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1:05 AM
@giuliolunati Any type of browser security can be extended to this method.
 
1:57 AM
@HostileFork Sorry for my ambiguity. What I meant by Rebol 3 “holding me hostage with map!” was that for now I'm forced to use Rebol 3 rather than Rebol 2 or Red because it's the only one which currently has map!.
 
2:25 AM
@WiseGenius OIC.
 
2:58 AM
@WiseGenius I have not used map! datatype. But I wonder what are the differences between map! and hash! ?
 
3:08 AM
@qtxie Hash can be accessed as a block can, and is iterated with order. It just has accelerated lookup.
 
A map is key/value store, unordered.
I have said that I do not believe HASH! should be a datatype, because it is just an added index on top of the function of BLOCK!. New datatypes should be about having new interfaces.
If you want to accelerate certain kinds of access on a block and have it still be a block, then blk: [a b c d] hint blk [hash] is a better way to do it, for instance
 
map! was introduced to solve some of the problems listed in the link above. Odd that case-sensitivity was mentioned there already.
 
Similarly, I have argued that FUNCTION! and CLOSURE! should not be different data types
 
@qtxie 1. For hash!, all values are keys, even the content values.
@RebolBot do/2
h: make hash! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
print h/("a")
print h/("b")
 
3:17 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
b
c
 
For map!, this is not so.
@RebolBot
m: make map! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
print m/("a")
print m/("b")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
b
none
 
I think hash! is cool and Rebol3 should support it, I just don't think it should be a different type.
Lots of other hints you could give the implementation. hint blk [min-length: 10 max-length: 100]
I like the idea of all such hints being "ignorable" in that the worst that can happen if you give it a wrong hint is that performance will be weird.
 
@qtxie 2. For hash!, you cannot add new values using the key value assignment form.
@RebolBot do/2
h: make hash! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
h/("e"): "f"
print h/("e")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-invalid-path.html
    *** ERROR
code: 311
type: script
id: invalid-path
arg1: "e"
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [h/("e"): "f"
    print h/("e")
]
where: none
 
3:22 AM
For map!, you can.
@RebolBot
m: make map! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
m/("e"): "f"
print m/("e")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
f
 
@RebolBot
map ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    "a" "b"
    "c" "d"
]
 
There have been grumblings about the usage of words like "map" and "object" to be synonyms for "make map!" and "make object!"
In doing Rebmu development, I was led to consider things like "map~" and "object~", then contracted to "m~" and "o~"
The "immovable object" in this case, though, is not object... but FUNCTION.
No one likes x: function~ [foo] [print foo]
 
@WiseGenius Hmm, seems map! is more efficient than hash! if we only need key->value mapping.
 
3:29 AM
@qtxie map is a good thing, the key question Doc has asked is "how is it really distinct from object? Is there a solid rationale of why both types are needed?"
Many languages get away with just one type for both.
 
@HostileFork I like this symbol "o~", it looks like a tadpole. ;-)
 
@qtxie Fish language (esolangs)
Someone (not me) made a Rebmu page on esolangs
 
@HostileFork That's interesting. :D
 
@HostileFork The map word does seem redundant, but also consistent. I was thinking the other day, that if map! had a case-sensitivity mode/form/attribute (with case-sensitive being the default, of course), and if map had some sort of refinement for setting that mode or whatever at the map!'s creation, then maybe it wouldn't seem so redundant. However it's probably a ridiculous idea, and I haven't thought it through.
 
@WiseGenius You could take care of it with OBJECT/CASE or similar. There may be no reason to have two types.
Tremendous precedent exists saying people have favored languages that do not make the distinction.
 
3:45 AM
@HostileFork I was referring to the grumblings about the map word. However, I am also having trouble imagining how the map! datatype could be replaced with the object! datatype.
 
@WiseGenius There is an implementation block, in that words become bound inside of objects, and that binding is done by an offset number into the object, so shuffling objects would muck with it.
I usually think of implementation issues like that as "tail wagging the dog" myself
Make the binding have a stamp of some kind, if the object is shuffled change the stamp, have the reference check the stamp before using the offset it cached, etc.
Computers may not be "smarter" than human programmers (yet). But they certainly make fewer mistakes...and get better at doing more operations while still making fewer mistakes as each year passes. I, for one, welcome our robot overlords.
Pursuant to that, though, is to focus on the language ergonomics. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to add or remove keys from objects. It doesn't offer any benefit to anyone but the person implementing the language and runtime.
If it's Haskell then sure, not being able to change an object is a feature. But in Rebol/Red it's just arbitrary.
 
4:15 AM
@HostileFork Please excuse my lack of imagination: What would the object! equivalent of make map! ["1" "a" 1 "b"] be?
 
@WiseGenius object/only ["1" "a" 1 "b"]
It could also be called map, for convenience. But object construction does evaluation and only picks up set-words as keys.
>> object [a: "hello" print "everybody wang chung tonight" b: c: 10 3 + 4]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
everybody wang chung tonight
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               string!   "hello"
   b               integer!  10
   c               integer!  10
 
You'd need a way to construct objects that didn't do that.
 
What would it's literal look like?
 
4:33 AM
>> map ["1" "a" 1 "b"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    "1" "a"
    1 "b"
]
 
== make object! [
    "1"       string! "a"
    1         string! "b"
]
@WiseGenius I dunno, something like that?
 
Sorry, I meant for: object [a: "hello" print "everybody wang chung tonight" b: c: 10 3 + 4]
 
>> mold object [a: "hello" print "everybody wang chung tonight" b: c: 10 3 + 4]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
everybody wang chung tonight
== {make object! [
    a: "hello"
    b: 10
    c: 10
]}
 
4:36 AM
The thing is, object construction reduces everything down to pairs.
There's no real reason why you couldn't do that if it held map entries.
I might even suggest that the weird non-map behavior of object be quarantined to the function object, and that make object! only take pairs the way map does.
Then toss map and all's well.
Except for the detail aforementioned, of how integer indexes into objects feature prominently in the implementation, which leads to nasty effects like not being able to remove keys from objects. I'm merely suggesting that if we are writing the book here, that such arbitrary non-features are addressed with smarter implementations.
Because if JavaScript is beating you, then that's just sad.
 
@HostileFork Very true!
Silly question: Would you distinguish between word! keys and set-word! keys?
 
>> <foo> = "FoO"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
I hate that.
The case-insensitivity is just a thing. It's the law of the land. Okay.
Breathe in, breathe out, it's all right.
But different types are different.
>> quote foo: = quote foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
4:44 AM
If you do OBJECT/ONLY then I think words and set-words should be distingushed.
 
>> help object
 
If you do OBJECT then a set-word is a signal to use those as keys on words
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    OBJECT blk

DESCRIPTION:
    Defines a unique object.
    OBJECT is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    blk -- Object words and values (modified) (block!)
 
It's not that you've put set-word keys into the object. In the spec you used set words to call out which words to key on.
So I might indeed say:
'>> object [a: 10 b: 20]
== make object! [
    a 10
    b 20
]
 
@RebolBot m: make map! ["1" "x" 1 "y" a "p" a: "q" <foo> "F" "FoO" "G"]
 
4:46 AM
@WiseGenius Can you elaborate on that?
 
@WiseGenius Without a newline, you must use DO.
@RebolBot do m: make map! ["1" "x" 1 "y" a "p" a: "q" <foo> "F" "FoO" "G"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    "1" "x"
    1 "y"
    a "q"
    <foo> "F"
    "FoO" "G"
]
 
RebolBot speaks RebolBot dialect. :-)
Not the DO "dialect"
 
@HostileFork I know. I just forget sometimes, because it doesn't seem to be used as often, haha.
If the a and a: had been distinguished there, which one would m/a: "r" change?
 
@WiseGenius It's my opinion that path-based lookups should use = semantics for the lookup. It's also my opinion that different types are not = with only a couple of exceptions: 1 = 1.0 and "a" = #"a" for instance.
 
4:53 AM
@HostileFork Interesting choice of exceptions.
 
Then ~= is the operator for "similar to and more or less the same", so I am okay with <foo> ~= "FoO"
And == getting "strict equality" so type and case must match.
>> select [foo: "bar" baz: "mumble"] 'baz
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "mumble"
 
That doesn't make me all that comfortable.
>> select [foo: "bar" baz: "mumble"] quote baz:
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "mumble"
 
I am of course fine with that.
It's not necessary to say that the semantics of FIND and SELECT and the rest of the system operate on the same logic as =. Language design has a lot of leeway.
But for the sake of sanity, I feel only items that would be = should count as matches for FIND and SELECT.
And I don't care for 'foo = quote bar: being true, myself.
 
5:03 AM
@HostileFork why would 'foo = quote bar: be true? Or did you mean 'foo = quote foo:?
 
@WiseGenius Yes just mistyped.
 
So how would I construct an `object!` to get:
["1" "x" 1 "y" a "p" a: "q" <foo> "F" "FoO" "G"]
to result in:
[
"1" "x"
1 "y"
a "q"
<foo> "F"
"FoO" "G"
]
the way it does in `map!`?
 
>> map [a: 10 a 20]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    a: 20
]
 
>> map [<a> 10 "a" 20]
 
5:06 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    <a> 10
    "a" 20
]
 
See that's just hypocrisy there.
 
Haha!
 
And the sort of thing I gripe about.
There's a lot of "shoot from the hip" in Rebol's design, not the kind of painstaking standards-based language-lawyer stuff that software formalists like me want.
If you can't canonize all string classes down to one case, I don't see why you should canonize all word classes to one case.
And if you were going to pick a canon, I'd pick word over set-word.
Because you usually look up by word, not by set-word.
I say "respect the types, act predictably". Put the weird logic into object as a construction function and let the underlying machinery be coherent.
 
@HostileFork you're the guy who'll only want to paint in primary colors
 
@HappySpoon I'm the guy who'll design the wavelengths of light such that the universe holds together instead of crumbling because it was made by kindergartners with incoherent ideas.
And then we all can fingerpaint and have good fun after that.
With whatever colors we like.
 
5:14 AM
See what happens to a brick house in an earthquake vs one made from cob
 
@HappySpoon I don't think one should conflate a confused design with resilience.
The problem with brick isn't its firmness, but its lack of resilience to known environmental problems.
And no, you don't see lots of brick in LA.
 
@RebolBot
m: map [a: 10 a 20]
m/(quote a:): 30
m
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    a: 30
]
 
@HostileFork So would you say:

o: object/only [a: 10 a 20]
o/(quote a:): 30
o

should result in:

make object! [a: 30 a 20]

?
 
5:30 AM
@WiseGenius Something like that would make sense, if an object/map unification were to be pursued.
 
...sorry, that's if we weren't using = semantics for path-based lookups.
 
Well, if you're using my = then it would be.
All single character strings canonized to characters, 1.0 canonized to 1, etc.
 
And make object! [a: 30 a 20] should result in?
 
The 1.0 = 1 doesn't come from me. That's simply something people like Doc consider non-negotiable as returning true.
Same as object/only.
If you use object [a: 30 a 20] you'd get just make object [a: 30]. The a would be evaluated as 30, and tossed, and the 20 would be tossed. As today.
 
And object [a: 30 a 20]?
 
5:33 AM
>> object [a: 30 a 20]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               integer!  30
 
Righto.
 
Anyway, that is at least the start of how one would unify object and map.
It's possible, the toughest bit being that giving objects such dynamism makes them trickier under the hood to do efficiently.
 
o: object [a: 30]
o/("a"): 40
 
>> "a" = quote a:
 
5:37 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
Currently equality only works if things are in the same "class". So any-string! is equal to another any-string!, any-word! equal to another any-word!, etc.
I'd be okay with "a" ~= quote a: being true, even though one is a string and the other a word.
And I suggest "a" = #"a" being true, while "a" == #"a" being false.
So = becomes the "common case" of what you probably care about, subdivided into a more-lax ~= and a stricter ==, that you use purposefully.
People need to trust =, it should really be the most common desire, and it shouldn't trip you up. The case-insensitivity already has people freaking out a little, but that seems to be life.
I say don't make it much worse than that.
 
Sorry, I'm still trying to get my head around this. So would the difference between object and object/only just be in how it reads the initial values, or would it change some attribute of the variable so that all future behaviour would be different?
 
@WiseGenius Only changes the construction. object [a: b: c: 1] has fields a and b and c which are set to 1, so make object! [a 1 b 1 c 1]. Then object/only [a: b: c: 1] becomes make object! [a: b: c: 1]... if you look up the key a: you get back the set-word b:, and if you look up c: you find 1.
The thing is, something one does often in Rebol is try and process Rebol structures.
It's necessary to be able to distinguish set-words from words, if you are metaprogramming. So you really might want to have a set-word key and a get-word value and have it work properly. Making the underlying machinery respect the type system is practical.
>> help construct
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    CONSTRUCT block /with object /only

DESCRIPTION:
    Creates an object with scant (safe) evaluation.
    CONSTRUCT is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    block -- Specification (modified) (block! string! binary!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /with -- Default object
        object (object!)
    /only -- Values are kept as-is
 
Construct is a kind of "object/only"
That I don't like.
And think it should actually be "object/only"
It's used internally, for instance, to load header blocks... where you don't want to allow evaluation.
(security reasons)
 
5:51 AM
So would:

o: object [a: 30]
o/("a"): 40
o

result in:

make object! [a: 30 "a" 40]

?
 
@WiseGenius Seems reasonable to me (in the parallel universe we are discussing where object and map are unified) Although I'd canonize that to #"a" instead of "a"
>> "a" = first "abc"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
>> parse "abc" ["a" "b" "c"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Several people, not just me, believe that having the general test for equality equate single character strings with a character is a good idea.
 
5:57 AM
That clears that part of my confusion up, thanks.
 
@WiseGenius None of this is super well plotted out, but Doc has on several occasions wondered why map is necessary.
He may not like the implications of what it takes to unify them. Or he might. Who knows?
 
The other part of my confusion is about case-sensitivity. In this universe of unification, what would this result in?

o: object/case ["a" 1 "A" 2]
o/("a"): 3
o/("A"): 4
o/("b"): 5
o/("B"): 6
o
 
I'd worry a bit that his answers would come back as being very much implementation-biased. It's kind of like when you try to suggest new types in Rebol and some argument comes back about the type being encoded in N bits and if too many types existed then it would require N+1 bits... I always roll my eyes at that.
The / for path lookup needs to be case INsensitive for reasons of consistency.
If objects (a.k.a. lookup contexts) could have case sensitivity in their keys, then SET and GET would need /CASE refinements.
In the absence of such a refinement, a winner would have to be determined by fiat.
>> select ["A" 20 "a" 10 "a" 30] "a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 20
 
>> select/case ["A" 20 "a" 10 "a" 30] "a"
 
6:06 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 10
 
Should it have been [10 30] in the second case, and [20 10 30] in the first? Hmmm...
Well it isn't.
It's Rebol, not SQL.
>> map ["a" 10 "A" 20]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make map! [
    "a" 20
]
 
Definitely just a bug. Map creation should be case-sensitive, and lookup case-insensitive unless you use /CASE.
But which should it pick? I guess you could be arbitrary. I'm not sure if it's more helpful or less helpful to make the case you passed in the default answer.
So a case-insensitive lookup would be willing to return for "A" or "a", but if you asked for "a" it would prefer whatever was associated with that... and only give the "A" result as a fall-through.
 
6:31 AM
@HostileFork In Rebol 3, it is currently impossible for a map! to have both "a" and "A" as separate keys. I assumed that this was what people wanting case-sensitive keys by default were upset about. It's certainly what I'm upset about!
 
@WiseGenius As I say, it just sounds like a bug. The pattern in Rebol is case preservation, but case-insensitive lookup by default which you can override.
I would suggest the primitive or foundational mold notation be equivalent to "MAP/CASE" or whatever, and have the case collapse on storage be optional.
The more radical "map and object unification" is worth talking about, also.
And has come up before.
@RebolBot
foo: [abc "hello" ABc "world"]
select/case foo 'ABc
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "world"
 
6:52 AM
@HostileFork Well this “bug” makes map! useless for many real world problems (unless maybe you work around it with the to-binary suggestion but I haven't tried that yet. @giuliolunati Have you?). I had assumed map! was optimized in a way that excluded case-sensitivity, making a “bug fix” difficult, but I haven't looked at the code so maybe this isn't true at all.
 
@WiseGenius It's trivial to change if you define what the change is. As maps have no order, how would you prioritize a case-insensitive lookup when both exist? Lowercase wins? Uppercase wins? The case you passed in wins? This other issue about WORD! vs. SET-WORD! comes up as well. I know what I would do, but that's just me.
Case-insensitive hashing is not rocket science. Do two lookups. Done.
I kind of like the idea of preferring the case of what you pass in, for the case-insensitive lookups, and then doing a fallthrough... that's different from series though, which use order. But there's no ordering in maps/objects to fall back on.
It wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if select [abc "foo" ABc "bar"] 'ABc gave you "bar"... and select [abc "foo"] 'ABc gave you "foo"; and it doesn't require two full passes; your worst case is one pass that is exhausted where you had stowed away the fallback match.
 
@HostileFork I'm currently heading towards a clear separation between object! and map!. Objects would be used to provide code modularization (at finer-grained level than module!), map! would be a simple dictionary optimized for speed and relaxed handling of undefined keys (keys being words only), and I would get back hash! from Rebol2 to provide a navigable, general-purpose hash-table structure (anything can be a key).
 
@DocKimbel Well, please spec it before you implement it. I have mentioned repeatedly that hash! should not be a separate data type if its interface is the same as block; it is merely an indexing hint not a separate type. I've asked also that closure! and function! not be separate types but encode their difference within their spec.
It is not useful to users to have to worry about something called any-function!, that's just cutting things at the wrong line.
 
7:08 AM
@HostileFork This would kill the CODE => DATA => CODE chain when you need to mold/load hashed blocks (unless you want to change the literal form of blocks, which is a no-go).
Sorry, should have said: values => string => values chain.
 
@DocKimbel There is a reason construction syntax exists; if there is out of band data that the literal cannot store.
And I'd argue that really, it is a block. It's just as likely that another client would want hashed lookup vs. not.
Why, if I want accelerated access on a block, should routines have to be modified in their type signatures to accept it?
Why shouldn't I be able to hash or unhash and then pass the block in, if all operations are legal on both?
Think about SQL and indexes.
A new type should mean new interface.
Not new performance characteristic.
 
I'm not totally against the idea of having optional hashing for blocks. Though, I want to be extra-careful (unlike you) when some deep changes are done on core features of the language.
 
@DocKimbel Well, proposals need to be bold. Implementations need to be careful.
 
@HostileFork What hashing function does map! use in Rebol3? How does it handle collisions? Just a linked-list or something smarter?
 
@DocKimbel It wasn't sophisticated, I'd have to look.
@DocKimbel Not linked lists, uses series for buckets.
 
7:23 AM
@HostileFork Ok, so collisions end up being handled in linear time?
 
So it would seem.
 
Hmm, old-fashion way, I was hoping for some more sophisticate methods.
What about the hashing algorithm itself? Knuth's hashing function or a more modern one?
 
@DocKimbel Depends on type. Hash_Value
 
@DocKimbel Will Red's hash! feature anything new from Rebol 3's map!? Will I be able to do anything like this in Red?:
@RebolBot
m: make map! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
m/("e"): "f"
print m/("e")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
f
 
7:35 AM
I wouldn't worry with premature optimization about that kind of thing. If someone has enough incentive they can always tweak. Maybe I'm just old but I let other people worry about it...my days of writing background threads that rehash are over. ("CPU is idle...let's build SIDESTRUCTURES!")
So I'd keep the focus on the very user-facing questions of how many of these types and classes are necessary. Language ergonomics.
Are you letting the tail-wag-the-dog by saying you can't remove keys from objects, when languages like JavaScript allow it.
 
I'm having trouble getting hash! in Rebol 2 to skip 2 properly the way map! does automatically:
@RebolBot
m: make map! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
print m/("a")
print m/("b")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
b
none
 
@RebolBot do/2
h: make hash! ["a" "b" "c" "d"]
select/skip h "a" 2
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== make hash! ["b"]
 
@WiseGenius No, it will act the same as a block.
@HostileFork There are no "keys" in Red objects, no removal of words possible. JS has a unified object/map model, Red will most probably go with a separate model.
 
7:44 AM
@DocKimbel Okay, but "why?"
I think it is implementation tail wagging the dog. You want to bind, and you want to bind by integer.
I don't think it is because users of the language are served by the design choice.
 
@WiseGenius You need /skip for specifying record size, so /skip ... 2will emulate the map! behavior.
 
If your bindings go stale you'd need some kind of stamping mechanism, it has a cost.
 
@DocKimbel So what am I doing wrong that it doesn't return "b" instead of make hash! ["b"] in the example above?
 
@HostileFork For sake of simplicity and coherence. Having two datatypes that are having (almost) the same sematics and no clear difference at runtime, is just confusing for the users. You can ask many Rebol3 users about that, people simply stick with one or another, with no special reason other than personal taste. I want clarity in Red, not confusion.
@WiseGenius You're not doing anything wrong, this is just a weirdness of hash! in Rebol2, that I don't intend to propagate in Red.
 
@DocKimbel Thank you!
 
7:52 AM
@HostileFork I don't follow you. Can you show an example?
 
@DocKimbel Hard to grasp your point. Your point is that having two data types, and by arbitrarily crippling them so they are delineated as distinct despite this offering no user-facing advantage, is good because it is clarification?
I'd think that the one type that worked consistently would be better, all things being equal.
@DocKimbel Well I am just kind of trying to reverse-engineer the you can't delete fields/keys/whatever you want to call them from objects. As a user it sucks. I have seen how Rebol does binding, and there is an implementation advantage to making objects purely additive.
So I was assuming that saying "you can't do that to an object" was coming from an implementation perspective.
 
@HostileFork In Red also, removal would be hard or impossible to implement in a simple way, especially for the compiler.
 
@DocKimbel "impossible" seems a bit strong.
 
@HostileFork There is a reason we have many datatypes and not 1 or 2 only. I think this is an advantage for the user, by making explicit the usage goals. I am not a fan of one-type-fits-all-need approach, like Lua does.
@HostileFork I said "impossible in a simple way".
 
@DocKimbel Well, I think, in explaining one's decisions, it is worth it to lay out certain alternatives. "We could have done it this way" and then map it, and then go "but here is the compelling reason we did not".
The lack of mapping out the territory of what one could have done but didn't with strong rationale has been a problem for serious language theorists looking at Rebol, so it would be sad if that wound up applying to Red.
 
8:00 AM
I explained above briefly why. In Red, objects and maps will be addressing fundamentally different needs.
 
Well, I am both an intelligent person and relatively well-versed in the languages.
And I don't understand your discernment.
Consider me a canary in your coal mine. en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine
 
@HostileFork I franckly do not build Red to appeal to "serious language theorists". We want an efficient practical tool with high degree of productivity and low entry barrier for the largest number of programmers.
 
@DocKimbel Well, if you are working on numbers of users instead of on principles of design and ideas, I would suggest you might be on the wrong project!
These are projects of principle, not maximum users.
Maybe the users will come in time.
But if you wanted maximum users, you could have done many other things with your life.
I still claim or adhere that the reason is that current programming is kind of messed up, and someone needs to light a candle in the darkness.
There are lots of candles to light; the functional programming angle is one, I think Rebol and Red are very different in terms of what they have to show and share.
And so it becomes important to get things right, to be solid. Anything worth doing, that you spend time on and invest years in, even decades here in a sense, is worth doing right.
 
@DocKimbel - not remember the reasoning, but - IIRC, you said, that we will not be able to add fields to objects (nor to remove them). R3 allows that IIRC (not sure about the removal). Is your reasoning about the difficulcy to implement it in terms of compiler? Sorry if you already explained in the past ...
 
@HostileFork If Doc is already on the wrong project! That makes me smile! :-)
 
8:07 AM
What I mean is - what is the penalty cost in R3 for e.g., for "reconstructing" object vs just add/remove fields?
 
@pekr I have both implementation and design principle concerns about allowing that.
 
@pekr When you bind things, they become indexes... think like offsets into a C++ struct or class. You can't add fields to structures in C or C++.
References are compiled to refer to offsets, the run-time interpretation of re-evaluating where the information is would be costly; to manage the memory layout would be costly. Objects effectively become maps; and this is how JavaScript and such work.
Doc thinks that perhaps allowing the user to control whether something is an "object" or a "map" is an interesting degree of freedom; effectively informing the compiler about what features you need, and if you don't need the dynamism you don't pay for it.
I do not find this degree of freedom very interesting, myself, at a language level.
 
@HostileFork Working on an “efficient practical tool with high degree of productivity and low entry barrier for the largest number of programmers” is not mutually exclusive to working on “principles of design and ideas” by any stretch!
 
@WiseGenius You say that. But... y'know... people have a lot of bad taste and myopia.
Success is when you do something you are proud of.
 
Well. Isn't Red, with its mixture of compiled, interpreted, JITtted nature in a different position, than Rebol is?
 
8:33 AM
@HostileFork Now that I understand your unified object!-map! idea better (thanks), and that you were assuming that key-creation was always case-sensitive (and not part of the optionality we were discussing (as I had thought)), your “Crazy idea” (which I already thought was interesting) to “let a//b mean "case-sensitive path look up" as a parallel to the difference between = and ==” makes more sense to me.
Have you given it much thought since then?
 
>> help new-line
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    NEW-LINE position value /all /skip size

DESCRIPTION:
    Sets or clears the new-line marker within a block or paren.
    NEW-LINE is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    position -- Position to change marker (modified) (block! paren!)
    value -- Set TRUE for newline

REFINEMENTS:
    /all -- Set/clear marker to end of series
    /skip -- Set/clear marker periodically to the end of the series
        size (integer!)
 
>> mold head new-line skip [a b c] true
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: new-line is missing its value argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
>> mold head new-line next [a b c] true
 
8:35 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "[a^/    b c^/]"
 
>> print mold head new-line next [a b c] true
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[a
    b c
]
 
@WiseGenius There is precedent for having bits of state on series items, though only for formatting.
It's not as completely insane as I made it out to be, but in a language whose goal is complexity elimination, it has a "bad vibe"
I wouldn't look at the code and think "oh, this is salient and cool". You've got to draw the line against gibberish.
I was just talking out loud about something that occurred to me because it seemed that the verbage of SELECT/CASE was heavy, and people wanted a path notation way of getting that /CASE. A better way may exist to signal path notation to do it... // is not it.
Even foo/(/case 'bar) would be better.
"in path evaluation, a refinement at the beginning of a paren group means that whatever the rest of the paren evaluates to will be looked up with case-sensitive semantics". Eh, why not?
 
@HostileFork select does add up a LOT!.
 
But not foo//bar.
 
8:57 AM
@WiseGenius Have to go, but glad you're taking an interest. There's still time to hammer out these questions. It's a double-edged sword that Rebol has been around so long... lots of cool design bits... and a lot of opportunity to build rational answers for both Rebol and Red. Maybe it could make a big splash, there's much more thinking in here than in Node.JS for instance.
 
@HostileFork Thanks for patiently explaining everything. C U
 
 
2 hours later…
11:04 AM
Several of my projects have lots of map!s within map!s. I can see that when switching to Red's future hash!, much of my code could become quite verbose:
a/("b")/("c")/("d"): "e"

will probably become something like:

if (type? (try [change/only select/only/case/skip select/only/case/skip select/only/case/skip a "b" 2 "c" 2 "d" 2 "e"])) = error! [append select/only/skip select/only/skip a "b" 2 "c" 2 ["d" "e"]]
Although I'll miss the brevity that the syntax of Rebol 3's map! offers, I don't see how Red's future hash! will lose any functionality. On the contrary, now we can have case-sensitivity when we need it!
I'm very much looking forward to switching completely to Red!
3
 
11:20 AM
0
Q: Why does random not work in GUI in REBOL?

CaridorcThis very simple script: REBOL [] view layout [ button "Rand" [alert to-string random 100] ] gives the following results: 1-st run: 95, 52, 80, 96 ... 2-nd run: 95, 52, 80, 96 ... 3-rd run: 95, 52, 80, 96 ... ... This is obviously not random because the same numbers repeat over and ove...

 
11:48 AM
0
A: Why does random not work in GUI in REBOL?

iArnoldAre you also restarting Rebol? Random gets seeded every first time, so it is not completely surprising to see the same sequence, in such a case.

1
A: Why does random not work in GUI in REBOL?

WiseGeniusIt sounds like you'd like to start with a different seed each time you run your script. Typically, the current time is used as a seed in these cases. This has nothing to do with whether you're using the GUI or not. Try: REBOL [] random/seed now/precise view layout [ button "Rand" [alert to-...

 
12:34 PM
@rgchris @HappySpoon it looks like altme on the ec2 box was still running. I gave it a kick for good measure.
 
@johnk That seemed to do the trick.
 
good :) - pretty impressive that it had been running untouched for over 7 months
 
Yep, just need to move it to the new box :)
 
Shouldn't be too hard. I have jwm and Xvfb up and running.
 
12:59 PM
Ok that was surprisingly easy. altme up and running on digital ocean in /home/rebolbot/altme
 
1:28 PM
@WiseGenius Our friend has almost 20 points now!
 
Done!
 
@WiseGenius High Five!
 
2:20 PM
0
Q: Why do function "have memory" in REBOL?

CaridorcIn rebol I have written this very simple function: make-password: func[Length] [ chars: "QWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKLZXCVBNM1234567890" password: "" loop Length [append password (pick chars random Length)] password ] When I run this multiple times in a row things get really confusin...

 
^-- Ah, a good question, who wants to answer it? :-)
I guess it should be me, huh
The old pieces that I have salvaged from hard drives, like little musical scraps, are kind of sticking in my head now. e.g. montage.mp3
Not that it's great art or anything
Unedited, just noodling
Less than a molecule in a drop of a bucket in the musical history of Earth, yet I somehow feel a little bit heroic in bothering to go find old sequencer tools to rescue it
 
2:37 PM
@HostileFork rlemon.ca/stardust.html happy friday!
 
@rlemon Nifty looking. What is it?
 
making people lose the game :P
 
@rlemon Ever see The Game?
 
yes
 
I liked it.
 
2:39 PM
it was okay
 
Generally I think David Fincher does good, it was early yet in his directing.
Panic Room I didn't find all that great.
(I went to film school)
And I like music videos, so music video directors who tackle film are often up my alley
Fight Club is near pitch perfect.
Saw it a couple years ago and it's still rock solid.
Last time I saw Blade Runner it was looking a little frayed on the edges here and there.
To make something timeless... that's our goal here in Rebol and Red.
(Well, that's my goal anyway. I assume a few others are on board.)
@rlemon I tinkered with HTML canvas one time, helping someone who wanted to make a game where you were solving a maze where you could spin tiles. metaeducation.com/media/shared/ellen/GridMaze
I found it irritating, but I find most JavaScript irritating. She lost interest as the basics of things like just calculating which cells in grid pieces should be solid vs not was essentially "boring"
@rlemon In the "game" you can swipe the mouse with button down left or right on a subsection. metaeducation.com/media/shared/ellen/GridMaze/…
 
yea playing on and off right now
:P
 
Well it never got finished, because as I say, she got bored
I wanted to call it "Spin Wizard" and get it finished
It's not a bad idea
Anyway, canvas was clunky, maybe it's gotten better
That "cut the rope" was pretty impressive, it was kind of the first HTML5 game I thought "nice job"
But even that wouldn't run in all browsers.
 
it's better now
 
Well the concept on the spin wizard was that you'd have these subtiles, and a certain number of moves to achieve your goals.
And your magic power is to be able to spin tiles, but that costs a move, as does taking a step.
I grew up playing "Ultimate Wizard" which was, at the time, one of the best games around.
Itself a "Jumpman"-derivative, but with a level editor. Really sweet.
Not that you kids would understand. And hey, get off my lawn! :-P
Heh, before Electronic Arts distributed it, it was sold by a company that called itself "Progressive Peripherals and Software"
Someone needs to take a branding class.
 
2:54 PM
hehe never played that
I was too busy playing this:
 
@rlemon Some kind of scorched earth thing?
"Before there was Angry Birds..."
 
@HostileFork yea, old DOS game called Gorillas
you throw bananas at eachother
 
Never played it, I heard of it though, if it was in BASIC
 
I believe it was
 
Did Bill Gates write it?
There is a story about Bill Gates writing a very inefficient Flood Fill algorithm... I don't think he was a virtuoso programmer at any point.
 
2:58 PM
Gorillas is a video game first distributed with MS-DOS 5 and published in 1991 by IBM corporation. It is a turn-based artillery game. The game consists of two gorillas throwing explosive bananas at each other above a city skyline. The players can adjust the angle and velocity of each throw, as well as the gravitational pull of the planet. Written in QBasic, it is one of the programs included as a demonstration of that programming language. The others are Nibbles (another game), Money (a very simple financial calculator), and REMLINE (a program to remove line numbers from old BASIC programs). ...
just says IBM corp
I wonder which came first, they were both released in 91
 
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