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12:08 AM
For those who might be interested, $() and $[] are also available syntactical forms.
They may not scream map!, but ... they're there.
 
12:34 AM
@MarkI Good point...
I don't understand the bracket thing. What are you trying to do?
 
12:55 AM
@rgchris Your topaz demo line says foreach [a b] [1 2 3 4 5 6] [prin mold a prin " and " print mold b]. That manages to use 3 words I'd like to deprecate in one example :-)
Still working on what mold should be though. each [a b] [1 2 3 4 5 6] [print [mold a {and} mold b]]
@rgchris I remember you had a JSON compatibility gripe at some point. I don't remember what it was. Related to nones, or something?
 
@HostileFork Could probably fix each pretty quickly—the print part might be harder. Topaz has quite a few holes in it, not sure it's combine ready.
@HostileFork Don't rightly remember—might have been the spaces-in-words thing?
Or literal map!
 
Hmmm
I thought it had to do with nones. But I did bring it up because I think the caret escaping...while taking away a "lone" character...will improve quite a few things
You can still put a caret in a word, it will just be ^^
 
Could be literal none/true/false as well. But JSON is also nominally case-sensitive—perhaps not by spec, but that JSON clients in other languages are case-sensitive.
 
This literal none/true/false thing is a definite thorn.
 
1:12 AM
Yp. As @MarkI says, $ is still a relatively unused character $none $true $false could be a solution, but then there's a fear we're veering into the character-soup inherent in PHP or the like...
Or even expanding on your dislike of datatype naming.
 
Grumble.
 
1:36 AM
Indeed.
 
2:17 AM
A lone $ for a none! value?
 
I like the idea of the dollar sign meaning "nothing"
2
Sort of a commentary :-)
I'm taking a shot at switching hostilefork.com over to @rebolek's markdown instead of mine. Running through the bumps. Are there any other Rebol markdown implementations floating around out there?
Just hit a case: *('*')*
Imagine those inner characters are backticks not apostrophes
(*)
Because of the way the parse match rule is written, it's matching the asterisks before the backticks.
 
2:52 AM
@HostileFork I was trying to find a case where a space between open brackets would be helpful.
 
Ah.
 
But I actually don't mind mold's blocks-get-one-space rule.
Sometimes I even think of it as kinda like the spaces are "attached" to the brackets.
Whereas in paths the slashes are only "attached" to each other, if at all.
Like the tines of a fork!!!
 
3:14 AM
@HostileFork MakeDoc (my version) supports some MarkDown syntax out of the box—including links—but I'm still tinkering with it.
@HostileFork The may get there first :)
 
 
3 hours later…
6:40 AM
Random idea. Would it be fun to have the bot search twitter for any ">> " prompts in tweets and reply with an evaluation?
Probably breaks a few twitter rules and would need careful throttling
Maybe responding to rebol> prompts would be a better proposition
 
 
2 hours later…
9:10 AM
@HostileFork After all money is just that.
 
@HostileFork Wow, bug reports! Thank you very much.
 
@rebolek Current build of hostilefork.com is with your md.reb! ... I'll let you know if I notice any more. Check this one out from above: *('*')* (where the apostrophes are actually backticks)
That may represent a sort of foundational problem in terms of how Markdown works, where sort of "phases" are needed. Because the backticks that don't do markdown need to "trump" the asterisk search
You can't find the matching asterisk pair before you find the matching backtick pair
 
Hm, easy (but wrong) fix would be to just switch order of parse rules, but then if you switch * with ' you have the same problem.
 
9:27 AM
@rebolek The original hack I did just to get my stuff going probably points to some other cases for testing.
Because that was just the stuff I hit as I bumped along.
I turned -- into — because I use them a lot, but apparently that's supposed to be---three hyphens.
Not supported in chat, apparently
A "non-standard" extension used some places
 
>> do qyz.cz/md.reb markdown "(*)"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {<a href="i">i</a>(<a href="code">code</a>*<a href="/code">/code</a>)<a href="/i">/i</a>}
 
OMG what is that.
returns "<em>('</em><code>)*" in console.
(**)`
HAH!
So I guess I just switch the parse rules and have the same output (and problem ) as StackOverflow Markdown ;-)
 
Hm? (*)
StackOverflow seems to do it right
Multiple passes seems easiest
 
@HostileFork Yes, it does right the original, I was testing '(*'*)' (switch apostrophe for backtick)
 
@HostileFork Do they have a test suite?
 
@rebolek Various directories of .md files and expected output: github.com/vfmd/vfmd-test/tree/master/tests/block_level/…
 
Wonderful. Let me guess, They're both slightly incompatible ;-)
 
I say go with whatever StackOverflow and GitHub use. If that's commonmark, then that.
 
9:42 AM
CommonMark is at the moment the closest to a standardised and agreed upon Markdown dialect.
vfmd and several other efforts predate that, but haven't really gained traction.
(And of course, John Gruber doesn't want any of that.)
 
Of course
If only Markdown were specified and testable in the first place ...
 
@earl Does commonmark have a test suite? Code link doesn't seem to work.
 
(Link works for me.)
 
@davewiner And that’s what’s flawed with CommonMark. They want to make things easier for programmers as a primary goal. They miss the point.
 
9:46 AM
@earl Thanks, I will try %md.reb against it.
 
If a programmer cannot adhere to some kind of spec, you as a user cannot predict what the rendering of a given input is. Gruber regularly misses that point.
 
Seems so.
 
If you haven't seen it, there's a thing called "Babelmark", which compares the output of dozens of Markdown impls.
The results are hilarious (or depressing, depending on your general attitude).
 
Yes, I know that.
 
@earl "The world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel."
 
9:59 AM
F*ck you, R3 module system.Why can't I reload a module? How am I supposed to do development? Restart console every time I change something? Aaaargh...
 
 
1 hour later…
11:29 AM
@rebolek - beware - BrianH wants to backport it to R2, or even Red IIRC :-)
 
@pekr He said he will fix it first.
At least I hope.
 
Well, the design might suffer by actually ppl not giving a try. Similar to once R3 GUI, once Graham started to use it, he found many obstacles and most probably bugs to fix ...
 
 
3 hours later…
2:24 PM
36
Q: Who wrote this programing saying? "Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live."

beatak Always code as if the guy who ends up maintaining your code will be a violent psychopath who knows where you live. I found this at somebody's blog, and it introduces as Rick Osborne's. But I google this, and other people says: Martin Golding's, John Woods' and Damian Conway's... Yes,...

Google must trust me. (?) In less than 12 hours this article made the first page of results for various tests of rtbkit with other words
using a non-logged in browser I don't generally use, ever. though I think we really need feedback or measurement to how the view we're seeing of information--due to personalization or locality--is drifting from various common baseline views.
(The date is when the article was started, not when it was published)
 
2:42 PM
Well Google, the feeling is not mutual! I don't trust YOU. :-P
 
2:59 PM
@rebolek :D
@HostileFork I think of Chris Duncan, christopherduncan.com/thecareerprogrammer.aspx
 
Hello @gnat. I see you are an actual gnat. Not just a clever name then. :-)
"On the Internet, no one knows you are gnat."
 
Had to buy a camera to get a good picture!
 
(After many years of fearing discrimination, I decided to use my real picture. It was hard at first, but I think all cutlery should be willing to admit who they are.)
 
@HostileFork The author using Markdown is every bit the programmer that the programmer implementing Markdown is. The language might be minimal and more forgiving, but a language it is all the same.
 
@gnat A Highland Midge, perhaps? Something I came to believe about imagery is a bit like what Sagan said: "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe"
 
3:11 PM
Ah, the midgie—don't miss them at all...
 
@rgchris The thing about MarkDown's appeal is that it not require any kind of processing to be readable. In that sense, it's USCII-ish...the font is a layer on top of meaning that can be understood without it. So people need to remember that important bit; the document should be plenty comprehensible without markdown run.
 
The scourge of a guid summer evening, clouds of itches and scratches.
 
Well, As I found out the hard way some gnats are vegetarian but some can bite. Something about their saliva being an anticoagulant.
 
@HostileFork Isn't the point of any language to be comprehensible without being run?
 
Florida is Mosquito Heaven. So I'd like to keep the lizards when they show up, except I have to evict them because of the cat.
@rgchris Some of them. :-)
@gnat Well in any case, welcome and feel free to tell your story. What brings you to these projects, history, etc.
 
3:17 PM
@rgchris Midget, real pita. Nasty biters
 
@HostileFork Hm, yes—well have to give even the creators of PHP the benefit of the doubt that they were trying. Right?
 
Havent programmed in 20+ years when I had a nervous breakdown trying to maintain a codebase on a unix box and somehow included an -r flag on the rm command.
 
@iArnold And they love it when all us pasty Scots dig out our shorts and short sleeves for the brief times when the climate is pleasant.
 
@gnat I've had days like that. I did a git reset --hard recently when I meant to say git reset --soft
The good news being that I have a running snapshot backup drive so I only lost about 20 minutes instead of 2 days
 
So one day I was thinking of doing some coding and got to thinking about what language. Thought I should do something more modern and expressive than C or assembly. Saw the redmonks expressiveness ranking where rebol is shown but never discussed and thought I would look around.
 
3:24 PM
@gnat Interesting... I wasn't aware anyone knew what that was.
(Never myself heard of redmonks)
But saw the slide
@gnat So you were thinking you said of looking into a kind of sed alternative?
You definitely might start by learning PARSE, for sure.
It may not get you everything you want, but it would show you a different model for framing the problem.
 
Mostly thought it would be a decent learning project. And I am not as fond of binary files as some people. I saw you're not to fond of regex. I need to work through your parse tutorial.
Q Rebol is compact like Forth was compact. Did C.S. use a threaded dictionary structure? But, if so, how is Red going to manage to keep the threading while also getting c like speed?
 
@gnat There is very little threading capability or thought within Rebol. It has endeavored to try and minimize global state, but no thread abilities as of yet. In fact, I have written (what I believe to be) the first multithreaded Rebol program. Video: youtube.com/watch?v=0exDvv5WEv4
 
@HostileFork Just FYI, #14 and #16 are basically same bug. The rules are currently not recursive. I'm thinking about a fix for this, I think I know how, but have to test it first (it requires lot of rewrites :-) )
 
I looked briefly at that. I thought it was just intended to let you call C++ from Rebol, but it looks like more of a debugger or something?
 
3:40 PM
@gnat Well, it's a graphical console for which it's easy to add features and link to things. The current Rebol console has frustrated people as not being very sophisticated. In essence, the API exported as a "C binding for Rebol" is presently not much more than "evaluate this string and give me back a string". Should you ever need to DO a block you "need to ask Carl"
So there is a C++ binding which is full featured and modern
And then I thought it would be a good test to make a console to demonstrate how thorough the interface was
 
Not sure if you understood my question. How does Rebol (and now Red) squeeze so many words in such little space? Half a meg.... very Forth like in density and having lots of words. When I mentioned Forth threading I didn't mean multithreading
 
@gnat I'm afraid my only experience with Forth was trying to talk to them and then a stalker started looking for where I was on satellite photos. So "threaded dictionary" isn't a term I'm familiar with.
The only secret to Rebol's smallness is basic refusal to keep linking in the next best thing. If you control dependencies, and focus, you don't have to be too magical to stay in half a megabyte.
It subsets libraries to just functions it needs, vs linking to them or embedding them in their entirety.
I wrote an automated subsetter for zlib, so that it could be done by a script vs. manual. Which seems more sensible to me.
We discussed whether or not the small increase in size from using the patched version was worth replacing the previous handmade file: github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/155
 
I read C.S. citing both Forth and Lisp as two major influences on Rebol. Forth had a lot of words. When you added a word it was indistinguishable from a native. Everything except the absolutely basic was implemented as a thread (pointers) linking one word to another to another so there was code reuse everywhere. It was possible to use less space in Forth than in pure assembly, for that reason (nobody could do all that compression in their head in assembly).
 
@gnat No, Rebol does not use threaded code in its current implementations.
 
Anyway it is so exciting to see things don't have to take 100 gigabytes for the compiler and scaffolding! :-)
2
I was beginning to worry about the fate of mankind, not to mention programming. Red is going to be SUCH a shock to the world.
2
 
3:53 PM
@gnat Fortunately, that's a trend that's taking ground much more widely in recent years.
Not all is lost, on the complexity front!
 
@gnat If you're not aware, Red's implementation (presently) is essentially as a number of Rebol scripts which are "encapped" with a Rebol2 interpreter. So when you run red.exe (or whatever on your platform) there are some compressed scripts glued into the executable which are extracted and run. Which is to say that if Red felt like it, it could expose the Rebol2 interpreter and run any Rebol2 code as well as compile any Red code. All in < 1 MB
 
I don't know if I will be able to make any sense of it at all, but i will have to look at some point. Curiosity and all that.
 
@gnat While it's nice to see the old ways having some resurgence, they are really just an epicycle of the real old ways. :-) as per Ren Garden's namesake
But hey...why not have all that and air conditioning too?
 
Yeah, let's get back to that. So tell me more about rengarden. Did you just want to access C++ libraries or embed red in a C++ app or neither or ?? And what was the namesake??
 
REN is an attempt to name the common data format we hope to standardize between Rebol and Red. I don't know if it was Gregg's idea or Rebolek's idea or whose, but they were the ones talking about the need to give it a name...the way XML and JSON have names that detach them from a particular assumed runtime.
It has the nice property that it's not really taken as a file extension in Googlespace we know. So .ren fits in with .reb and .red and .reds (Red/System)
It also has a nice property that the character named "Ren" in Chinese and Japanese have positive associations. It means sort of "Human" in Chinese, and "Refinement" in Japanese. (Though they're characters...getting too carried away would be like saying "E" meant energy in English because of E=mc^2)
I started looking into a C++ binding because DocKimbel asked me what I thought a binding would look like for Red to C++, as I know a fair bit of C++
I hadn't really thought about it, and I said "I'll think about it". I did not intend to write one.
But then I had some ideas and I said "hm, I wonder if..."
They turned out to be (what I believe to be) good ideas.
And I realized I could make those good ideas work against either Rebol or Red, so it seemed a good time to try and push for the "Ren" movement (vs calling it RedCpp or RebCpp)
 
4:04 PM
@HostileFork A brief history of Ren.
 
For a time I called my test app "Ren Workbench" and then I got a "goofy" idea to allude to Zen Gardens by calling it Ren Garden. I changed the name and looked at it for a while and decided goofier might be better.
Then, I decided goofier was definitely better.
And it's not so goofy.
 
Ren originated on the "REBOL4" AltMe world, roughly April 2013.
Someone posted a link to TOML, which prompted DocKimbel to think out loud that Rebol missed a huge opportunity as simple data exchange language.
@rebolek then replied, and I'll quote that:
> rebolek on "Links chat" in the REBOL4 AltMe world, 2013-Apr-05: "Yes, let's take subset of Rebol syntax, call it for example RENO (Rebol Notation) and promote it as data exchange format, not a language. If we can write import/export modules for few popular languages, it may catch on and attract people to Rebol."
 
How do you see it being used with Red? I think I'm probably not following you too well. You said it was a data format. But it allows C++ to be called from Red and visa versa? Does it allows red to be embedded in a C++ program?
 
@earl Though efforts to define 'Rebol—the data format' do predate that...
 
@gnat It's close to allowing Red to be embedded in a C++ program; Red needs to offer the "generalized construct or apply hook" defined here, which I imagine would not be a huge challenge: github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/include/rencpp/…
 
4:09 PM
Ok. I think I understand better now. As I was lurking I noticed all the discussions on formatting...
 
This initial thought of RENO prompted several others (who, I think, like me, had a long-standing buried thought that this really should have been done long ago) to agree. Among them Bolek, Nenad, Gregg, Graham, Maarten, myself and others.
Bolek then went ahead and created a Github project for it. Gregg came up with the "REN" - Readable Exchange Notation name, which was quickly adopted.
(And later contracted to just "Readable Notation".)
 
You guys are so far beyond me. I think I'm going to learn an immense amount. If my head doesn't explode first! :-/
 
@gnat Relative to these people, I'm "new"... :-)
 
@gnat - let your head explore, not explode :-)
 
Then a discussion over several days started as to set some basic rules what should be in Ren and how it should relate to Rebol/Red. Main participants were (in no particular order) Bolek, Gregg, Nenad, Maxim, Adrian, Ladislav, Oldes, Peter and me. Though many others of the regular Rebolers voiced their opinion.
Again, Bolek took the initiative and stub out some initial stuff on Github.
 
4:13 PM
Yeah, but I've read your blog. I've literally not programmed anything at all for 20 years. Been building various businesses. The thought of building a virtual business model (so I could manage things remotely with so much reliance on on-site managers) was what brought be back to look at languages.
 
@gnat What kinds of business?
 
And that's basically where Ren stands. It really needs someone taking the lead and spec'ing out a solid foundation.
 
@earl That differs from everything else by...
 
And as @rgchris of course rightly mentions, that has a large overlap with properly specifying Rebol syntax in general. And there are several efforts with various motivation which predate Red (by a decade, even) to that effect.
 
Well... I had a software business in Osborne 1 days. :-} Didn't really become too much. Real estate investment/management, manufacturing and distributing food products, agriculture, hospitality (restaurant/ Inn). Planning to start a school soon,.
 
4:16 PM
I suppose, since Douglas Crockford did not reply to my followup, I shall post his reply. (I have no problem with him posting what I wrote publicly.) He merely replied:
 
The nice thing about Ren is that it could be easier to do, because of a slightly limited scope (pure data exchange first). However, there are many (@rgchris included, if I remember correctly) which take issue with that and think that the only valid data exchange format must be one that fully encompasses the needs of the programming languages as well.
 
I would take a more radical approach.

Introduce chevrons as the preferred way of writing strings:

    «This looks so sophisticated.»

Then deprecate { }. It is an easy transition. A simple Rebol script can accomplish it.

Now { } is free for object building.
 
@HostileFork And make the break from ASCII...
 
@HostileFork I must have my APL keyboard lying around somewhere ...
 
would freeing {} for objects be handful? We have so many options #[], @[],@(), etc.
 
4:19 PM
"A simple Rebol script can accomplish it." drives home that this is mocking; as well as it is not a suitable reply to the friendly tone of the source message.
 
“I think this looks even more sophisticated.”
 
@earl My contention remains that there is nothing required by 'Rebol—the programming language' that can not be accommodated by 'Rebol—the data exchange language'.
 
...but probably harder to see, and indistinguishable from " in “some fonts”
 
@rgchris I know, we had that before. I appreciate your view.
 
@earl Just clarifying :)
 
4:21 PM
@rgchris Also appreciated :)
I have a differing belief in that reducing the size of the data exchange language will improve chances for wider adoption.
 
btw - why Carl came with the {} for strings in the first place? Was it more to allow easy escaping/allowing of " inside the string, or that it looks more like a block, for multiline strings? Could not " " just be used for multiline too, as is in normal text?
 
I also think that multiple "levels" are something that could and probably should be done for the notation. So a "core" or "level 0" which gives you just the typical datatypes that are widely available, and then more comprehensive levels built on top of that.
Mostly, these are very practical concerns.
 
@rgchris Per Crockford's "point" if you will call it that, is that literal object notation is more important than string notation.
I disagree, in general.
Says I:
"If you wish to pointedly suggest the benefit of taking {...} for
strings is questionable in the scheme of things...well, perhaps. It
depends strongly on what your scheme of things is."
"Most of my professional programming is in C++11, which is a distinctly
different domain. I'm rarely all that concerned about having to
escape strings in it. Because if I wind up with big blobs of strings
in my code, I'm probably doing something wrong anyway."
"But with Rebol the domain is different, and repeatedly value has
emerged from the choice. Recent example: we have a chat robot that is
able to execute code in nearly any language, even when that language
doesn't have the same parsing rules. That language's code is wrapped
in {...} and we are able to hold it in that string unescaped. By a
similar token, it can be used to comment out code. And it makes for
pretty and coherent string literals, also that [" you " don't " wind "
up " wondering " if " you're " in " a " string " or " not "]."
 
If objects are so common, is it conceivable to swap the function of (...) and the proposed @(...)?
 
"SO... your joke aside...the language got along pretty well doing what
it did for its scope of application without object literals, or map
literals, etc. As you should know, there are a lot of nice things you
can do with imperative structural pre-composition that you simply
cannot do with a literal form. So imperative creation is going to
continue to be the main thing in code. But the day and time comes
where you need to do some serialization of a sort."
Well, who am I to argue with "Famous People"
 
4:27 PM
Or if we are to break with ASCII—why not use higher characters for OBJECT! notation?
 
From my view, breaking with ASCII undermines the entire point of why do any of this.
 
@rgchris Sure.
 
The whole puzzle here is the constraint.
APL already did that. This is different.
 
@HostileFork I'm not suggesting we do, just if we do.
I appreciate that {} is not used for any block type— [ ] and ( ) are much cleaner shapes.
2
I pity JSON with it's curly-bracketed objects.
 
Well if it made you famous you're apparently entitled to mock people.
So much for pity, eh?
 
4:30 PM
@HostileFork - why should we care about what Crockford suggests? Remember - it was Rebol who inspired him, not the vice versa. So OK, he shared his idea, now you don't need to take it for granted, no?
Let's just do it in a right way, whatever the right way turns to be :-)
 
@pekr Eh, whatever. Just putting it on the record. Weird what people want to put on the record: 2ality.com/2012/01/negative-comments.html
Paint a picture, write a legacy. It's up to you. :-/ (some do it better than others)
 
@HostileFork I'm not convinced he's mocking.
 
As they saying goes: "Sarcasm on the internet is like winking on the phone."
 
@WiseGenius I am.
It's his way of saying: "You're wasting your time, it will never work. I'm smarter than you guys. Look how famous I am."
"Look how long you work for nothing."
 
Is there, possibly, a good article (or post) giving an overview of the issues/need? I read a little bit about JSON and markup language addressing XML complexity but, remember, I haven't had to keep up with software issues for 20 years.... (Sound like I'm rip van winkel or that caveman who got frozen in time:}
 
4:37 PM
Why not start strings with 💩?
 
Found that stupid patent block. I thought I'd tossed it into a river or something.
@gnat The needs for Ren, you mean?
 
@HostileFork He has done well (even if it was just a distillation of the Rebol ethos), but imagine if he'd been a little more ambitious with JSON, e.g. date literals, words, etc. Part of the design rationale was that JSON was a subset of Javascript, but now literal evaluation is discouraged in Javascript, so what was the point in that constraint?
 
@rgchris It almost certainly helped adoption quite a bit.
 
@rgchris It is interesting, and something we might think about, given that even JavaScript now is discouraged from eval. Which is a point we might consider, when facing that gnarly stuff about the word TRUE vs the value true.
 
Though I'd also be very happy if something more ambitious would have taken off as JSON did.
 
4:42 PM
The driving success factor of JSON was that it wasn't XML.
And yes, the "don't eval" ethos arose later. But it's like any virus. It caught because the security concerns of eval were just far off enough to not hit the initial adoption. By the time it got critical mass where you needed a JSON.js, it was too late.
 
@earl Why not follow up quickly with something more idealised when it was clear that while compatibility was initially convenient, it wasn't really? Missed opportunity.
Especially when you have Rebol in your back pocket...
 
@rgchris I'm quite sure that it will still be a long while (many years) until something with literal dates will be able to take off just as JSON did.
 
Anyway, I was hoping he'd have useful insights being a Rebol programmer. While I started my response fairly straight-man, I did end it with my own snark.
"The formulator of JSON did a good job of dealing with the tradeoffs
within a language that was "less than perfect"...in adapting it to a
certain need. It included elements like forward thinking about
whether or not to permit comments in the format, and a general concept
of how to look ahead for problems in the spec."
"...and that's the person I was looking to get in touch with. :-/"
"If that is indeed you, I'd like to ask for a more sincere
consideration of the question, incorporating your knowledge of the
language and playing field. Outside of the non-negotiability of curly
braces being taken away from strings forcing something like the @
signs, is there anything else you feel is somehow fundamentally
problematic?"
"You have said that Rebol was an inspiration for JSON. But this shows
(for instance) a thing Rebol did not have a notation for. Had you
thought of a solution to the problem before? If so, how did it
differ? How would this proposal not have satisfied you if you had a
time machine, and if JSON had never been conceived?"
"That is the sort of thing I was looking for..."
And I didn't sign that one.
But I wrote it, I was just responding in kind. Equivalent Retaliation
 
@HostileFork Oh those Americans ...
That's usually the right time to quote Marthin Luther King Jr, but I'll spare you that :)
 
@HostileFork Looking forward to the response :)
 
4:50 PM
@earl I'm pro Martin Luther King Jr. quotes, but I think history shouldn't be sanitized. The experience left me a bit feeling like I've been contributing to the problem, like "hey this guy is cool, he liked Rebol in the past and got famous" and maybe he isn't cool and I'm contributing to the problem. Grrr.
Anyway, people are.
 
> "The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." (Martin Luther King, Jr)
 
If we only tried one kind of person with one kind of idea we're probably not trying enough ideas. Or, we have too many people. One would do.
 
Shooting this past Douglas Crockford is certainly a perfectly fine idea.
It's a pity that the reply was snarky and unhelpful.
 
I think, in his own way, he might have thought snark was help
"Tough love" from an old grump
 
Starry, starry days! Fun reading, good refs, awesome. But you already knew that ...
 
@HostileFork If hash! were a property of block!s, what would a “hashed” block's literal syntax look like?
 
@WiseGenius That's a good question. (Literal syntax raises lots of them.) I will point out that there are more general "lost" properties that one might think about, such as the binding of a word... not everything serializes.
I've never actually looked at Douglas Crockford's website. Weeeird. crockford.com
He worked on the Nintendo version of Maniac Mansion? Hm
From a prior correspondence:
">>> I would like to see Rebol win, but it isn't my cause. I have my own
>>> windmills.
>
> I'm not tilting at something better, but something bigger: Fixing the web."
That's...what the guy who fixed the web's website looks like, who thinks that's an okay reply? :-/
Sigh.
 
@HostileFork - just calm down. Why you put so much trust in authorities? He is entitled to have his own opinion. Well, I wonder, if I will evern follow any mainstream stuff. I mean - I find something being cool (for me), and it is not a business success - being it Amiga, Rebol :-)
 
5:10 PM
@pekr Eh, it's just annoying.
I don't have a problem with opinions.
A lot has to do with how you say them. But maybe he thought he was being funny.
 
5:27 PM
@pekr I made this a conscious decision many moons ago. I swore I would never spend any time on anything big or popular. 100% of the time that means it is crap.
Never regretted it.
Still as true today.
 
@MarkI Hipster puppy agrees.
 
I am forced to append, there's a little ego in the game. They don't need my help!
Ironically, it implies that when Rebol takes off, I'll have to leave it.
Judge for yourself whether that fear keeps me awake nights :)
 
Leonardo's horse (also known as Gran Cavallo) is a sculpture that was commissioned of Leonardo da Vinci in 1482 by Duke of Milan Ludovico il Moro, but not completed. It was intended to be the largest equestrian statue in the world, a monument to the duke's father Francesco. Leonardo did extensive preparatory work for it, but produced only a clay model, which was destroyed by French soldiers when they invaded Milan in 1499, interrupting the project. About five centuries later, Leonardo's surviving design materials were used as the basis for sculptures intended to bring the project to fruition. ...
I tend to think of this work as being on the timescale of the Clock of the Long Now.
So I guess it depends on when you intend to wake up.
 
Q: Why is Rebol like the next big CA earthquake? A: It's not a question of if it's coming.
:)
 
@MarkI Someone has to solve this. I swear, this was a real pathology if you looked at it at all: blog.hostilefork.com/…
And it's no big loss if that works or doesn't, but that isn't the point.
There are many complementary (and much better studied) initiatives. Haskell has its own "Haskell/System" called "C minus minus": cminusminus.org
But the properties are different, it's a different medium. As pointed to in Computer Languages as Artistic Medium. Like trying to say LEGOs are better than clay
 
5:55 PM
@MarkI It's fine if you were there before it was cool.
 
6:55 PM
@HostileFork I don't know which to despise more: mind-numbing complexity being calmly accepted, or complexity leading to business advantages if it is mind-numbing enough ...
 
@MarkI "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
 
@HostileFork C.A.R. Hoare I believe.
 
Yip.
 
Wow, he's still kickin'!
From Wikipedia: "[His] most significant work ... and the axiomatic specification of programming languages."
We need him here in this room with us!
 
@MarkI The more the merrier
 
7:07 PM
Despite the seeming syntax "nightmares" that I keep talking about, at its deepest Rebol is an extremely simple language -- that should appeal to him, at least.
 
@MarkI Okay, got to run. I will reiterate that if you have some time to think through it, EXPR (new operating name, maybe, MATH) needs some prototyping: curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=2120&cursor=2
I'd like to see someone take a crack at it
 
@HostileFork It's a good parse exercise, and I am officially promising to do it, but, unfortunately, no sooner than I can :)
 
No rush, just offering you something to do in my absence :-P
If you're bored...
 
No worries.
And actually, I have never been bored in my life.
I make up for it with frustration and anger though :)
 
8:07 PM
I'd rather @(...) for objects than have no way to have multi-line strings (trying to read a big string in some Javascript source).
 
Another round of let's change syntax because why not! ?
 
@rebolek No-one here is proposing {} as anything other than strings (that I can tell).
 
I've seen this:
Introduce chevrons as the preferred way of writing strings:

«This looks so sophisticated.»

Then deprecate { }. It is an easy transition. A simple Rebol script can accomplish it.

Now { } is free for object building.
Maybe it was just a joke, I hadn't time to read whole discussion.
 
Wasn't that Crockford, who replied that to Hostilefork? :-)
 
@rebolek Was Douglas Crockford...
As was this:
yesterday, by HostileFork
@WiseGenius I will summarize Douglas Crockford's first response (which I found a bit flippant but asked him for a less flippant answer) to be summarizable as: "There's not enough value in the weird string constant form {...} to take it for strings, so take it for your object literal form, instead of doing something wacky like @(...)"
 
8:17 PM
Ah, then sorry :) I was fixing forgotten copy/deep for three hours so hadn't much energy to read whole discussion.
 
@rebolek Still bad all the same that someone out there—the codifier of JSON no less—would think that's the way to go...
 
@rgchris That's true. Idon't even know how to type it on my keyboard :)
 
Me either!
 

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