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12:42 AM
An interesting Kickstarter that allows one to play old CD32 and Amiga games, plus a lot of other consoles. kickstarter.com/projects/681890174/…
 
1:01 AM
@rgchris neat!
 
1:13 AM
@HostileFork It had been bugging me for a while that the likes of Node etc. had relatively short recipes to start a web server. No reason why it shouldn't be so with Rebol with @earl's code demonstrating that it could be a very small addition. No dependencies, no install. One line web server.
2
 
Certainly looking at some of the "best-ofs" other languages there should be at least as good an answer.
It is a "dangerous indicator" that even with all we know, the character classes out of the box have still not happened for PARSE.
If the bitset sizes bother us, some kind of "trained" systems for the Unicode 6.0 classes that does it specifically need to be engineered
8
Q: Unicode character classification

Mechanical snailReal-world programs often use libraries like ICU to support Unicode. The puzzle is to create the smallest possible function that can determine whether a given Unicode character is lowercase, uppercase, or neither (a commonly used Unicode character property). You may indicate the property in any...

 
1:39 AM
>> find/match "abc" #"a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "bc"
 
>> find/match "abc" #"b"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
>> find/match/tail "abc" #"a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "bc"
 
1:40 AM
>> find/match/tail "abc" #"c"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
I don't get it.
FIND's refinements don't make a lot of sense. /MATCH would seem to suggest that it only checks at one position, and might be communicated a bit better by something like "SKIP 0" to suggest no skipping at all.
SKIP 0 meaning "do the check just once and stop, whatever iterate-like thing you're doing don't treat it iteratively" would plug a semantic hole and kind of communicate better, by ensuring that case had some handling.
When I say "/MATCH would seem to suggest" I mean what happens when you run it with a single character suggests that, not that the word is remotely communicative of that.
Perhaps /skip NONE would be clearer, and not get mixed up with the integer math. Think outside the type-constrained box... I think I like that better than 0, and better than /match
 
 
2 hours later…
4:02 AM
@earl One addition to have one of the builds do in the Travis, beyond running the tests and beyond valgrind, would be one that did a bootstrap build to make sure the resulting r3 could turn around and be used as an r3-make...
@AnthonyMichaelCook Hello, long time. Much has happened. If you missed it, definitionally-scoped returns, as one very large thing.
But lots of other things too.
 
@HostileFork Yo, thanks. I've been following along on Github, but lurking :)
I was going to ask about the mapreduce equivalent functions in Rebol, there doesn't seem to be a place for documentation really, and rebol.com/r3/docs hasn't been particularly enlightening.
 
If you are looking for parallelism there's not much of a story to be told at this point.
 
No, I just mean mapreduce in its most basic sense as filter and run a (or group of) functions on a sequence.
 
>> map-each x [1 2 3] [x * 2]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [2 4 6]
 
4:09 AM
I've actually spent the last few months building a concurrent programming language. Still pre-alpha, but it runs.
 
There's that one. Ren-C has "every" which is a rough synonym for ALL MAP-EACH.
Bringing in some concurrent sensibilities to Rebol would be nice. There is not much of a plan that I can see for it yet, and it's very deeply entrenched in mutability and imperative programming.
 
Hmm, I looked for "map", in the docs, I guess they're incomplete. Because it only came up with the type. Is there a way to do like a partial-match search in the r3 console "help"?
 
>> help "map"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Found these related words:
   append          action!   Inserts element(s) at tail; for series, retur...
   clear           action!   Removes elements from current position to tai...
   closure         function! Defines a closure function with all set-words...
   copy            action!   Copies a series, object, or other value.
   empty?          action!   Returns TRUE if empty or NONE, or for series ...
   extend          function! Extend an object, map, or block type with wor...
 
Hm, not what I get in Ren-C.
>> help "map"
Found these related words:
   map             function! Make a map value (hashed associative block).
   map!            datatype! block
   map-each        native!   Evaluates a block for each value(s) in a seri...
   map-event       native!   Returns event with inner-most graphical objec...
   map-gob-offset  native!   Translates a gob and offset to the deepest go...
   map?            action!   Returns TRUE if value is of type MAP!
   to-map          function! Converts to map! value.
I don't offhand recall changing it but I might have.
 
4:12 AM
It works fine here with r3
(2014 build)
My language is pretty close to an assembler for its VM, it's using a vaguely forth-like "syntax". I get around most of the imperative style at that level by giving each thread their own dedicated stack, and they communicate via queues.
 
Well given that you are Rebol-aware if you'd like to bring any of it to bear on the Rebolverse please do.
Perhaps you might consider it being syntax compatible, as a kind of dialect.
So not worry about your own LOAD, and perhaps even defer to Rebol for some services.
 
It's not semantically compatible, but the syntax (what little there is) has been inspired by Rebol. :)
 
To go from "inspired by" to "uses same code as" would be a nice leap as that helps us all be on the same page and improving the same code.
 
Is $drop intrinsically more desirable than #drop ?
(for example)
 
4:21 AM
What is #drop?
 
>> type? #drop
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== issue!
 
In Rebol, it's an evaluator inert type known as ISSUE!
 
blacklight is based on a multi-stack machine, $ represents the "meta" stack of stacks, so operations beginning with $ are related to it.
 
It was an ANY-STRING! in Rebol2, an ANY-WORD! (so symbolic, immutable) in Rebol3, and Ren-C has a bit of tricks in the wings to unify the categories so you don't worry much about whether something is a string or word unless you're planning on giving it to the evaluator, in which case its the specific type you're concerned about vs. its "typeclass".
Um, and $ is intrinsically meaningful for this as opposed to # because...?
 
4:24 AM
The symbol itself is arbitrary :)
I think I went with $ because I associate it with "global" from it's usage in other languages.
 
Well, the point being that if you were willing to fall in line a little in terms of making your arbitrary choices line up with Rebol's, and perhaps feed back into improvements of the generality of Rebol's choices to make them more suitable, then it would mean your code could be LOADed by Rebol (and processed) and you could share the scanner code without writing and maintaining your own.
It's C, so you wouldn't need to take all of Rebol. The scanner could be pulled out into its own lib.
(Though making Rebol a lighter, smaller lib overall is a continued hopeful goal, to the point where "all of Rebol core" is very little.)
Not that you'd know it from Ren-C currently having HTTPS, GUI core bits, FFI, etc. in the build without #ifdefs. (Well FFI has an #ifdef, but it only #ifdefs out the linkage...all the supporting code is built in.) But that's all going to change, with tick boxes for whether you need GIF or BMP encoding/decoding or not. (Don't need it? Don't build it any of in.)
 
It's possible. Right now it's built on top of Go because it means I didn't have to implement coroutines, queues, or GC myself. Go can sorta talk to C, but poorly and slowly. I intend to move to LLVM once the bytecode specification settles down, and then working with C will be a breeze.
Of course then I'll spend the rest of my life tweaking GC implementations...
 
Could be worse.
I never really thought I'd be sitting around programming in ANSI C89, then trying to get that to cross build up through C++98 to C++17 and C99 to C11...
And I really would like to nail what I want nailed down well enough so I am not doing that, and it's not too far away, I think.
 
I might generate LLVM IR or ASM directly, I'm not sure I want to actually write C and use their calling conventions or stack or anything, except when using library code.
blacklight is actually intended to be a backend for another language, but I need a solid VM that I can embed and run standalone, with baked-in concurrency primitives. Plus I wanted to avoid spending a lot of (my) cycles on making a fancy syntax.
 
Well if you think it would be fun to have synergy and interest with the Rebol and perhaps Red universes, then it might be worth your while to hone the syntax a little so that what you've got can be LOADed by them.
You'd get the benefit of being able to load, reflect, and work with your code in Rebol and Red--even if they couldn't run it.
Then you might be able to share some code in the loading process, or alternately make a light subset reader of the "Ren" syntax in a different language, which is useful too.
The question would be if you think $foo and 'some string' are worth the divergence vs. making some compromises to #foo and {some string} or "some string"...or even feeding back into the process of what's legal to make it more to your liking.
For instance, if you need $ and $foo, # standalone is not today legal as an "empty issue". But I might suggest it being okay if it were. (I also would like <> to mean "empty tag")
The idea of building something Red-like that could embed an interpreter and "slip in and out" of the interpreter (using your language for things that you want to precompile and need async and then throwing things over the wall to the interpreter when you need what it does) could be cool too.
Note how PARSE is a dialect with functioning in its own right, but it uses parens to slip out and do work in the default interpreter.
 
4:41 AM
Well, I need some way of referencing the Meta, likewise @ means "current" ie the top stack on the Meta which you do most of your work in.
 
I'm turning refinements into paths to be used for member access in objects.
So /foo/bar being like this->foo.bar(...)
 
Theoretically it could just be meta and current but then it's weird to have long ASM mnemonics like meta-pop vs $pop.
 
Well, I'm still perhaps eyeing / for a "root path" of some kind and rethinking divide, but even without that, #pop would be available.
Anyway, consider it, I've said my piece and you either care or you don't.
 
I have a doc talking about a "pathing" operator, it's taken me years to get to the point where I understand what I want it to do semantically, even though I've been using it in pseudocode for almost a decade.
 
self/thing and /thing are a similar contrast, with pathiness.
 
4:49 AM
Here's the latest summary of my findings: evernote.com/l/AAWQbMmQe65NP7hH4hueM9w6qCFZj6iouic
 
posted on December 18, 2015 by hostilefork

The Find_Str_Char() routine was taking up about 10% of the build time for hostilefork.com using the Draem static website builder, and it seemed a bit excessive considering what the routine did. By making the routine a little more sophisticated and leaning on C library routines for the common case of finding 1 or 2 characters in a byte string (that aren't NUL)--when searching forward and s

 
I was wondering today if dots should suggest a different type of path.
 
Notably, Hyperluminal (the language I intend to build on top of blacklight's VM), is a prototypical message-passing language. So it's a little bit different of a use case.
 
length-of a.b.c => 3 for instance.
There are two delimited array types, [a b c] and (a b c), so why not two interstitial array types, a.b.c and a/b/c
"Why not" might be argued that dots have meanings in--say--floating point numbers, 1.2
 
I use . for normal message-passing, using : for what Rebol uses dots for.
 
4:53 AM
Hum? 0:5 = 5 / 10
 
So 1:2:3 is a tuple.
 
I don't really think all that often of tuples when I think of dots. In fact, I don't think of tuples much at all, because of how bad they are.
Finite number of passed by value bytes that can range from 0 to 255... hum, I can see why that got built in. Not.
"We'll use it for versions" ... what if a sub-version gets to 256? Use Node.js and yes, it does, often the last wheel on the version odometer is bumped every time you git push.
"We'll use it for colors" ... everyone uses hex for colors.
"We'll use it for IP addresses" ... IPv6 is completely incompatible.
Can't use it for pairs, because 1.2 is a floating point number.
Basically TUPLE! is a rather good example of rather bad thinking.
^-- I am curious how relevant that Find_Str_Char optimization is in general parse code. I don't know anything I do in my static website builder is all that "unusual" as a parse usage to have invoked single-character seeking unusually often, so it seems to me that parse is using it as a way of getting to "where it should start looking"
Because I never bother to for instance say parse ... [some #"A"], I always leave things as strings, so parse ... [some "A"], and assume it will be just as fast...which actually turns out to not be true. But it's not true for a not good reason that can be fixed.
 
Lol, okay it's not restricted to uint8 in Hyperluminal, or any of that.
More like Erlang tuples
bbl
 
5:09 AM
Later...
 
5:43 AM
Had to relocate
 
@AnthonyMichaelCook Given your focus on language creation, are you using any Rebol or thinking you will be using it in the future?
 
One of my first test parsers was written in Rebol
I'd like to use it as an intermediary to help generated LLVM ASM/IR, but I had some issues with parse last time and it's documentation.
 
Well at least when people have asked parse Q&A here in the past they were answered pretty quickly
Though not much Q&A for Rebol or Red in recent months
Not terribly encouraging, but, ... well, things do proceed along.
 
6:00 AM
I also keep meaning to mess with Rebol's UDP and sockets and I just keep getting distracted by other things.
How's Red's development coming along anyway?
 
@MarkI Good catch with word sorting.
 
@AnthonyMichaelCook You can follow along with them at Gitter.im red. Upcoming GUI release shortly for Windows, later for Android.
 
@HostileFork how are you benchmarking Find_Str_Char?
 
Radically different focus and direction from Ren-C. Little interest in solving fundamental language problems, inconsistencies or "WAT!"-moments. High interest in building something Rebol2-like that lets people solve things on modern platforms incl. Android along similar lines with expanded bridging.
@AnthonyMichaelCook Kcachegrind run against my own build process of my website using a Rebol-based (largely parse) static generator.
Looks about like that
 
Well I saw that much. I guess I was wondering if it's exercised using other methods as well.
 
6:06 AM
Don't know, just didn't think it had any business taking that long
And it said it supported negative skips but didn't because it was using unsigned indices.
Anyway, waste of my time, but did it anyway
 
Hmm, does ren-c return useful version info from the REBOL or system words?
 
I don't know what would be useful under your definition. If you mean can you identify it differently from Rebol3, no conscious attempt has been made to differentiate it from what Atronix had set up (it started from gutting their code of the GUI, Anti-Grain-Geometry, all that)
 
Hmm. Well I just realized I wasn't sure of the source of my binary. It'd be nice if it embedded the git sha or something.
 
In the current system of Rebol forks, it is intended to be uptaken by Atronix. R3-Alpha is not being projected as having another angle of development.
 
posted on December 18, 2015 by Ladislav

[Bug] LESSER-OR-EQUAL? is not transitive, and therefore it is not an order on words. See the test below.

posted on December 18, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] This is related to #2218.

posted on December 18, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] #2251 is related

 
6:18 AM
@Ladislav In the tightening of booleans, I noticed there were several of the compare routines that were returning TRUE or FALSE when their results were REBINT. The stricter observation meant these have been changed to condition ? 0 : 1 results, but yes, that kind of thing is what will happen.
@AnthonyMichaelCook I'm sure something useful could be done, PRs welcome.
 
The rebol console is so broken, it might even be worse than blacklight's :D
(not really, blacklight's doesn't even support the arrow keys - it relies on bash for that)
 
Ren-C had an addition of Rebol2-like line continuation for what that is worth
 
It's interesting that the platform string is different Macintosh vs Macintosh osx-x64.
 
Ren Garden is my bet in that area and I don't feel particularly motivated to work on NCurses-style stuff or whatever.
 
GUIs don't really work over SSH though.
 
6:26 AM
I will leave the solution of that problem to those with the interest and motivation.
It would seem to me there must be some sort of generalized shell mechanism for piping stdin to a process and doing it nicely giving you line editing in vt100 or whatever so each program doesn't have to go reinvent it
 
Well then things should be simplified and wired up to use that.
Again, PR's welcome. :-)
 
Personally I've always written my own terminal code over using Curses. I know it's terrible of me and all, but I only write for xterm/iterm and I don't support the 50 billion terminals that existed before about 2003. :D
But linenoise is a good small library for doing just one simple task.
 
@AnthonyMichaelCook Looks good, a lot of people who do Rebol are windows users however, for whatever reason
Don't know if modern windows terminals do ANSI.SYS compatibility
@AnthonyMichaelCook Here's the REPL support in Ren-C (contributed) github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/…
 
6:48 AM
Windows Consoles use syscalls instead of ANSI, which would make sense if they actually did anything with it.
 
Discuter en live de Red en français, c'est maintenant possible ici: https://gitter.im/red/red/France (compte Github requis)
Preparing to post on Red's blog replies to all questions sent to the Red ML in the last months.
 
This fork of Linenoise claims to support Windows: github.com/arangodb/linenoise-ng but for generic ANSI support on Windows I use github.com/adoxa/ansicon
 
7:03 AM
@AnthonyMichaelCook C++11 dependency for the windows version... hm. Sigh. Well it's not really on my personal agenda to improve it but I'll keep these links around, starred.
It's definitely the kind of thing where someone who is not-me could do it.
 
I've talked about doing it, at least the POSIX terminal version, maybe I will yet.
Is there a card on Trello for it?
 
Trello is currently not actively being used for features, and the CureCode database import was held up for a while, but it is coming: github.com/johnk-/impexptest/issues
How exactly that's all going to shake out remains to be seen. Atronix has been keeping up with Ren-C, Saphirion has stopped by lately with interest, so the question is if machinery is going to click together to start doing things proper-like or not.
The Ren-C Trello is just to track migration things, new features, little bits of information on what's changed and what's new.
A working-set task list could be nice as well, but for me that is the task list.
 
Ah. I use a couple of Trello boards for blacklight, plus Evernote for docs right now.
Incidentally, it might be faster to just port linenoise to Rebol mezz code.
 
That is another idea.
 
Okay, sleep time now.
 
7:12 AM
Nite, thanks!
 
@MarkI Since you liked the Rebol-layer editing, what about that? How about line editing be moved to Rebol-layer and get it out of the C? See starred links regarding "linenoise" --^
That would be a worthy undertaking.
It's certainly not performance critical, memory critical, etc. and we've seen one line can get pretty far.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:20 AM
这是Red的中文讨论组 https://gitter.im/red/red/Chinese
 
 
2 hours later…
9:54 AM
@HostileFork @earl I will be getting on to the cc import again soon, but I'm currently on holiday camping with no laptop. Looking forward to getting it done and thanks again @earl for setting up the repo
 
 
2 hours later…
11:26 AM
I'm upgrading my phone to Android 5.1.1. Then I'll try compile r3 with signals.
On Android 5 sl4a doesn't support python no more :-( ... so definitevely swithching to Rebol for my own purposes :-)
@HostileFork Also, I'm debugging mold-stack branch. Found some issues (my faults, not your)
 
posted on December 18, 2015 by Ladislav

[Comment] In the core-tests suite.

 
12:20 PM
posted on December 18, 2015 by Mike Parr

Hi All! - I've just come across Red, and am very interested. I would like to create a Getting Started' guide, which might contain: - downloading, installing. - configuring an editor (I could not find any info on this). - intro to language (aimed at those who are relatively new to

 
12:53 PM
@giuliolunati Plenty of mistakes to go around I'm sure :-) But always be thinking in fixing something if there is a way to make "that kind of mistake" impossible to make, at least in the debug build...
 
 
3 hours later…
3:42 PM
For reasons not likely to be good in this day and age, Rebol rounds a lot of memory allocations to powers of 2.
31
Q: Is it better to allocate memory in the power of two?

Andrew-DufresneWhen we use malloc() to allocate memory, should we give the size which is in power of two? Or we just give the exact size that we need? Like //char *ptr= malloc( 200 ); char *ptr= malloc( 256 );//instead of 200 we use 256 If it is better to give size which is in the power of two, what is the ...

It would be nice if there were some kind of hint on whether people planned to modify something or not, but it's something you have to say about a series before it's created. :-/ There could conceivably be a way of hinting the system about your desires for a result of an operation before the result was produced.
(Besides adding an explicit refinement to do that, I mean)
 
 
4 hours later…
8:00 PM
@Ladislav Thanks! Lots more to come :)
@HostileFork Will investigate. Sounds like a good idea to me ...
 
Tried to build the linenoise-ng lib on Windows, but having some kind of dll error with their example
of course I'm trying to use Mingw32 instead of Visual Studio, so not able to follow their build instructions
 
8:19 PM
I'm un-crippling the console right now, because I need to add something. Hence it is becoming a Ren-C client instead of an RL_Api client.
And if it delegated much of its implementation to a block of Rebol code and saved the C for the trapping and trickery that's ideal.
The thing I'm doing right now one would file under "trickery"
 
8:31 PM
They have no issues tab, so I'm going to give up
 
@kealist I would def. suggest if any windows user doesn't have one already, spin up a virtualbox of an ubuntu or something with gcc. Good environment to experiment with, and some things that are a pain on windows can be looked at more easily.
Really a start with the main linenoise that doesn't have the windows concerns would be a fine start.
But I think the winning idea here is to port it to a little bit of Rebol, emit the codes...we need to make sure that write stdout can make whatever binary bits need to go out vs. only utf8. And right now, PRINT is willing to do that (though it won't be longer term)
But should be good enough to test with
 
 
2 hours later…
10:27 PM
Promising new feature is promising.
 
11:07 PM
@HostileFork Running @earl's shttpd.r got Panic_Series() in m-series.c:444, caused by line 68 ... could you help me plz?
 
@giuliolunati How should I invoke it?
 
11:22 PM
@HostileFork I'm getting crashing on boot at the moment.
C:\Users\kealist\Documents\GitHub\blah\ren-c\make>r3
Assertion failed: IS_END(&chunk->values[num_values]), file ../src/core/m-stacks.c, line 270
let me clean and rebuild one more time to make sure I didn't goof something up
 
@kealist Hm. Weird, travis builds and does a sort of "null test" on windows and such: travis-ci.org/metaeducation/ren-c
 
Also don't think I saw this before:
../src/core/../codecs/rsa/rsa.c: In function 'RSA_decrypt':
../src/core/../codecs/rsa/rsa.c:207:33: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'alloca' [enabled by default]
     uint8_t *block = (uint8_t *)alloca(byte_size);
Same crash again
 
Let me build on Windows and see what happens, as things are working ok for me
 
@HostileFork r3 shttpd.r, then navigate to 127.0.0.1:8080
 
Well, I guess I did just try to update my mingw installation, so that changed.
 
11:26 PM
Boots and runs on Windows with current master debug build
@giuliolunati I run it and get "** Access error: cannot connect: tcp://:8080 reason: 0"
I hardcoded localhost in it, and it runs but exits and says nothing.
 
@HostileFork windows or linux?
 
@giuliolunati Linux
 
@HostileFork hmm...
 
On Windows it runs and sits there but says "connection refused" when I try the URL
 
And it don't crash?
 
11:35 PM
Neither do, no. But they also don't work or try to respond to the request
 
Ok, don't worry.
 
@giuliolunati Where is the specific Panic_Series you are getting coming from (what's above it in the stack?)
 
m-pools.c:1350
 
@giuliolunati As it's string related it may relate to the mold stack. So see if the problem exists without mold stack, if not that's where the problem is... something to do with the termination it would seem. Probably the series that's being passed in didn't have a terminator on it.
Gotta run but be back later...we should get the shttpd.r in running shape and throw it into the test suite too if we can...
 
11:44 PM
So I'll definitely figure out why shttpd.r isn't doing anything, it works using rebolsource build so guess I'll just go through and find out why it doesn't want to work in Ren-C... will make that the next priority
 
Good!
 

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