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4:54 AM
I see Red has gone with my belief and calls what was funct FUNCTION!
Yet preserved the low-level construct as func. I worry a little that so much code will still use that and as words go it is a turn-off.
But if Red is not concerned about being compatible with old Rebol code that used FUNCTION differently that's at least a step in the right direction of being willing to break with historical decisions that were not great.
 
 
8 hours later…
1:24 PM
@HostileFork: do you have to happen a favicon in line with your 3D "rebol rebooted" imagery as well?
 
hmm, i know that one. i'd have hoped for something more polished :)
 
the freebol windmill favicon is nice :)
 
I actually feel that as Favicons go, that is pretty polished.
But it's a trick. Look at Google's favicon evolution. I can look at the question again if you think it's important, but this frontal view is probably the correct attack.
 
1:27 PM
i'm fine with the perspective, but the aliasing doesn't look very good to me.
esp when appearing in an actual tab, as shown in e.g. your screenshot on hostilefork.com/shared/rebol/favicon.html.
 
Well I drew it in an online favicon editor for convenience. I can hack on it in PhotoShop and find some converter from PNG
I'll take a crack at it
 
ah, that wasn't meant to criticize your artistic skill. .ico's are limited, i don't think this aliasing will get much better.
but well, we'll see i guess :)
 
Well I agree looking at it that the Freebol icon came out nicer. And I did do that with a conversion.
 
i'm just looking for something to use for the wall of binaries page :)
 
Where will you host it?
 
1:32 PM
on one of my machines.
or maybe on S3 :)
 
Well hopefully seeing a compile and test pass on at least one elderly platform will incentivize Carl to be less demanding of the pull requests...I don't want to try and push dependent changes until previous ones have been accepted. Or independent ones.
 
ah, yes, testing your pull on osx ...
in any case, i'm actually more inclined to drop the support for "elder" platforms where we don't have anyone around championing them.
... and then drop this platform-code legacy.
 
Well, I would have agreed, except as I explained I now see Rebol in the long view as more of a boostrapping tool for Red...and being a stop-gap measure for various evangelism in the meantime to people who will reject Red because its implementation story is "too weird".
 
Well, I don't share that view :) In any case, Red requires R2 to bootstrap, and I don't think there are any plans to switch to R3 at the moment. And if Nenad persists, Red should be able to bootstrap itself rather sooner than later.
 
"Holding Rebol back" for the sake of some crunchy old platforms may seem like a bad idea, but it's not really held back. As I explained, the C++ build can have different definitions which only some people care about and check as static analysis. It will get easier to close bugs when modern methodologies such as that and your build farm are used.
I think that would be a misuse of Red's time.
 
1:48 PM
I don't think that "crunchy old platforms" are a bad idea, quite to the contrary. It's just that cross-platform porting is a serious effort, and with no one around caring and standing up for a particular platform, it's an illusion to think we can truly keep up cross-platform builds.
From the beginning, R3's story on OSX and Linux has been rather broken, because Carl didn't really care for them and only bolted cross-platform stuff on as an afterthought (based on bits from R2 he had left).
 
Well giving up the GUI on older platforms is fine. But I don't know how many features of the core interpreter are going to creep in that are dependent on more than Posix.
 
There are already quite a few. And the "POSIX" story is not particularly strong story either.
Maths, async IO, async DNS, call, browse are just a few things that spring to mind immediately.
We don't even have to start talking about the GUI, because we currently don't have that at all in the open source version. And over all of R3, we never had it for anything but Win32 (and, purportedly, for Amiga with X.)
 
So despite not talking about it, I saw murmurs that the work-in-progress may soon make an appearance.
And be relicensed and merged in
But that was Windows only, I guess
 
Yes, we have the full sources for the Win32 GUI stuff. It's already working with the open source version as well, just a matter of someone polishing it up and getting it ready for reintegration.
Re your environment patch, I managed one funky interaction on OSX:
>> set-env "FOO" "bar"
== "bar"
>> get-env "FOO"
== "FOO"
But I can't reproduce that at all.
 
2:06 PM
I suggested R2s Rebol/View looks to people like some strange reimplementation of an 80's cash register. I'm still a skeptic of the GUI agenda.
@earl Hrrrm. Well, how hard is it to write a test that just loops over setting and unsetting randomly named environment variables and checks consistency against a Rebol map? (Also: are the tests going to get put into the r3 GitHub or kept separate permanently?)
Passing in NONE to SET-ENV should unset.
Well, I do think I got the proportioning right in the Favicon it's just not easy to do antialiasing by hand and know what you can and can't get away with. Downsizing the O from the existing Rebol logo does not work, so I'm just going to scale up the Favicon as I drew it to a larger size, redraw it in vector on top of that to hope to pretty much hit the correct pixels in the 16x16 map, and shrink it back.
 
2:22 PM
@HostileFork Well, just looped over 10k randomly generated key/value pairs, can't reproduce that weirdness.
 
@earl A Heisenbug. Well, that's unfortunate.
 
May well have been some other input weirdness.
 
I guess if you're doing it interactively, the characters drawn OS/X terminal might not reflect what actually made it to the functions.
Adding an environment test to the suite sounds like due diligence. I don't know anything about writing natives so I wanted Carl/BrianH to look at it and hopefully have improvements, just to get this out of my way.
 
I don't think that BrianH knows anything about writing natives either :)
 
2:37 PM
Prior to the open sourcing, who had access to the code? Anyone?
Saw Ladislav's name on some stuff.
 
Basically nobody. Ladislav's name shows up for some maths/floating point-related work. I am told Gabriele also sometimes worked with/for Carl early on. The most recent graphics stuff is mostly Cyphre's work.
BrianH wrote or worked on many mezzanine parts, including almost all of the module system.
(The "module system" is another rant for another time :)
 
3:18 PM
@earl Okay, well, I have said that in general squaring the brackets on the [o] is not to be preferred. But favicons are 16x16 and the subtlety of not squaring them just looks like a mistake in an already limited medium. So perhaps best to make an exception at this resolution.
As mentioned I'd like the main logo tweaked to excise the Target and look more brackety, while not totally brackety.
It is a stronger mark than the other one, aliasing looks nicer, wound up still having to do a lot of it by hand.
It comes off thicker. Rather than cutting a line off the top and bottom I shade out a little and left a transparency gap. Good enough?
I'll tweak it for total symmetry, just haven't decided if I like the left or right better. Leaning toward right.
 
3:41 PM
Done, and if that's enough: rebol-thick-favicon.ico
 
Ah, yes, that looks much better. (At least I prefer it to the former round favicon.)
@HostileFork is it ok if i'm going to use it as favicon for the wall-of-binaries page for now?
btw, i don't think you have to restrict yourself to 8-bit icons nowadays. i think most browsers support 32-bit favicons. (but wouldn't probably be of any use for this all-gray icon in any case.)
 
3:57 PM
@earl As far as I'm concerned, yes.
I've basically given the logo design to Carl to use in however such way as one would use the Rebol trademark, and as there hasn't been a lot of forward motion toward rebuilding the Rebol website in a graphic-design-way or canonizing the design... I assume he is probably more interested in how the name is used.
But possibly not even all that hung up on that issue, other than "don't pretend to be me".
 
@HostileFork That's one reason why I won't just reuse RT's favicon :)
 
4:20 PM
So I had a thought that it might be neat to make it easy to write Rebol scripts, and without having to do anything special (not even run a build) embed that script into the executables for all platforms...so it was just one file that ran and did that one purpose.
Perhaps a feature we could add to your build farm. Upload your scripts and package them a certain way...push a button, and boom...single executables which can be placed in one position on the filesystem and have the interpreter packaged up with that script.
So for instance, I could do it for Rebmu and say "just download the EXE and run it" instead of "step one, get an interpreter..."
Maybe Rebol the executable could seek its own path, open itself as a file for read access, and check to see if script data had been appended to the end. If so, extract and run it. This way people who want to permanently patch their interpreters can do so.
 
They call that "encapping" in Rebol-ese: rebol.com/docs/sdk/encap.html
 
Well, great minds think alike. Cool. :-) Timeline for R3?
 
I think Saphirion has an encapper for R3 ready. Unpublished, afaik, and I haven't looked at it.
So rather sooner, than later, I'd say.
 
That would be neat. The other angle being the combination of a "build-farm" like process which could be online to encap things. I guess you could do it yourself if you had a directory full of binaries, regardless of platform, if the method was platform independent such as what I suggest.
 
4:35 PM
Yep, a service to create cross-platform encapped binaries from a script would be very nice.
 
People like doing these things with web interfaces for some reason. :-) Like "Initializr"
 
Should be doable :)
Well, you could quickly check if ELF, Mach-O and PE don't care about data appended to executables :) I'll try to talk to the Cyphre to find out how their encapper works and what it would take to get it released.
 
Neat. Well I guess the only thing I have to add is the "make a website to do it" part. Regardless of whether it's something that runs locally after downloading a ZIP from your wall-of-binaries, or if you do it from a website, it needs to take as input an icon set and the scripts and let you make an impressive grid to grab-and-go from.
 
Point well taken, yes
 
Hopefully showing up in the Finder on OS/X or whatever with the icons for your specific app, and not just look generic.
I'd like to get back to Rebmu. I don't know if you saw the crazy stuff I was doing with that, but it was pretty crazy. :-) With a little more work and a zero-effort install on platforms, it could lay waste to Golfscript.
Whose domain is down, which reminds me I have domains expiring tomorrow I need to renew. Sigh.
The Domain Name Mafia, a maze of false work in coupon codes. As A-Ha put it "They forgive anything but greatness / These are scoundrel days". A post-scarcity society will not be achieved in my lifetime, but for the sake of the coming AI wave I hope they don't inherit humanity's bad habits! :-/
 
5:13 PM
@HostileFork It doesn't cease to amaze me that not auto-renewing domains seems to be the norm in the US :)
 
@earl The only reason I don't auto-renew is because of the stupid coupon codes, if you don't go find one of those they charge you twice as much. Busywork.
 
Hmm, I don't think saving 4 bucks with a coupon is really worth the time chasing it in the first place :)
Unless we are of course talking about those horribly expensive "exotic" domains where 50% off actually makes a difference.
@HostileFork Yeah, I saw quite a few of your Rebmu submissions. As someone quite used to reading K or J, I was always wondering if one could get the hang of reading Rebmu (or Golfscript, for that matter) directly as well.
 
Heh, well I saved $30 by doing it for hostilefork.com and metaeducation.com for two years.
 
Well, better get rid of GoDaddy next time around while you are at it :)
 
They're all terrible. Might as well support the one that is cheapest and has hot girls in the ads...
@earl It's a stupid brain trick...you can eventually just filter it out and focus on reducing the complexity. It would be faster than coding in normal Rebol if not for the need to go through and recapitalize the character runs when you're changing code.
Wonder what an editor tailored to Rebmu editing in its native form would be like. It would be able to re-case the code...the way editors do things like hard wrapping for you.
Hello @dt2, did you figure out your build issue?
 
5:28 PM
@HostileFork That's a general problem with the open-source built R3s. Can't bootstrap the build with them.
 
Okay, when the question was posed earlier I admit I didn't go test because I thought I had done this, and in fact bootstrapped the make process in Haiku, and also done this in Debian. I am now here with my work machine so I am going to verify that and be very confused if it is not the case.
 
I thought I tried this as well, but it seems I didn't. After seeing it fail, I retried back with the original open source commit where it didn't work either.
 
But first... finishing my get-password-back-and-update-DocBase-Logo-Wiki: favicon on DocBase
I seem to have to reload in the browser to get the updated pictures. Wonder if that server is properly configured.
 
6:36 PM
Well, seems my original testing was not thorough enough.
Just bisected this issue (if you don't know it already: git bisect is pure magic), and it's an regression introduced by github.com/rebol/r3/commit/44012cc.
 

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