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12:21 AM
Hm. I would have expected them to just MOLD. What of GET-WORD/PATH?
combine [a '- :b '- 'c]
== {Aye-"Bee"-c}
 
@rgchris Everything COMBINE runs over gets evaluated before examination, so the :b would be run and do the get.
 
(and no I don't pronounce 'A' 'Aye')
 
I'm of the opinion that printing symbols as words is "bad"; a likely sign of an error, in terms of value added.
You are better to write print [{Hello}] than print ['Hello].
Words being limited in their spellings, and a bit confusing in terms of their case-sensitivity in general, suggests that an evaluative interpretation would be more useful.
In further thinking I have also reversed my stance that a delimiter not apply all the way inside nestings as a default.
combine/with [{Foo} [{Baz} {Bar}] {Mumble}] [{,} space] => Foo, Baz, Bar, Mumble
So the burden if you only want it 1-deep is to write combine/with [{Foo} [{Baz} {Bar}] {Mumble}] func [depth s] [if/only depth = 1 [{,} space]]
My goal is to make COMBINE/WITH a SPACE the behavior of PRINT on blocks.
 
I'm not against it—it's a wee bit contrary to the use of LIT-WORDs elsewhere, but might be worth a try.
 
12:55 AM
@rgchris At first I thought of using get-word!, but then when I was thinking of trying to define behavior for the non-block version of print, you couldn't get compatibility with print :foo and print [:foo] because the get-word would evaluate before print has a chance to look at it. By having it be the behavior for if you get a word or path and using the normal evaluator, then print 'foo and print ['foo] can do the same thing.
It's a nice shorthand and I never really liked the word "MOLD" popping up all over the place. The idea that a nested block is expanded using the same dialect rules as the outer block, specifically COMBINE rules, means you can easily build these subpatterns of blocks like having a nested parse rule.
Along with all the other benefits of combine. One question is whether or not PRINT should have a /WITH refinement for changing the delimiter or if that would require going to PRINT COMBINE/WITH [...] delim and passing print a string. I don't know if I have a strong opinion.
I feel like putting the /WITH on PRINT is making it too complicated.
I am still hesitant about COMBINE making blocks. It starts to get unwieldy and the concerns are very different. There's COMPOSE and Ladislav's BUILD already...it really is a domain which needs other features than stringification does.
And if you're targeting blocks, then combine of a 'x needs to put a symbolic x in the result.
Suppression of evaluation for tokens is so integral to block building that I don't see how useful COMBINE would be given the other options.
blk: [a]
bprint:  [{blk:} 'blk]
print [{At the start,} bprint]
append blk 'b
print [{After appending,} bprint]
 
@HostileFork A get-word! (or even just a plain word, in this particular case?) would make that look more natural.
 
@earl Yes, I messed up, corrected.
You could say mold blk but I think it's cooler.
 
Same. Why the need for 'BLK, wouldn't just plain BLK do?
Ah, "get-and-mold".
 
@earl In a PRINT based on COMBINE, blocks are handled as nested combines by default.
 
Strikes me as too "cute" an idea, at first glance.
 
1:10 AM
Well the goal is to try and ease the pain and bridge the gap for those who would complain that they don't want combine semantics on print because they'd wind up doing more typing on debug output to suppress the block handling and stricter treatment of not spewing out any old value but having more error conditions.
You could tell everyone "just say mold if that's what you want" but this is notationally nicer.
And before, if the eval bottomed out on WORD! or PATH! combine just raised an error.
 
I think it's rather confusing and contrarian to other, regular lit-word! usage.
For debug output, there's always PROBE, so I don't think that's a particularly important concern.
 
Well if the point of Rebol is dialecting, isn't it supposed to be about using the parts for things?
 
Well. That lit-word! hack needs more consideration.
Heh, I saw that coming.
Yes, sure, that's the point. Doesn't mean one can't design bad dialects.
 
Well it's not a lit-word hack, per se, it's a response to how to handle a WORD! or PATH! if the evaluation comes to that.
It's not scanning for lit-words or lit-paths
If you started with a word or path, it evaluates that, and if that results in a lit-word, it errors.
 
Sure
 
1:16 AM
I'm not married to the idea because, in a sense, it is kind of giving meaning to the very kinds of wonky "probably-an-error" situations I was trying to guard against in the first place.
And now there are two "looks weird" votes against it, I guess.
bprint: [{blk:} mold blk] would be more robust; less likely to be an accident.
Greetings @PeriDidaskalou...the powers-that-be don't let one chat without some points. 20 is easy to get; if you're interested in Red and/or Rebol then ask a question on the main site and we'll tend to it and stuff the ballot box so you get to 20. :-) In the meantime, some reading: blog.hostilefork.com/why-rebol-red-parse-cool
 
posted on August 22, 2014 by mothdragon

I'm very confused... After all I've learned about R3, it is clear that dealing with variables should be very simple. Certainly no more complicated than in other languages. Yet I'm finding that even a simple incrementation such as: cnt: cnt + 1 does not work, at least not within a view anyway. I have to assume that there's some secret that I've not come across yet... So I set up a file specifi

 
Someone needs to tell Nick his rebolforum is... not working.
 
2:02 AM
So in my "hard drive zero" initiative I'm tossing source files for things that are done. Because video edits, for instance, of HD video are very large. It is true that if you just push it out as an MP4 then you can't go back and adjust it ever... but that is o.k.
So I am going to take my edits of the Rebol conference videos, make MP4s, and offer them to anyone who wishes to keep a copy of the higher-def-than-YouTube-crunched-it edits (but still compressed, full size 1280x720 HD). If anyone wishes to mirror copies or upload them to vimeo or whatever then fine. But I'm scrapping the source data.
There are only two talks which I wound up getting enough correct input to put together an edit for that I did not do. Those two were day 1 talks, and they were mine and Max's.
I didn't edit mine because I am depressingly old and fat and bald and dorky. Well, I exaggerate slightly, perhaps--but no one likes editing video of themselves or listening to themselves on answering machines. The last thing I want to do is sit down and edit a video of myself that's an hour long and agonize over it. The Rebmu talk was funnier and it was way way shorter.
And really, I feel what I had to say was captured well enough in the slide deck
Also, because I was griping about (still relevant) internal issues, it's not great PR
In Max's case, he does video editing and has copies of all the material, and also was the one wanting to take charge of the A/V. I feel it's in his hands to edit his talk if he finds it important.
I can almost edit Gregg's talk but I feel that, he himself, would probably say "hey, don't stress over it, it's not worth the time". And if digital forensics from the future want proof that he was there, he is in the other videos introducing people... :-)
Everything else there was some technical problem with the data, and day 2 was almost not recorded at all
 
 
3 hours later…
5:16 AM
And for meeting for geeks, run by geeks, what hope do others of doing this well?
 
@HappySpoon If your question is "how can people whose interest is programming (and not media) capture their conferences well?", the answer is, they usually do not. It pays to take advice from people who've gone to film school. (Hint.)
 
5:31 AM
All that trello planning that was done too!
 
 
1 hour later…
6:31 AM
@HappySpoon Well I gave my warnings and such, anyway, I am tossing the edits and doing hi-res exports of the videos... wondering if I can get some mirrors
Needy cat stomping on me.
 
I was interested in seeing Chris' and Maxim's talks .. oh well.
 
I can give you the raw data but I won't edit
And, I edited Chris's talk
 
Ok.
 
Max is a nice guy and well meaning, but I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel like he didn't take my spoken-from-experience advice into account... I feel like there's a bit of a Cassandra Complex in the whole replay of me saying "this is what will happen" and then what happened.
 
I don't think we've ever succeeded in recording the rebol conferences ...
 
6:39 AM
So not editing his talk, I am not wanting to make that a personal thing, like "I'm not going to edit your talk because you didn't listen to me"
I think rather it's a fair thing as I didn't edit my own talk either.
(Except incognito on day 2 as Dr. Rebmu)
@HappySpoon Before I delete my archives, if you wish, I can share what unedited data I got..if you would find it interesting. But my warning would be that, it's not all that useful; I edited together that which had been properly recorded and had priority.
 
That's okay, no need.
I'm pretty busy at present so not much time again for Rebol programming
 
No problem. But, I think the videos as edited represent a good picture of what was going on, and I leave it to Max for the coginov side...
If Gregg were not cameo'd in the videos already I would work to get him in, but he's already in. :-)
 
 
9 hours later…
3:35 PM
Slight tweak to my AS function: should now recognise any RFC822 dates, including some invalid variants (such as ones dumped out by Rebol 2's TO-IDATE):
>> do reb4.me/r/as
probe do probe [as date! "Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:00:00 EDT"]
probe do probe [as date! "2014-08-22T12:00:00-4:00"]
probe do probe [as logic! 0]
probe do probe [as logic! 1]
probe do probe [as logic! false]
probe do probe [as/where url! rebol.info/foo ["http" opt "s" "://rebol.info" to end]]
probe do probe [as/where url! rebol.info/foo ["http" opt "s" "://rebol.info" to end]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
[as date! "Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:00:00 EDT"]
22-Aug-2014/12:00-4:00
[as date! "2014-08-22T12:00:00-4:00"]
22-Aug-2014/12:00-4:00
[as logic! 0]
false
[as logic! 1]
true
[as logic! false]
false
[as/where url! rebol.info/foo ["http" opt "s" "://rebol.info" to end]]
rebol.info/foo
[as/where url! rebol.info/foo ["http" opt "s" "://rebol.info" to end]]
rebol.info/foo
== rebol.info/foo
 
(believe that second date is an invalid RFC3339 date :)
 
@rgchris Hm. It's almost like you want AS to be a refinement to PARSE. PARSE/AS
"If this pattern matches, I'd like the input to be converted to the target datatype I mention."
 
@HostileFork AS is a data validation function, it uses PARSE on some types and can use a custom parse rule. In operation, it's just a softer version of TO.
But with a wider scope. A bit more street smart.
Perhaps what TO should be if MAKE were the more elemental creator.
 
Well, just suggesting we might ask more generally how **parse rebol.info/foo ["http" opt "s" "://rebol.info" to end]** could return rebol.info/foo instead of "TRUE" on success.  For that matter, why doesn't parse return the input instead of TRUE/FALSE?  On success return the input, on failure return none.
You could still use it in conditionals.
Make parse not accept booleans or none and you're good.
>> parse false ["does this even work?"]
 
3:48 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: parse does not allow logic! for its input argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
It doesn't solve all your AS use cases, but I just noticed that it seemed AS was doing something it didn't need to.
red> parse rebol.info/foo ["http" opt "s" "://rebol.info" to end]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

*** Runtime Error 1: access violation
*** at: 080B2BADh
 
Hum.
red> type? rebol.info/foo
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== url!
 
red> parse "a" ["a"]
 
3:53 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
red> parse false [false]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
Hm, well I think it has more value to return the input on success than to allow boolean and none as input. Anyone agree?
red> parse false ['false]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
I'm not sure how to make that return true, in any event.
 
4:00 PM
@HostileFork Aye, I would.
 
Cool, putting it in as a Red wish.
 
red> parse reduce [false] [logic!]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Ah.
Well I still question the value of that.
 
Indeed.
 
4:02 PM
We are at the threshold now, where it seems that issues should be raised on Red, but it's hard because @DocKimbel doesn't want any half-assed ideas wasting his time...and also is wanting to keep the issue tracker "within the scope of relevance"...this is the kind of thing that is narrow enough to decide and isn't a big implementation decision.
 
Although there's also Doc's PARSE with COLLECT keyword—I'd rather get the output from COLLECT than the input.
 
Collect puts everything in blocks, doesn't it?
 
red> digit: charset "0123456789" parse "2014-08-22" [collect [keep 4 digit "-" keep 2 digit "-" keep 2 digit]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== ["2014" "08" "22"]
 
red> digit: charset "0123456789" parse "2014-08-22" [4 digit "-" 2 digit "-" 2 digit]
 
4:17 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
@rgchris Issue 903 if you or anyone else wants to add a comment.
 
Parsing gives true/false output? :o
 
@skiwi Parse is really a pattern matcher, but with the ability to embed code in cases of matching that can have side effects...
>> parse "aaabbbab" [some ["a" (print "found an a") | "b" (print "found a b")]]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
found an a
found an a
found an a
found a b
found a b
found a b
found an a
found a b
== true
 
red> print sum from 0 to 10
 
4:26 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Error: word has no value!
unset
*** Error: word has no value!
*** Interpreter Error: missing argument...
 
:(
 
@skiwi The general design of Rebol/Red is such that if you want to do a dialect like that, you have to put in in a block. Like Haskell, Rebol functions have a fixed arity...
@RebolBot
sum: function [b [block!]] [
    either parse b [
        ['from [set start integer!] 'to [set finish integer!]]
    ] [
        1 + (finish - start) / 2
    ] [
        do make error! "invalid sum expression"
    ]
]

sum [from 0 to 10]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 5.5
 
@skiwi Er, no that's not the formula...but you get the gist. I left out a multiplication there. :-)
The dialect I've thought about for iteration and such would actually be similar, in that it would be [0 to 10] to mean 0 up to (but not including) 10, and [0 thru 10] to include 10... so for x [1 thru 3] [print x] would print 1 2 3.
But it really is about the interpreter being able to look at the symbols you are using, and the literal quote pattern in the parse above will only match patterns of the form from (some integer) to (some integer)... and returns true on a match and a false if no match, but the SET instructions capture data into finish and start to be used by the expression
@skiwi And it demonstrates just how bendable the language is, to do your expressive bidding...
 
4:46 PM
@HostileFork So it cannot read fluent language yet? I thought it was one of your ultimate goals though?
Rebol is a LISP-like dialect though? So no classicial OOP programming? or am I mistaken there
 
@skiwi The core goal is really about complexity elimination; shaving off bytes, making everything count, while remaining highly literate. Sort of a "think smarter, not bigger" mindset. You were asking about the RSS feed aggregator IIRC, and it just has a kind of beauty to it: reb4.me/r3/so-answers
I've said "what good is open source if it's so many gigabytes you can't read it and pulls in dependencies"... central to the mission here is kind of like making really clean graphic design, making every stroke count
But it's not an AI or natural language project, it's just about building parts in a very salient way.
It happens that it comes off as rather readable when done right.
Despite the very small size and cross platform packaging.
@rgchris Speaking of aesthetics, why use [feed answers][ and not use [feed answers] [? I like having a space there.
][ looks like Roman numeral II too much. :-/ The left bracket seems to reach back and pair with the closing right bracket...as if that relationship is more important than the relationship between the open bracket to the further left.
Also, I think capitalizing keys in the headers is a practice to let go of. I do think starting with Rebol is appropriate vs rebol.
 
@HostileFork I'll be sure to check up on that after dinner
 
 
1 hour later…
6:01 PM
posted on August 22, 2014 by abolka

[Bug] See example code. Originally reported by @Respectech as https://github.com/zsx/r3/issues/8

posted on August 22, 2014 by abolka

[Wish] "I suspect it would be more valuable [..] if on success, PARSE would by default return its input instead of TRUE/FALSE on success...and NONE on failure." Originally reported by @HostileFork at https://github.com/red/red/issues/903

 
6:28 PM
posted on August 22, 2014 by szeng

[Comment] This should be fixed by https://github.com/zsx/r3/commit/790829aa4f7613e281b4160abfe2f520aadd1b27 But when I tried to test the fix, I found another issue (when r3 is compiled with GCC -O2): >> to-integer #8000000000000000 == -'..--).0-*(+,))+(0( it worked fine when compiled with gcc -O0/-O1, or clang -O2

 
 
2 hours later…
8:31 PM
posted on August 22, 2014 by szeng

[Comment] OK. the "to-integer #8000000000000000" problem should be fixed by: https://github.com/zsx/r3/commit/41bd1c619fcbdd2d36f6cf76a6f499d63979986d

 
 
3 hours later…
11:53 PM
On a disk from 15 years ago, lists. List: "Music I heard whilst out and need to find: Gooding 3x, For Love". All other songs checked. By grace of YouTube this latent item is found.
Also found a song by a friend of mine that he'd given me on a CD, which he no longer had. Sent it to him. "wow, that’s awesome - I don’t have that track anywhere. thanks for sharing that btw, totally made my day already" metaeducation.com/media/music/requiem.mp3
 

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