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12:01 AM
Based on that, a next step would be to carefully analyse ambiguities.
Unfortunately, that's also where we get into a dilemma. We can't model Rebol's termination/separation semantics faithfully with plain EBNF.
So we either have to switch to a different formalism and get limited in the choice of our analysis tools, or don't model "real" Rebol :)
 
@grasshopper Welcome grasshopper. When you can snatch the Rebol from my hands, it will be time for you to go. :-)
(Well, maybe too young to know the reference. It was a pebble, in Kung-Fu, and grasshopper was Caine's nickname.)
 
whoops, just browsing
moving along...
 
You're welcome to stay, I'm just making a joke.
We're trying to get people interested in Rebol, it's a language that was closed source for a looooong time.
Very different.
And now it's open source so people might actually be less likely to run screaming from it.
My wiki page on the Rebol DocBase has some links, they might be of interest...(well, they're at least some of my perspective).
 
A few options I can think of to illustrate what I mean: (1) Model that values must always be separated by whitespace: can be done in EBNF, does not match Rebol, esp in common use of brackets [] and parens (). (2) Model termination more accurately as in rebol-syntax by using lookahead, but leave basic EBNF making it harder to play with e.g. GLR or Earley-based tools. (3) Ignore termination for the analysis, which leads to funny highly ambiguous stuff like 4d5e6 (2 tokens? 5?).
 
@earl I'm no stickler for 'Real' Rebol, at the same time some peculiarities are there for a reason.
 
12:13 AM
And @user1985346 - the same welcome and suggestion of a place you might start looking to get an idea of Rebol applies as well! I pretty much wrote the Rebol tag wiki on StackOverflow, it's got a bit of the "big picture" overview. Feel free to ask questions.
 
12:50 AM
Well, we lost our random visitors. No one can say I didn't try. Though Rebol does need a better homepage. Perhaps, like the downloads page, we can just say "what the hell" and draft it out?
 
1:03 AM
@earl Supposing we opted for (3) to go on with, we'd at least have a basis that would include Rebol content to date, and would presumably be able to use some of the tools you suggest. (I still wonder of the fail-path, but I don't have a good track record with fail-paths this week : )
@HostileFork What is the gold standard?
Something Ruby-like? I liked rebol.net at its most active, although it's not exactly a entry point.
 
I definitely think there has to be a go-direct-to-interactive-tutorial, right up front.
 
Or the 'Pow' page I pointed to before...
 
1:22 AM
@rgchris Well, the homepage needs to branch off to lots of things, but the "show and don't just tell" bit is important. Try Ruby's tutorial got a bit cluttery, I still think it should be inspired from something a bit more restrained like try clojure. But it would be nice if you could pick a language you were most familiar with, and it would try and guide the tutorial in a way you'd best understand and appreciate.
 
2:02 AM
Can someone who knows these things update this page
I think I made the mistake of installing as window 2003 admin so the directories don't match up
 
@GrahamChiu Hey Graham, welcome!
 
Yeah .. back again afte a couple of years hiatus
:)
 
Going to step out for a moment, but it wasn't clear from your IM about installing Git but getting MinGW...were you trying to get MinGW?
(As that's what the page talks about...)
 
I got that ...
But I just need to know what the directory paths are supposed to be
since mine don't match now and the cp command doesn't work
 
Note that among chat features are that you can edit what you say for 2 minutes. So if you hover up over that "afte a couple of years hiatus" you should see an arrow on the left. It has a drop down, you can choose "edit". It loads the text into the chat box at the bottom, you edit it there.
 
2:07 AM
I'll wait till you get back. windows is forcing an update on me
Good to know
 
C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home and the other paths match my WinXP setup.
(hi graham!)
 
@GrahamChiu Another thing is that unlike other chat mediums where the room moderator sets the "topic" and that's kind of a cue for the highlight of what's going on, you can "star" a post by someone besides yourself. That's a way of voting on recent notable things.
As your arrival is notable, I'll star your back again message...even with the typo uncorrected. :-)
 
Hi earl .. must be 3 am or thereabouts in europe
 
In addition to using @-style prompting to get people's attention with a beep, you can reply to a specific chat with the little reply arrow you get on the right when you hover over someone else's message. Then when you hover over one of those chats, it will highlight what its replying to.
 
so that's what was beeping at me!
@earl I've got C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home\Administrator\r3
C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home\Administrator\r3\make
C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home\Administrator\r3\src
 
2:15 AM
after the cp -r ../r3 ./ step, that's what's expected
 
ok, let's try again
 
well, the instructions are a bit of a mess anyway.
do you clone or download the zip?
at least this path is wrong: C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home\make\r3-make.exe -- correcting it
 
hmm. now make prep is working without r3-make.exe crashing on me saying this shouldn't happen
I installed some github windows client and then used their shell to clone
Ok, it built this time .. odd, wonder what I did wrong. I did reboot windows though :)
 
2:33 AM
So, can one make some changes in eg. prot-http.r or actions.r and just recompile it without a crash?
 
Yes. If you change prot-http.r, you'll have to re-run make prep as well.
 
well, I did that .. I added a refinement to 'read in actions.r, and then make prep and make but the new binary crashes on me
 
well, try a full rebuild then: make clean, make prep, make
(Updated the build instructions on HostileFork's Github wiki slightly. Not sure if they are much better, but well ...)
 
Yes, works :)
those images there are so small as to be worthless !
The MSYS basic system is installed when you install MinGW developer toolkit
 
@GrahamChiu If you change any function prototypes in the C files for Rebol inside those big asterisk'd blocks, it often means you have to make clean/make prep/make. The scripts do scan the C files and use some of the information.
Always do note the header of a file to see whether it is generated or not.
 
2:48 AM
I don't think I'll be changing any C files until I learn C :)
 
@GrahamChiu Also, something else has changed on StackOverflow...you don't have to mess with a gravatar account to set your picture. You can just upload one directly
And there have been some questions lately that you might want to throw an opinion in on at some point
 
Most of those questions are from you!
 
@GrahamChiu Yup. But hey, they're more interesting than the RebolTutorial questions. :-) The goal is institutional knowledge; it's good to put up the reasoning for things in a place where it can be seen, edited, linked...
You may not have noticed, but for linking a StackOverflow question the part after the number and the slash... the so-called "slug"... is ignored. It's merely for annotating the place you are putting the link. The number is what's used to look it up, and the slug will always redirect to reflect the current title.
So in source, rather than paste a lengthy link you can just put the short version next to the code that the post explains.
Interestingly, I've done it with the "answer your own question" at the time of asking...just as a way of recording knowledge...thinking I knew the answer, but then had earl or rgchris come tell me something better.
I really think that if people would just get out of AltME and the Google Groups and start creating knowledge "out here" it would be better, and more fun.
 
3:03 AM
Don't think black and white, there can be a nice and healthy co-existence.
 
there's way too much noise on Altme
 
(At least with the mailing list. AltME is more of a silo, unfortunately.)
 
to publish it
 
You'll quickly find it very noisy here as well. But fully in the open :)
 
Well, this chat room is noise, but that's why I say when something interesting is in the noise then that's the point to make a non-noisy wiki-refinable Q&A.
 
3:05 AM
how many users use this chatroom?
 
Three. :-)
 
pretty much everyone who is already on altme
 
Well, 3 regulars, 7 semi-regulars.
 
But the journey of a thousand messages begins with a single chat. Or something. :-)
 
ah well, I guess I can use this on my itouch ...
no altme for iOS yet
 
3:07 AM
@GrahamChiu But we have more spirited discussion here :)
 
@GrahamChiu And this is the only way you can talk to me. As with Red, I rebelled...
 
lol
@HostileFork I recall you responded on G+ :)
 
@GrahamChiu I kind of bowed out of social media also, I realized my personal experimenting with Facebook etc. had failed.
 
not very good use of one's time
looking at mark's adverts
 
@GrahamChiu They already were shady about how they organized the feeds in terms of what they wanted you to see ("top stories") vs. what your friends were writing. I had one too many occasion where I'd go look at a friend's page and see a bunch of posts that I hadn't been getting despite dutifully trying to read all the posts sequentially (there's no read/unread status of course, because no one invented that idea)
And now they want to use their middleman status to charge you to send messages. Ah, the future.
That stuff bugs me more than the privacy issue, I'm not terribly private.
 
3:14 AM
"discourage spammers" lol
 
But anyway, I'd have forgiven it all if it had led to some kind of great outcome...but the value wasn't there. It's like selling your soul and not even getting the bikini models for your trouble. Forget that. I'd rather write code.
 
3:32 AM
sometimes I get the feeling life is just too complicated in this age
 
@GrahamChiu "Verbum sapienti: quo plus habent, eo plus cupiunt. Post nubila, Phoebus. Iternum."
"A word to the wise: the more [people] have, the more they want. After the clouds, the Sun."
(Enya's Cursum Perficio, translated. :-P)
@earl Any thoughts on that graying of the table I posted? I do think it comes off pretty nice.
 
@HostileFork Didn't like it at first sight, will look at it a bit longer tomorrow.
If the tables get larger, I might actually even like it without further staring :)
 
did you add a reflection to your logo?
Or shadow
 
But at the moment, I think I prefer the clean and rather minimalistic (some might say boring) look. But again, I'll give it some more staring :)
 
@earl Well, try staring at it with FG: #666 and BG: #F8F8F8 then. I do feel that there's a grouping issue with the word Platform being in a certain bold color and style and then going down the list...it looks like a list of four items instead of 3
This way, that style is reserved pretty much only for the mention of a platform
@GrahamChiu The original drawing I made was in Google Sketchup. I had someone load it up and render it for me and he made it thicker. Myself I don't have the software to do that, so I really just got the render like this
It was stretched funny and the lighting sort of wound up producing this foggy greyness on the far bracket. Especially bad on LCDs at funny angles. So I hacked on it in photoshop until I got something that looked a bit better. Not a re-render, just me pushing pixels around.
Like I said, I'd really rather someone take this on who does this sort of thing a lot. I mean, there are lots of career icon designers...I'm not one of them.
But I did remove the shadowing and I didn't like it as much for the image on the downloads page, at least. So I left it.
@earl Also think what words you want to pop on the page. The platforms popping is important, it is the "wall of binaries" after all. If you've got "Platform", "Commit", "Build Date (UTC), "Download", and "Size" all ahead of the platforms, it isn't as striking how many platforms there are (will be)
 
4:43 AM
Grrr. I managed to compile the r3 on my ec2 windows micro instance I setup but can't ssh into it to get the file out :(
 
 
2 hours later…
6:47 AM
Well, I managed to connect afterall. My ssh server was restricted to local network only due to my clicking on that option inadvertently. r3gui.com.s3.amazonaws.com/scripts/r3.exe with read/args enabled
 
 
3 hours later…
9:45 AM
I updated that wiki page to explain how to add a scheme to the binary.
Couldn't get that wiki to show the commands as a code block :(
 
 
1 hour later…
11:14 AM
@GrahamChiu I moved your notes to a separate page, and fixed the commands formatting:
 
 
3 hours later…
dt2
2:02 PM
Does someone know how to get the android-source from Cyphre? I managed once to use the embedded browser. Thought i try a ajax-style api, but with rebol embedded and native calls, or pipes.
 
@dt2 The Android source adaptations have so far not been released. But you can surely drop him a mail and ask :)
 
dt2
Where do i find him?
Carls blog does not show emails :)
 
dt2
2:17 PM
Regarding rebolsource.net , could there be builds with selected community patches? At least 'thru. Maybe call it the Saphirion Edition :) Are you working with them? Also Cypres android could be in experimental?
How do i set up the system with which you compiled the kodingen-binary? Is a vm for that hard?
 
2:28 PM
@GrahamChiu GitHub Wiki uses same markup as StackOverflow, you can indent with four spaces or use backticks to get inline code
 
2:48 PM
@dt2 The Kodingen binary was built on a standard Debian Squeeze system, IIRC.
@dt2 Build with community patches: yes, if merge activity doesn't resume soon, we'll certainly get that started.
 
3:40 PM
@earl Certainly Carl must agree (?) that it's too long between merging patches. Can't a voting consortium be established, people he trusts more or less, and if he doesn't report in after a week of a patch being submission then if X out of N voters said "yes" it gets merged in by someone with collaborator access?
 
4:22 PM
There was this part where @earl said that porting Red to R3 was non-trivial. And you know what? That turns out to be true.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:36 PM
Okay, here's some more of that Pick-on-Object code: line 56 in virtual-struct.r
I am wondering if in Rebol 3, is there a "much easier way" of doing whatever this is doing? Is this a CONSTRUCT/WITH type scenario? This kind of thing always trips me up.
Hm, it's using the order of declaration in the spec to fill with untagged data based on that order.
Input spec:

make object! [
__vs-type: struct!
__vs-spec: [
tag [integer!]
val [integer!]
]
tag: none
val: none
]
Data: [11 12]
Output result:

make object! [
__vs-type: struct!
__vs-spec: [
tag [integer!]
val [integer!]
]
tag: 11
val: 12
]
But R3 does not seem to preserve the ordering for "words-of" that you had in the declaration, so the way it's written won't work.
Hm, I take that back. It does seem to preserve the order. I swear I saw it not doing so.
 
6:44 PM
@HostileFork I tried that .. 4 spaces indentation and all I got was a single line rendered instead of a code block. Odd.
 
@GrahamChiu Looks like only 3 spaces from the diff... (three spaces after the minus sign)
Good news and bad news. Good news is, I got the Red/System hello.reds to produce a binary file output from the same codebase for both R2 and R3, and it runs to completion. Bad news is...the binary is defective and won't run. (But at least the product is bad in both builds, which gives a better chance of narrowing down the bug by selectively turning on and off the changes.)
Still stuck on the not-descending-into-parentheses-in-parse on the Red-to-Red/System preprocessor.
 
7:00 PM
@HostileFork which problem was that, again :) ?
 
@earl This one, regarding line-rule and how R3 doesn't descend into the parentheses and then tries to use new-line on parens (which looks like it should be an implemented feature, as they seem to store newline flags, but good that it's not in this case because it makes the difference more obvious)
Note that I'm using your WHILE suggestion instead of SOME, and the other change is that I've modified [INTO rule] to become [b: any-block! :b INTO rule]
 
Looks like have to use shift-enter to get a new line
 
@GrahamChiu (Shift-enter for newline, if you're trying that.) Also, if you paste multi-line input into chat, by design it will not run markup on it... so your bold and code backticks and such won't be interpreted.
 
So, no tabs huh? and no indentation
Sucks
:)
 
We've been discussing the relative incompatibility of tabbing and web-reality, in terms of whether the Rebol codebase should switch to spaces instead of tabs. In web text boxes, and on the web in general, tabs are kind of a nuisance.
You can
    indent with
        spaces if you want
III
III
III
III
(note the "fixed font" option that appears when you have multi line input, although other markup is unavailable...)
 
7:13 PM
hey, you can have pictures! :)
 
@GrahamChiu Yup, a link to an image on a line by itself will be previewed (and refreshed from source when people refresh the page, or go bad if the link goes bad). If you use the "upload" button then the picture is hosted and won't change, and AFAIK there's no way to delete it or take it down.
 
4x the amount of effort to use spaces instead of tabs. Isn't that why we have detab ?
 
@GrahamChiu Get a proper editor, then :)
 
I'm using this writing space as an editor
But yeah, I guess that's why the github sources look incorrectly formatted due to tabs
 
Ah, sorry. For the in-browser chat text area, a "proper editor" really is hardly an option :)
 
7:24 PM
So @HostileFork, you have Red binaries now being output from R3. So, just a parse issue to fix to have correct binaries?
@earl, yes, I knew that that they were unpublished .. just trying to get a timeframe :0
 
@GrahamChiu I have Red/System binaries with some corruption that I imagine I will be able to find. But my imagination sometimes gets ahead of me. I'm less confident that this parse issue is the last issue with the main Red compiler, but it's fairly deep into the process on line 567 of a later file after having handled others fine. Basically, it's the first time it's hit a paren that spanned multiple lines. But it has run through and generated Red/System code for a bunch of other files.
 
@GrahamChiu 2-3 months, would be my guess. Maybe 5.
(But I'm definitely not speaking for either Cyphre or Saphirion in this regard.)
 
Of course there's no obligation on their part to publish
Hmm. I thought R3 parse was supposed to be more featured than R2's
 
@GrahamChiu It is, just different, and with different bugs.
 
And it is indeed more feature-rich.
@GrahamChiu Graham, I can honestly say that they absolutely intend to publish.
 
7:30 PM
Well, I'm not an Android user so I don't have a vested interest
 
@GrahamChiu Also, I backed off changing the hash! instances to use hash! in R2 and map! in R3 because that turned out to be a can of worms. The good news from opening the can of worms is that we know better how many worms are in the can, and we can front-run the necessary fixes before trying that commit. But for the moment I'm using just block! in R3 where hash! is being used under R2. It's not performing that much worse, and actually the whole thing seems a bit faster in R3.
 
In the saphiron binary I see a tls scheme?
Is there anyone working on bringing ssl to r3?
Pretty much most of what I want to do needs secure protocols :(
 
@GrahamChiu I looked into a stopgap strategy, of trying to make it possible to build R3 against OpenSSL libs proper instead of the age-old excerpts that were taken a while ago. See my preliminary notes on "How Rebol Borrows Code"
I changed the function prototoypes/interfaces on the subset of functions that Rebol uses to match the ones exported by the latest OpenSSL, which is a start for that idea.
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, Cyphre has written a TLS scheme, basically in pure Rebol (a few crypto primitives come from an extension).
So unless you absolutely need SSL over TLS, that should already get you quite far.
 
gmail uses tls .. so should be able to read gmail??
 
7:43 PM
Note: New git trick (for me)...add all but one modified file to staging area, stash with the -k option , unstage files. Iterate until code works again. Then start unstashing.
Well, you can do files in groups, that being the advantage over just copying them to a backup directory. It's a little more structured.
 
@GrahamChiu In principle, sure. SMTPS, HTTPS, POP3S, IMAPS, ... should all be possible to get working.
 
@earl Hey, wait. I said --keep-index and it indeed did, but the stash it created seems to contain all the changes (including the "kept index ones" not just to the one file that was reverted). :-/ Is that normal?
Like, I expect to see only the unstaged files in that stash...not the unstaged ones AND the staged ones.
 
8:02 PM
Well, how do you look what's inside the stash?
 
I'm using SourceTree on OS/X. It lists the stashes, and you can click on them and see their contents.
 
8:17 PM
I get the same results whether I use their UI (a checkbox for "keep staged changes") or the command line (--keep-index)
 
8:43 PM
Well, in any case, Red/System problem is narrowed down...if I revert ELF.r and virtual-structs.r, I get a working binary again when run with R2. So time to go over those changes with a fine-toothed comb...it's not a whole lot of delta to look at, relatively speaking.
 
ELF.r!
/me ducks
 
@earl got something against elves? :-)
 
Nope. But I wrote it :)
 
Ah, missed something. I knew that WORDS-OF didn't include 'self, but I didn't notice a secondary implication of that.
Easy fix on the virtual-structs.r then.
Then on to your ELF. :-)
So I don't know that I feel particularly compelled to go through all the emitters...this is supposed to be "experimental R3 support that doesn't break R2" so do you think a good first pull request for discussion would be ELF only, hammer that out, and then once that's done retrofit the other targets accordingly?
I hope you say yes, because that's what I want to do. :)
 
Sounds like a good approach, yes.
The binary format emitters have nothing in common anyway, so ...
Ah, self-modifying parse rules. Forgive me ...
 
8:54 PM
@earl Well, at least the good news is that the last Red/System problem I'm having is in a file you can explain. :-) I'm doing process of elimination. There's no git bisect to pick groups of related changes, though...
Incidentally, side topic: what do you do that allows you to sit around and mess with esoteric Rebol all day? :-)
(I decided to sell a nice property and instead live in a teeny apartment so I can do what I feel like, and I live relatively cheep. So I don't have to work much on "real" things. Just a little here and there if it comes up.)
I have wondered about my sanity regarding the time spent on this stuff, though.
Aren't there greater causes? I have some pretty large projects sitting around of my own, actually.
After seeing the Rebol open source release, I am more inclined to release my own "magnum opus" as open source even though it is incomplete.
But if I did, I'd be taking patches every day if people offered them. :-/
But it's C++11 stuff, applied to multi-threaded projectional editing systems in desktop software, and the only people who tend to care about this are engineering firms who would not like my licensing rules.
It would be released to a resounding...*thud*. But at least I could say I did it.
@earl Okay, well one ELF change I made was to that commands table.
For reasons I'd have to dig back up, I wanted ["rx" skip (base-address)] to become [["rx" skip] (base-address)] and I look it up with SELECT/ONLY instead of SELECT.
Trying to remember why I did that...it wasn't just for map! compatibility because this is not addressing that.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:42 PM
I think it's reasonable to question everyone's sanity working on Rebol :)
2
was that a parser bug? the first element was an op, and the second a block
 
@GrahamChiu Reply-to-message is your friend. :-) What are you referencing?
 
11:05 PM
No idea
I must have linked to a message where you report a parse bug
parse [ <= [<...>] ] or something from ram
 
@GrahamChiu Oh, it was just R2 prioritizing tag over block. [<] foo [>] interpreted as a block containing the single element <] foo [>.
 
I'm wondering whether it is better for the make process to scan files in directories rather then explicitly have them named in the scripts. So, if you were to add protocols to mezz/ the file scan would pick them up and build them automatically. Having to name them seems a maintenance issue
 

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