« first day (800 days earlier)      last day (2980 days later) » 

1:06 AM
@rgchris load-webform is very nice, thanks for porting it over. I definitely want this stuff included in an R3 binary as "delayed module" that allows you to just import 'cgi if you want to write CGIs.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:40 AM
@rgchris Pretty sweet.
@earl Does look like there could be some subtle differences. :-/ Right now I'm just dealing with the not-so-subtle ones.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:35 AM
0
Q: Common way of testing for membership in a MAP! working in both Rebol 2 and 3?

HostileForkIn Rebol 2 there was a HASH! type as well as a MAP! type. Both of which were supported by the FIND and SELECT functions, as well as by path-based selection: >> m: to map! [someKey someValue] == make hash! [someKey someValue] >> m/someKey == someValue >> select m 'someKey == ...

 
4:45 AM
I really wish people doing the Q&A on Google Groups or on Q&A on Graham's Board, or wherever else these things are going on, would use StackOverflow instead... :-/
I put links to the questions/answers into code next to the code itself, as a way of preserving the institutional knowledge of why something "is the way it is"; but then someone coming along later trying to understand weird code can look at the link and see if any new information has come to light.
So much of this knowledge is locked up somewhere. Hard to see, hard to update. Leaving behind mystery code that must be re-figured out.
Even if I think I know the answer to something or have decided on it, by documenting it and putting it out in the open I can either (a) help someone else facing the same problem or (b) have a better solution presented to me. It is worth the time.
 
@HostileFork Well, added an answer for your institutional knowledge: use SELECT :)
 
Yep. See, worth the ask. I saw Red using FIND and then I started on the quest and pieced the question together in a non-linear fashion.
 
Now if only R3's map! where case-sensitive ...
 
5:02 AM
O noes. select to map! ["someKey" "someValue"] "SOMEKEY" == "someValue"
I would call that high priority to fix.
 
I would so too (obviously). Unfortunately, REBOL dogma does not agree.
 
Well, I mean perhaps the idea that you have to say SELECT/CASE is okay. But that doesn't work on a MAP! apparently.
 
No. The most realistic candidate for a fix currently seems to be adding another datatype, a "case-sensitive map!" (tentatively called strict-map!).
 
Because it's trying to performance optimize for case insensitivity?
And SELECT/CASE would be "too late" to make the decision?
 
Yes. Case-insensitive hashing occurs before someone wants to do a case-sensitive lookup.
 
5:09 AM
Rebol is not C++. This falls under the category of things that I think should be under the hood and done with magic dust somehow rather than seeping into the programs themselves.
 
Hmm, but creating a case-preserving map! which is still hashed but defers case-sensitivity until lookup would maybe indeed be an option.
Would still leave the issue that you'd have to use select and forego path! notation.
 
I was thinking about that with respect to the request for hash and list making a comeback, when I think these are the kinds of things that would be done better with some kind of "hinting" while keeping the types themselves pure. I wrote an article about this.
A lot of performance stuff is mythology these days. When Bjarne Stroustrup came and talked to my group he showed some interesting results about a problem a lot of people are surprised by. Consider this:
"Generate N random integers and insert them into a sequence so that each is inserted in its proper position in the numerical order." So 5 1 4 2 gives: [5] [1 5] [1 4 5] [1 2 4 5]
"Remove elements one at a time by picking a random position in the sequence and removing the element there." So positions 1 2 0 0 gives [1 2 4 5] [1 4 5] [1 4] [4]
Now the interesting question posed: "For which N is it better to use a linked list than a vector (or an array) to represent the sequence?"
To make a long story short, the complexity and memory/caching/layering in modern systems is so complex that our algorithmic intuition is frequently off. We don't really understand the cost of cache misses on performance, and our desire to reduce high-level algorithmic "cost" vs. "caching in" on locality can hurt us more than help us a lot of the time.
Here's the graph:
My opinion is that Rebol should focus on giving programmers a nice terra-firma, not overcomplicating their lives, making programming fun and fluid. It needs to know its niche, and its niche is not performance. Doesn't mean it has to be slow, but the types should be kept simple...and I think that removing HASH! and LIST! are good ideas. Making MAP! a type with its own interface is good, but STRICT-MAP! sounds like pollution to me.
All things being equal, I wouldn't want MAP! either...rather a hint on an ordinary block that it will be used often in a MAP!-like way. But if it's going to be a new type, it should have a unique interface.
If Rebol had one keyword HINT that just let you point at things and hint at how you might use them, that would be preferable.
foo: [someKey someValue] then hint foo 'select-access. type? would still say it's a block! but it would be faster for select access under the hood. Turn on performance warnings and it would tell you "hey, you did something unorthodox that undermined your hint and is probably causing your program to run slower because we had to convert it back to a block to do that operation".
 
5:44 AM
Okay, wait. MAP! is necessary because of semantics.
In R3: select to map! [a b c d] 'b == none but select [a b c d] 'b == 'c (in R2, there is no semantic difference in HASH!)
Which sort of gets back to my point about only having data types be introduced and different if they actually have different interfaces.
That's a case where if this is supposed to be a language feature, then yes... make a new type.
But LIST! and HASH! are misguided, as is STRICT-MAP!...because they don't represent wanting a new "thing" they just are about getting better performance out of the old interface. In a perfect world with an infinitely fast computer, you'd never bother with them.
 
Yes, map! is necessary unless we really want to live any longer without a proper "dictionary"-style datatype.
 
While I bet a lot of usages would be premature optimization of questionable value, it's a bit of a failure of imagination to think of what kinds of better hints that don't break the interface could be able to do. I always wanted an instruction in processors to say "hey, please, I'm going and hitting a big hash table...it's spread out, DON'T cache this!"
Not that I'd ever know if it did or not
I'd just be offering advice
 
Yes, as you stated above, It's not really about performance optimisation, as it is about being able to craft a different interface supporting a particular usage pattern better.
 
I'm starring that. :-)
 
I want a dictionary, because I want to be able to talk about "keys" and "values" (not about 2-sized subparts of a block where FIRST happens to be called key and SECOND Value).
I want to have set semantics for keys.
Etc.
 
5:57 AM
What would it take for such things to be expressed in source without the TO MAP! ...? Has anyone considered this?
(And while we're on the subject, are the TO-STRING TO-INTEGER etc. combinatorics really necessary? I kind of like TO STRING! and TO INTEGER! better. It's more future-proof in terms of when you teach it to people then they know that TO exists and can be parameterized.)
 
@HostileFork I think you could come up with a collection of "dictionary" functions, which would then just abuse a block! as underlying data structure. However, I really think that's abuse in this case. Even though Rebol lends itself to this thinking, I don't think we should try to hard to make different things look equal; i.e. not everything necessarily has to be a block.
 
@earl Well, in a sense SELECT/SKIP 2 could be considered this operation. select/skip [a b c d] 'b 2 == none
 
@HostileFork Yes. Ugly as bat shit. As are EXTRACT ... 2 and EXTRACT ... 1. And you'd have to be sure to use INSERT for new data, to get set semantics by relying on an implementation detail of SELECT.
 
Well SELECT/DICTIONARY could be declared as equivalent... ?
 
Working with keyed data is something extremely frequent. Go SELECT/DICTIONARY somewhere else where nobody is looking :)
 
6:05 AM
I do think that the combination of a HINT plus a PERFORMANCE warning system could make it possible to just make everything use BLOCK! and you'd be told when you were thrashing things.
But the different semantics on path selection do make it ugly. A BLOCK! cannot serve two masters...
 
R2 has a decade of experience with trying out to fit everything into block!. I didn't work out too badly, but it didn't work out too well either.
 
Well, is MAP! the only datatype that has no lexographic representation in source?
(in R3)
 
They all have :)
The other datatype that looks similar to a block but really is different are objects.
R3 started to embrace that difference more than R2 ever did. I hope we'll get that for maps in R3 as well, eventually.
@HostileFork Re lexical forms: mold/all is your friend :)
 
Okay, so I haven't looked at the implementation...you might know...is even a dirt-slow SELECT/CASE possible on R3 maps or is the case data just gone by the time it's a map? I assume the latter.
 
It's gone. (But I'm just assuming that as well. Maybe the implementation is already case-preserving and it's just hidden completely from the surface.)
 
6:17 AM
I wouldn't expect that. But one could double hash the keys, one in the original case and one in a canonical case, then if you've got a select/case you look up via the original. Chew a bit out somewhere if the key is a WORD! and avoid the second hash, you only pay for it on STRING!. This can probably be finessed.
New datatype sounds like a bad idea.
Wait, select/case is case-sensitive for words too?! select/case [a b] 'A == none and select/case [a b] 'a == 'b
Sigh. So much for what I thought I knew. Okay, Rebol is case-insensitive...except when it is.
I'm glad Ladislav goes around formalizing things. Formalism is not Carl's strong suit! :-/
 
6:38 AM
Well, I'm too sleepy to really read the s-crc.c and t-map.c code. But I guess I'd lean toward saying that the map do a case-insensitive hash by default but preserve the casing, then the first time you SELECT/CASE on it you get an expansion to where it hashes by case also. I'll look into it.
If Rebol canon is case-insensitive for path lookup I guess that's just that.
 
I would much prefer Rebol being case-sensitive in general ...
 
As they say (tag) on slashdot... #goodluckwiththat :-)
 
Maybe for the hostile fork called Freebol ...
 
I'm kind of actually in support of the case-insensitivity because of the linguistic roots of Rebol. Like if I say, like, hey... you realize the capitalized Like and the lowercase like are the same word.
I'm happy for Rebol to be different, and in fact that's some of what I ranted about earlier regarding my comparison between using engineering design tools and a paintbrush
 
Yeah, and I land on the different end of that comparison, I guess.
 
6:45 AM
If I want C++11 I use C++11, and it's badass cool. So I'm more annoyed when Rebol isn't being itself in a consistent way than if it's not being a suitable tool for engineering.
I think case-insensitivity for lookup is a good thing, but as a practical concern, it sucks for strings. I guess you could, if you wanted to, use a TO BINARY! and presumably that works
 
It sucks for everything computers. And even though some might like not to measure Rebol to engineering standards, it still is a computer programming language.
It might be so much more as well, but if it completely fails at this foundation, the other shining parts won't have any solid ground upon which to stand and shine.
 
Presumption is always a bad idea, but: select [#{AA} b] #{AA} == 'b so seems safe.
 
binary! works, yes. But you don't want to convert all your data to binary before storing it in a dictionary.
(binary! is the oft-suggested workaround, that ought to be good for everyone. Geez.)
 
Didn't say it was good for everyone, just thought of it then as a workaround.
I'm not up on this stuff, I kind of let my Rebol interest drop until the open sourcing. :-)
 
No, sorry. That's only my anger surrounding this whole "let's make map! unusable for anything practical" sentiment that is all too present in a few other Rebol subcommunities cmoing through.
 
6:52 AM
NP. But yeah, the mismatch between expectation and how Rebol does things is tricky, I just read an old post from someone griping about either and then they have to be told that if/else exists, but no one uses it...
Teaching people if/else before either makes a lot of sense
Because then they understand refinements, something taking an additional argument
But teaching either first is like jumping to the conclusion before giving people a chance to reach it themselves.
And what Rebol has chosen to make "convenient" is often random, I'll cite my earlier to-integer vs to integer!. Why make to-integer look foundational, what gets saved by that? Of all the contractions, why that one...?
 
Heh. That is simple. ! is harder to type on US keyboards than -, and it's 1 character less in total.
 
At the cost of a function call... :-P
 
I much preferred to-integer for a long time. Because it has a more "unitary" appearance, I guess.
 
We need a Rebol keyboard mapping. Take back some character they never really use in the non-shifted space and use it for exclamation point.
How about semicolon? :-P
It's used so rarely that I see no reason not to make it SHIFT-1
 
I visually capture to-integer as one token, whereas I scan two tokens in to integer!. Maybe I wrote too many lexers. But this makes code more "concise" to my inner eye.
However, I've now mostly adjusted to to <datatype!>. Seems to be more en vogue for R3 :)
So, and with this rather void remark, I'm off for now. Gotta run, bye.
 
7:02 AM
TTYL. Tomorrow I will take a look at this SELECT/CASE on MAP! issue...I don't think a STRICT-MAP! sounds very elegant.
 
 
8 hours later…
dt2
2:33 PM
About freebol-domain, would that include a server? Could mean "free rebol hosting". Small accounts, sort of active pastebin to demo rebol-cgis.
(everything could be hostile forked of course :P
 
@dt2 Well, I'm open to whatever interesting purpose someone has for freebol.org and will point the DNS wherever. I've decided on a different name for my custom distribution of Rebol, should I make one. :-)
I was going to let it lapse, but renewed it for 1 year when the open sourcing announcement was made because I thought it might have some useful purpose to someone.
@dt2 Speaking of "active pastebin with easy forking", have you seen data.stackexchange.com ?
 
dt2
Active as in: runs code on server. There is tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl, but that has no persistence.
For example, if one answers questions to a guestbook, it would be nice to point to a live guestbook where everything could be browsed.
Ah, did not note this accepts sql to the so-db. fun idea :)
 
3:27 PM
@dt2 I have pushed for a Try Rebol and made one more like Try Clojure, which itself was inspired by Try Ruby
I tried defining the tutorial script on the wiki and asking for help, but no one was interested in helping at the time. Hmm, dead links. Well, I'll find the new links and fix them at some point.
You can tell nobody read it way back when, because no one pointed out IF/ELSE to me. :-)
Guess I never did HELP IF and no tutorial ever mentioned it.
I just ran Valgrind on Rebol for the first time. With optimizations turned off, it starts up okay. But with optimizations on...startup has 12 instances of "Conditional jump or move depends on uninitialised value(s)"
That's...not good. Most people are building with -O2. So now I now have to go over these functions and see where they invoke Undefined Behavior :-/
 
 
2 hours later…
dt2
5:14 PM
I thought more like the old rebol-view-desktop. The demo-page. But this time with cgi and quick hosting. With the try* i can try for myself. But i can not point others to it.
Other languages have this: c9.io . And some free devhosting from there. Interactive cloud-advertising :)
 
@dt2 I'm familiar. @rgchris actually helped me out with the ACE editor syntax highlighter for Rebol. Another place we could perhaps push to get into the default distribution...
 
dt2
But they do not focus on showing code. I would like a github for code with live examples and pointing from so-answers to parts of it.
 
Well, all in time I guess. We all get these crazy ideas...this morning I was wondering what it would take to just rip up Chromium and V8 and leave it alone in functionality...except all the files (CSS, JavaScript, etc.) would use Rebol-formatted files.
Then I realized I was tripping too hard, and I put down the crack pipe. :-)
 
dt2
Ace + webdav+ quick accounts + cgi + some moderation.
Dont leave alone, embrace and extend :)
Run rebol behind nodejs and use all the nice libs.
I would try it thru pipes. You could try to use the actual c-apis :)
 
so we have graphics officially released... but it's still windows only as i see. :/
 
5:25 PM
@earl Any idea why there could be a division by zero in this call to Find_Key? I have a reproducible but complex situation of a map where hser->tail is 0. That does not please Find_Key.
Attempts to generate a simpler repro have yet to bear fruit.
@onetom No pull request just yet...where's the announcement?
 
dt2
What is a good way to browse the c-code? eclipse?
 
Sigh. If only they knew the wonder of working in The Future. :-)
Some videos on the Internet I watch for Futurist comfort. This one often pleases me, just in terms of the message...
Despite that particular pro-Google message, Google Groups does not please me.
I'm all ears for anyone who wants to help evangelize this as a good hangout for the Rebol-interested for disposable knowledge. As @earl has pointed out, this is not a good format for "institutional knowledge"...I think of it more as "whoever's awake right now to triage", more in the IRC spirit.
 
5:40 PM
@dt2 I think I saw a tuto somewhere showing how to configure eclipse with git
Hello, stackoverflowed Rebol community!
Happy new redbol year!!
 
Hello @pierre :) Yes, it's certainly a very different year for Rebol/Red than last.
 
I hope!!
I haven't dived into R3 source yet, I'm afraid...
 
Are you very familiar with C programming?
 
gitted it, compiled it, git pulled it again, make, works!
not really:
all I did in C was some utilities, a few years ago:
just opening files with huge loads of numeric data, computing numbers, and writing out the results in another ascii file
nothing fancy at all...
so whenever I look at some C code, I often get quickly lost...
 
The Rebol sources are very old school, systems-type stuff... it reads kind of like a lot of interpreters. I thought it ironic how it reminded me of the Logo interpreter I was griping about in this article. :-)
 
5:45 PM
Yes, I remember you said that, a while ago,
you also mentioned that Red code seemed more...
more something.
future-proof?...
 
Well, yes. But I've worked in bootstrap situations before.
My opinion--for what it is worth--is that R3 and Red should unify their expectations and subset of functionality...that Red should bootstrap on R3, which is in turn bootstrapped off of ANSI C. Rebol should be to Red as ANSI C is to Rebol, and Red should be cautious in throwing away that bootstrap.
There will be a period of time for which driving Rebol-style language will require a language that is not as freaky as Red. To grab the Perl or PHP people, they will not accept something that is so heavily boostrapped...they want to dig in and "see the C"
To my eyes, this is the necessity and purpose of Rebol.
 
Hm.
 
Rebol is weird enough as it is, from a user perspective, without trying to sell it to someone and saying "hey, want a change to your Red system? Or a fix? Just look at the Red sources..."
 
On my side, I am more than deceived by the usability of Rebol3 (I hate this meaningless R3 word!), compared to my "good old" Rebol2/View.
 
Even people who were leaning toward interest will run screaming.
 
5:52 PM
yes! ;-)
 
Anyway, there is some "mindshare competition" between Rebol and Red right now, and I'd like that to not be the way of looking at it... the better way is to see Red as Rebol 4... the next natural evolution that would have been pursued anyway.
 
Hm.
Red does not have the same targets as Rebol, has it?
Well, not exactly, but...
I eventually managed to get a login into AltMe. It took a while!
Quite a bit of talking, there...
There is also a French forum, quite active.
And this is what I was afraid of:
dispersion...
It seems to be the MAIN problem that our Rebol/Red has... Everything is dispersed: things used to be so simple, a decade back... Everything was working, smoothly. Information was centralised. But now...
 
Well I wasn't around then. When I found out about Rebol the R3 was "the next thing". I never learned or used VID.
I just thought "oh, that's deprecated. Nevermind that. Let me try and understand this."
And several years passed. :-)
It's really only now I'm having to look at what the differences are between R2 and R3.
1
Q: Can parse on binary! in Rebol 2 capture a binary! instead of a string! (like in Rebol 3)?

HostileForkConsider the following: >> bin: to-binary {Rebol} == #{5265626F6C} >> parse/all bin [s: to end] == true I expect s to have captured the head of the binary series, and be of type BINARY!. In Rebol 3 this is the case: >> type? s == binary! >> s == bin == true In Reb...

0
Q: Behavior change from Rebol 2 to Rebol 3 for empty BITSET! testing; how to test EMPTY?

HostileForkIn Rebol 2 you could check for an empty bitset with EMPTY? >> empty? make bitset! #{00} == true In Rebol 3 (Build 21-Feb-2011/0:44:24) this is not the case. >> empty? make bitset! #{00} == false Bug or new behavior? Either way, how else might I do this test? Empty bitsets of d...

0
Q: Common way of testing for membership in a MAP! working in both Rebol 2 and 3?

HostileForkIn Rebol 2 there was a HASH! type as well as a MAP! type. Both of which were supported by the FIND and SELECT functions, as well as by path-based selection: >> m: to map! [someKey someValue] == make hash! [someKey someValue] >> m/someKey == someValue >> select m 'someKey == ...

I understand that for many, the value of Rebol 3 has not become obvious...besides adding Unicode and some enhancements to PARSE it seems to have taken several things that used to work away.
room topic changed to Rebol-and-Red: Discussions of the rebellious (and now open-source!) language Rebol, and its new offshoot Red (no tags)
 
6:12 PM
@HostileFork I have the almost opposite experience:
 
I think Red and Rebol is of interest to everyone, and Carl's suggestion of a conference in France is a suggestion that bringing concerns under a common umbrella is important.
 
I started with rebol2 with view, I was amazed by the power of VID first, then by the beauty of the langage
When Rebol3 was announced, I just stayed happily with my rebol2, but... it wasn't free/libre, so...
I dropped it...
hoping...
oops, I have to go: see you!
 
TTYL!
room topic changed to Rebol-and-Red: Discussions of the rebellious (and now open-source!) language Rebol, and its new offshoot Red [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol]
 
6:32 PM
Three odd words in there I didn't know were words. "mensuration", "noesis", and "taxas". Apparently all have meaning. "The act, process, or art of measurement", "perception of the mind", and (French?) "To impose a tax upon"...respectively.
"Profound" spam aside, I wonder who would bother to write scripts to spam the Rebol blog and poke the post ID into the webform. Is it one IP address? There's a lot of garbage on there, should be cleaned up.
 
7:22 PM
No, taxas is not French. Isn't it Texan?
 

« first day (800 days earlier)      last day (2980 days later) »