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12:01 AM
I can make a blacklist/whitelist for stuff outside the ast
and err on nagging
 
why would you want to expend your valuable time & energy on something that's already covered?
 
:)
it is an interesting challenge
but the result is probably best deleted
 
well if you need a challenge for your personal satisfaction - sure
but if its to solve a problem, you're spending your energy in the wrong place
 
+1
but there is always the chance to learn stuff
 
indeed but this will grant you learning AST stuff - how beneficial is that for you right now or in near future vs the energy you'll spend on the chance you get to learn something useful
(this isn't something about this project only - its kinda how I approach all problem solving)
I can learn something awesome but if it's not going to serve me in near future.. chances are by the time i can actually use it.. i would have forgotten it or at least no as razor sharp as i should be
and as such that'd be energy & time wasted
its partly why i've not pursued f# aggressively - its a challenge - i'll learn something cool.. but can i put it into practice immediately? until recently the answers been no
 
12:19 AM
roslyn is pretty useful ime
@Maverik making reed happy should be reason enough :)
 
with Reed's Gjallarhorn release - stars have sort of aligned - i'm intrigued by his work and things have adjusted around me in a way that lets me make some aggressive changes to codebase
 
@maverik To be fair, learning F# will make your C# development much better
 
perhaps.. but it'll still need me to expend effort & time to learn it properly in first place - that isn't a few days task.. it'll take me at least a few months to really get a solid grip on f#
and if i can't practice it early on, i'll lose the knowledge and my motivation will take a swift dive not just in f# but c# projects as well
 
true (though I suspect it'll take a lot less time than you expect - so far, all of the devs that I've hired have picked it up in a matter of days )
 
no no - you misunderstand me sorry
i already have picked it up at a basic level over this weekend
but it's like mvvm - i know the keywords.. i can write the functions
i've already got enough practice from hardcore linq statements to even pulls some of functional stuff off -- but am i reallyyy thinking functional yet? no
thats going to take time and experience.. no shortcut there
i'll make mistakes - write code that'll make folks cringe who know f#
i'm pretty sure your hired devs aren't spitting out the most beautiful elegant code
and i'm ocd about that - i can't let it be just functional - it does what you asked.. no it has to have artistic value as well
people should be able to twist it in ways I didn't anticipate and it should still hold it's own or at least gracefully degrade
i can't do that in f# just by reading tutorials
I'm considering the pluralsight f# courses - there seems to be 11 of them with some redundancy so probably more like 6-7 that may be helpful
 
12:26 AM
some are better than others, there, too
but honestly, just jumping in and using it is probably best
 
oh yea for sure
i'm not a theory based developer - i prefer to dive in (quite often straight at the deep end).. i need hands on experience to learn
but after all of that said and done - i'm fairly certain i'll make the f# jump sooner rather than later now
i can feel it.. it's time! The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air
 
😃
that being said, if you've got a nice little UI project, Gjallarhorn is worth making the jump for IMO - it's completely making me rethink how UI should be approached for desktop
ie: MVVM is crap 😉
 
1:15 AM
@ReedCopsey the level you're at - it might make sense - it is also why i've decided to pick f# just to be able to give gjallarhorn a fair shot but mvvm will still stay the defacto starting point for all beginner i think :)
 
shrug that's only true until something better becomes popularized
granted, I expect that to be a long time off - it's tough to think outside of it without thinking functionally
but things like React, Elm,etc are helping move the industry the right direction
 
agreed
 
honestly, had I written gjallarhorn in C#, I think it'd probably get a lot more traction - but some of the things I want to do with it just won't work in C# 😋
 
but still wpf is tough as it is without directing people towards just reactive programming even
no reason why there can't be a c# binding.. its merely going to be a thin wrapper that makes it look more like imperative api i guess?
 
well, some of what I want to do relies on statically resolved type parameters and inlining to work
there's no equivalent in C#
right now, everything I'm doing could be done via a C# wrapper or have been written in C#, though
but usability would be a pain - just too damn tough to make immutable data in C# :(
 
 
7 hours later…
8:41 AM
morning
 
 
2 hours later…
11:06 AM
morning
 
 
2 hours later…
12:55 PM
Good morning, all
 
1:17 PM
Glasses just broke in half, right in the middle
 
Morning
 
Hi Maveriik
Feeling better?
 
Silver lining: time for tiger eyed lenses :)
 
Hehehe
 
yes thank you. runny nose has dried up
i just pictured you in cheetara costume!
 
1:19 PM
:D
ThunderCats was one of my fave shows
 
1:36 PM
I was more a Bionic Six kid - i saw its reruns six times in a row and didn't get bored :)
it was really a coincidence kinda thing - i moved around a lot as a kid while my dad moved cities from project to project and coincidently bionic six was just starting to air on the local tv - I never understood how was it possible to have that coincidence six times in a row
 
@Alex pfffffffft. Mask + Transformers
 
in the Mask category, Dexter was my favourite
 
Was he the one who rode the green motorcycle?
 
also loved "The real adventures of Jonny Quest"
the whole avatar in vr world was amazing
Dexter - no the scientist kid with a blonde sister
 
I am seeing the strangest thing...
When I change the height of my window, I get this black area, where the window used to be.
The second that I move the window, it's gone
 
1:43 PM
refresh artifact
 
Yeah, already trying
this.UpdateLayout();
this.InvalidateVisual();
Any other ideas?
 
either a bug with app's drawing or your video card driver's messed
you don't normally need to force redraws
 
@LynnCrumbling "Transformers... robots rule the sky!"
 
Robots in disguise?
 
Oh
Yeah
 
1:45 PM
:)
 
Hehehe
Misheard lyrics
"There's a bathroom on the right"
 
mondegreens
For YEARS, I thought that was Madonna was saying (in "Ray of Light"):
"and I feel, Like a DISCO BALL, ..."
My Wife at one point: "WHAT ARE YOU SINGING??"
"I dunno, she feels like a disco ball."
"NO, SHE FEELS LIKE SHE JUST GOT HOME."
Me: -1
 
xD
I've played track a fair bit in my youth :D
well i played that entire album more times than i can remember
then i discovered enigma and i was like whoa! what is dis voodoo! must.. have..
/zombiemode on
 
@LynnCrumbling Did your buddy get the MVC stuff working?
 
2:01 PM
I was out yesterday, and haven't see him yet this morning... I'll see him around 10:15
 
2:24 PM
The Cross of Changes was an excellent album... I listened to it all throughout college
 
don't think i had that album
i got the Le roi est mort, viva le roi
 
vive
:p
 
oh ok :)
 
2:39 PM
seriously just start hacking mav, you're overthinking it
(F#)
 
yea i picked up the context from statement :)
it's buzzing in my head - i had trouble sleeping last night.. too much random f# in my head
 
:)
 
can i use types in f# before they're declared?
or the order matters like xaml top to bottom
 
order matters I think
 
so it wasn't a good question? :D
 
2:44 PM
I tend to lack confidence
don't like to be wrong
 
its a good quality to have :)
 
too much of anything is too much
 
like too much piety? too much kindness? too much greatness? :D
 
making mistakes is important
 
A question... where do you guys download the latest SQL Server Mgmt Studio?
 
2:53 PM
(from MSDN Subscriptions...) <grin>
 
Looking for it, but with the new look they've given the site, it's hard to find it
Searched on management studio, got zip back
 
It'll probably be called SQL Server Client Tools
 
Oh, let me try that. Thanks
 
I think I've always just installed it via the SQL Server installer, and only check the client tools option (not the server engine)
 
Thinking our subscription level here limits what we can get from MSDN
I can download SQL Server 2016 Developer but it won't let me even bring the installer up -- it requires Win 8+
I'm on Win7
 
3:10 PM
SQL Server 2016 Developer should be a winner.
One of the options when you d/l that should let you install the client data tools
(which includes ssms)
 
3:24 PM
That version requires Win8 and up
I'm thinking of downloading a Win10 from MSDN and installing it on a VM
Which version of Win10, though
 
management studio does come on it own
you shouldn't need a subscription for it
 
Dang, you beat me to it :)
Feel like that wasn't the case. You had to download it from MSDN at some point in the past.
 
@Maverik If you're not terribly familiar with the cross of changes album, can I suggest Silent Warrior?
..although, really the whole album is excellent (including the title song, "Cross of Changes", and "Return to Innocence")
 
pretty sure i've heard that one but always happy to listen again
Return to innocence was a pretty nice track too
 
4:34 PM
@Maverik order matters... file order even matters
you can make 2 types that use each other vIA and , but it's something to avoid
most people see it as a feature once they get used to it... very difficult to make cyclic dependencies, so you are forced into better design choices
 
thanks Reed
 
Will more RAM improve load times for VS?
 
How much RAM are you running now?
 
8gb
Right now waiting on VS to come up...
4 mins and counting
 
that's abnormal
 
4:48 PM
Two things will help, first, I'd say yes to more RAM. I run 16. Second, and possibly more important to speed, use an SSD
but @milleniumbug is right, 4 mins is abnormal
even at 8gb and a standard hdd
I've had that type of issue before with VS and it was a problem with one of my plugins
 
6 mins and counting...
Yeah, this ain't normal
 
once started, disable any extensions you can and then try restarting VS
 
Under Tools > Ext. ?
 
Ya
Tools > Extensions and Updates
 
To add to the fun, my network went out. Rebooted and it was okay again.
 
4:51 PM
Windows 10?
 
7
 
Not sure then. The Win 7 network drivers seemed rock solid. 10's however, have caused me major headaches
 
Trying again. Killed it and now starting it again
Wondering if I need to clear the temp folder
 
Did you have any extensions to disable?
 
@Alex imho it won't - VS will likely crash way before it can actually use 8gb even (unless you have no free ram at all because of other factos)
 
4:54 PM
Yeah, it's now at 4.7Gb
 
surprising
 
Total mem usage, that is
 
devenv should have crashed at 3.9 being a 32gb process
 
Not VS :)
 
oh
 
4:55 PM
I'm going to crash it again... it's stuck at the logo screen
Bring it up in safe mode
 
5:54 PM
yay starting new wpf project
install-package PropertyChanged.Fody
 
Signals dude.. signals!
#Gjllarhorn
 
... i mean, Signals? : youtube.com/watch?v=A8jSdgT3Drc
 
low resolution leds kevin :(
let x = Signals.create 1
 
signals are definitely the way to go 😜
forget that fody crap!
 
6:10 PM
lol
i tried to find an example
but all i see is F#
too scary for me
 
Even in safe mode, VS is just refusing to come all the way up
 
bah. it'd take a couple of days, then it'd be easy
 
It opens, then just says Not responding at the top
 
of you use linq, signals are easy
devenv /restsettings
 
Does that permanently reset the settings?
 
6:16 PM
yup
 
Oh
In safe mode, how do you disable extensions? Or can you only uninstall them?
Yeah, the only option is uninstall
 
6:34 PM
Never been so happy just to see VS load my solution!
 
:)
 
Can't wait to try VS 2017 with its self repair tool
 
6:51 PM
Any idea why, if I am creating a DoubleAnimation to move a FrameworkElement, it would be moving the element relative to its current position in the parent panel instead of from 0,0?
 
@Julien F# is amazing
 
A bit tought to understand some concepts, but it is so easy and beautiful
I feel like a popstar like
 
must be drinking that red bull again
 
Yep, gotta love them redbull
I rather drink Monster than Redbull, I really enjoy some sweet drinks
 
7:12 PM
ever since i saw the picture of the rat in the can of monster, i started drinking a lot less lol
 
Meh, I've seen a cockroach eating my slice of pizza and I threw the bug away and ate the pizza :p
 
-_-
 
And already drank beer with a pidgeon
Well, times were tough back then
The beer was just because I was already a bit drunk
 
haha understandable
 
i just realised - i can pester Master Andre even for my f# noobness!
 
7:19 PM
Yeah, please. I still need to learn a lot. So that would make me study more too :)
And if anything happens, we can blame Reed :X
 
:)
well i'm day 1 noob right now - doubt i can throw something complicated your way just yet
 
7:54 PM
I really feel like C# should add a better way to handle backing fields for properties. Some way so I don't have to make a ton of backing fields which only job is to hold a value for the property.
I guess it's possible they add something to address it. The recent changes to out are great.
 
auto-properties not enough?
 
doesn't work if you're doing INPC
 
Not when you need a bit of logic like with INPC.
 
sure
I think half of the problem would be solved if C# compiler allowed you to reference the generated field somehow in non-automatic properties
like, for a property named X, a private X_ field would be generated if it's not already declared and it's referenced inside the get or set body
 
I'm not sure non-auto-properties generate any backing fields. But that's what I'd do aswell. Just give access to a backing field inside properties, and only add it to the output if it's used. No cost and you get nicer usage.
Looks like we have the same idea. :)
 
8:01 PM
@WilliamMariager They do, but the entire point is to use them when you don't want to see the backing info
but even if you had backing field access, it wouldn't solve the problem
because the extra info needs to happen in the setter
which all of a sudden means it's not auto
 
you can set them with reflection
it is evil though, useful in tests
 
now - if there was a way to delegate a property to another property on a different instance... that'd open up a lot of interesting options
 
I sometimes do it when deserializing
 
something like int Foo { get; set; } => this.foo.Value; or something
 
@ReedCopsey what does that mean?
 
8:03 PM
say you could write int Foo { get; set; } => this.foo.Value;, and that unwrapped to:
 
I think I get it
 
int Foo
{
    get { return this.foo.Value; }
    set { this.foo.Value = value; }
}
that'd open up a whole world of possibilities
 
I dislike code like that with a passion
different thing if it was generated
 
that's how most of my MVVM libraries work :p
 
especially if it juggles inpc also
manually writing it is noise and source f bugs
 
8:05 PM
(that's F#, but I have internal C# libs that work that same way)
 
I usually expose Foo instead
unrelated what do you think about:
public ICommand FooCommand { get; } <= new RelayCommand(SomeInstanceMethod);
 
<= ?
 
where the reverse arrow would mean it would be run after the ctor
 
ie: run every access?
 
related to the lazy command discussion
@ReedCopsey no, run once after the ctor
 
8:07 PM
don't like it
 
@ReedCopsey reminded me of a "bidirectional lambda": x => x <= x
:)
 
@ReedCopsey why?
 
because there's nothing in the CLR that provides a notion of "post constructor"
 
I think something like that would be better handled with something like LazyAttribute and then the compiler fixes it, rather than being core syntax.
 
it'd have to be part of the constructor, probably - but then you get issues with inheritance, etc
just don't make it lazy
there's no advantage to it being lazy anyways
 
8:09 PM
In recursion there is.
Although it might be solvable in other ways, just the first that pops to mind.
 
@WilliamMariager Not really related to recursion
 
the advantage I see is that it would be nice to have it declared and initialized in one place
 
but the entire concept of a recursive constructor just made me throw up a little
@Johan Yeah, but you're adding a lot of conceptual nuances that get really ugly
as soon as subclassing is taken into account
you'd be completely rewriting ordering rules for constructors - well, part of the constructor 😋
 
could be the same rule with virtual calls etc
simplest
 
doesn't change teh fact that you're adding stuff that gives access to the current instance before the current instance is fully constructed
shrug just seems like it opens up a weird set of oddities
 
8:13 PM
the compiler would append the <= statements to the end of the ctor
but yeah, nothing is simple of course
 
I just with => was evaluated on demand, not on ctor
I wish int Foo { get ; } => 42; -> int Foo { get { return 42; } }, not "make a backing field, and set in constructor, return backing field"
then it could work with normal => syntax
 
nvm, missed the get
why not int foo => 5;
 
yeah, just do that :p
public ICommand FooCommand => new RelayCommand(SomeInstanceMethod); 😋
 
Can you even do int Foo { get ; } => 42;?
 
8:16 PM
no, it's = 42;
 
Oh, okay, confused me a bit. :P
 
8:41 PM
There is a tutorial at Pluralsight that says an Element searches upward the visual tree until it finds a DataContext. Is this how it works? I always thought that DataContext is inherited.
 
it's "inherited" by a search up the tree
it's not actually set everywhere
 
yeah that would be a performance nightmare in some deep trees with many elements :D
 
Sounds good. Thanks! I guess he's not wrong, but his statement was confusing.
 
I think it is set, the callbacks fire when inherited properties are inherited
@milleniumbug that is wpf, keep the tree nice and shallow :)
 
@JohanLarsson that reminds me, I should extract some parts of my MainWindow to separate controls in my project
 
8:53 PM
What do you guys use for cleaning up your code -- tidying it up -- in VS?
(tabbing it properly, spacing, those things)
 
XAML Styler for XAML, but nothing for C# code
maybe resharper has something
 
Ahh... let me look it up. Thanks, Johan
 
it takes some getting used to the waste of vertical screen
but I like it because:
 
Nice!
A question... Anything for MVC/HTML?
 
8:58 PM
0) That is hwo Reed writes C#.
1) Easy way to have a common standard in the project, just install the nuget.
2) Configurable
3) When used to it it reads pretty well imo. The bracing rules kind of enables reading the shape of the code
1, 2, 3 are more curiosities given 0 :)
@Alex I'd imagine R# does a good job
 
I had CodeMaid but it seemed to be causing issues in VS
Thanks, Johan
 
@Alex iirc code maid tries to make things stylecop compliant
you can remove it if you use the stylcop analyzer it has codefixes
the analyzer & fixes works well, I use it on all my stuff
 
OK. Will try tomorrow. Need to head out.
See you guys
*Poof*
 
 
2 hours later…
10:37 PM
Added tile selection and a reflection based property explorer that looks for attribute decorated properties and then presents them in a modifiable form. It works nicely.
I need to improve my ObjectViewModel though, since it uses a chain of ifs to expose the different property view models. Not very flexible.
 
why do you have viewmodels for different types?
exposing the type as a property and datatemplateselector would work well I think
 
So I can present them differently on the ObjectView. I might be able to do that with a style selector and the type though for the primitive types.
 
and value as object
I have something similar here
don't remember if it is working
 
Awesome, should be very helpful.
I like how you hide the TextBox border when it isn't selected. Looks much better in a property view like that.
 
10:53 PM
so it works :)
 
11:07 PM
I'm playing around with the concept of dragging a window around by clicking and dragging a control within the window. The catch is, it has to be done during a DragDrop. Currently I am using OnPreviewDragOver, which works, unless you move the mouse too fast. Then it stops dragging the window. Any suggestions on how to address that?
Or would I just be better off capturing an image of the window, making that the cursor, and hiding the window till the drop is done?
 
11:20 PM
mmm - why during a drag drop?
(seems an odd requirement)
but normally, the answer is to just capture the mouse on mouse down, and release it on mouse up
 
I intend to drop the window's content on another window
Unfortunately, during DragDrop, you have pretty much no access to the mouse by normal wpf means
 
mmm - seems like you'd be better off making an adorner that you move, not moving the window
moving the window is going to make the drop target weird
 
Ya, I figured it might so I'm trying the "adorner" method. Except the adorner is a new cursor.
 
you can track mouse systemwide using pinvoke
 
And windows messages you mean?
 
11:25 PM
I don't remember the name of the method or where I have the code
did it once for something
 
I'm hoping I don't have to track it if I just swap the mouse cursor
 

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