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12:05 AM
@Drew: Okay. So you're saying that folks in the Java tag have to come to Meta to hash things out more often than not?
 
@Makoto I am saying I would love for you and Jarrod to discuss stuff together
 
I don't ever recall singling him out. In fact, I agree with some of the things he suggests. Some.
However I wasn't aware that the usual interactions we had with each other had reached this level of vitriol.
 
Then can we agree on a dialogue room. We need a dialogue room room Makato. We never get a chance to chat.
 
I don't disagree...the high rep folks in Java really don't get a chance to synchronize.
So Meta is one of the places in which we sort of do...but I suppose where I'm still a bit lost is, how is this exactly a problem?
 
It is a problem because I want an open discussion about stuff Java
because we have off topic close rooms and it is unhealthy
 
12:18 AM
Allo
 
Hi there
So @Drew, to your point about the off-topic close room, are you lobbying some kind of complaint with SOCVR?
 
I don't know the story with Jarrod, I think what @Drew is trying to say is that there are a few of us in SO Close Voters and other rooms that are very intense with moderating .
 
Cuz I know nothing with it
Ah - I'm the one guy here who's on the outside. As I said, I don't really go in there at all.
Think the last time I bothered was back last October when something on Meta caught my eye about it, but that's about it...
So...what's the problem?
 
IMO, the problem is we don't agree what's best for this site.
 
I'm sensing that tone...
 
12:21 AM
@SotiriosDelimanolis can you describe the problem ?
 
IMO, the problem is we don't agree what's best for this site.
Did that send twice?
 
It did
I'll blame lag and we can carry on :)
 
@Makoto there is no tone here
 
In terms of "tone", what I'm getting is, when some kind of flare-up does occur with respect to moderating questions, there are cases in which I give the OP the benefit of the doubt, with others arguing that the question must or needs to be closed.
Although I will say that these flare-ups aren't that common of an occurrence. I largely agree with the moderation actions being done. It's those one in a hundred occurrences that we seem to cross paths.
 
I don't think you should do that. Close now, ask questions later. All questions (Except the really bad ones) I moderate, I favorite to keep up.
 
12:25 AM
I will say @SotiriosDelimanolis, that some of the time I do that. If I feel like a question is a dupe, I usually do close it as a dupe until some evidence comes up that can change my mind. Same goes with other close-vote types.
However there have been some questions which have been labeled as "really bad" which I've seen as a simple misunderstanding.
That's not to say that there aren't really bad questions out there. I've seen my share. But, I don't think that painting all questions with the same brush makes a lot of sense, or is realistic.
 
So that last point is a problem
 
Is it?
 
for some
not for me
 
What's your take on it then @Drew? I'm kinda confused as to who you're talkin' for here.
 
@Makoto my take is that we need to discuss stuff more
 
12:37 AM
I will say that because we participate in these moderation tools so much, a lot of us run out of votes quickly. We'd prefer not to waste them. If we're on the same page, we won't.
 
So I need to be on the same page then, essentially, since the both of you guys are in SOCVR and you both do actively moderate Java?
 
@Makoto and I dont like how we seem to fight about stuff.
 
need, eh. We'd like you to, yes.
 
I have no idea why any of this comes across as a fight, actually. I'm certainly not intending it to.
 
no, we like to diagree
 
12:40 AM
@SotiriosDelimanolis: In what sense, in your mind, do you not see me as on the same page?
But before you answer that -
I do like to get rid of bad questions, but I also like to give questions which aren't quite there a fighting chance as opposed to downvoting/closing them. No sense in removing it before it has a chance to really prove itself.
 
@Makoto I agree
 
It may be a disagreement with the way I moderate questions at times, and there's only been one case in which you and I had a sidebar about it ourselves @SotiriosDelimanolis. In terms of other disagreements, maybe I've seen my name mentioned or anyone else's named mentioned...twice or three times this year.
The only one resonating in my mind was back in February.
 
Yeah, we had a discussion in the past.
As to giving a chance, I don't agree. Vote on the content as is. Let them improve. I don't want users FGITWing on something that wasn't the user's intention.
Duplicates I can deal with myself, mostly.
 
I don't disagree there; the FGITW issue is annoying and should be curbed as quickly as possible...
 
Everything else, it's almost as if the typo-no mcve-unclear didn't exist some times. Not you, but in general.
 
12:44 AM
Java's a big tag, to be honest. There's a lot of crap swimming around and not a lot of people keeping an eye on things.
It's easy to see the crap and just think that's what's coming down, but truth be told, I still feel like giving questions at least a chance would be beneficial in the short term.
 
Right, so when one post we wanted to moderate gets reverted...you can understand our frustration
 
Do you want to use the post which created this chatroom as an example? I'd be happy to defend my actions on that one.
 
Sure, but I've said what I've wanted to, and so have you. I agree with Servy's comment. I understood the question differently than Theo and maybe you.
That's enough for warning bells.
 
Well that's just the thing. Seems like every time we cross paths, it's always some kind of frustration over the way I view questions, and it's kind of tough to let you see the other side of it.
I can see your side fairly well - the question was misinformed and the OP used a completely invalid example. If one wanted to answer the question based on what the OP had said verbatim, it would be difficult to do so.
 
Ok slow down.
 
12:48 AM
However, what I saw was a question about a relatively confused Java [person] (I do hesitate to write "programmer" or "developer" - could be a hobbyist) asking how interfaces work.
 
Can I first ask how/if you upvoted/downvoted?
 
I don't recall voting at first. I recall remarking that the question was clear and that it probably shouldn't have been closed as "unclear".
 
Have you upvoted/downvoted since?
 
I did - I upvoted it since the question was a bit clearer.
 
Was that after your edit or theo's?
 
12:52 AM
guys change the subject. The yankees or something
 
You think we're going to agree on favorite sports teams?
 
It was probably after Theo's. Our edits landed a fair bit closer and I did start the work day.
Oh geez. Controversial topic, that. :P
 
break the strain. Agree on differences
 
@Drew: No really, I have no qualms with this.
I have a different moderating style to most everyone, but we do largely agree. It's the disagreements which seem to ruffle feathers.
 
@Makoto I just want you to be available to talk to
 
12:57 AM
I generally am...I do have a life but I can be found about the place
 
@Makoto I want to send you a list of candidates I have for deletion but I'm scared you're going to disagree entirely.
 
I don't see that as a reason to be scared, necessarily. It might be good to see the other side of it.
For all we know, I might entirely agree! :P
 
We can have a discussion about it later
tomorrow, whenever
I gtg
 
Alright - I'll catch up with you later then :)
 
cya @Drew @Makoto
 
1:00 AM
thx guys for talking
I know we don't agree about a lot of stuff. But thx for your time
 
Hmm. I'll leave my opinions on these questions that @SotiriosDelimanolis left me a link to in here then.
 
1:14 AM
@Drew Y'all do realize that starting off with "You're doing a bad job" isn't the most constructive statement in the world?
 
@hichris123 I realized that I wanted Makato here
 
Honestly, this doesn't seem like the most constructive way to have a discussion. Discuss, fine, but don't start off confrontational or assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
 
and I wanted his voice here
 
And yes, I know this isn't really my place, but I generally think that Makato's actions are sane, and don't appreciate that kind of tone with any community member.
 
I've got slightly thicker skin than most in this situation @hichris123; I don't disagree that it does sound or seem confrontational, but I'm quite comfortable in my moderator style.
I've also got a bit of time to peruse their candidates for closure, which helps me get a sense of what they think. I get the opportunity to give them the sense of what I think now. That makes me pretty happy.
 
1:19 AM
@Makoto Fair enough, but I don't think that the confrontational tone is something that you (or anyone) should be subjected to. It doesn't go along with be nice or the site guidelines.
 
I highly disagree with Sot in most cases. Those transcripts sugget that
 
Not really, no. But at least we're talking about it in chat.
 
True.
 
I do not like Sot del style
So never connect us by the hip
 
@SotiriosDelimanolis This is somewhat of a dangerous statement. When something is "reverted", you should consider that those actions may have actually been wrong. Feeling frustrated that one of the many thousands of posts you've moderated has been reverted is not only unhealthy for you, it's unhealthy for the site (not to mention, feedback on being right/wrong is a top priority of the SOCVR).
@Drew I'm more concerned with the tone than the statements. You can disagree/agree all you want with anyone, but at least be non-confrontational.
 
1:25 AM
@hichris123 please help me
did I say something?
 
I suggest you reread the statements from the beginning, starting off with "you don't do a great job at it", "come back when you have time", and "I cannot understand why you guys cannot talk like humans about java", and try and see how that would come off as confrontational.
 
@hichris123 well then my own words worked
 
@hichris123: You do have a point there.
 
1:41 AM
the only point is he his a pingable asset now
 
I've always been pingable. I don't lurk in chat that often, though.
 
@Drew Work? Perhaps. Follow be nice? Almost definitely not.
 
@hichris123 what did I say that encourgaged that?
 
How does being confrontational align with "Be welcoming, be patient, and assume good intentions"?
 
@hichris123 what did I do?
 
1:47 AM
16 mins ago, by hichris123
I suggest you reread the statements from the beginning, starting off with "you don't do a great job at it", "come back when you have time", and "I cannot understand why you guys cannot talk like humans about java", and try and see how that would come off as confrontational.
 
those are cut and paste stmt
those are sweet
@hichris123 ?
@hichris123 do you have a problem with discussing issues with JAVA questions cuz I dont
 
2:04 AM
@Drew Sweet? You mean if you went up to someone and said "You don't do a great job at [something]", they would think "How sweet!"? Or if you said "Come back when you have time"?
 
@hichris123 I asked you a question
 
I have no problem discussing issues with Java questions. Again, I'm concerned with the tone I saw earlier.
 
link?
 
36 mins ago, by hichris123
I suggest you reread the statements from the beginning, starting off with "you don't do a great job at it", "come back when you have time", and "I cannot understand why you guys cannot talk like humans about java", and try and see how that would come off as confrontational.
Three examples of messages that would likely come off as confrontational.
 
link to the question?
 
2:09 AM
What?
 
you are asking my take on a question. What is the Q link?
 
/me hits head against wall
 
I'm not...? I was talking about the tone of messages I saw earlier...?
 
Aww, that doesn't exist here.
So today I learned: typing CTRL + C and CTRL + V on a completely blank keyboard is literally a fate worse than death. I'll just write a script for it next time.
Anyway, @SotiriosDelimanolis: Here's my responses to those deletions. gist.githubusercontent.com/MakotoTheKnight/…
My general opinion on this: duplicate questions, unless they're really bad, don't need to be deleted at all. If nothing else, there may be some good answers on there that are worth preserving.
There were a handful of them that I thought could be salvaged in all honesty, but there's not a lot of 'em. It seems to mostly be dupe-heavy.
Anyhow, that's my stance on it. I'm not interested in burning another 75 minutes doing that again. But, I can at least see where we disagree a lot clearer now.
 
2:40 AM
@Makoto I won't reply individually to each of those comments, but now we know where each of us kind of stands on moderation. (There are a few of those deletes-on-dupes that are frustration on my part against those that answer without a tiny bit of effort searching for dupes).
@hichris123 When I notice a post I voted to closed is reopened, of course I try to find out why. The state of the answers in this specific post tells me I'm not wrong about the original unclear. 2 of the 3 cover completely separate interpretations of the question. Those users that voted too broad are also not wrong. How do interfaces get their “power”? is not an answerable question. How do you use a Runnable to start a Thread? has already been answered in the tag.
No interpretation of this question currently fits the standards of Stack Overflow.
 
 
3 hours later…
5:32 AM
hi
 
 
1 hour later…
7:02 AM
Hi @SotiriosDelimanolis
Generally, let me say that I've never disagreed with your judgement before. I think you're doing great work with your moderating style.
Regarding the question that started this room, I honestly can't read your (and Servy's) interpretation of it, mainly because the example with Runnable seems (to me) way too targeted to be about interfaces in general.
I really think the user was asking "if interfaces are just contracts, how does run() create a separate thread?". In that case, the answer to the misconception is "it doesn't" and then you need a way to educate them about what's the point behind Runnable.
Now granted, I may be reading this wrong or maybe the proper way to deal with this is solve the misconception in a comment and then link to the canonical.
I'll generally have it in mind, later on.
I generally don't hang around in a lot, and I realize it's an enormous tag, especially since so many questions here are from beginner programmers in general.
And I realize that the users who moderate it regularly have quite an amount of work to do.
I generally have a tendency to want to give these kinds of questions the benefit of the doubt, because I've seen my share of garbage-seeming questions that are actually interesting if you read past their poor form.
But that happens in other tags.
If the regulars have decided to be more strict with the quality of the questions, then I will not get in your way.
 
 
7 hours later…
2:34 PM
@TheodorosChatzigiannakis As always, vote as you think is appropriate. I can't say we are more strict, I don't participate in many other tags. I can tell you however that I upvote only one post every few days. I don't often see questions (about the language) that haven't already been answered and can be found with a few searches.
And I don't have much patience with either OPs that don't put effort into their posts or users that answer before a question is clear.
 
2:52 PM
Fair enough, I agree with your reasoning.
For this particular case, I initially thought it was clear and that's why I answered, but now I see that it wasn't.
I'll try to be more careful with these kinds of questions in the future.
 

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