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12:02 AM
Well, I'll be sure to save a copy of the answer, so it can be used to answer a better-worded question if this one gets closed. It was just the mods being rude, not someone in the community.
 
As a question it could be improved. I tend to comment, not downvote, in general for such situations with people who have low scores. Downvoting is more fun with people who have high scores to get their goat. :-)
Strangely, on meta.stackoverflow.com the score is not relevant, they use up and downvotes for agreement or disagreement. You downvote well-phrased and literate proposals you disagree with.
15
Q: Can [bool] be merged with (or made a synonym for?) [boolean]

HostileForkI do not think there is value in differentiating bool and boolean. I note there is a distinction between "int" (limited range, overflowing) and "integer" (abstract mathematical concept)...but none between "float" and "floating-point" (perhaps there should be "real-number"?) There are some quest...

I don't care a whole lot for the score issue, but I would definitely be less enthusiastic about the site if I couldn't fix errors. Luckily we now have "suggest an edit" though it goes into a moderation queue. You get +2 rep if your edit is approved (up to 1000). But pretty much anything is approved if it looks good, even fixing a spelling mistake.
Some people do search and replace for things like "algorhythm" and clog up the queue fixing it. I have mixed feelings about that, but if it's what they want to do with their time... ok.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:35 AM
@HostileFork now that there's an answer, how would we improve the question?
 
1:46 AM
@BrianH I'll take a look. Do I have yours and @Adrian's permission to tweak?
(Push DNA out of answer into question, etc.)
 
go ahead on my account
 
@HostileFork If you want to push stuff out of the answer, check with me first so I can make sure the answer is still accurate. But sure.
 
@BrianH Well it's wiki-style, so checking with you will just mean "hey look what I did and fix it if I screwed it up" :-)
So @earl caved, and added the chmod +x note to rebolsource.net :-)
 
@HostileFork OK, then "check with me" means "tell me when you're done with your draft" :)
 
See, we are a community of compromise after all!
 
1:57 AM
@Adrian, @HostileFork, while writing the answer I came up with the missing pieces in the behavior of reword. With a few tweaks it looks like we can declare the experiment a success and rewrite it as native for speed :)
 
@BrianH Okay, as long as I can have pad. :-)
 
@HostileFork I will be just as thorough in my criticism of pad when you propose it :)
 
@BrianH incidentally, did you follow that whole thing about me wanting function variables in PARSE to be called with DO/NEXT? I wanted three functions: alpha, digit, and whitespace. They return bitsets that are generated on-demand. So alpha/uppercase/latin for instance... or digit/hex.
Basically I think those three could go a long way to making Rebol very out-of-the-box-awesome.
But it means parse would have to call functions if it found one.
So there are some technical issues.
 
@HostileFork the biggest one being that this doesn't save you on any predefined words.
 
@BrianH It saves you from hexdigit or upperalpha or alphalatin8
These would be tremendously useful. They don't need to generate a new bitset each time...they can just make it once if you need it.
 
2:03 AM
why is it that reword/escape "Hello^/There^/nl" use [x] [x: 0 map reduce ["^/" does [++ x "^/"] "nl" does [x]]] "" results in == "Hello^/There^/2", but if you add another line, e.g "Hello^/There^/Foo^/nl" the result is a multi-line string with non literal newlines?
 
Useful with find, useful with parse, we're cutting Rebol off at the knees by not having them built in.
And it's only three words in mezzanine. I mean, jeez, there's orange. That screws up a lot of my demos incidentally when I invoke fruit symbolically and find orange does something different.
 
@HostileFork +1 for this
 
@HostileFork have you heard of delay-loaded modules? They're great. If you want to not define something until you need it, but still have the source of something included in your project so it'll be there when you need it. Then all you have to do is put something like Needs: [standard-rules] in your script header, or import 'standard-rules in your script.
 
@Adrian Well it only works if parse will call functions. I thought at first that parse couldn't deal with the idea of a rule that had something that changes...so you had to commit to a rule and stick with it for the pattern match to work, but then I see Red doing dynamic modification of the blocks used for patterns and that seems to be supported...and it's awesome, so why not functions returning stuff too?
 
@HostileFork we were intending to move a lot of these to delay-loaded modules. Perhaps the standard interpreter would preload some of these modules, but you wouldn't need to have them in your own projects.
 
2:07 AM
I'm basically using functions for namespacing where if you leave off the refinements you still get behavior. alpha would be any alphabetic character in any language by default, whitespace would be all whitespace as per Unicode, digit would just be 0-9 by default...
digit/hex would be 0-9, A-F, a-f. digit/uppercase/hex would be 0-9, A-F. Etc.
Without these, it's hard to really just compete with RegEx out of the box.
The speedbump of defining these character sets blocks the learning.
Only tech limit is calling the functions in parse, so that's what I want to talk about.
 
@Adrian ^/ means a newline. If you have enough of them in there, they'll display literally, but they're still there in the original string.
 
Looks to me like it can be done.
Greetings @JKing. What's up? Your chat icon looks cut in half. :-)
 
Was aware of that, just didn't know what causes the transition to happen here. I guess it's having more than two.
 
@BrianH What I don't know about the module system can fill wikis. And probably should. :-P
 
I was planning on looking into whether we could parse have general function support, including parameters (beyond just refinements). It seems to me that we could implement some of the existing operations as operation functions. Seemed like an interesting approach. Nonetheless, you can use objects as namespaces already in parse, so using functions for that seems like overkill.
 
2:15 AM
@BrianH Well I don't want to have to say alpha/default... I want to just say alpha and get a nice default bitset.
Those are three great global words, imagine how useful find alpha/uppercase/latin8 ch would be...
If you need specificity you use it. If you don't, find alpha ch. It's pretty.
And again, you don't have to generate the bitsets every time.
 
@HostileFork Well, alpha can be implemented as a straight bitset assigned to a word. For that matter, hex-digit is faster to process than digit/hex, especially if digit refers to a function.
 
So performance won't suck that bad.
It's uglier and it pollutes the space. I want to do help alpha and find everything I need to know.
If performance is a problem and someone thinks the functions are just too slow, then fine. hex-digit: digit/hex it is. Use it if you really are performance tuning. But beauty in source first.
But we have to solve this problem of not kicking RegEx's sorry butt, in instantaneous moment of first impression, right out of the box. I think this would seal that deal and give us quick addicts.
 
@HostileFork I'd recommend delay-loaded and private modules for this. The bitsets will only be generated once, at first import, but only imported into the namespace when requested. Or through a module reference, your choice. No function calls needed except for in the initialization code of the module.
 
And once I thought of having functions returning things in parse being called, I really started wanting it, so I think we need to prove it's a bad idea or write it.
You can do it in VID, why not PARSE?
 
@HostileFork You are underestimating the difference in approach between R2 and R3. For R3, the standard standalone interpreters are just applications created by the R3 development kit. Those standard interpreters can premake a lot of modules that for your own apps you would prefer to delay-load or not include at all. First impressions are made by those standard apps, but real work is building (encapping?) your own.
I'm not saying that making these things, or even including them in the standard interpreters, is not a really great idea. It is. But we need to write as if we're minimalists that just happen to have a lot of stuff in storage, but we pull that stuff out when we have guests over to show it off :)
That doesn't mean we want it cluttering the house on a regular day though.
 
2:30 AM
@BrianH I don't want to underestimate it, but I want to be able to use functions in parse, regardless of your opinion of doing this particular thing with refinements. I can do foo: ['a | 'b] parse [a b c] [foo (append foo [| 'c]) foo foo] so why not foo: func [] [return ['a | 'b | 'c]] parse [a b c] [foo foo foo]
I'm liking it so I really need it to be shot down as "terrible idea, here's why..." or I'm going to want it.
The alpha, digit, whitespace thing was just the moment I realized I wanted it, and didn't have it. :-)
 
@HostileFork actually, it makes more sense to have another function type for this kind of thing, one that is processed by the parse dialect instead of the do dialect. We can call the function type rule!.
 
@BrianH Whyzzat?
 
@HostileFork because your idea of delay-built charsets and such is better done using different methods, such as delay-loading stuff, but a rule! function type could implement semantics that are extremely difficult to do right now by almost any means, like recursive rules that have recursive local variables, or parameterized rules. We need those really badly, and we really don't have them.
Parsing XML or other recursive structures is really annoying. Context-sensitive grammars are really annoying too.
 
@BrianH You mean "better done" because you think function calls are too slow. :-/ I guess I need metrics to really know how much slower it is. It is, admittedly impressive to see parse perform so well...and not being naive about this kind of thing is one of the reasons it does...but I still would like to know just how much worse it is, and when workarounds exist for performance critical situations I go for source cleanliness first...
 
@HostileFork Brilliant name and avatar.
 
2:41 AM
Rebol being slow might bug DocKimbel, but it's not the reason most people reject it. They use all kinds of slow, terrible crap. They reject Rebol because they don't get it or realize why it's valuable. And I appreciate your dedication to performance but my proposal has a immediate user-friendly cleanliness, and you can STILL get the performance if you need it just by caching the bitset in a variable.
"You get what you pay for" as the saying goes. And Rebol should stay clean by default, and the tweakers should be the ones paying... not those who step in and try to learn the language.
 
@HostileFork it's fast enough that using object paths to refer to rules rather than direct-bound words has a noticeable (but small) increase in overhead, just due to the path decoding. And that doesn't include function call overhead. If you're going to add that, make it worth it.
 
@SomeKittens Thanks, it's how I roll. :-) But would be nice if you stayed to talk about Rebol a bit!
 
@HostileFork Oh fine, you've convinced me
 
@SomeKittens so I do a little bit of graphic design. As you like my little name hack... and it is an SEO hack actually (if people are talking about a "hostile fork" of a project, I get hits, and I can also post a blog on the conversation if I feel like it)... you might like my logo hack for Rebol...
 
@HostileFork not denying that having certain bitsets (and full rules!) available by default would be really nice. I just think that there are better methods for making this happen :)
 
2:45 AM
@SomeKittens Rebol is designed by...well, old-school freaks and geeks who are very...different. Lots of thinking involved. BrianH here is one of the main people.
 
@HostileFork Yep, read that. Nice little bit, but what's so special about these languages? (Sorry, I'm still new to the "cool" bit of programming, so you'll have to use small words)
 
@SomeKittens Well...it's hard to know where to start, but as you were talking about iconography, one of the benefits of my design for Rebol is that it can be rendered simply as [o] which alludes to the fact that in terms of "BEGIN" and "END" constructs, Rebol didn't choose () as LISP did... nor {} as C did, it very specifically chose [] because you type them a lot and you don't need to press shift on keyboards to get them. :-)
 
heh, I was wondering when someone would finally get wise and save my shift key the effort.
 
@SomeKittens and sticking to superficial but thought out issues like that, you can write strings as "Hello World" in quotes, as with other languages. The alternative is braces, which are asymmetric. print {"Hello there, @SomeKittens," said {HostileFork}, "It's nice to meet you!"} works.
See, an asymmetric delimiter for strings is good. As long as they pair up, no escaping.
@SomeKittens So now I've given you two, superficial, stupid things about the language that hint perhaps that there's great depth to be found in thinking.
@SomeKittens It will blow your mind. Guaranteed or your money back.
 
No need to ping me in every message, I see you.
 
2:50 AM
@SomeKittens as a naming convention we use hyphens instead of underscores or case differences between words in a variable name, so you can type the whole word without touching a shift key. It also looks more like English to say multi-user instead of multi_user or MultiUser.
 
Okay, no ping. But realize that some people don't hear you unless you do. :-)
 
Ah, but here's the rub: is it cooler than JavaScript?!?
<-- JS Junkie
@BrianH That's something I appreciate about npm
 
Yes. Pursuant to what BrianH just said, have you ever tried to do JSON for CSS and put background-color in as a key without quotes?
Again, we are only at the most superficial level of discussion talking about this. Douglas Crockford, Mr Javascript, actually tried to fork Rebol a while back.
Well, clone it anyway. It wasn't open source.
 
Actually, no. I stay server-side (node) for most things
 
I ported one of my projects to node. It's called BlackHighlighter. Educational experience...it was in Django under Python before. I met some of the guys who run Cloud Foundry and they convinced me to learn Node.
 
2:53 AM
JavaScript has one big advantage - running in web browsers - and another big advantage - not having classes - but their main cool factor is being popular. Rebol doesn't have as much popularity yet, but it can do things easily that you can't do in JavaScript without eval and a lot of praying.
 
@HostileFork I like the concept
 
Rebol is actually going through a bit of the pain that the JavaScript module system is having in it's transition from version 2 to version 3.
 
@BrianH For instance?
 
@SomeKittens Thanks, I get distracted a lot and don't know what to work on...but it has some very big applications...I don't think of it as a technology, I think of it as a mindset. Like how "wiki" was an idea, not a technology.
 
@HostileFork I know the feeling. I've got four very cool projects to work on over break, all demanding my attention yesterday.
 
2:56 AM
I got to learn MongoDB and "PAAS" and Node. Thing is, I predicted Node years ago--I said JavaScript and Python and Ruby were all basically the same, and having the three of them was worse than picking any one and standardizing on it for server and client...and I predicted server-side JavaScript would happen and would win.
So I was gloating a lot. "See, told you!" Then I got mired in Node's bleeding edge situation...and said "well I will gloat slightly less now."
 
You think it'll win? I don't think it'll become a dominant force for quite a while, at least until there are some major (thing WP level) web apps/communities
 
But Node is where Rails was back when.
The RailsTutorial guy is a friend of mine, and he watched Ruby on Rails go through that...and he bet on it...and made a nice living out of it.
 
@SomeKittens for instance, making your own special-purpose languages at runtime, extending the language itself at runtime, (this might make you cringe) self-modifying code, a self-modifying parser, the list goes on. There are some languages that compile to JavaScript that do some of this, but it's exceedingly difficult to do this in JS itself.
 
And he really sees Node as going through that phase when he saw the potential, took off work, went and lived with his parents for a year and worked the whole thing out. Now he's super popular, travels, and is living it up. I think Node hit that critical mass not too long ago. And Rebol is about to hit its stride, but it is super early. The open sourcing was only December. We've been screwed--basically--by the main architect pursuing other interests...but now, new work is afoot.
 
@BrianH I'm a fairly liberal programmer, so I'm not against self-modifying code as-is. Truth be told, I've never actually worked with it.
@HostileFork Cool. Variety is good. Is there a basic tutorial for all this?
 
3:03 AM
@SomeKittens We're scrambling just to bring it together. I've tried a few things here and there to explain what's up. Everyone has their own take. If philosophy persuades you, you might like "Is Rebol Actually a Revolution?"
 
@SomeKittens It's more useful than you can possible imagine, because someone can take anything you can imagine and then use it as data. That's kind of Rebol's thing: Code is data at runtime. For Lisp languages, or Red for that matter, source code is data, but it ceases to be data once it's compiled. It's like a really high-level assembler for a machine that you're building on the fly.
 
Yeah, that appeals to me.
Alright, I've got to run (when did it get so late?) but I'll be back.
 
@SomeKittens Please do come back, thanks for chatting...
@BrianH Well, I still want metrics. And I do want to tinker with the parse transcode thing. BTW, others have added me on Skype and/or Gchat, would you mind doing so?
 
Gchat yes, but while I have (had?) a Skype account I haven't logged into it in more than a year.
 
@BrianH Gchat will do...
 
3:09 AM
Mine is not public. Chicken or egg. AltME?
 
@BrianH Mine is... and it's... hostilefork. :-)
 
 
4 hours later…
6:53 AM
Is there any reason get-env "RANDOM" wouldn't work, while call/wait/output "echo $RANDOM" random: "" does?
 
7:18 AM
@rgchris what does list-env do?
 
Lists available Env Variables.
 
including Random?
 
And no, RANDOM is not there. But why is it available to ECHO?
Or, why isn't it available to Rebol?
 
i'm not familiar with the echo command
 
Just a shell command, like 'print I suppose, without quotes. $VAR resolves to an env variable.
 
7:24 AM
must google it .. doesn't do anything for me
 
I have.
 
echo %var%
 
Windows, I presume?
 
oh ? Mac?
Yes, I'm on windows 7 prof
 
Mac and Linux.
'call works on both systems, 'get-env does not.
 
7:30 AM
get-env works on windows
 
It works, but not RANDOM.
 
likely says somewhere that you can't use function names understood by bash as environmental variables
 
If it's not a real environment variable, list-env won't list it.
 
Is it something specific to 'echo (and similar)?
 
8:20 AM
No, it's a shell variable that just looks like an environment variable. It's the shell, not echo.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:31 AM
Hmmm. I got a mail from the people I bought my car from saying happy 2 year anniversary of owning your Honda Element. They wonder if I want to trade it in. Uh...it just ticked over to 6,000 miles today. I think it's fine.
 
@HostileFork let's hope it's not a trend towards cars only lasting 2 years :-)
 
@Henrik Remote kill-switches sent to the processor from Honda HQ... or, you can't drive on Toyota Roads... or...
You've been quiet @Henrik, how's it going for you in Rebol land?
That's my car, incidentally. Love it. :-) Aside from the fact that humans shouldn't drive cars. But it's very reconfigurable, like a transformer, and there's no carpet...rubber floor.
 
@HostileFork nice :-)
@HostileFork I'm busy with the Saphirion NLPP program. All REBOL, don't worry.
 
@Henrik Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Saphirion NLPP program?
Also, note you can edit your posts for 2 minutes (vs. deleting). If it's your last post, just up arrow will do it. For an earlier one, hover and use the triangle menu on the left.
 
@HostileFork Non-Linear Performance Pricing. A program to study price/performance for products being sold or bought to help you determine if you are getting your money's worth. I've been working on it for 3 years along with Robert Munch, Cyphre and Ladislav.
 
11:46 AM
Incidentally: I really appreciate people coming here and learning the StackOverflow world. It's not about the chat being the end all be all, it's about being ready for when Rebol/Red catch on and having a presence on the Q&A site. But I think the chat is nice. There's even a mobile version.
 
A video of the installation. It doesn't show much, but it's the only video we have right now: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6EJ0rAldm5A
 
@Henrik You are in Denmark, so you are working remotely?
 
@HostileFork Yes
 
@Henrik Are you able to run this in Rebol 3 on windows?
 
@HostileFork If you're referring to NLPP, it's a REBOL 2 app made in RebGUI.
 
11:49 AM
@Henrik Yes but I was under the impression that Saphirion had a Rebol 3 story for GUI that hasn't made it to the main branch, just wondering if that tied into this app.
I don't know if you've followed my story, but I'm about to uproot and move. I am considering opportunities. I wish I could leave the US.
I think careers in Rebol/Red may be a real possibility if we play our cards right here.
 
@HostileFork No, this app started as a branch of another app made back in 2005 and by 2009, it was separated out into its own app. At that time REBOL 3 did not yet have a proper GUI that Saphirion could work with. That didn't come about until later. As the program developed, we decided that a REBOL 3 version would be too time consuming.
@HostileFork I would think there would be opportunities for REBOL/Red stuff in the US?
 
@Henrik Not that I know of. But I also want to leave for cultural reasons.
 
@HostileFork I see.
 
@Henrik I'm trying to finalize the Red port to R3. I'm now facing mostly issues porting the test suite. I think Red itself works, but the testing framework is now the problem mostly... :-/
Though it has caught some bugs that I'd introduced.
 
@HostileFork Have you asked Ladislav for help? He has been working on a dedicated R3 test suite for some time.
About the R3 GUI: I'm working on some examples that will serve as better documentation. I'm not sure when they will be published yet.
 
12:02 PM
@Henrik Carl has not been merging, I am not sure what is going to be done. Did you watch the Red talk? I video edited it to be watchable, and a nice Indian kid subtitled it:
 
@HostileFork I watched the original. Nice to see it updated. :-)
 
Doc has a somewhat dim view of the idea that Saphirion and others will come together under a unified vision. I would like to believe we can...but what do you think?
 
@HostileFork My impression is that Saphirion (essentially Robert) believes R3 is the way forward and Red is too far behind to become relevant right now. The reason is 3 years of real money sunk into developing for it. Robert is very determined to bring it forward, even if it meant re-implementing it to take 100% control over it. We as developers are a bit more relaxed about this and I'm leaning a bit both ways.
 
@Henrik I think Red is the future...if there was a real RebolCorp then it is that corporation's Rebol 4 initiative. But I think an ANSI-C compatible subset implementation has great value, and design and collaboration is very important.
 
Personally, I would prefer Red in the long run, because of the underlying tool-chain, but it needs a lot more work before we can use it. In the meantime, we have to make and sell apps and R2 and R3 work for that right now.
What I don't want, is a bunch of slightly compatible clones, so aspiring users won't know what to choose. This was the original strength of REBOL: There was only one implementation. But this will be hard to do now.
 
12:14 PM
@Henrik Well I think we need to push for it.
@pekr - I hope you know I agree with you on the rep thing. It's stupid.
@pekr But they won't budge, it's their "CAPTCHA". I think they're being foolish.
@pekr But I assure you that using the StackOverflow Q&A and going through the motions of the basic understanding of its workings is educational, it's different from other things... it is neat. Worth trying out. They just coerce you into it.
@Henrik Besides Saphirion is there any other clone in the works? I don't really see the world going crazy with clones...
 
@HostileFork There is only World, Boron and Topaz, as far as I'm aware.
I guess the Saphirion R3 (Saphir) is a fork of the official R3, but the idea is to merge as much as possible with the official R3.
 
12:30 PM
@Henrik Well those aren't proper forks. I think Topaz is best reimagined as a Red backend. It would be nice to be given the opportunity to meet Boron's needs with either Red or Rebol as appropriate. World is off my radar entirely, and I seem to recall it defining a character to print "Hello, World" which pointed to it being insane.
@Henrik I already patented the extreme of Rebol insanity, and I dare anyone to challenge it. REBmu ... Hourglass example
@KK Hey! Nice to see you. How's work?
I was just singing the praises of your subtitles. :-)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Nice to see you too.
@HostileFork Thanks. :-)
 
@KK Henrik lives in Denmark, he is working with Saphirion... if you didn't see the video he linked above about their work, here's that video
 
KK.
@HostileFork You've got a good car.
 
@KK. Have you seen one? They are very configurable. You can lean the back seats flat, or you can fold them against the side, or you can release them and take them out entirely.
 
KK.
@HostileFork No, this was the first time I saw one.
 
12:36 PM
@KK. It is a good car for single programmers. It is a bad car for parents. Due to the unique construction, you cannot safely put a child seat in the back.
 
KK.
@HostileFork So people at Saphirion are doing all that in Rebol? Great!
@HostileFork You can worry about children when you have them. The car is great for now. :-) :-)
 
@KK. Yup. But as you know, Rebol and Red are more ambitious than just a few guys with a swiss army knife. Although sometimes, @DocKimbel makes me think that the "just a few guys with a killer tool" vision would be okay with him. :-/ (!)
 
KK.
@HostileFork Yes. It is great that people are using Rebol on actual, real world, money-making projects, and its not just a hobby/prototyping language.
 
I'm somewhat populist. Power-to-the-people, that sort of thing... I want these gurus to reach out more.
 
KK.
@HostileFork When can random idiots I start using Red? I did not see a tutorial or anything on the website.
 
12:42 PM
@KK. Well, some parts are written in C, as performance is needed, so there is some "cheating".
 
@KK. I say give Red 6 months minimum. It's evolving rapidly but for now I think Rebol is the right place to learn.
 
KK.
@Henrik Even then it is great!
@HostileFork @Henrik Since functions in Rebol do not explicitly need to return something (as last line or block is returned), how do you guys handle simple functions?
For example, I have a function:
create-file-name: func [name] [
file-name: copy ""
file-name: %appdata/
append copy file-name name
append copy file-name ".txt"
]
Now, if for debugging, I place another line for printing file-name, like so:
create-file-name: func [name] [
file-name: copy ""
file-name: %appdata/
append copy file-name name
append copy file-name ".txt"
print file-name
]
 
@HostileFork I'm building Red for me as first user, but it's certainly not just for a few guys. The current state of Red and its users shouldn't be taken as a hint on how it will look like once it will be completed and officialy ready for prime time. Reaching a critical mass of users will be vital for Red's future.
 
So @KK... @pekr is a designer and Rebol enthusiast with just one point... basically ground zero in StackOverflow. He's logged back in but can't talk. He was, quite reasonably, displeased by the barrier. I wonder if you have a reaction or thought about his feelings there.
@DocKimbel Well, trust me. Speaking of which, did you see my Unicode test file notes?
@KK also doesn't he look like the model for my avatar? :-)
 
@KK. No tutorials yet, not even a documentation for Red yet :-(, it's a bit early as we are still working heavily on Red to add missing features. Although, that doesn't stop some people from using it already and building bindings and demos with it.
@HostileFork "Unicode test file notes" nope, got a link?
 
12:52 PM
@DocKimbel Thanks to search, I do. People really underestimate this tool, y'know.
Oh, I forgot, AltME is so great.
Mea culpa!
@DocKimbel, also would you mind adding me on Gmail chat or Skype? details in the FAQ
 
@HostileFork Sure, will do.
@HostileFork Could you please sum me up the main points about your Unicode notes wrt Red? Currently, AFAIK, Red Unicode support is broader than R3's one.
 
@DocKimbel It's not about Red. It's about having ".r" files that aren't UTF-8, and where the strings being whitebox passed to Red haven't been ^^ double caret escaped so they're trying to feed binary streams in which are illegal in R3...
 
KK.
@HostileFork When I first came across chat, I just felt chat was something useless that people did in their free time. By the time I actually wanted to chat, I had more than the 20 points needed for chat. But I think @pekr has a valid point.
I think like careers.stackoverflow, there can be a system of inviting people, or letting people to be invited by room owners.
 
@pekr does have a valid point. I just hope we can convince him that it's worth it to jump the barrier. I told him I would write an answer to a question for him if he felt it was too much of a burden.
 
@rgchris $RANDOM is a Bash-ism, so maybe adding /shell helps: call/shell/wait/output "echo $RANDOM" random: "" (works for me).
 
KK.
1:18 PM
@HostileFork It is nice that there are more people in this room.
The more people are here, the better.
 
@KK. We have had some interesting experiences with new people... I am starting to wonder if the right thing to do is to just be curious about them... ask them what's up, not be all "sell-y"
I'm trying to adapt the approach.
@KK. I don't understand your question... you mean... what to do if you want to add an extra line? You'd say print file-name and then return file-name. I don't have a problem with explicit returns in that kind of case, it's documentation... but this debate exists in Ruby too.
 
KK.
@HostileFork Ok. I have not used Ruby so I guess it was confusion from experiencing this behavior for the first time. :-)
 
@KK. It is planned for Rebol to have a return specification from functions, so you say foo: func [x [integer!] return: [string!]] [either x >= 0 ["Positive or zero"] [-1]] and you get the type checked so that would be an error...
@KK. See, a clever use in the specification dialect for what a set-word! means. :-)
Although it is planned it is unimplemented, though Red implements it.
I'm sure it is a minor thing to write, we just have to get our repository in control of someone who will integrate changes. And that someone is standing right... over... THERE => (cough, @earl, cough)
 
KK.
@HostileFork I feel so lucky, talking to language implementors like @earl and @DocKimbel on an almost daily basis!!!
 
@KK. I wouldn't be here if I didn't feel the same enthusiasm, but I'm not exactly nobody myself. Regardless of what others might say. :-)
I'm just trying to be a cat herder
 
KK.
1:35 PM
@HostileFork As long as I am talking to you, I do not need anyone else's opinion of you. Anybody can see you are a better developer than most people, with your blog and the Ruby-like dialect and the codegolf dialect and lots of things that I do not even know about.
Also, anybody who uses Rebol in today's world does not care for what the world thinks :-)
2
 
@KK. You got that right!
I'm a relative newbie to Rebol, remember it started in 1998
I showed up way later (post R3, never programmed in VID), got some of the ideas, griped about it NOT being open source, yelled at everyone for being too closed up and that the project was headed for oblivion...and disappeared. Came back in December when my demands were met. :-)
Now I'm learning stuff.
It's fun and weird. Of course @BrianH is knotted up over decades of excruciating considerations. And @DocKimbel has his own completely fresh view of the situation. But it's going to take everyone's perspectives to build the thing we visualize in our mind's eye...
I don't think other languages have this kind of "crusade"...people do get religious about their languages sometimes, but not like this.
To most, it's just a job.
 
KK.
@HostileFork Great video.
 
@KK. These things we discuss here, now, are a mere childlike understanding... but you must crawl before you can walk...
PHP, is more like...
 
KK.
@HostileFork I have never used PHP too, but lots of people bash it in lots of ways. Gotta leave. Bye.
 
@KK. TTYL...
If programming were a religion, PHP is kind of the antichrist. A true Fractal of Bad Design...
"Virtually every feature in PHP is broken somehow. The language, the framework, the ecosystem, are all just bad. And I can’t even point out any single damning thing, because the damage is so systemic. Every time I try to compile a list of PHP gripes, I get stuck in this depth-first search discovering more and more appalling trivia. (Hence, fractal.)"
 
2:35 PM
I came in here to discuss programming languages, not PHP.
 
3:16 PM
@SomeKittens Hehehe
@SomeKittens So did you ever notice the PHP logo is the "blue pill"?
@SomeKittens They even kerned it wrong. I think this is intentional. It's like a compass... you have to have a right direction and a wrong direction...
It's so bad as to call attention.
To how catastrophically bad it is.
Unfortunately, the rebol.com site has a similar "kick me" sign on it. Hard to make a site so ugly. But @earl has done a tidy job of kicking off the community built download site, and I hope we can continue in the spirit of the elegance he pursues.
RE: PHP ... as the band TATU says: "Clowns that only let you know, where you let your senses go.". => "Can you see me now?"
Rebol has its share of problems, make no mistake, but not... like... that.
 
Show me a language free of problems and I'll show you an empty file.
 
@SomeKittens How much do you know about Unicode?
 
Some, I'm by no means an expert
 
Well I'm a n00b
But not so n00b anymore, because I'm having to port Rebol 2 code to Rebol 3
And Rebol 3 is Unicode. UTF-8 source encoding. You know UTF-8?
 
@HostileFork yeah
 
3:29 PM
Anyhow, I think I explained that Rebol strings are kind of cool. You can encode them with braces, like print {"Hey @SomeKittens, it's nice to meet you," said {HostileFork} and "I probably already mentioned that asymmetric string delimiters are convenient with respect to escaping..."}
And escaping is done with caret, which is a pretty good escaping character when you think about it. Who uses that?
So like print {Hey ^(tab) dude.}
There's shorthand for that, like ^/ for newline etc.
I forget the tab thing. ^- maybe.
 
So I've got the interactive shell open, is there anything tutorial-like for newbies?
 
@KK. not sure if this answers your question, but we have a small library that shows a function call "stack" in the console, so we can see which functions are called.
but functions have to be designed around it to work. in R3, this is not necessary.
 
@SomeKittens I want to balance my enthusiasm for the language against the honest fact that the head guy didn't develop it for two years and kind of threw us the code for the next version and ran off... so... um... we only got the source in December.
@SomeKittens But let's have some fun anyway.
 
Happy December!
 
Okay, let's begin. print "Hello"
 
3:35 PM
yup
 
Okay, now let's give you some tools. type? "Hello"
 
== string!
 
@SomeKittens So there are a lot of different... token or symbol types if you will. Strings are one. Rebol ends types in exclamation points. Because types are important I guess. :)
Try now type? first [a b c]
 
...word?
 
word! :-)
So different from type? first ["a" "b" "c"]
 
3:41 PM
I've also just discovered that 'a' is different than "a"
@HostileFork string for that one
 
@SomeKittens You have to know that apostrophes, are not string delimiters in Rebol. {a} and "a" are both strings. But 'a is a "literal word". It's like putting something in quotes... you mean "I'm only mentioning this word, I'm not using it". use/mention distinction
But Rebol is seriously effed up, it will blow your mind, and the fact is that I can't really tell you what it is because I can only tell you how certain contexts treat symbols.
So to try and tell you what a literal word does, or what a string does, or what an integer does is kind of meaningless... because there's so much context-dependence.
So I can say things like code: [] => append code 'print => append code "Hello, world!" => do code
But if I didn't have the apostrophe on that print, it wouldn't be treated as a symbol... it would try to run print. And be pissed off that there wasn't anything to print. Catch my drift?
 
Yeah, like lisp
 
Yup, very similar.
But there's a really serious crazy depth here. Wanna get tripped out?
type? first [() () ()]
 
sure
heh. Well played Rebol, well played.
 
Rebol does all the matching for you. You have MULTIPLE symbolic grouping types...
Welcome to the language construction set.
second first [(a + b) (c + d)]
A new world opens.
And... some people with serious cred have been hacking on this since 1998.
@SomeKittens Matz (of Ruby creation fame) himself tweeted about the Rebol open sourcing. It's a big deal.
Unfortunately, we're a bit screwed on marketing. Working on that.
 
3:55 PM
I'd say all the marketing in the world won't help unless you've got a solid way to learn (at least the basics) of the language
 
@SomeKittens I'm with you. I cloned "Try Ruby" and took it down. I'll put it up for you, for a moment, to show that we're not all idiots...
Unfortunately, I'm not very good with securing it, please don't enter an endless loop or format that server.
We've got some better ideas.
 
Yay, looks good.
Fortunately, I don't know enough to even put it in an endless loop
 
@SomeKittens Well, please don't, my VPS people send me pissed off e-mails.
They take care of it, and it's all backed up, so hackers can only do so much... and actually hostilefork.com isn't even on that, it's just a playground for me.
I pay my $30/mo and get my VPS to play with, but whatever.
It's not important.
Still please don't crash it. :-)
Or erase it
Like, as a favor or something.
 
sudo rm -rf / //MUHAHA
(in all honestly, it's pretty nice)
 
You need to use CALL for that. But don't.
I think I at least protected against that, but if I didn't, oh well.
I think the worst you can do is hang it.
But I read the logs, so many hackers.
It depresses me.
Looking for phpmyadmin, or a root account, or whatever. I don't know much about system security, but there ain't any root password.
@KK. While I'm letting you vandals look at my machines, please see Try Rebol.
 
KK.
4:05 PM
@HostileFork Looking at it.
 
Don't write an infinite loop or I'll get angry mail.
 
"Oh look, a site about an entirely new language! I bet it runs PHP!" <- I cannot fathom the depths of insanity that it would take to frame that idea
 
Don't erase my files or, well, I guess I'll just have to cope.
It's all backed up.
I'll just be annoyed. ;-)
@SomeKittens have you seen repl.it ? I think that is the way to go, these Javascript backend Clang things are cool. We're on it, just going to take time, that's why I wish people would work more on the learning scripts and worry less about the server hassles.
 
Things like it, yes
 
@SomeKittens So, you are starting to get the idea that Rebol is a "new Lisp". You understand the basics. And I tried to point to this... it's like: code: compose [print (reverse "olleh")] => probe code => do code
Suddenly you get it. Symbolic tinker-toys, and compose is a machine that is seeking parenthesized structures inside boilerplate... I'm not joking, this stuff will blow your mind.
The possibilities are as limitless as when I discovered programming existed in the first place, Mr. AmigaOS has given us another esoteric gift...
 
4:11 PM
How difficult is it to write a Rebol interpreter inside Rebol?
 
As @DocKimbel says, Rebol was invented by "the famous Carl Sassenrath". He has a wikipedia page, so I guess that's famous. :-)
 
I'm done with Try Rebol, you can take it down now
 
@SomeKittens Not that difficult, but not trivial, it depends on what you want...
@KK. Finished?
 
KK.
@HostileFork Going through the tutorial.
 
@SomeKittens Someone, and I won't name names, put it in an infinite loop, and I got a call from the VPS
 
KK.
4:14 PM
If it happened just now, I think that someone is me.
I left a block open by mistake, and reset and Ctrl-D did not help.
 
@KK. I'll look but don't worry, I can like... run top and kill things. But that assumes I'm awake and bothering to look. :-)
If I'm not, my host gets antsy about the CPU
 
KK.
@HostileFork are you gonna take Try Rebol down now?
 
@KK. If you're done with it, sure, but you can just read the Tutorial Script Wiki.
I was just trying to show @SomeKittens that not everyone in Rebol space is a brain-dead web-unaware zombie. Even if they suck at sysadmin. :-)
As I seriously do suck.
At that.
 
Knowing next to nothing about Rebol, would it be possible to create an interpreter that'll interrupt after a certain time?
 
Which is why I like the repl.it idea. No securing, no session cookies, let people pay for their own experiences in the client.
 
KK.
4:18 PM
@HostileFork Admitting that one sucks is the first step towards not sucking. :-)
 
@SomeKittens Feature exists, if I recall correctly. Rebol (3) is all kinds of cool in that area. x: [a b c] => protect x => append x [d e f] ... error!
I do think there's a cycle limit.
@KK. I try to tell people this, but they seem to not get it. :-)
Offhand I forget the limit function, there's lots of things I don't know, bear in mind I didn't write any of this stuff I'm just here to talk about it.
You need to talk to @BrianH
 
4:33 PM
Well, any aspiring hackers who wanted to crash me via Rebol bugs have lost their chance. TryRebol taken down again. But @SomeKittens, point is some of us have been trying... it's just tough when you don't call the shots...
There's been lots of begging and pleading over the years, and Red is a bit of a declaration of independence... it's hard to contextualize Rebol's open sourcing without guidance when Red was maturing... Kaj kind of has a point to call it an attack...
To me there's no Rebol or Red, there's just a big bag of design decisions and tradeoffs that should be made rationally.
 
@HostileFork, loved the PHP rant, literally LOL'd at the kerning comment.
 
@BrianH I'm a bit of a Matrix philosopher. I find it interesting that Nelson's After the Rain video has a red/blue choice far before the Matrix. And a purple feather. I'm a coder in an abstract sense. :-) Anyway, PHP is terrible, the logo is terrible... I've tried to help Rebol succeed on more than mere technical merit...
And yeah, blue pill, if you don't get the joke then maybe the joke isn't that good.
I'll try harder next time. The joke will be even worse and the pill will be rendered really obviously as a pill.
 
No, I got it, but it was a multiple punchline rant and the kerning one was funnier because it built on the rest :)
 
@BrianH Yes, well, the kerning is the icing on that particular cake.
"Could you be any more wrong" => "Yep!" => "Oh no you didn't..."
I do think bad languages serve a purpose. If not for the bad, how would we know the good? Tricky.
"Is stupid really stupid, or a different kind of smart..."
I'm actually not joking...I think that as we engineer the most correct language, an equal and opposite reaction is trying to build the most incorrect one...PHP might be it.
They may be isomorphs.
I'll work on making the PHP logo worse....but I kind of am stumped.
That's about as bad as I can do without being too obvious. A Papyrus font or whatever seems... eh, gauche.
 
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