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12:40 AM
@HostileFork i didn't thank you. I'm probably not going to be in hk anymore. In mainland now.
 
@kealist Ah, travel.
So in the great pool of thought, challenges are now coming out that suggest context replace object-as-we-know-it, and the type be called context!
Then object be retaken for some kind of abstraction that tried to implement more traditional object-ness. Constructors, destructors, methods, what-have-you
I'd like that to be mixed up with the idea of it being a two-parameter entity by default, and have a spec block. So context [... spec ...] [... body ...]
The spec block would control properties of the context, like what module! does. If you leave it empty you'd get what we have today
Then has [... body ...] would be the analogue to does [... body ...], an abbreviated form which assumes an empty spec.
x: has [y: 10 z: 20]
f: does [1 + 2]
Under this model, object could be dialected in a way that assumed a single block parameter, using keywords like method and other higher-order levels of control
 
 
2 hours later…
2:46 AM
@JacobGood1 What's up?
 
3:07 AM
@Morwenn another random piece of esoteria that I didn't know about, forward_as_tuple. :-/
 
3:19 AM
If we're going to talk about introducing more traditional objects, I'd like to hear more discussion about what Rebol is lacking and not lacking by not having them.
What do people want and not want from traditional objects?
 
@HostileFork just waiting for some kewl news
 
For example, do we want information hiding through encapsulation?
What do objects have that we already have elsewhere?
What might they have that could be added in a different way somewhere else?
What do objects have that we don't want?
 
@JacobGood1 Kewl news forthcoming, several announcements, not sure how many
@WiseGenius Well, the first thing that comes to mind for me are constructors and destructors.
There is a whole big unknown of the behavior of user-defined-types, and trying to make it possible to hook new types in to respond to the likes of +... some kind of operator overloading
Of course it's not wise to try and take on C++ or Haskell or any other system on its turf
But that's not to say that there might not be some low hanging fruit
@JacobGood1 C++ binding, under development: github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/examples/…
 
@HostileFork Did you ever get around to watching this video?
Jul 18 at 11:07, by earl
@HostileFork If you haven't seen it, you might be interested in Guy Steele's take as well:
I'm very interested in what you thought of it.
 
@JacobGood1 Right now, still wrestling with template metaprogramming to get a nice implementation of this for extension... the reverse... calling from Reb/Red into C++ github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/examples/…
 
3:27 AM
@HostileFork I have yet to learn c++ but I am about to do so... so that is quite neat
 
"Fifty is one more than seven squared..."
"I do all my calculations in base pi."
I think I skimmed it, but didn't know that I got anything all that new out of it
 
i thought that talk was a little boring
admittedly, I did not make it through it
 
"Users will not wait for the right thing"... true
 
@HostileFork are programmers users?
 
Users of programming languages.
 
3:31 AM
if so then...
 
To a kernel programmer, app programmers are "in userspace"
 
the wait for Red is waiting for the right thing
2
 
Well, there are some dark corners. Some questions. But I think what we know is that unchecked growth of out of control systems is not the right answer. So it is really trying to bring to light the ideas of Rebol that were good, but somehow (not too surprising given poor marketing) never took hold.
It is sad that Douglas Crockford came knocking and said "let's do this, this is a good language, let's open it up and..." and got cold reception from Carl
So he said "Well I'd rather have an effect on the world than stay in a culture that is self defeating" and went on to JSON and JSLint and giving talks and writing books about...JavaScript
That's a lot of energy that could have been put into Rebol, and it seems there has been a history of refusing because "it's not ready" or fear of corruption or whatever other excuse.
Hopefully, Red will not make the same mistakes, and hopefully also, Rebol will turn around and adapt. We're not really waiting on it, but I do keep writing Carl and ask him to delegate the stewardship of the github
 
do you think that it would have taken off with crockford evangelism?
 
Given the map of things and how it worked out, HTML was the turf. XML was on the rise but is now almost dead, AFAICT
So, given HTML being a sort of immovable object... for Rebol to have enjoyed the widespread success of JavaScript, it would have had to be in the browser.
Yet web browsers, large OS-sized artifacts, are kind of the enemy of Rebol philosophy
 
3:38 AM
I am not sure it would have, lisp did not take off and it had far more of a spotlight than rebol
 
Yup, but Rebol does correct some of the inaccessibility aspects of Lisp
I do think that there have been some moments where it might have gotten its hooks in. I don't know if that place was to be in the web browser.
 
@HostileFork In what ways?
 
nowadays though, languages need a lot of things to get users
mostly tools that assist the language
 
@WiseGenius 17.7 MB for chrome, compressed: productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/chrome/IxovHM2dIFM
And that's probably a dated figure
If you compress Rebol with EXE compression it's like 250k
 
does that matter that much anymore?
 
3:41 AM
We don't compress it because really that just adds overhead, slows the performance
It's philosophical
Who's going to go over that 17.7 MB uncompressed to 30MB or whatever and audit every line?
Beware the black box
 
dont u think the size of rebol programs will expand quite a bit when they get more features?
 
The project is the study of ensuring they don't explode.
If they do, thesis crushed
PARSE is a very nice success story, and DocKimbel is very obsessed with it, and figuring out how to make it as efficient as possible because Red's parse can be faster than Rebol's
Although, parse in Rebol is often a faster way of solving some problems you might try writing imperatively
 
parse is great
 
In any case, if you look at RegEx and look at PARSE, we will lose if there's something implicitly true about that ugly expression that makes it better or faster.
I believe there is nothing implicitly true about ugliness being the price one must pay
 
i would like a dialect of lisp that would steal ideas like parse
and data types
 
3:46 AM
Maybe in an alternate Rebol-based universe people would have written smaller browsers?
Do you think with that popularity so early, Rebol would have grown with less thought?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum was trying to do a parse in JavaScript at one point. I dunno. We have emscripten now
@WiseGenius Well, I don't know if I think so, but I can tell you Carl thought so
 
i love sexpressions
i would love to see an ide written in red, i could imagine how easily hackable it would be with something like parse
 
@JacobGood1 You might want to hyphenate that. Or not.
 
lol, no it is that good
 
@HostileFork Do you think if you start with a good foundation of ideas, people will be inspired to follow the philosophy when building on them.
 
3:49 AM
@WiseGenius Sometimes it does feel like those stories of anthropologists who find a weird isolated village that hasn't had contact...and then you find they're like, cancer resistant or something.
 
@WiseGenius take a look at clojure, or Haskell, or even Java, philosophy of the language permeates the culture
it is why I am not too fond of clojure or Haskell, they are too idealistic for me
 
I was trying to decide if I liked Haskell's logo or not
 
no its lame, prob took two seconds to come up with
 
I don't like it as much as I like our logos
It's not entirely meaningless within its context
 
I don't yet know any Clojure or Haskell. Did the community have much to do with the language's development?
 
3:53 AM
Haskell, for sure
You should try a bit of it if you haven't before
 
clojure initially no, clojure today yes
ive programmed a good bit in clojure and haskell, i prefer clojure out of the highly opinionated language show off
 
I've always thought that there was a big need to pull mathematical formalism and "pure functional" techniques into programming, because some problems demand it. Without that you're always worrying about how tweaking one part of the system might affect another... it's just too hard to keep a formal system running properly.
Your intern working on some tendril of one module can break everything
 
I am tempted to make a "pure" lisp atop red one day
 
But really, it does come down to wanting to "Say What You Mean"... and Haskell, sure, you can get into the mindset where "to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail"
And C++ people get that way too, and any other language
And you say "well of course we do it that way, because it is Right"
 
yea that is why multiparadigm is great
local mutation is still pure, I would like to see a mostly pure language allow impurity that does not escape scope
 
3:57 AM
Right tool for the job. And my argument is largely that, as English (or similar) speaking primate things with ASCII input devices, there's a certain way we like to talk
And it's a question of how much you take that natural way you frame problems, and those natural tools, vs. how much you say "I am robot from future I will solve all with equations"
 
@HostileFork I've never tried the language, but from the lots I've heard about it's paradigm, and just the sound of it's name, when I first saw the logo, I thought "That's a perfect match!" for some reason.
 
Haven't gotten a grid out for it, but it's too wide for its height, and it reminds me of other things like the Adidas logo which I can complain about for other reasons.
 
@HostileFork im surprised you have not given clojure more time...oh wait you hate sexpressions right?
 
Right now I'm wrestling with stupid variadic template metaprogramming in C++. Hate is a strong word.
 
@HostileFork about your c++ binding, what kind of overhead will calling c++ from red entail?
 
4:01 AM
Red has 128 bit cells for values
My wrapped value class adds bits
But, the trick I use is to pass arrays of them... and tell Red the size of the wrapped type
So a cell may be 16 bytes, but I always pass a "wrapped size" which is maybe...let's say 20 bytes
So an array of them can just be processed by skipping 20 bytes each time
That's performance trick 1
It means, I need a variant of "DO" which doesn't require the data it's doing to be in a Red series form
It just increments the pointer according to the size I said
So not very costly actually
The other side, calling C++ from Red, has a similar dynamic
It's another level of stack pushes as written
But I think that can come down
But generally, cheap
Binding size is about 60K
There's no way to do what I'm doing with C++98, this is a C++11 codebase.
 
its def awesome
if we can use the vast amount of c++ resources that will make the library problem go away
time to make an unreal game using red...lol
@HostileFork so, could I make an SDL(libsdl.org) game soon, using Red?
I am ignorant of c++, but that will be fixed soon enough
 
@JacobGood1 Well, I did have a bit of a time even with my little dungeon game, things are still very much in the "needs more hands on deck". But it moves along, and yes; the theory here is that binding will become vastly easier.
 
your binding may be just what i needed to start some Red hacking
 
Rebol has a bad time of giving you meaningful errors and debugging as it is, and Red keeps mapping out "let's prove what we can do" vs. anything user friendly.
But, you watch it eerily coming in with nice parts that are more complete emerging in various spots. The console, for instance. Nice and apparently about to get things like autocomplete
 
4:17 AM
well i got emacs working with slime(if that means anything to you) I am sure that there is nothing more ridiculous in all of programming
 
Well, by caring about Lisp at all you are in a minority of the next generation of programmers, many of whom don't care much about it.
Because, you know, Ajax.
Profit! King Zuckerburg, take all our data! Ad nauseum.
I guess people are permitted to choose their icons.
 
at first i did not like the paranthesis, but you can do some super cool crap with them
i wonder of the same could be done with red, possibly not due to its more free form syntax
 
@JacobGood1 Dunno if you read NewPath
 
@HostileFork check out how you can manipulate your code(you are in the ast after all) because it has parens everywhere... youtube.com/watch?v=D6h5dFyyUX0
 
@JacobGood1 Heh, well you know my answer to that sort of thing.
 
4:25 AM
@HostileFork so blurry... hehe but neat still
 
Well, that's what happens when you talk to old people. Lo def.
 
Also about the path post, some lisps have more than one block type it just depends on the lisp
 
Interesting, never saw that
 
@HostileFork there are a crap load of lisps lol
many dialects with diverse ideas
 
Are there any Lisps that use FIRST instead of CAR?
 
4:31 AM
the only one thing that holds them together is LIST processing where all code must be in a list
yes plenty of lisps do
clojure being the easiest to reference, but ive seen 1st, head, etc
 
Well, that's a prerequisite for me considering it being worth mapping. If you can't correct something that obviously deranged, you aren't thinking.
 
hehe, the fun things about lisp is I could change car to first without any cost(except some other lisp hacker getting mad at me)
 
Rebol culture kind of emerged out of Amiga culture
And Amiga didn't have a big foothold in the US
So a lot of Rebol users are not native English speakers
 
so rebol has its own car and cdr
 
NEXT is CDR
 
4:34 AM
hmm
i like rest
first rest
 
REST doesn't have a backwards equivalent
BACK and NEXT are complements
So if your position is somewhere in the midst of the series, you have POS
and you can say FIRST POS
or you can say FIRST BACK POS
or FIRST NEXT POS
 
my first red program will be a first pos
next sounds too much like the next item to me
not the rest of the data
 
There's also SKIP
SKIP pos 1 is NEXT pos
 
same as drop?
 
You tell me; I have only briefly dabbled with Lisp in high school, about 15 years ago
 
4:38 AM
drop seems to be the typical word now, in haskell, dart, clojure etc
 
Now and again I'll look something up for comparison
I like SKIP and NEXT better than DROP and REST
 
drop n means skip over n ele and take the rest
 
To me, SKIP and NEXT have this very turing machine tape feed language
 
i like skip
what about filter map and reduce
 
SECOND makes more sense than NEXT
 
4:39 AM
foldr
 
Not really the problem space, though there is a map-each
If someone with functional programming leanings comes in to attack it and the terminology, they will be bringing a different set of concerns and offerings. It hasn't really happened much yet.
 
well, back to the c++ binding,without even having looked at it, does one need to write c++ glue code or could one just consume a lib that was written in c++ with red code
 
If you want to call C++ from Red/Rebol your code will look like this: github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/examples/…
That's the goal that I am within a hairs breadth of getting
So inside that lambda function [](Block blk, String str) -> Logic
Block is a type derived from AnyBlock, derived from Series, derived from Value
 
@HostileFork At a first glance, the complement word to NEXT for me, is PREVIOUS, both implying 1. The complement of BACK to me is FORWARD which seems closer to REST and CDR than to NEXT.
 
String is a type derived from Series derived from Value
Logic is derived from Value
@WiseGenius Yes, but I think ergonomics of typing influenced that, PREVIOUS being seen as too long, and as there's no FORWARD the shorter word was taken
And PREV being abbreviated, in a system that wants whole words written out
 
4:45 AM
Pity English has no word that really complements REST.
 
@HostileFork hehe reverse rest
 
I don't know that I like rest so much as a word for NEXT
Also, contextually, REST is now Representational State Transfer or whatever
I think that when you say "the rest of something" you have to have said what the stuff you're taking out is
As a word, "I'll take the first and second items, and give you the rest" is legitimate
 
Unfortunately in English REST has other meanings (eg. take a rest) so it seems too weak a word to immediately invoke the meaning we have in mind anyway. :(
 
So, there is a need for an anchor point of what is it your taking away to give the rest away. I don't know that first is a great assumption.
NEXT has none of these problems.
The only question is, "does next seem like it returns a value vs a position" but in a system that has SECOND and PICK pos 2 I do not see the confusion
SECOND is a better version of this "what next might mean"
BACK is a bit awkward, but I could see, if I were describing an assembly language feeling comfortable with the pairing of NEXT/BACK
LAST of course meaning the last item. x: [1 2 3 4] y: skip x 2 last y should be 4, and not [2 3 4].
 
gnight all, time for sleep
 
4:55 AM
Nite...
 
What we need is a new spoken language that's better suited for coding, developed alongside (or as a dialect of) Rebol. :P
...now how would you say CDR in Lojban...?
 
velvi'u
Oddly enough, I am tired fairly early, so I must disappear for a bit. But back to binding soon.
 
 
4 hours later…
9:34 AM
And... I have a proof of concept now done. Type correct and everything. That took some learnin'
There is probably a special place in hell where people are forced to do Functional Programming on large scale systems... but required to do it all in C++ templates. I'm not sure what kind of crimes you have to have committed in earthly life to be sent there.
 
10:00 AM
Thanks to the patch, I managed to get rencpp to compile too without a problem.
 
@Morwenn Ah, I was just thinking I'd appreciate a couple of educated eyeballs on this... I am having trouble with passing the tuple values by reference...
 
@HostileFork If I remember well, std::forward_as_tuple creates a std::typle<T&&...>.
 
It actually boiled down to not be super big but I bet it can be reduced further, and I'd like it if I could pass by reference if possible
The cells are only 128 bits, but still, why copy?
 
In which function?
 
Note that it doesn't actually work yet, I was just trying to get it to compile
Working should be a trivial exercise after that :-)
What I'd like would be if I could change these parameters to be references: github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/examples/…
And really, any other improvements because I'm already a bit grumpy about the extra function layer of indirection, and the table lookup, but I see no way around it.
You can't pass the body of functions as a parameter in C++, unless you use macros
 
10:10 AM
Hum, I'll see what I can do about it.
 
Error is weird, /home/hostilefork/Projects/rencpp/include/rencpp/extension.hpp:104: error: expression list treated as compound expression in functional cast [-fpermissive]
std::forward_as_tuple(A (engine, cells[0])),
^
 
Yeah, that's my first type seeing that.
I think that this is a case of most vexing parse.
Change A ( ... ) to A { ... }.
 
Hm, well that gives a more coherent error
/home/hostilefork/Projects/rencpp/include/rencpp/extension.hpp:104: error: invalid cast of an rvalue expression of type 'ren::Block' to type 'ren::Block&'
std::forward_as_tuple(A {engine, cells[0]}),
^
What I was kind of hoping abstractly
Was that some combo of forwarding and thinking would mean there was a single construction, no copy construction, of those Value wrapping objects
Now, they have to have construction somewhere, so maybe that forward at the creation level isn't needed. But it's hard for me to (without adding some debug code) tell how many copies or whatever are being made
 
I think it may have tried to consider A (...) as a function declaration.
 
Do I have to pass them as rvalue refs? :-/ Hm
No, then it says "/home/hostilefork/Projects/rencpp/include/rencpp/extension.hpp:86: error: cannot bind 'ren::Block' lvalue to 'ren::Block&&'
return fun(std::get<S>(params) ...);
^"
 
10:20 AM
I am trying to figure out what's happening, but we've got a severe case of type system nightmare on our hands.
 
Well, it does seem to work with the values, it looks very close
I just want to avoid that copy
 
Which is probably feasable.
 
Incidentally, do you think my Dont::Initialize thing is stupid?
I make Value's default constructor make an unset
Which is a "fully constructed" type, and in this "we want to be efficient mindset" that means I suppress initialization with that enum
 
Well, I don't know yet.
 
Well, I'd never seen anyone do such a thing
And whenever you've not seen anyone do something, and you do it, you might feel clever but you should also put on your maybe there's a reason no one does this hat
 
10:26 AM
It's true any code has probably been written better that you did it. That's a general rule.
 
@Morwenn Do you understand why the static table in the header works for the templates? Where does it... live?
There's one per template signature, right?
 
That's right.
 
But why no errors on duplication?
 
Er, probably because there are special rules regarding ODR and templates.
 
Might you wind up with two tables for the same signature?
 
10:31 AM
No, I don't think so. If I recall correctly, templates, just like inline functions, are require to work even with these quirks.
 
I'm hoping what I've done is not insanely broken somehow, but honestly, I was surprised it seemed to work.
I've looked at semi-related questions in the past, and things like the memory model and when statics are initialized... you have a guarantee in C++11 that C++98 didn't have on that
And again I would go "why?"
"How... do they guarantee that?"
Had a facepalm moment the other day looking into shared pointer implementations, and I couldn't figure out how the copy and assign operators couldn't guarantee the source wasn't going to have its destructor called while running...
"What if the last reference goes away while you're making the copy...?"
 
Haha, there are some pretty clever tricks everywhere in the standard library's implementation.
 
And then when I wrote it down I went "d'oh"
Your thread knows at least one copy exists, because you're copying it!
 
In your code, the problem with handling references seems to be linked to the fact that we are "storing" types and not just forwarding them from one function to another. Everytime we try to store references types, it gets messy.
 
As I mentioned, I'd be happy to rip the tuple out
The tuple is an artifact of me just following along mechanically from point A to point B etc
 
10:36 AM
When I fully understand what the Hell is going on, I may be able to provide a solution ^^"
 
:-)
 
First of all, I would probably rip applyFunc out of Extension. Currently, it seems needlessly tied to FuncType and ParamsType.
 
@Morwenn Not opposed to it. There is common.hpp github.com/hostilefork/rencpp/blob/develop/include/rencpp/…
 
@HostileFork I can properly fork rencpp and do that for you if you want.
 
@Morwenn You are welcome to repair and submit anything that makes it better, that's why I published it in a broken state :-)
 
10:45 AM
@HostileFork Ok, I'll do that then :)
 
My current philosophical quest is just trying to lower the overhead of these extensions and figure out what to tell DocKimbel about the hook he needs to give for the binding to work
He asked "hey, could you think about designing a C++ binding" and I said "ok"
And so I'm trying to be sensitive to both the concerns of C++ programmers and Rebol/Red programmers with it
One thing that Rebol/Red people panic about is instruction counts, and stack pushes, and bit copies, and branch prediction fails...
 
And cache invalidation too I guess?
 
Which I try to explain is not antithetical to C++, in fact C++ programmers care about these exact things
But there is an impression in not just the Rebol/Red community, but the C programming community, that C++ programmers are indifferent to this
Having drunk the C++ Kool Aid I say "we can match C performance but be type-safe and prettier". Unfortunately things like this do get in the middle and make you question.
 
There are many popular myths about why C++ and its community are bad.
 
Some of the SO users of high knowledge are not very nice people at heart, I've found.
Unfriendly, snooty, like kicking puppies.
We try to be nicer here.
 
10:50 AM
@HostileFork Haha, I know what you mean. You probably encountered the lounge.
 
Yeah, what a treat.
If they stayed in there and didn't go tearing into kids on the site, for apparent jollies, I'd be less mad about it.
We could just put a big biohazard sign on the chat room and be done with it.
 
Well, many of them are really experienced C++ programmers but not the nicest people in the World :/
 
Well some of the most experienced people are, they just don't have 24 hours a day for this site.
 
:20590176 Right, my bad.
 
The people who have 24 hours a day have some kind of screw loose. I've got a few screws missing but none of them are "be mean to kids trying to learn to program"
@RebolBot alive?
 
10:53 AM
@HostileFork I'm a-liiiiive!!!
 
Hey, I'm less and less inefficient with git :D
 
Yay! :-)
@johnk So who's in charge of redbot these days?
 
@HostileFork me, she got lost in the move to digitalocean
 
Well now and again it's nice to do a red eval, so if it's not too much trouble...
 
I was meaning to rewrite her in red, but I have been a slow to get around to it
 
10:56 AM
Hopefully you read the fake interview with C++ creator :-) snopes.com/computer/program/stroustrup.asp
 
@pekr Well that was a little bit obvious. Although I do think that perl being inspired by line noise on a modem is fairly believable. One day Larry Wall looked at line noise translated into characters and said like the guy with mashed potatoes in Close Encounters of the Third Kind: "This... this means something..."
@Morwenn I got uncomfortably intimate with Git creating the historical archive for this bridge solver: github.com/dds-bridge/dds/network
 
@HostileFork I can understand.
 
Fun to walk into a project that's been shipped in zip files by people who never used version control and try and create a historical record
 
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