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12:43 AM
@rgchris (and everyone) I do want to draw our attention to anther great As Yet Unsolved problem... what to do about builtin character sets to take the grievous "something RegEx does better than PARSE" problem away
Things we know: Unicode already named a bunch of character classes and categories. Among other things about this, it has made us reluctant to name the category for word-like things "SYMBOL?" feeling that word is probably more owned by the character class.
We also know another technical bit, which is that these categories are hard to represent efficiently as bitsets, because when you count the number of unicode characters there are and the number of bits, even things that can be described succinctly by a range spec will not be so succinct when you do the math and make it into actual efficient-to-test-bits vs the size of the spec itself.
But one of the main technicals we have is the insistence that functions not be called in PARSE lest they gobble up arguments and make the already-sometimes-hard-to-grok code even harder because you're putting DO evaluations in the midst of parse code.
With Carl having conceded that single-arity functions that return blocks of rules or something are not any worse than variables, but he thought if it takes any arguments then that's out unless you use some kind of keyword e.g. DO (foo arg1 arg2)
I experimented with a concept of zero-arity refined charset generating functions. parse "1234 ABCD" [4 digit space some digit/hex]. The goal was to make the character classes able to stand alone as well as be refined. This permitted caching (functions like digit were active and could bring the character set to life) and if digit were an object then it could not do that because you'd be picking out character sets as digit/any or something in the base case.
A problem was that these functions came out rather unnatural in their implementation, and also that the refinements had a complexity matrix that just grew and became contradictory.
It was also somewhat stifling to only be able to write these specs as a chain of refinement words because sometimes arguments just made more sense.
I note now another problem, there's a unicode character set for MARK and I wanted that for a parse keyword to complement SEEK
 
1:16 AM
@Brett Getting approvals aside, is everything about ready for the source conversion?
 
1:26 AM
@HostileFork Close-ish to being ready. I'm incorporating my code into the ren-c/tools directory and dealing with the integration issues thrown up like from the r2r3-future.r bridge. As my scanner works on the new format and the old scanners work on the old format, the new scanner will need to come in at the same time as the conversion and I have yet to base make-headers.r and make-os-ext.r upon it. So it is somewhat a big bang conversion.
That may have implications for any uncommitted code I don't get to convert.
 
@Brett If you get it sorted out on your end everyone else will cope... though that's sort of more why I feel @earl and @ShixinZeng stepping in to say "okay go" is important...less that I think they're going to have big complaints about the format, more about timing.
e.g. if they can think of any good reason to do something they're going to do before you push the button
 
There's also the option of them using my converter to convert their local and commit later.
 
I am happy to leave running the whole thing up to you. :-)
What will be especially nice is if it throws the whitespace checking into make prep so that travis builds will fail if it's not right, that will warn people about bad PRs
So errors instead of warnings should be the default.
Except on the line length or other stuff we're not quite ready to commit to
 
@HostileFork I think I'd like to get the minimum running first, then further commits to turn on that stuff.
 
I accidentally had my editor settings swapped up last few commits on Ren/C++ and had wound up with a bunch of tabs in there. Very annoying. Looking forward to the day when I can turn every tab in every editor OFF.
As you wish, just got through uncommitting some tab damage though, reminds me. :-)
 
1:36 AM
One issue I had with r2r3-future.r was unsetting length?, type? etc for Rebol 2 - this breaks Rebol 2 (which I use for dev/parse debugging). So I've made those unsets conditional upon being Rebol 3. Still get the benefit of checking when running on Rebol 3...
 
@Brett That is a placeholder I just stuffed in there to try and make a semi-reusable file for tracking that. Any improvements would be welcome, but I don't know long term how important that particular compatibility track will be.
 
@HostileFork Well it motivated me to realise my scripts should be using Ren-c names like index-of etc... So I'm doing that.
 
Its name is bad too. It might just be called r2-future to distinguish it from r2-forward well enough.
Cool
Well then that raises the priority of maybe patching it up and making it more obviously available to people with similar desires
 
I have a bunch of support scripts. I'm thinking these go into a lib subfolder of tools. Lib is essentially a cache of these scripts which live in separate repos with their tests. I need them to get this running but I don't mind if people work out how to improve or replace them if they feel it's getting too heavyweight.
 
We don't have to worry all that much about how heavy the tools are for build time, within reason
 
1:48 AM
Cool.
 
@johnk @GrahamChiu @Brett Note that I turned DO of errors back on. Still "discouraged", FAIL is better. But making people mess with it wasn't worth it considering it was just going to give you an error anyway.
But if you have any THROWs those still need to be changed.
 
Fail states things so clearly I'm sure everyone will gravitate to it naturally.
 
Evaluation on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren/C" branch)
e: make error! [...] fail e fail "Simple error" substitution: "rejoin-like-behavior" fail ["Simple error with" substitution] trap/with [ x: 10 if x < 20 [...
I think it is worth asking if EVAL should exist. I think extending APPLY is the wiser thing and then just don't have EVAL.
I've been feeling increasingly positive about the idea of ANY-STRING! subsumbing ANY-WORD! ... I think I have to better understand what use the ANY-WORD! category was before. Why would you have tested or cared about any word instead of just individual types.
The big issue is, if a string has to be in "word mode" before it will participate in binding, that there's a question of timing of when you put it into that mode. Which is a bit like the moment you decide to protect something, or otherwise affect its invisible state.
So basically LOAD would have logic in it saying not to put {brace strings} or #issues or <tags> into word mode by default, but that would be a decision LOAD makes
Not that those kinds of strings wouldn't be capable of being put into word mode, it just wouldn't
The technical trick being that REBSERs would get loaded for all ANY-STRING! types (including the words) and then you can just bump those series into symbol table entries or not.
Mechanically this has an issue in that words (due to being immutable) are never decoded from UTF-8 into two-bytes-per-character unicode, whereas strings are. But I wonder if lazy UTF-8 decoding could benefit the whole system. It seems almost like most strings are never modified either.
So decode-on-demand, and be able to do it for an unbound word just like you can for a string. If you bind a string then leave it however (the GC could compact it to UTF-8 down the road if it had free time)
It's hard to say how you would tell the difference. ANY-WORD! could still be a typeset and ANY-STRING! would just return more types. You'd get an API for navigating inside of words with next and previous, but once you said x: next 'foo you're essentially inside a protected string...you can't modify it
The mechanical issue being that a cell doesn't have enough room for a binding and a position. But do you really want it looking up and resolving oo anyway, if it's only part of the foo it referred to?
Anyway, in order to keep it in line with performance and not mess things up, binding has to be a one-way street. Once you bind something it becomes immutable, and you have to copy out to a new string to make a new binding or to edit.
 
2:37 AM
@HostileFork I am guessing this will make it easier to get rebolbot running in native ren-c as opposed to r3-legacy mode. I'll try to find time to play tonight
 
Decided with Ren/C++ that the "generalized apply" notion works best if apply of an error raises the error.
And seemed to go with "making DO not do errors has been a distraction"
 
3:01 AM
When I said "close-ish" I'm assuming the compilation step doesn't throw up more issues!
 
@Brett Hopefully not. If you make the same (or compatible files) in the same places.
 
3:45 AM
Hm. So if you ask bind-of on a RETURN that should get you the function that return belongs to. I don't think anything else should be noticeably different from a return and another function.
A RETURN just in its body has a named throw that throws to the name of that function to which it is local. (Whether that RETURN be implemented as a native optimization, or in the sourced version).
Well, the return needs to named throw to its own name, not to the function it is returning from, because you might use the function itself as a name for other throws you don't want the function scaffold to catch as if it were a return value.
This is a much better angle on the original implementation of definitional return. So I'm going to officially scrap the first one.
(I should note that it was not possible at that time to write it the current way before the decouple of throw/catch from ERROR!)
 
 
2 hours later…
5:47 AM
posted on October 13, 2015 by qtxie

FIX: resize hashtable not correctly by qtxie

 
6:21 AM
@IvanSukin Any luck with Ren/C building?
 
7:10 AM
@HostileFork yes, I successfully build it, but the interpreter crushes on FFI tests.
 
@IvanSukin What test are you trying?
Hm I'm getting a crash on the gtk test, let me see what's up
 
./r3 varargs.r
r3: ../src/core/c-do.c:961: Do_Core: Assertion `(((((param)->flags.bitfields.exts)) & (1u << (EXT_TYPESET_EVALUATE))) != 0)' failed.
Aborted (core dumped)
@HostileFork It is 64-bit Linux version
 
Yup, aggressive assert, I'm known for adding those. :-)
Let's see if that's all it is.
 
@HostileFork all other tests from `atronix' dir fail with similar messages.
 
Try commenting out the assertion and rebuild if you want to just see if it works without it. c-do.c line 961
(it runs when I comment that out)
 
7:17 AM
I've tried both libffi from my Linux distribution and the one from `external' directory.
Yes, everything works now :) After I have commented this assertion out.
 
@IvanSukin Well perhaps not everything, but at least that alarm bell isn't going off. :-) The alarm doesn't really mean anything right now, but it will mean something soon... so thank you for bringing it up.
 
@HostileFork And there is another failing assertion at m-series.c:444. It fails within another assertion in garbage collector (m-gc.c: 1146) when I run test-libs.r
 
@IvanSukin That's more meaningful. How did you make it happen?
Oh you said, "when I run test-libs.r"... hm, let me find that
@IvanSukin I see the problem...but not my code so I will have to absorb it a sec
@IvanSukin FFI is one way of interfacing Rebol with C codebases, but another interesting one is to go by way of C++, which has some interesting angles with Ren/C++. That's a path I've been looking into.
@IvanSukin I don't know that I've ever run test-libs.r before, does Atronix's build work on it? I'm not sure what struct! [int32 bi] bs is supposed to mean. It seems to not like the bi.
 
7:39 AM
@HostileFork Yes, the latest Atronix dev build works.
 
'k thanks, let me look at the differences
 
@HostileFork struct! [int32 bi] bs is just the struct-typed field with one inner integer-typed field
 
bi is a field name?
 
Yes
 
8:04 AM
@IvanSukin Still looking at a problem-after-the-problem, it's strange because I don't see any code that would make sense of that bi. It looks that it reads the type and then demands the block be at the end. It's getting the type correctly, then noting the thing following it isn't an array, and then saying you can't have anything after that.
So I guess the question would be whether the field name would have been extracted somehow in the Atronix build at this point or what
It looks like it expects the field names to be set words before the types
Looking at other examples the names come before (more consistent with Rebol arg [type!]).
In other words, my immediate intuition in looking at something I don't work with is not lining up. :-)
 
8:26 AM
One of the problems is something Shixin asked me about before, and rather than fix the workaround I think I'm just going to fix the problem.
All of these things are just matters of timing, you know there's a right answer but when do you get to it, and sometimes the motivator is "seeing the thing that was done because the right answer was unavailable". :-)
@iArnold My own opinion on the Rebol situation as per Gitter is that, when you think about the question of what it is or who is working on what there are certain facts. Fact: Rebol3 was left incomplete, so saying what Rebol3 is or isn't makes little sense...the only thing that there is which is defined clearly in scope/document/completion is Rebol2.
 
@HostileFork Right. So Ren/C "fork" of R3 is free to take R3 into a better direction. Preferably with consensus amongst the devs hanging out here.
2
 
And there isn't really anyone documenting, soliciting and looking as much as I do for finding the best solutions. So I take issue with DocKimbel's concept that when he picks and chooses what of Rebol3 to use, and designs in a vacuum with a 100% veto power on said community that he is a "great leader" while I somehow am poisoning the vision of Rebol.
Annnnyway. What can be said that hasn't been said already.
And it's like with the lack of definitional return...if that doesn't get solved, I think the point is lost. We don't use a language in which everything is a function--even IF and WHILE--because we always wanted to program in a language with really slow control constructs...
There's a reason which is purported as a selling point, this dynamic and creative control over making DSLs. And if you sit around churning out a bunch of weird Win32 GUI code layered on top of a system where you can't make your own while-like loop that properly handles returns as well as the natives do... I say you've missed the point. And yes...it may not be just a detail you "just get right later", because some of these are cross-cutting concerns.
I map things out like terminology in part because if you can't explain something, you probably don't understand it. This is the lesson in general inherent in teaching.
And whether the terminology changes ultimately make that much difference in the long tail of "things people can learn to ignore", they have been at the very least very good springboards for seeing what's actually there in current formulations.
 
9:09 AM
@rebolek If something like the UNTIL change, solvable via search and replace to LOOP-UNTIL is really a big problem for you, when you get LOOP-WHILE... and also if you don't feel like updating with UNTIL: :LOOP-UNTIL I have very bad news... because there will be disruption in changing to anything. Not only is that nothing in the scheme of things, it's a clear improvement because loop-until [condition] makes actual sense and pretty much everyone thinks so.
Carl had plenty of changes more insidious than that... like the sign of SHIFT changed in terms of which direction it went
That's one I don't myself understand, in that I'd think if anything you'd make shift-right and shift-left and not have a plain "shift" for bit shifting. Because people would have to read the code and guess if they weren't familiar with the documentation.
 
I don't agree that your best solutions are everyone's best solutions, but you're free to do whatever you want with Ren/C. Also you can stop with the constant Red bashing but I'm probably wishing too much.
 
@HostileFork Thanks. I'll sleep better now.
 
@rebolek As I mentioned above, it's all a matter of perspective, what you consider to be your "opinion" where I "bash". Mine makes sense and I back it up with reason and logic. You're just a reactionary.
 
@rebolek Ren-c is the only fork of R3 being actively developed.
 
@GrahamChiu I know. It's kind of sad.
 
9:21 AM
Anyone is welcome to work with the mainline
but I don't think criticizing a fork without any input prior to that is at all helpful
Carl is MIA, and I don't know where Andreas is these days
 
@GrahamChiu There has been exhaustive demand to have pull requests accepted to the mainline, yet no single action was taken. Afaiac the mainline is dead, long live the mainline.
 
So, @HostileFork is the only person left standing
 
@GrahamChiu Not sure what you mean by that. I like some of HF's ideas, I don't like some of them.That's all.
 
@rebolek Yes, but that's irrelevant
his fork is ren-c, it's not rebol mainline
That there is no rebol mainline is a different issue
 
It's just bit sad that the only active fork of R3 is a fork that is trying to change bit too much for my taste.
From my POV.
I understand different people may like it.
 
9:26 AM
I think you either develop your own fork, or just live with it
But being sad ... is a bit sad to say the least
 
Yeah. I have to live with it, as I'm lost in C.
 
Actually Atronix is also active
 
@rebolek And you developing your own fork is not all that impenetrable as... there are #ifdefs in the code for every behavior change thus far that would be of any possible controversy. github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/…
 
you can use theirs.
But they're also taking code out of ren-c
 
And when I go through the C I make it about as coherent as it can be
 
9:28 AM
I said it many times before that I really appreciate @HostileFork's bugfixing of R3 codebase.
I'm really not against him, I don't understand why anyone can think of that.
 
Well, there's a lot of work going on, and it really is work that is as accommodating as I can reasonably imagine of those with different ideas.
 
If you don't like something, you need to argue your case. But just stating a taste preference is not enough.
 
And I guess perhaps it's just a matter of expectation. Perhaps you think it's sad that no one else is making another branch. "There should be more people working on Rebol, wish more C programmers were drawn to the cause, I'd like to see a lot of progress and differences!"
I think that divergence is not all that great in that it would be nice if people started from shared code because then there's at least a greater hope of integrating changes. Whereas 10 more different projects with all new codebases and codenames is precisely what we're trying to get away from
 
Yeah, well, I'm not native speaker. Where @HostileFork can argument with a wall of text, I will write a line. So my arguments may seem just like taste preference.
 
Write it in Cz!
 
9:34 AM
But then only @Pekr or @Oldes will understand :)
or @Cyphre, but he's hidden in his cave...
 
well, at least you'll have your say
 
Maybe Google Translate has an empathy filter :-)
 
Google Translate is funny.
It's like Chinese whispers.
 
@rebolek Well, I only linked to Bing's translate using R3
 
How Google Translate Works => correlation of comparative texts vs. old school machine translation
Yet it feeds into meaning as I've said. So if you enter something into Google Translate and it tells you what it thinks it means in a language you don't know, it now knows there's at least one data point of someone who may think that's what that means in that language.
So hopefully we won't run out of any people in the world who actually speak more than one language to check it.
 
9:39 AM
just an example, it translates "Chinese whispers" as "čínské šeptá", that's "Chinese is whispering". The corrent translation is "tichá pošta", which is "silent post". So I'm really not afraid that AI will take over the world anytime soon ;)
 
@rebolek if they do, we won't understand what they want
 
@GrahamChiu Yes :-)
 
Anyway, changes are occurring because there is no dissent
Make some noises if you don't like something.
Or, forever hold your piece as the marriage celebrant says
 
So my dissent is just noise.
 
you weren't very specific as far as I can see on this page
 
9:46 AM
Actually what is so specific about things like "I hate REJOIN and it must die" ?
 
It's still there
Some of the issues are about language, and then you may have to be a native speaker
Combine was suggested as an alternative
but I think that is being withdrawn
 
Yes, but COMBINE tried to be too much and there's no clear specification, AFAIK.
 
there's a blog about it
Was that not clear enough?
 
There are some implementations (I wrote one), but nothing finalized.
 
And a reference implementation for the experiment to understand how it could be written as a native.
COMBINE's WITH is something that I have thought might be more useful as hierarchy for block than as implicitly combining a block.
But other than that I don't know if it's very contentious.
 
9:53 AM
I don't mix up combine and compose
@HostileFork note that there is published code out there now using combine!
 
And it will still work :-)
I think that given how bad a name REFORM is, I've begun to believe that FORM is probably what should be COMBINE. I think it was the original intention, but I think the intention didn't quite think through the balance of when a primitive should reduce by default and how you might turn it off if not wanting it to reduce was rare.
 
So, the back tracking on do error was because it was too soon?
 
No, the back tracking is because I guess I don't know what harm it does in the long run if you're just going to give an error anyway.
I don't think it's intuitive enough that new users will go "how to I raise an error? Oh, I'll DO it!"
I think that's kind of random. I think they'll THROW it, so that's where I think the weird "no I'm not going to actually deliver your error" is worthwhile
Feed back to those people and say "no, don't do it like that".
 
yeah, arming an error using do is not obvious
 
I think people will naturally gravitate away from DO of error on their own with FAIL available.
Anyway, who knows, maybe always reminding people of FAIL even in that case is worth it too.
But still deliver the error that was asked, don't obscure it...which is what I did by making the error an argument to the "use FAIL" error
 
9:58 AM
there's a bit of trial and error here
 
But yeah, maybe wait a while and let people deal with things that are less trivial first than feeling they "have to go through and fix it because it says don't use DO". It's not that important.
And given that it was before the way to trigger errors, there are a lot of them out there.
 
Let's not make too much work for us
rebolbot needs to keep running
 
When architects/constructors go to build buildings they sort of "progressively render the whole building in" in phases, so that if it stops at any point you still have something to show.
As opposed to like, half of a building with no roof and run out of money... but with really nice balconies.
 
Did that guy who wanted to periodically scan a page and update a gui with its contents work it out?
Since Andreas' timer code never made it to mainline, I think we'd have to use two processes
I see his question was deleted from superuser before I could read it
 
10:15 AM
I think I looked up his timer code
I think it might have only worked on Windows or had some property of that sort
 
10:36 AM
anyway, one of my youtube videos shows a number of console clients updating a GUI
 
11:28 AM
So I think I'm going to take this fix of the thing Shixin was wanting and try making it extreme in a way that will probably open a can of worms. :-/ If I check to make sure all evaluation destination pointers are not in memory range of any series. This can be done relatively cheaply; you just check the bounds on the pages of the series memory pools and see if the pointer is in any of those, then check individual series data pointers only on the "system" pool where it resorts to malloc.
 
11:39 AM
I wonder if Rebol needs a PANIC. So like QUIT/NOW, except more clearly saying "do not do this as a way of subverting control because you just can't get the chain of control of nested scripts how you want it". Always return an error status, that sort of thing.
Good for when you've got industrial robots and you really do want to shut things off. Well, assuming you've got something so if the process shuts down the robots shut down too, as opposed to leaving them going.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:46 PM
@HostileFork Have you ever listened to black metal musette? :p
 
1:24 PM
@Morwenn I've heard a lot in my day, but I don't know about that particular...erm...thing, no. :) My discordance usually tops around Nine Inch Nails. Have sent a few you might not have caught, but you might give Just Like You Imagined a listen if you haven't.
 
@HostileFork Yeah, they are interesting. They even managed to get well-known with almost experimental things :)
Oh, and before I forget the track I had been waiting for.
 
@Morwenn Some potential in there, I dunno about the muddy piano, haven't heard it work since HardCore uproar in the 90s :-)
 
1:49 PM
posted on October 13, 2015 by hostilefork

In order to protect a series from being garbage collected in a way that was efficient and safe for recursively protecting and unprotecting the same series, the SAVE_SERIES and UNSAVE_SERIES macros existed. They used a stack to efficiently save and release the pointers, as well as to check in the debug build to make sure the last saved series was the next to be unsaved. No parallel way o

 
2:11 PM
@HostileFork It sounds like a mix between disco and almost-chiptune with 90s percussions :D
 
2:23 PM
@ShixinZeng ^-- We discussed that a while ago... went ahead and added it so I could get rid of that SER_LOCK series. But it seems to be useful in general. I'll go over places that push things to data stack to protect them and see when it's better to use that, probably several.
Some of this machinery is great for low level guts and it needs to exist, but there's really WAY too much code trying to use kernel-style-methodology. In the proper formulation of this problem there has to be much less raw C.
@IvanSukin So the above along with another commit, if you get merged up to the current version, should hopefully handle the issues you were having. But I can't get test-libs.r to work in Atronix's development version either. It just seems the format for structs changed, and presumably that is an older file.
 
2:50 PM
@IvanSukin Also, I just merged in Shixin's addition of extern to Ren/C...not tested, but now it's there...
 
@HostileFork Thank you, I will try to run some examples.
 
3:13 PM
From David den Haring (Atronix) on AltME: "I'll announce this officially in the Links group when we go live, but we're not far from publishing a Rebol3 reference specifically for our build of Rebol. We're generating the documentation using the latest interpreter, merging in examples/related/comments meta data and publishing it to our DokuWiki site. We'll post the documentation link on our downloads page. It's our first step to replacing the outdated Rebol3 documentation."
4
 
@pekr Well looking forward to seeing what they're up to! Hopefully all part of stuff that can be convergent.
 
4:03 PM
function: make function! [
	[spec body]
	[
		make function! compose/deep [
			[(spec) /local return]
			[
				return: make function! [
					[value {value to return}]
					[
						throw/name :return
					]
				]
				do (body)
			]
	]
]
Darn tabs. Anyway, I think the fact that locals are not done in a different way is a weakness...should be another type to help with composition like that so you don't get repeated /locals, or have to try to find it to insert at the right position. If locals were their own word type you could pull it off... issues? #return ...
Um, that's missing the value. Should be throw/name value :return.
Anyway, digressions aside, one thing is that the above is not in un-compiled Rebol very efficient. But what I suggested was that we make it so when you ask for the source of function it give you the source equivalent. Then write the efficient native by hand because we don't have JITs or fanciness. Use your imagination. :-/
Then have a debug build you run through test that uses the source equivalents instead of the native code body, now and again, to make sure they work the same as best you can tell.
But that's the basic schematic anyway. A fast version of that which behaves just like it.
Since it behaves just like it, that means anyone between the origin and the place invoking return could intercept a return not intended for them, if they set up a catch/name and had their hands on the return function somehow (e.g. were passed a word bound to it and did :return).
 
4:27 PM
So the next trick is how in the hack to make it such that MAKE FUNCTION! functions don't have return and function/func/etc do. Spec hack? But this is exactly what I am suggesting... when you make function! you don't get a return unless you do this.
Compatibility mitigation: keep a non-definitional return in the global context that acts the old way.
Oh, right. If FUNCTION and FUNC are natives with source equivalents then there doesn't need to be a spec hack, they just do the trick themselves. So now the option bit moves to the functions. "Hey are you the kind of function that is faking like you have a local return declared at top of your body, or are you not?"
 
@pekr Cool, but why not use the Announce group that's web public and has a feed?
 
@rgchris He said, it's not official. :-)
Wants to announce it when there's a page to link to.
 
Yes, but will 'announce this officially in the Links group' which is private. So maybe five people will see it.
 
Oh. I thought you meant why not have announced the above, as opposed to predictively second guessing the announcing plan...
 
Right.
Great thing about feeds is they get everywhere. I'm not tracking who uses the feeds, but posts to the AltMe announce group can at least be starred in SO Chat, shared on social networks, etc. Actually, gives me an idea...
 
4:48 PM
Hm. I guess you should be able to create a function which has a parameter that accepts no types, such that the argument could never be fulfilled...just in case it's something about the completeness of a generated programming scenario. Though I don't know. Maybe the burden should be on you to trap that specific error from MAKE FUNCTION! and put a less incoherent function in the spot.
Waitaminute. Refinements don't need the typeset bits.
That could be used for specialization order. (Previously known as apo: :append/only, though I don't know if I still think you should be able to do it with that precise notation.)
Ah, the joys of bit twiddling.
 
5:21 PM
That's the question to David, not me. Maybe he is not aware of such a feature. I will notify him ...
 
5:49 PM
OK, confirmed to be posted in the announce group ...
 
 
3 hours later…
8:47 PM
posted on October 13, 2015 by neurohax

[Hacker News] The dramatic simplicity and productivity of Rebol code on re-bol.com (1 point)

 
9:04 PM
@GrahamChiu I'm still looking at Ruby's mechanize and reviewing my meager Ruby skills. This would be my first experience in using several libraries (and possibly languages, we'll see) for accomplishing a task. In the process, I stumbled upon Selenium, which has a nice Firefox IDE extension for testing and getting started with it's functions.
@GrahamChiu Could you point me to that? Might be useful later on after I get the actual scraping right.
 
9:22 PM
@RebolBot
if: func [:condition [paren!] body [block!]] [lib/if do condition body]

if (1 < 2) [print "This is Training Wheels Mode"]
if [1 < 2] [print "It's forwards-compatible, expressions users learn to write in training wheels that work will still work when they take the training wheels off."]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
This is Training Wheels Mode
** Script error: if does not allow word! for its :condition argument
** Where: do either either either -apply-
** Near: do intern code

>>
 
@iArnold ^-- in case you missed the above idea in the past. In any case, LOOP-UNTIL and LOOP-WHILE as single arity variants are first-class superior. The only sensible other direction of change would be to turn WHILE single arity and then all the code could leave you hanging with "while this do... what?" the way UNTIL does.
It's hard to explain to non-artists what great art is.
Showing people a new way to think about problems in general is a lot more of an inspiring goal than just giving them new cognitive and terminology problems to trip over.
Hm, why'd that say "does not allow word" instead of block? :-/
In addition to WHILE condition DO body and UNTIL condition DO body lining up, there is a reason of coverage to not flip it to do the condition after in UNTIL. Namely you've already got that covered in both LOOP-WHILE condition and LOOP-UNTIL condition, where the "body" of everything you put before the last value in the condition is run before the conditional check. Now you have all four. And they make sense.
 
9:46 PM
Every time I sit down to look at FUNCTION's source I have to re-derive my understanding of why things are in there. e.g. why is there a /WITH instead of just doing some kind of bind on the body, so foo: function/with [spec] [body] [object] instead of foo: function [spec] in object [body]. Reason is, if you set any of the bound object fields it would locals-gather them and erase their binding in the function pass. Crazy machine.
 
@HostileFork Maybe you should keep your own commented source copy somewhere
 
@fadelm0 I think that place would be on the source there itself, I just tend to not do as much commenting on things when I'm not modifying something else about them.
 
@HostileFork Yeah, but I meant more extensive commenting, which you probably wouldn't do on the source itself
 
Sure I would. It's stripped out in bootstrap building.
Commenting on functionality and the "why" (vs. the "what") belongs in the code. So much of how most developers comment is what, and if you write your code well you barely need any "what" comments.
 
@HostileFork Hmm, well I guess it's different if you're working on modifying it vs. just analyzing :D
 
10:19 PM
posted on October 13, 2015 by Christopher Ross-Gill

Announce Pages Individual posts to this group will now have their own page. This page will be referenced to by the feed for this group (http://rebol.info/feeds/announce.feed). Colours will be respected, links detected and full names included. Each page will link to the reflector page for this group. Unless someone posts immediately before me, the link to this message will be: http://rebol.inf

2
 
11:00 PM
@Feeds Neat start! As a showcase, if possible there might be an editorial component to lose any entries that aren't announcements. (My natural tendency being of course to type in low numbers and read things...)
 
@HostileFork I think the solution would be to use something other than AltME as the publishing tool (was it NYTimes that were using Slack to liveblog?). Suggestions welcome though—whitelist, blacklist?
 
@rgchris Blacklist I guess. Could probably be just a form of link you don't share out except privately to those-authorized to add something onto the url to submit a blacklist request against it
 
This is on the same server as RebolBot, so could add a RebolBot command to add/remove from blacklist. That'd at least be transparent.
 
RebolBot feature development in general seems like a good idea to me
 
(as he pushes responsibility on to @johnk :)
Of course, I could just take out the Previous/Next links so the announcements aren't navigable.
 
11:23 PM
There's a lot of untapped potential in automation, and RebolBot can come in with "anyone can dialect" bit... I do think the Gitter and Trello and turnkey stuff mixed up with parse could show people something new.
It could also create an army of bot monsters. But, what's mad science without the risk?
 
Oh, I didn't know you had an AltMe thing going on
Is it new? Seems to go back only to August
 
@fadelm0 It covers the whole thing, I just haven't got around to fixing navigation. Motivation, other obligations, etc. As the users there have a preference for closed groups, it doesn't seem worth the time. Except for the Announce group.
It's been online since—I think—the beginning of last year. It was part of the effort to migrate functionality away from rebol.org in order to refocus that domain.
Unfinished business...
 
@rgchris How much code do you think would be broken badly by FORM of a block being the functionality of combine (e.g. reducing contents, merging strings, NONEs or functions returning no results omitted, CHAR! merged without spacing around them, blocks treated in-place recursively whether literal or returned from an evaluation, FORMing of all non-blocks, add /WITH for interstitial delimiting)
Then FORM/ONLY for no evaluation of blocks, but same logic.
>> form none
 
11:39 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "none"
 
Not much if you kept functionality of non-block behaviour. Ladislav once chided me for using FORM instead of TO-STRING, so perhaps it is something that is up for grabs.
 
>> form 'none
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "none"
 
The latter would still be the same, the former would be ""
 
Yes, I consider the former to be broken.
 
11:41 PM
@rgchris I meant the Announce group goes back only to August.
 
>> foreach value [<foo> 1234 set: #{decafbad}][probe to-string value probe form value]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
"foo"
"<foo>"
"1234"
"1234"
"set:"
"set:"
"ߊ�­"
"#{DECAFBAD}"
== "#{DECAFBAD}"
 
@rgchris So rebol.org will not be for scripts anymore?
 
The idea was for it to be the hub of the Rebol open source world.
Perhaps like rebol.net was, but by us, not a gatekeeper.
To do that meant gracefully redirecting existing rebol.org URLs to more focussed sub-sites.
With saner URLs!!!
 
11:46 PM
BINARY! is still an open question. Especially with PRINT of a BINARY! deciding that means raw bytes, at least in our conceptual trial to see how that pans out. I don't know if a "mold" of a binary is the natural candidate for FORM or if it should error or what. I'd say similar things about stuff like PORT!. That maybe when something is so open-ended a type as that, you're not necessarily doing as many favors as it seems by "just doing something with it without having to say what"
 
@rgchris Cool, I see
I like it
 
Though the above is a good point I hadn't thought of in the "could TO-STRING be MOLD"... if it were, how would you get a string out of a UTF-8 binary
 
There is nothing to compare. There is a lot to forget/incinerate when the migration is complete :D
Who does the designing of the new one?
Or wait, it's just redirection? Not migration?
 
Anyway we can think on if there's more value to having print x be write stdout form x equivalent with no exceptions. Uniformity has benefit, variance has benefit. We're already suggesting that print none (might) not be the same as print "", because of no newline, so there's a deviation already in that case.
 
11:51 PM
@fadelm0 It's intended to be a new collaborative site which the old rebol.org urls would redirect to (hence the redirection examples on the scripts home page). The scripts site isn't substantive at the moment, but is open source: github.com/revault/library.rebol.net
 
We can still get the console print behavior from write stdout BINARY and let print be tailored to stringiness.
 
@rgchris Ahh, I see. So the main server stays at rebol.org, and rebol.info is would just be like the visible cake
 
Well, rebol.info is a domain we have control over at the moment, so using that for staging.
So rebol.org would be a hub, library.rebol.org would replace the script library, help.rebol.org would be the help staging, etc.
 
@rgchris Staging as in, rehearsing, or testing before applying the whole thing to rebol.org?
 
Right.
If there's ever traction on that. Might be that rebol.info is the thing.
 

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