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7:57 PM
You might want to learn about the history of OOPL, notably C++, which stated as a preforcessor for C.
Or look into the Linux sources, e.g. for device-drivers (file-interface).
stated->started
It is always a good idea to get the basics. And C is a good start. But mind its pitfalls (keyword: undefined behaviour)
You don't!
Unless you programmed an 80ies computer game in Assembler - completely
Well, it was fun.
kinda. But then, I have advanced. Not sure If I'd do it again with modern CPUs. The 68K instruction set was/is just great. No comparison to x86. ARM is better, but still not like 68K
It's hard for me to judge how you see it.
Too broad. You can find the reference manuals of ARM, 68K/ColdFire/etc. in the net. Just search.
For the 68K you can use an Atari-ST or Amiga emulator.
 
I thought C was dead
Long live c++
 
Almost all manual for CPUs are available for free. Problem are some SOCs
**NO**
C is far from being dead!
 
shouldn't it be though? What does C do better than C++? Legit question
 
Java is dead. If you know C, C++ and Python you have enough ammunition to shoot any general programming problem with appropriate measures (no shooting cannons at sparrows)
 
@Olaf How is Java dead with android literally revolving around it?
 
8:06 PM
No offence, but please learn about C and other programming fields like embedded before stating such - sorry - nonsense.
Or the Linux Kernel and other OS. IIRC, Darwin is also C-only.
 
@QPaysTaxes I thought it was OpenJDK
 
@JABFreeware: It is not about being actually used, but about obsolecense.
 
@Olaf ah
interesting
 
C for low-level, possibly with littel inline-Assembler, C++ for fast OOP Mid-range, Python (maybe Ruby, but the syntax is less obvious) for high-level where speed and RAM consumption do not care much, possibly with C++ or C modules.
 
@Olaf I thought C++ could do low-level as well? Granted I haven't written that low level but its what I was told
 
8:11 PM
@QPaysTaxes: Not to the occassional reader. Show Ruby code and Python code to someone with some education, but no programming skills. They'll be much faster "in" the Python than the Ruby code.
@JABFreeware: Kinda. But C++ is bloatware and needs some runtime. C doesn't.
 
I've seen plenty of C++ drivers. In windows that is.
 
It is more like Assembler in that aspect, but provides quite some abstraction already. Most important: structured datatypes
For instance memory allocation and the lib, as well as for the basic OOP stuff. In C you have full control.
Not to mention the bloat if you use overloading and virtual methods. But without that, there is not much left from C++, so why not use C?
@JABFreeware: Have you ever programmed embedded systems? And that is not RasPi&Co!
 
@Olaf not my thing at all. Prefer to stay with "real" computers
 
@QPaysTaxes: Funny enough, that is the feature I actually miss most in C. But there are ways to get along without. Use a good coding standard and use prefixes and other measures.
 
It makes sense though with less processing power you wouldn't want any unnecessary overhead
 
8:18 PM
But namespaces would actually be easy to add to the standard without breaking the language concept. OTOH, they would do technically the same: just add a prefix (there is little difference if I type mymodule_myfunc or mymodule.func.
@JABFreeware: Ask the HPC guys. They also prefer a lean languge they have (almost) full control e.g. of cache-utilisation. And the CPUs they use are definitively not slow.
But if you get cache trashing due to a virtual-table lookup, you definitively kick away the whole OOP stuff.
Not that I don't appreciate OOP. But then it should be the real thing, not what C++ or Java, etc. provide.
(I should have written "user namespaces! As we already discussed, C does have namespaces)
 
@Olaf the real thing? What language does that?
 
What difference do you mean? The namespaces we alread discussed.
@JABFreeware: Python for instance. (IDK Ruby good enough)
WEll, are classes first-class objects in Java? can you have meata-classes which define how to construct a class?
 
@Olaf I think you're in a differently level of abstraction (erm none? lol) than me. I haven't had any issues with what you mentioned above. But I learned something now haha.
 
IOW, can you write a csingleton in Java which constructs classes as objects?
@QPaysTaxes: I anticipated that, but I'm careful about things I don't know well enough for a qualified statement.
 
@Olaf guess I stand corrected about C because of that
 
8:31 PM
@JABFreeware: Yes, but that is often necessary. To me, from abstration level, C++ is significantly higher than C (it supports natively low-level OOP and - with templates - an intermediate OOP-level). Java/C#/etc. are not much higher than C++, though, just the garbage-collection and minor corrections. AFAIK nothing C++ could not also provide (Obj-C for instance also has a GC).
Then Python Ruby, etc. provide the next "big thing" of abstraction - at the cost of speed and (possibly) memory). But still fast enough for GUIs.
and other user-applications.
There are even games in Python. Nothign AA(A), more3 casual, but still.
 
is the linux kernel a majority of C or is it a mix with C and C++?
 
@JABFreeware: Linux is C-only (I think I stated that above already)
You don't need an OOP-language to do OOP
I also do OOP in C. Even actor-based programming.
 
ahhh
 
@QPaysTaxes: That is no true GC.
 
any good resources for learning that?
 
8:36 PM
They are just relaxed deleteed.
@JABFreeware: ca. 35 years of learning and curiosity. Resources are everything you can getyour hands on.
@QPaysTaxes: It is the first part. But in fact, it is just delayed deallocation.
I actually use something like that in my C projects.
Not really complicated.
 
@Olaf so essentially you're in GC?
own*
 
@JABFreeware: No, Im an embedded systems engineer. I don't do in garbage. Just implemented a gc algorithm.
 
@Olaf nice
 
@QPaysTaxes: Not exactly. In C, I have to care about the pointers myself, of course. There is no automatic behind the scenes. It is similar to writing a C-module for Python where you also have to make sure the refrence counters are updated correctly.
Point is, it off-loads the whole bunch of freeing and worrying about when to free from the application up to some level.
@QPaysTaxes: Yes, but in C, I have full control. It would be chaos in an interrupt handler or other RT-code if the framework would unexpectedly interfere.
And the additional application code is negligible. There is just no use for C++ here. Worse, the C++ OOP model is not the best for some projects either. For an actor-based system, component-/template-based OOP is much better
(often)
That's exactly the point. Similar to Lotus vs. Mercedes S-Class/Rolls Royce/etc.
I don't like C on the desktop either. Had written GUI in C in the 80ies: horror.
But neccessary then for performance reasons (and because there was no C++ avial.
As I wrote, for that Python (maybe Ruby ;-) is good.
Sorry, I messed with the browser. Didn't read whatever you deleted.
(It's quite complicate to get back to a chat once you closed the frame)
 

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