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4:14 AM
@MarkI Looking forward to scanner changes for new symbols... then someone needs to fix it so you can declare new infix functions... at this point, probably not too hard for me to tweak something in there. I've looked at enough of it.
 
@HostileFork I've been babbling on in the Red Room about a syntax for hexadecimals ... what do you think of postfix base with #?
So, like FFFF#16.
Defaults to 16, so FFFF# is the same number as above.
It's usurping the word# space, but maybe it's worth it.
 
@MarkI It's not the worst thing that could happen, but I mentioned my reservation about looking at something like 1616#16 and wondering "what the heck is that"
 
The one teensy issue I have with it is that it does collide a little with 16#{ABCD}.
@HostileFork That'll just never happen! :) Seriously, I too have thought about the visual strain with a postfix base. Rebol already has those though
 
@MarkI That too. But I think the advantage is that leaving out { } or ( ) or < > or [ ] helps hint "not a series"
@MarkI Offhand I don't know what postfix bases there already are. What are they?
 
I like it better than my second choice, backslash: 16\FFFF or \FFFF
 
4:21 AM
I still insist you use 1616 as the example when evaluating it.
hex>1616
 
@HostileFork Deal: 16\1616. Still better than a keyword :)
 
I don't think so
 
@HostileFork They're not bases, just postfix. Your favourite, tags in paths.
Or for that matter, parens in paths.
@HostileFork As good? Close to being as good? Nearly in the same ballpark? :)
 
@MarkI I'd prefer 16#1616 and appreciating that 16#{1616} is a series and not a number, as we appreciate that 1616 is a number and {1616} is a string.
 
@HostileFork Doesn't default though, it'll require the base. Perhaps not a fatal flaw.
Could even try #16/1616 ... but I really don't mean to step on any NewPath ideas.
#/1616.
 
4:26 AM
@MarkI Could always change binary literals to default to the base-10 equivalent of their content. Then things could be consistent.
 
It's not that bad.
 
Avoid stepping on NewPath, please. :-)
Technically you'd be all right there, since natural issues shouldn't be able to start with a digit
But I'd like to see slashes die out in usages where they are not path related.
>> help //
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    value1 // value2

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns the remainder of first value divided by second.
    // is an op value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value1 (scalar!)
    value2 (scalar!)
 
Dead in Ren Garden now, along with <>.
 
I have an idea that'll make your day @HostileFork. (I hope.)
An extension of the word-escaping proposal.
We've discussed ^(tab) and friends, right?
 
4:38 AM
Yes, and how they are a distinct set from HTML5 entities, and hence to keep HTML5 entities balanced we'd need ^[...] for those instead...etc.
 
And what's in the core of that expression?
A ... you guessed it ... word.
 
In that case, sure.
 
So, basically, an entire word space (minus some builtins) becomes available for block notations.
 
Hm. What kind of block would you put in an escape?
 
@HostileFork What kind of block notation? I can think of a few, comments, formatting directives ...
Wow. I didn't even think of putting blocks in there. ^([code]). Brilliant!
 
4:43 AM
@MarkI It's possible. It's also possible with Plan Minus Four to do &[...] or &(...) or $[...] and $<...> etc. etc.
 
@HostileFork Of course. But the escape-indicator does stand out, making hat versions just that little bit more special :)
 
If that's opened up, along with all the xxx[...] then putting too much pressure on caret to do anything but generate a codepoint could be confusing. I think it's best if it stands out for "always meaning that"
 
@HostileFork And don't forget &"" or &{} as well!
@HostileFork As usual, you are wise beyond your years. I am guessing you're about, 200?
 
@MarkI Hard to say anymore...
 
@HostileFork Not so sure about the $ versions, the blob characters '@#$%' are all pretty much spoken for, much like hat.
If we can use words and be literate, why be cryptic?
In case you hadn't noticed, I'm starting like hex better than #16, for Rebol anyways.
 
4:48 AM
@MarkI Well, # plays a lot of roles already, but @ is fairly underused. I've made the case for why @(...) should be literal object/map for good standout from [... @(...) ...]
 
@HostileFork I thought you were liking map![] ... am I way off?
 
As an alternate form, it may be acceptable. I'm not sure if construction syntax will enforce canon or have more than one kind. But I think to wrestle with the likes of JSON it will have to be a bit "neater" for the common case.
 
@HostileFork Hopefully not map"" neater :)
 
five new lest tests during night! four just tested the predefined data, fifth added one word. Someone is using it ;)
 
@rebolek Ah, the joys of data mining :)
 
4:56 AM
Guess I should watch what I type... :-)
 
@MarkI Yes, exactly :) If the server runs Redis and I wrote support for it, I would be crazy not to use it ;)
@HostileFork I log just time and content so it's anonymous :)
 
@rebolek Honestly officer! I was just trying to find out if that was a word! :)
 
hehe :)
I also removed the ability to run Rebol code, so now there is just one huge security hole :P
 
5:19 AM
>> equal? 'foo quote FoO:
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
>> select ['foo {Hello}] quote FoO:
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "Hello"
 
>> equal? <foo> {foo}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
5:20 AM
>> select [<foo> {Hello}] {foo}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
>> select [<foo> {Hello}] <foo>
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "Hello"
 
Yet another type of equal. SELECT-EQUAL? <sigh>
 
5:33 AM
Now that's something that will only come in yes-or-no, because there's no sort based on it. MATCH? or NOT-MATCH? or STRICT-MATCH? or STRICT-NOT-MATCH?
>> sort [foo: foo]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [foo foo:]
 
>> sort [FoO: foo foo: FoO]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [foo FoO FoO: foo:]
 
Proof that EQUAL? need not be contaminated by crazy broken ideas based on how select works.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:50 AM
'>> adaptable? <tag> "tag"
== #[true]

>> adaptable? <tag> "<tag>"
== #[true]

>> adaptable? <tag> "<tag"
== #[false]
Researching meanings for ~= for those who want "crappy comparisons at any cost". :-)
 
How about similar? ?
not-unlike?
close-enough?
 
almost?
fine-by-me?
 
i-cant-tell-the-difference?
 
i-dont-really-care-that-much?
 
i-cant-believe-its-not?
 
7:06 AM
@rgchris similar? is good. Although it starts with S and Rebmu uses S? for SAME? at the moment. :-) But it would probably have more use for SIMILAR? in practice.
My current thinking is it tries TO conversions both ways, and accepts it if either way produces equal? data.
'>> adaptable? 12-12-2012 "12-Dec-2012"
== true

>> adaptable? 12-Dec-2012 "12-12-2012"
== true

>> adaptable? 12-Dec-2012 "12-13-2012"
== false
It's not as useless as it may at first sound, and it may please those who thought it was acceptable to make 'foo = quote FoO: and such, which I'd like to see die.
So instead of making = completely terrible, it puts the terror into ~=
I still think we should roll for a while with "a" = #"A" and "A" == #"A" and see what happens. I am doubtful, in the scheme of the purposes of this language, that having those not be willing to test equal is worth the didactic cost...and don't see it as necessitating that [1] = 1 as well.
On the slope of 1 = 1.0 I see it as a helpful and necessary compromise to alleviate common mistakes, which would prevent more difficult-to-find problems than it would cause mental time bombs of people who think "strings are made up of strings".
Without experience of it going wrong, and seeing it go wrong, it's hard to say in advance. It trips up every new user and it trips up me frequently, where I'm fairly certain I'd have been just fine overall if it had "just worked".
@RebolBot
print mold to-string #"A"
print mold to-char "A"
print mold to-char "AA"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"A"
#"A"
#"A"
 
The first two are fine to have succeed. The third should fail.
@rgchris Going with similar?, dissimilar?, strict-similar?, and strict-dissimilar?. (are the strict versions necessary? I don't know, but they exist in 'possibility-space', because you do come down to equality tests eventually.)
lesser-or-similar? and those variants are possible as well. ~<=. (Abandon all hope ye who use such things.)
The real problem with those is what if it converts both ways, and would give a different answer on one branch from the other? Like converting a to b's type would wind up saying true, but when you convert b to a's type it would say false. You'd have to do both conversions and throw an error if both succeeded and disagreed.
It is now so officially twisted that I have to include it. :-) It's called Ren Garden for a reason... plant things, see what grows. Cultivate.
 
 
4 hours later…
11:08 AM
        all [char? :a | string? :b | tail? next :b] [
            lib/equal? a b/1
        ]

        all [string? :a | char? :b | tail? next :a] [
            lib/equal? a/1 b
        ]
I'm definitely getting a strong like for the visual impact of | as an expression barrier. I believe there is a good trick for making it extra cheap in the evaluator without hacking it up too much.
Basically have a native function recognized by its signature that you don't even bother to call it. It reports that it's a NATIVE! but when the evaluator sees it, it just says "oh, I know that pointer...don't bother calling it. It always returns #[unset!]
It's not perfect because there are functions that don't choke on unset!. So a separate BARRIER! type would be better that refused to act as any parameter to anything. It also doesn't defend against quoting.
 
well, if you temporarily define >> |: does [], you can write:

>> true? all [1 > 0 | 2 > 2]
== false
 
11:23 AM
@pekr Yup, that's what I'm using today. Just saying it could be more efficient even in that reduced functionality if it were a native that wound up being a function inspected by pointer that never got called.
A real BARRIER! that "didn't react with anything" would be a difficult proposition to invent, because things have to be able to traverse blocks and get the values of things and process them.
Probably would invent more problems than it solved trying to make it both exist and not react. UNSET! is already weird enough.
 
11:58 AM
If someone had bothered to sit down and actually design the English language, we wouldn't need hash functions for words. They'd be distributed statistically according to commonality. Abbreviations would have a lower collision rate. Dictionaries wouldn't need tab indicators printed to the edge of pages for finding the page for a letter... you'd just take your letter index over 26 and be right there.
 
12:11 PM
`>> blk: [b c d]
>> loop x [lit a each blk 1 to 3] [probe x]
a
b
c
d
1
2
Hmmm. Technically all iteration could just fold into the LOOP dialect.
each x [1 2 3] [...] => loop x [each [1 2 3]] [...]
 
12:48 PM
posted on March 31, 2015 by draegtun

[Reddit] Try Lest (online)

 
1:04 PM
@rebolek ^--- You're famous! :-)
I must not have a reddit account. I seem to have never replied to any of this
 
@HostileFork nice :)
 
"I find it amazing that this guy took forever just to come to the realization that printf calls write. This is one of the first things undergrad CS students learn. Maybe this guy never had any formal education. Write is a system call and printf is a library function. All library functions that do this sort of stuff at some point end up making a system call unless they're doing straight assembly." ... heh, never read that far. At least it's a -6.
As a general rule, avoid reading comments on the Internet.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:39 PM
Wishes on Rebol Community Development
Not sure how this would work, but it is an interesting excercise to think about. Something that bridges between unix and rebol syntax like: ls | greb 'some alpha ".reb"' (assuming a few more bu...
Looking at the sadly (mostly) inactive Trello board to see if there's anything there worth picking up on. (Trello is really good, slick, usable.) @pekr - that is a good idea --^
 
2:55 PM
:-)
 
@pekr One big problem is that PARSE is not designed to run on a stream, only a string or structure in memory. grep is often run on many large files. I asked about this before...
3
Q: Using PARSE on a PORT! value

HostileForkI tried using PARSE on a PORT! and it does not work: >> parse open %test-data.r [to end] ** Script error: parse does not allow port! for its input argument Of course, it works if you read the data in: >> parse read open %test-data.r [to end] == true ...but it seems it would be useful to...

I will point out that when people have ideas and need bridges that RenCpp opens a lot of doors.
 
3:15 PM
@HostileFork Ah yes, I remember that lesson the first day of CS 151, right along with learning (cons 1 ()).
 
@kealist The remark sounds like they're suggesting that I took a long time to learn something.
Um, I've seen CORBA-based IOCTL replacements...
 
It doesn't seem as though that one read much of the article
The internet, yay!
@rebolek any way you can make the input box wider? It looks quite unbalanced on the two monitors I've used (Firefox).
 
3:41 PM
Hello @GreggIrwin... thanks for thinking the issues being raised are worthwhile :-)
@GreggIrwin Right now the most important issue in thinking and compromise, for which if you might weigh in, is Plan Minus Four From Outer Space. It accepts much of Ladislav's premise about the importance of space significance while revoking significance between a trailing bracket or paren and an opening bracket or paren. So if you might think through the implications on that, it would be good.
 
I've thought about it a bit, but not in depth. One of those things where I need to type out a lot of stuff and see how it looks and works. Having a prototype evaluator would help with that, but also a lot of work. Syntax highlighting will help, too, of course.
Came here because Doc mentioned consensus building on Red hex notation. <base>#<value> seems best to me right now, as I posted on the Red issue tracker.
 
@GreggIrwin You'll find that on Red Development Team Chat
@GreggIrwin Regarding having a prototype implementation to experiment with: @MarkI has been working on l-scan.c and making some of the modifications and thinking about escaping and such. Hopefully one of the issues he's looking into. With the plan, I've begun to support a construction syntax that is actually type![...] or type!{...} with no space...based on the idea that if spaces on leading brackets became required ubiquitously...
(e.g. while[][] says I don't know what that is but works for while [][]... then the missing space would begin to "jump out" from the psychological landscape)
 
Thanks. Couldn't find it here, but going into the past did lead me to your LOOP dialect talk. I proposed a new general LOOP func some time back. Meant to solve things in issue.cc/r3/1993 and work like LOOP, REPEAT, CFOR, FOR, and FOR with a default step value.
 
@GreggIrwin I'm actually at a point now where I've returned to FOR-EACH to align with MAP-EACH and any other family of -EACH for the itemwise iteration, and LOOP for the dialected form, with STEP my current choice for the positional iteration where you can tweak the series at each step (even shift to another series). Then FOR gets given to CFOR.
 
On PMFFOS, I'm also still looking for the "big get" it buys us. Waiting for the AHA! to kick in.
 
3:55 PM
@kealist Done.
 
@HostileFork, mine is done if you want to compare or dissect.
 
@GreggIrwin Solves significant consistency issues, frees a lot of lexical space, doesn't kill the thing most people were objecting to. Lets [... @(...) ...] provide a nice mix of a visible distinguished array and key/value to compete with JSON (that's why I like the parens to add it, and @(...) for literal map). You don't worry about things like "what if I want @ to be legal standalone".
@GreggIrwin Absolutely. I'm looking to start collecting and integrating everything good into Ren Garden to show the big picture. See Rebol Proposals (not well organized, but better than nothing, and many parts showing GREAT promise...I can't say enough good things about NewPrint/Combine in practice.)
Also looking for a MATH dialect. Any MATH dialect to answer the "why do you have weird operator precedence". If anyone has ever made a stab at it, I'll take any stab over none.
It doesn't matter if people stick with it, it just has to be there to go "oh yeah, if you want to... you dialect that... but if you stick around you'll see why we don't like it."
 
Has anyone done a larger, concrete example of PMFFOS to show the benefits. Reading on CC I'm still not getting excited.
On STEP, I have a func of the same name, which works like SUCC in Ruby.
 
@GreggIrwin @earl is the one who persuaded me and says it needs a new writeup. There are simply a number of consistency problems currently and it's nice to have something that is a balance of Ladislav's extremism with the four things people actually would use, while solving nasties like load "#[...]" being distinct from load "# [...]" without having to give up ideas like # for literal none (if for instance that is interesting)
There's an absence of comfort if you cannot have a simple rule by which you know when x[...] is different from x [...] or not. (where [...] could be any Y.) Plan Minus Four is a balance tidying the picture.
 
4:10 PM
I'll re-read CC #2094 when I get a chance.
See ya.
 
@GreggIrwin Well I think the important thing is the evidence from your code and making a case of why you think things like <foo><bar>< baz >10{x }(a + b) are good.
@GreggIrwin Send a PR or link to your loop dialect source, I'll definitely take a look. I can double check if it's in that CC ticket, but if not...
 
@rebolek much better. Thank you
 
@kealist Also, set-word! is finally available for all types: x: "finally!" span x and templates use new syntax that does not require datatype specification: t: template [value] [span value] t "hello"
 
print [4 + 3 * 2 eval [4 + 3 * 2]]
14 10
@rebolek Nice
 
@kealist That meets the baseline requirement! The going name (promoted by DocKimbel, dunno if he came up with it) is MATH.
I'll throw it in!
 
4:31 PM
@HostileFork Nice. I need to rebuild RenCpp. Haven't been doing much lately
 
@kealist I'm only just back to coding with it. I've done enough rumination. Some nebulous things have come into focus, I really think Plan Minus Four, Caret Escaping, better rules for Natural Tags, and some of these other details are honing the edges. I can feel it as I work on the helpers and proposals. It's about seeing a "portrait of reform" in before-and-after code (that involves tossing REFORM :-P)
 
 
3 hours later…
7:37 PM
 C:\Users\kealist\Documents\GitHub\test\rencpp\src\rebol-binding\m-gc.cpp:312:6: error: suggest braces around e
mpty body in an 'if' statement [-Werror=empty-body]
      ; //Dump_Frame(VAL_OBJ_FRAME(val), 4);
      ^
 
@kealist Yup, thanks...got that on Travis CI. Fixing now, also there's apparently a new complaint in GCC 4.9.2 that @Adrian is getting that's not in that.
This is a thing about C++, when you turn the warnings up; the compilers aren't shy about new versions adding new warnings with -Wall. And if you are of the school of thought that all warnings are errors, then you hit these things.
 
8:02 PM
@kealist Should be fixed, be sure to update all (submodule rebol-proposals too) if however you're doing doesn't just do that. Now... with MATH (a.k.a. eval)
(Adrian's error apparently originated from trying to build rebol/rebol on 64-bit, the other is just a warning in a newer compiler than the VM I'm in is using.)
 
I was just using a git pull to get the updates. Fails during build still. What submodules are there?
nevermind, found it, let me see how to do that
 
@earl The Ren Garden ad-hoc proposals now have their own repo, for shared experimenting. Started some comparison operator digesting as I try to get the picture and formulate my 0.02. The funniest thing is putting everything you (and mostly I) hate into similar?... but maybe its existence could get people to back off some of the less tolerable aspects of EQUAL?
 
I think I got it figured out now
 
8:27 PM
for future reference:
git submodule update --init
git submodule update --remote --merge
@HostileFork Hadn't gotten around to trying the checkbox but works smoothly as a switch
Ren Garden is an excellent place to test ideas
 
8:53 PM
@HostileFork How to parse a string to newline? I read a file using input-output.red binding and I want to process it line by line.
 
9:05 PM
txt: {1
2
3
4
5}

parse txt [
    some [
          end |
          newline |
          copy line to newline
                   (print ["Do something with" line]) |
          copy line to end
                   (print ["Do something with" line])
    ]
]
 
9:15 PM
posted on March 31, 2015 by Joshua

I sincerely need a Rebol expert to help me develop three programs. I don't know what the rules,  developer prices and other requirements are. If Rebol has such a programme,  I'd love to put up my projects and get d prices a developer would be ready to accept. I want to change my office programs from Visual Basic to Rebol. But it will definitely take me a long time to learn t

 
 
2 hours later…
11:08 PM
@HostileFork This is possibly a little picky, but I prefer #[ ] @[ ] for literal object/map types (don't recall which is object, which is map) and punt construction syntax to #( ). Reason being that [ ] represent the major container type in Rebol and that object/map are similarly major containers. Not a dealbreaker, but #( ) doesn't carry as much weight, while it does have that aside feel that suits construction syntax. [ #(none) #(string! "Foo" 2) ]
 
11:23 PM
Also, is/should there a way to invoke the construction syntax dialect? construct [string! "Foo" 2] == "oo"
(I know, construct means something else)
construct [none] == #(none)
construct [true] == #(true)
construct [string! "Foo" 2] == "oo"
 
11:58 PM
Chris, seems like MAKE could be made to understand it.
 

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