe for expression barrier I initially dismissed; it seemed too "heavy"... looked too much like it might be a lowercase L or maybe a 1. (Depends on your font, and arguably a good programming font does good distinctions, e.g. making O and a zero look different. I tend to use proportional fonts, and like Verdana.)
So in a good programming font you should be able to write [0 O 0 O O O 0] and know what you're dealing with, as with [1 l | 1 I 1 1 | l I |]
 
@HostileFork Most programming languages only support the decimal point in numeric literals. Being continental myself, I don't see it as a problem. The language itself being based on English, while there are so many beautiful natural languages on the continent, isn't a problem either.
 
>> a.b: 10 print a.b
 
4:28 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
 
>> a....: 10 print a....
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
10
 
@Memophenon As long as dots are allowed in words, the ... won't fly
 
I agree on -> not being very striking between the <s and >s. In order to make the dots fly, untie them from words.
 
@Memophenon Some say Rebol was better in the original Sanskrit :-)
 
4:32 PM
The Shadok language would have been more appropriate. It has only four words, and everything can be said.
 
I scanned some pictures of a language I was making up as a kid which had 256 characters. I arranged the 8 bits on the 8 outside portions of a grid (like a #), then had a way to write the characters in shorthand. It was split into 16 consonant sounds and 16 vowel sounds per character, so each character was pronounced with both.
I didn't know Japanese but people who saw it who did explained I'd kind of done what they'd done
Ya Ma Ha. To Yo Ta. Etc.
Ih Nuh Te Ra Ne Tuh
 
4:51 PM
It sounds like the Korean writing system to me. Don't know that much of Japanese, neither of Korean, but the latter seems to be more simple. Actually, it is an ingenious piece of engineering, not the result of tradition.
Hmm... dinner time here on the continent. Have to leave. My conclusion for today: I don't want to give up vbar = OR in PARSE, and would appreciate backspaces, backticks or commas as statement separator. Tomorrow is another day, next month another month, next year another year. Never stop thinking. "We don't stop here."
 
@Memophenon @HostileFork I don't think this is a bad idea—though I've specific case use in mind, I've been wanting .word to register as a separate word type. Indeed I've a Parse rule for it: use [word continue][[set word word! (continue: either #"." = take form word [[]][[end skip]]) continue]]
>> ? rebol.com
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
REBOL.COM is an url of value: rebol.com
 
@Memophenon TTYS... stop in again
@rgchris What in particular makes you want .word to be a different type from w.ord?
If it were a different type, you couldn't write (for instance) .word: {stuff}
In other news, there is a depressing amount of invisible dependency on the specific ordering of types in types.r. Woe be unto you if you reorder these.
The make prep stage generates header files that make defines like REB_UNSET and REB_BLOCK, and you might imagine that it's abstract. It isn't. The ranges are checked, and not just ranges within a common set of superclasses.
It's very, very irritating. If code depends on a set of types, that typeset should be established as a bitset at boot time... not fully random range compares of >= REB_XXX and <= REB_YYY. Not only would that perform better, but it would allow rearrangement of the types when it seems every client of the types has different ideas of what ranges to compare to </end gripe>
@earl ^-- That make Hulk Fork mad. Hulk Fork smash code with hidden dependencies.
 
5:25 PM
@rgchris Which can be simplified in r3 as
>> parse [.asd fgh][set word word! if (#"." = first form word) 'fgh]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
@HostileFork It is different type just in your own dialect. For example CSS class.
 
@Memophenon I'd star the {Never stop thinking. "We don't stop here."} except for the retention of vbar = OR. vbar is first and foremost a vertical line, and everything else is secondary. There is very little to support a prioritized matching as in parse "aaaa" [some ["a" (print "matched a") | "aa" (print "matched aa") | "aaaa" (print "matched aaaa")]]. It might be argued that lines up with short-circuit evaluation of a logical (vs. bitwise) OR.
But I don't see people pushing for | as logical OR. OR are they?
@rebolek I think on the margins of dialect design, it's acceptable to decide to pick out specific patterns of word spelling and give those patterns meaning. You're starting to get a little wild at that point. Perhaps it just suggests there need to be a few other convenient ANY-WORD! ("symbol?") formation patterns. Leading dot has a bit of a bad smell if internal or trailing dot is just-another-character
It's a slippery slope to doing what is effectively string processing
I don't personally want to slip too far on that slope. And maybe a better PATH! could open doors.
Why not instead of .foo go to ./foo ?
Then you're dealing with genuine separable word components.
 
@HostileFork Because people are used to .foo as CSS class syntax and I'm writing HTML/CSS dialect?
 
@rebolek Well there's a lot of XML out there too...
 
5:39 PM
So?
 
@rebolek So?
(Is that better?)
 
What does XML has to do with it?
 
@rebolek I'm saying if we can answer questions--such as the question of how to rein in (not reign, sorry about the earlier typo on that in the starred comment) the number of word types by giving a stronger composite type--with a stronger PATH! then that is important.
What if we could reduce the word types and enrich the vocabulary with more structure?
 
@HostileFork Okay, maybe it is important,but this is practical trick that you can use right now.
 
@rebolek It's not practical to keep inventing new word types all the time just because you sort of feel you need it.
*/foo - bam, I have a new "WORD!" type...
?/foo - bam, there's another.
 
5:43 PM
If you need it, why not.
 
Because new word types require modifying the core, the lexer, etc. Ask @MarkI about why not.
For the price of one slash, you avoid the symbolic overhead of creating yet another symbol in the symbol table
What we need is more comfort with PATH!, and something like NewPath. @earl says "PracticalPath" vs. full-on NewPath
I haven't seen the PracticalPath blog entry yet
 
@HostileFork You can fork Lest and change it, so instead of .class it would use ./class if you think it makes more sense. I do not.
 
@rebolek I might, but we're discussing a philosophical point for the moment.
So just hear the message.
 
No,I said this is practical trick, you are discussing philosophical point.
 
I said above practical trickery is okay, if you want to go that way. I was just sort of pushing back against @rgchris's suggestion that this should motivate a new core word type, when the core notion of "expanding the space" is more sustainably managed via path.
I faced some of this stuff in the Rubol "Ruby-ish" dialect.
I was trying to fake as much as possible...and so getting into the guts of the spelling of a word as an out-of-band "type indicator" was fair game.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:46 PM
@HostileFork Typography is more important to me than you might think. Here's an example of my code. One of OR's features I like so much, is that it's a vertical bar:
parse/all message [
  "Procedure " copy proccode to " "
| thru "<-- "  copy proccode to " "
| thru "<-- "  copy proccode to end
]
You may appreciate my lay-out or not -- it's a matter of taste.
Another OR symbol would work more or less the same, but I simply like this one most, aesthetically.
 
@Memophenon /ALL is dead in Rebol3, it was a bad idea to not always do /ALL in the first place. PARSE should see what's there, the filtering created problems.
 
Another aspect: if a statement separator has a higher priority than OR, I would like it to have a more discreet appearance. A comma, for instance?
The example was Rebol 2. Old code from a forgotten past.
 
8:01 PM
Stylistically I prefer SPACE to " ", it would also be more efficient as it's a character and not a string match
Another issue is whether or not you want locals-gathering to take effect. Should it be copy proccode: to space ?
If so then you wouldn't have to do /local proccode were it a FUNC. We've recently discussed the ecology of abstractions and if locals-gathering and its rules are worth making all dialects play by
 
Consider I was young and innocent then. :-) Could use some lessons in modern parsing.
 
We are starting (likely thus) at least from:
parse message [
  "Procedure " copy proccode: to space
| thru "<-- "  copy proccode: to space
| thru "<-- "  copy proccode: to end
]
Though I find spaces as string beginnings or terminals to be hard to notice
parse message [
  "Procedure" space copy proccode: to space
| thru "<--" space copy proccode: to space
| thru "<--" space copy proccode: to end
]
One way of helping increase the legibility without expression barriers is blocks
parse message [
  "Procedure" space [copy proccode: to space]
| thru "<--" space [copy proccode: to space]
| thru "<--" space [copy proccode: to end]
]
Looks okay here. But let's say you want something cheaper (remember that a series costs much more than an extra word.
 
Too late for that! You've already convinced me that "Procedure" space \ copy proccode: to space is the better presentation.
(Written before having read your last sentence.)
 
The backslash is interesting as "literal UNSET!". I think ruling it out just because Markdown doesn't like it would be short-sighted.
I'd prefer noticing that Markdown doesn't like it and keeping that fact on the radar.
It may be the perfect solution. Don't allow it as a word character, just be a lexical entity accepted only as a lone backslash with space or brackets/parens next to it, and only accept one of them. Then let it exist for those who wish to use it and all who want to ignore it can.
It might be the most realistic opportunity given that PARSE will be slow to change and people are fighting for | as it is
[a b \ c d \ e f g]
[a b | c d | e f g]
 
I didn't notice any problem with Markdown. It's the C-like languages that go besirk.
 
8:15 PM
I can see benefits in the former, visually.
Try doing MarkDown when the \ isn't interstitial
 
Like \this\ ?
 
But again that being part of the point, you generally wouldn't use \ unless it was interstitial and had spaces on both sides.
[foo /]
Try that with \ instead of /
 
[foo]
Okay, observed.
 
It's not a good argument against it, though. And I'm sort of eyeing it and thinking I may be starting to like it more than |.
I hated comma, which I initially stood up for, but turned out to just dislike in practice.
We've been looking for an UNSET! literal and this might be the ticket
(# is a NONE! literal)
>> type? #
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none!
 
8:20 PM
Never programmed in COBOL, have you? COBOL is worse, having a dot as statement separator.
 
No, I am blissfully COBOL-ignorant
 
Lucky you! Is # not a bit too heavy?
It works, however.
 
(Not blissfully so in that I assume it's bad for its time or not having ideas, I just have too much in my head as is.)
@Memophenon It's up for debate, but we feel the need for some way of making a NONE! literal easily.
@MarkI ^-- see above regarding backslash as having one-and-only-one purpose: singular UNSET! literal. Thoughts?
I think the good news about it is that if you limit \ like that, you're not likely to wind up with \/\/\
 
Don't stuff this in your head, but make a note of it. COBOL is based on two interesting ideas: (1) data structure (well thought, followed by many other languages) and (2) procedures in plain English (followed by AppleScript, both a failure IMO).
 
Rebol suffers from having many more than just two interesting ideas, and a lack of a clear prioritization of the multivariate heritage.
@Memophenon Got to run for now, but thanks for the input on the expression barriers, I'll think it over. There is predictable resistance to changing vertical pipe's behavior in PARSE, so even if it weren't better via other metrics it might be chosen. But from where I look at the moment, it's seeming not so bad to use \ ... perhaps better. Will have to look at more examples and get some experience w/it.
 
8:31 PM
Important difference: COBOL still attracts me by (1), and I hated (2) from the beginning on. Rebol is an annoyance, but fascinating and a promise.
Okay, run! Bye.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:34 PM
I guess there isn't really a need for the extra word type (though arguably '.' could be a drop-in replacement for '/' for refinements or paths—NOT suggesting that though), but it would be useful sometimes to be able to have pseudo-types based on some constraint or other. Like a word that begins with '.', or an object with a specific 'type or word spec. With blocks, you at least have INTO in Parse to detect structure without relying on evaluation.
>> collect [parse [.asd fgh][some [and set word word! if (#"." = first form word) (keep word) skip | word!]]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [.asd]
 
>> collect [probe parse [.asd fgh][some [and set word word! if (#"." = first form word) (keep word) skip | word! (keep form word)]]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
true
== [.asd "fgh"]
 
10:23 PM
Different PARSE problem: I wonder if the COLLECT/KEEP concept in Red could be refined to ignore KEEP calls on failed branches—
red> test-data: [a b]
parse test-data [
    collect [
          keep 'a keep 'a
        | keep 'a keep 'b
    ]
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [a a b]
 
10:51 PM
That would be great
 

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