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4:34 AM
So I gather in R3 you only get empty? if the bitset is make bitset! #{} and not make bitset! #{00} etc. The OR operation apparently creates a new bitset with the size dropped down to the minimum needed to hold the intersection, hence reducing longer bitsets to just #{}.
But still...is it a bug, or by design?
 
 
6 hours later…
10:38 AM
So you still have to remember to type /ALL on PARSE...the agreement to drop this refinement and make it the default behavior happened a long time ago. I hope that in the new development culture these kinds of decisions are allowed to happen rapidly...
 
 
2 hours later…
12:49 PM
I sure have not been doing much in the way of "things you get reputation score for" on StackOverflow lately. I'm more like Statler and Waldorf and heckling in the comments.
 
1:01 PM
Heya @earl, thanks for adding the answer. I was going to bug Chris to update his, but it's nice to have more people in the mix.
Makes us look more popular. :)
Looks like you need a gravatar, also: en.gravatar.com
 
 
2 hours later…
2:33 PM
i have an avatar, but somehow SO has failed to pick it up for years
probably because of how i login, well ...
let's try re-saving the prefs :)
 
Are you using OpenID or a StackExchange account?
 
openid
but with the updated prefs, SO picked up my avatar. so i guess chat will do so as well, soon
 
2:55 PM
Hm, it changed from a blue random waffle to a green random waffle. It may take time for chat to realize that you are apparently a fan of Heaven (if TinEye has it right?)
 
tineye never fails :)
i guess it will refresh eventually
 
It often does, and in fact Google images does a better job usually... they don't really expose the functionality very well, but if you search for an image URL it says "are you looking for images similar to [XXX].JPG"
The results are usually better than TinEye.
 
you can paste urls at images.google.com
 
Yes, but as I say it's not very discoverable. Also: it doesn't assume you want to search by image, you have to do a second click (uh, why?)
Story on my fork: I drew it as the favicon for my site, and then I thought: well, that's pretty much how I feel. Why not just scale that up? :-)
 
heh, it sure fits the username :)
well, maybe more of an angry fork, than a particularly hostile one
 
3:06 PM
I saw the term gaining prominence and thought "hey, wonder if that's taken", and it wasn't. "Hostile fork" continues to be used as open source gets more contentious.
One must wonder: will there be a "hostile fork" of Rebol? Will Carl retain control of the checkins or will someone else rise to be the new "shot-caller" as mindshare shifts to someone else...?
It's interesting to look, for instance, at the question of whether continued Amiga support or PowerPC support is worth the investment. Kind of cool to point out those options are available...yet still...how much does it hold the development back for platforms no one uses?
 
i hope that there will be forks, though i don't think that they'll be particularly hostile (if they happen at all). however, if parallel development streams occur, and one becomes rather active, the only possibility for mainline to stay relevant is to resume a basic level of activity as well.
 
I'm a C++11 believer. I think raw C is error prone and lacks the toolset to attack recurring bugs with the ability to say "if we write it this way, we lose no performance and that bug will never happen again"
But there's no C++11 compiler for Amiga, and no one is going to make one anytime soon.
 
well, i guess you'll want to feature-creep c++11 into the r3 codebase then.
 
Wouldn't be accepted. While apparently Carl uses C++ style comments, he still does the old-school "declarations at scope-level only" style...very classic stuff, for compatibility with odd platforms with old C compilers.
My enthusiasm has had a bit of a toll taken on it by this delay. I had time before but right now my time is not so free to work with Rebol. Should the source be released tomorrow, I might not be able to even look at it for a week or so.
(Well, I'd look at it.)
 
Better adjust your expectations to more "delays", then :)
As you should be well aware, things move slowly in REBOL-land, and Carl's continued monthly resurfacings are actually quite an improvement when compared to the past.
 
3:20 PM
I think things can go faster. I do wonder how many Rebol-interested people are the sort who work on interpreters or write C, etc...but in a sense, that doesn't matter; having source available affects people whether they themselves know the language or not.
Had a meeting of my C/C++ group yesterday: meetup.com/The-Austin-C-C-Meetup-Group/events/88265542
Did a little Rebol demo, talked about the open sourcing (and being annoyed with the timeline), argued with people over why trends in industry and academia had turned away from LISP-derived languages...
 
Thinks certainly can go faster in general, but I see nothing that leads me to expect enormous changes compared to how fast things have gone around RT Rebol in the past few years.
I currently believe that post-Christmas may be an early release date, and post-New Year may be a more realistic one.
I wouldn't be disappointed with having access to the sources much earlier, though :)
@HostileFork Imo, Academia, and especially PLT, still has Scheme going strong.
 
I will be the broken record that I am and say that Rebol will find its niche when people start developing full-on replacements for some existing popular thing... give a small, clear executable that does everything something people rely on now but clearer, tinier.
Work on more platforms, show people what the language can do... but be an apples-for-apples substitute.
Fewer bytes, clearer code, functional equivalence.
 
That matches my belief. With more activity, Rebol could have filled quite a few such niches in the past.
 
The moment Rebol people acknowledge the worthiness of this, that will spark a fire. (If, and only if, it's also open source.)
I like the idea of these things being designed cleverly, so there's a translation layer from the "gross input" of the legacy (some kind of YAML or XML or whatever command-line garbage) into a Rebol format input, and then the engine runs on the Rebol input.
You say "It's X bytes! But it would be X-Y bytes if you were willing to change your input files into Rebol-parseable format...then you don't need input-translate.rebol" etc.
I'm baffled by the lack of such artifacts, I see so many candidates. I'd have written them except for the fact that a proprietary closed-source tool shuts people down from hearing anything you might say after that.
(For reasonable reasons, in my opinion.)
I was all ready to go with the "Reblis" thing when I thought I'd have source to tinker with and get the key/value store performance up: metaeducation.com/media/shared/reblis/reblis-commands.rebol
A month and a half later, I'm about to start another contract...won't have time.
Frustrating. :-/
 
3:36 PM
That's why I won't get my hopes up too high until the very moment I actually have the sources in hand.
I really had to restrain myself to not invest too much time towards preparing for the "any day now" open sourcing.
 
I don't think Carl is insincere about this, but like you say, his perspective is such where time is not of the essence. It might well not be until after New Year, which seems insane to the audience but within his view there are different priority rules...and the audience is not the decider.
 
No Carl is certainly not insincere, that's the point. He has a different perception of time, than many of us. A pity, yes, but anyone well familiar with Rebol's history expecting otherwise certainly cannot blame Carl.
 
I met him at a party and he said his reason for not open sourcing was in no way driven by finances, but that Rebol was "his art". And in his view, open sourcing would open it to corruption.
I'm empathetic but I guess I try and make the point that PHP (or whatever) is very much worse than a corrupt Rebol...the cat is out of the bag, people are writing programs and you can either embrace the evolution or let your ideas wind up irrelevant.
 
Good point. In the past, between irrelevance and corruption, Carl seemed to prefer the former.
That's what has slowly been changing, over the last decade.
 
I said the same thing about Unicode localization for the language... Rebol can handle it if APPEND or whatever gets localized and people are programming entirely in their native character sets
I was resisted by people who said it would fragment the libraries
 
3:44 PM
That's a different story, I'd say :)
 
But Jerry Tsai apparently has sold 10,000 copies of a Rebol3 book in China and Taiwan. A Rebol 3 book selling 10K copies, anywhere, shows that there is potential.
Rebol is still a "programming in the small" system, for now. The most important thing is the ideas. Giving children in China or wherever a version of the tool that is fluid and sensible to them is powerful, regardless of whether their code can be directly copied and pasted in that charset somewhere else.
Of course, my bias is based on my research background...to me, programs are graphs, not text.
 
@HostileFork Yes, but the needs for an educational and a professional system can be quite distinct. So I don't think that a language the firmly decides which targets it wants to cater to can be particularly good for either.
So yes, if you decide that you primarily want to be an educational system, maybe even aimed at Children, then a "localised language" might be a good idea. For a professional system, not so much.
 
I don't think "academic" and "useful" (or "professional") are antonyms. I envisioned a "modeling clay" marketing concept...about uniformity of substrate: hostilefork.com/2008/09/05/…
Making that actually is what led to my logo idea: rebol.net/w/images/c/cc/Fork-logo-3d-draft.png
 
Not antonyms, but different target areas.
I don't believe in one-size-fits-all, especially not in programming languages.
 
Well, to me Rebol is neat because while I consider it to be a bit of a toy...it (often, but not always) demonstrates clarity which makes it far more suitable than the other broken-and-dangerous-razor-blade-toys that are given to people under the pretense of programming.
 
3:56 PM
Heh, among the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Luckily, there are other nice toys as well.
 
I'm a big C++11 fan, it's fun to geek out over. Just let me know when Valve ports Portal 2 to Rebol, etc.
In the interim, I'm just concerned about all this godawful web code that tries to create domain-specific template languages, and it's just fail after fail after fail.
 
I think Valve choosing Rebol for Potal 2 would be as stupid as recommending PHP as a first thing to learn for programming newcomers or using C++ for shell scripting.
 
Ever seen boost::filesystem? It's... well, it's... boost.org/doc/libs/1_52_0/libs/filesystem/doc/index.htm
It's not really C++'s fault it's not good for shell scripts. It could be, but all the file operations are "wrappers" and there's platform-specific nuances. If everyone had agreed on more ahead of time, it would be just fine.
But C++ winds up in this position as second-class lowest-common-denominator citizen in terms of platform calls.
Anyway, gotta run. Thanks for the chat, and I hope the StackOverflow Zeitgeist catches on with more in the Rebol community.
Your gravatar may refresh if you log out and then back in. :-)
 
4:12 PM
I actually know boost::filesystem, yes :)
Still, C++, fundamentally is just too verbose for a shell language.
(When I say shell scripting, that includes ad-hoc command-line shell scripts and day to day shell usage just as well.)
You certainly can "dialect" a lot of that away, but I still think that it's better to sometimes accept fundamental differences and make things that are particularly good for one target area, than bend a more general thing to this target area.
 

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