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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

12:00 AM
Rome was unique even for the Empire standards, because it took in people and goods from everywhere
Have you watched HBO's Rome? It's pretty good.
 
Fuck Amazon oneboxing
 
Because it's exceedingly elaborate?
 
I guess there's too much of the description but
 
12:07 AM
It's huge on a phone
It doesn't fit on one screen
 
lol is it really that terrible
 
Yeah
And it doesn't even show the picture
 
it's next level man
 
I'll probably check it out once I finish through my queue.
Hmm, no audiobook, though :/ I've grown to prefer them since I got tinnitus because I can "read" a book and at the same time avoid silence.
Which is also why I'm still up :/
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It does on PC
 
Xeo
12:27 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Somehow the way you said that made me think of The Sound of Silence.
 
12:55 AM
@Mikhail I've been paying almost $100 a month. I'm not entirely sure what I'm switching to. But the new place is just a plug-in-and-go like a dorm.
 
Xeo
100 bucks for what kinda speed?
 
So, my SuperMicro motherboard shorts whenever I have the CPU screws in, and I can't come up with any clever ways to use electrical tape.
I'm hoping the RAID cards will hold the system in place.
 
1:10 AM
@набиячлэвэли lol ego issues
 
@AldwinCheung ?
 
@набиячлэвэли "why west is best"
 
@AldwinCheung no you moron
 
@набиячлэвэли no you
 
nice bloody b8
 
1:27 AM
@Borgleader triangle tail
 
@Xeo 3.5 MB/s - which is 28 Mbits/s
 
Xeo
wow, expensive
I get 50/10 for 30 bucks
 
Fucking Comcast.
2
 
@jaggedSpire it has such tiny feet :O
 
I'm working my ass off to move enough of my shit to my new place before the end of the month so that I can terminate my Comcast service.
The new place is 30 Mbps and included in the HOA assessment.
Since it's dorm-style plug-and-play, there no need for any stupid modems.
 
Xeo
1:33 AM
but... the modem / router still has to live somewhere...
(no clue what "dorm-style p-n-p" is)
 
Probably somewhere centralized in the building.
AHAHAHA!!!! I have secondary confirmation that the FLOPS crash is indeed an AMD Ryzen errata. AMD has confirmed and it will be fixable by microcode! MUAHAHAHAHAA
9
I WIN!!!!!
 
Ya think they will fix it in HW for future chips?
 
No idea. Not that it matters where the fix is as long as there are no other negative effects.
 
Xeo
1:51 AM
> Thanks: 0
Thankless bastard
 
Oh aha. That's not a button I usually pay attention to. I guess I'll do it here.
 
Xeo
that's some old as shit forum software, tho, man
 
Alright. I have something new to brag about: I found a processor bug. Bitch!
18
 
2:07 AM
@Mysticial You could have sold the exploit for like $100k. Upached, it could be used to do things like take down cloud servers.
 
@Mikhail TBH, I'd stand to lose much more than 100k if that ever traced back to me.
 
@Mysticial There is nothing illegal about selling an exploit, the only criminal act is actually using the exploit.
 
@Mikhail It's not illegal, but it prevent negative effects on your career. For example, my current job says they can fire people if they, "behave in a way that is inconsistent with the company's values".
IOW, being known as an asshole can have far-reaching consequences.
 
LOL, don't you work a souless financial service company?
 
@Mikhail If was an employer, I wouldn't hire someone who has a history of causing other people trouble - even if they were qualified for the job.
 
2:20 AM
I berlive AMD gives some cash for reportedf bugs depending on ihe significants
 
 
1 hour later…
3:28 AM
@Mysticial well done. that’s means a green light when it comes to the processor unless one needs AVX right now, right?
 
4:17 AM
@Mysticial Will they give you some reward? Or, send free Ryzen for you to test in the future.
 
5:06 AM
@LucDanton How much does one AVX cost
 
@AldwinCheung not a lot, but where they get you is that they pressure you to buy them in bulk of 512
 
5:30 AM
AVX Weed? :P
@AldwinCheung i.imgur.com/2g2ymSE.png .Hm very cheap actually if you buy it by pieces /
 
@LucDanton wow typical Intel and their shady business practices
 
@Mysticial Fuck yeah! So you got insider contacts now?
 
5:48 AM
@Mysticial "Do I get anything shiny?".. and you got only " thank you ",. Fuck AMD. :/
 
@sehe huh, I noticed YCM has support for so-called compilation databases so I’m giving that a spin
 
6:20 AM
@Mysticial Is there any official page about this bug/errata yet?
 
 
1 hour later…
user1804599
7:34 AM
Boaty McBoatface is on its first official mission.
 
welp gdb crashes
 
7:50 AM
@ProblemSlover Oh
 
@Shoe yoh
 
excuse me, gentlemen, may I have the link for backstory about this peculiar amd crash?
 
8:12 AM
0
Q: Creating a thread from a member class function

user7631183Here is my class.h class threads_queue{ private: boost::condition_variable the_condition_variable; public: //boost::atomic<bool> done; boost::lockfree::spsc_queue<std::pair<char, std::string>> q{100}; //threads_queue() : done(false) {}; void static run_function(); void a...

^ close as duplicate please.
 
8:27 AM
> Thanks for finding this bug @Mysticial!
At least 1, anyway.
 
@LucDanton what else is news
 
Quick, sell it as a "zero day"
 
@MarkGarcia thank you! (didn't realize you can search through the messages :) )
 
8:43 AM
@login_not_failed I must be clear that we are not in any way violating any FTC regulations in those discussions.
 
@MarkGarcia I'm not one of those sharks, trust me. :)
 
Good.
 
This bug has bween shared on pulic forum . so wtf
 
yea, it's in a public domain now, so it's fine
 
@login_not_failed but still I hope you are not affiliated with CIA in any way "{:P}
 
8:54 AM
@ProblemSlover I'm sure none of the spooks would openly ask questions
 
Sup guise
 
user1804599
9:26 AM
FUUUUCK
 
Ell
@rightfold what's up?
 
user1804599
my code broke
 
user1804599
@Mysticial NSFW
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Remember when you said that motorbike trails in the self-driven world should be funded by their users? Well, apparently it's okay to steal their money anyway.
 
Oh my gosh
I just did semaphores + mutexes + condition variables
 
9:39 AM
Add raw pointers and that's a bingo
 
Yup. Raw pointers everywhere.
What is <semaphore.h>? POSIX semaphore extension?
 
@login_not_failed: One of the threads: forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=167605
 
@wilx thank you, that's what I was searching for; my main goal is not to sue people for discussing exploits :), but to know more about ryzen before buying a couple of them
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I did end up implementing a fully-featured defer (temp docs). implementation is a bit silly (mutable and state bits galore), but what can you do
 
@VermillionAzure Yes.
 
9:51 AM
Hm
 
Is there a reason they're not first class primitives in pthreads or C++?
 
@VermillionAzure Beware, IIRC, unnamed semaphores are broken on MacOS X.
@VermillionAzure They are first class in pthreads.
I mean, they are part of SUS.
 
@wilx Are they? I didn't find pthread_semaphore_create.
So if they're an extension, it's not the regular, core pthread library, right?
 
@VermillionAzure Well, yes, they are optional but implemented almost everywhere.
 
@wilx But why are they not implemented as a primitive in C++?
As it was recently explained to me, semaphores can be considered an alternative basis for mutual exclusion.
So... is it that mutexes are inherently faster? What is it?
 
9:57 AM
@VermillionAzure C++ has <thread> now
 
@VermillionAzure Mutexes and semaphores have slightly different semantics. You cannot unlock mutex from other threads, locked mutex is owned by the locking thread. But you can signal a semaphore from different thread. Also, semaphores can allow multiple threads in the critical section while with mutex it is always one.
 
and atomic
 
@wilx Who says that you can't unlock mutex from another thread...?
 
@VermillionAzure Everyone. :)
 
@wilx I thought that was just the choice of pthread, but the "theoretical" idea of mutex is simply just the lock/unlock idea
Hm... But that would make sense because then a mutex would be the same as a binary semaphore.
OKAY so semaphores can be consumed across threads, and mutexes cannot.
...WTF semaphores.
 
10:01 AM
@VermillionAzure They are useful to limit the amount of threads in some critical section.
 
@wilx They remind me a lot of continuations.
In the sense that they're theoretically beautiful. But not always optimal.
 
@VermillionAzure Semaphores are still useful but their application is limited.
 
@wilx Also, I feel like a lot of it has to do with ownership...
@wilx It feels a lot like Rust's ownership thing, but it's expressed too loosely and implicitly. It's definitely not explicit
 
Semaphore is a good as a primitive to implement other more complex concepts, like implementation of conditional variable or as part of rwlock.
 
"Semaphores feel a lot like Rust's ownership thing" - Cinch, 2017
9
 
10:22 AM
lol
@wilx "Their application is limited". Yeah, limited to pretty much nearly all modern software
 
@AldwinCheung IME, samphores are a lot less used than CVs and mutexes.
 
@AldwinCheung Would you light my semaphore bby? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
 
@wilx Mutexes and CVs are semaphores
 
Oh wait.
"Semaphores remind me a lot of continuations" - Cinch, 2017
7
YCMTSU
 
@AldwinCheung Uh huh?
 
10:25 AM
@Rerito C'est pas mon fort
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
BTW, what would be a vicious question about aggregate initialization to ask in an interview?
 
Which version of VS it was fixed in
8
 
@AldwinCheung Did you know that VS does not get this right?
 
10:29 AM
@Rerito I found interesting that std::queue has no clear method, but can be emptied with a agg.init
queue = {}
 
@Rerito Well it has variadics so not really
 
@MartinMatilla That's not aggregate initialization.
 
@AldwinCheung You mean not really surprising?
 
"VS gets X wrong" is not surprising for most Xs.
 
@Rerito I've been using VS long enough to be more surprised by things that work rather than by things that don't.
 
10:31 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes In a probabilistic setup we would say "VS gets X wrong almost surely" :D
 
oh i see, i didn't know there was a difference. I understand that agg.init is to initialize the struct giving internal variables values?
 
aggregate initialization is for initializing aggregates
 
unions structs and arrays?
 
just like list initialization is for initializing lists
 
10:39 AM
subtle trolling
 
@MartinMatilla the devil is in the many, many details which are 100% too boring to remember
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes How come Korean takes so much space
 
@AldwinCheung All the syllable blocks are encoded
 
Doesn't each jamo get its own codepoint? o.o
 
10:42 AM
@LucDanton what are the advantages then, (eg. in strcuts) with respect to inititalizing each member?
 
@AldwinCheung Jamo are few.
 
Why wouldn't they encode the jamos instead of the syllable blocks
 
All their groupings into (valid) syllables have their own precomposed form.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol that’s crazy
 
it will be much more bug prone if there are so many details
 
10:43 AM
@AldwinCheung As usual, likely for compatibility with some pre-existing encoding.
 
@MartinMatilla I don’t know
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can you still make up arbitrary jamo sequences that aren't valid korean syllables?
 
@Rerito what is the point on asking vicious questions on agginit if its so complex to use that noone uses it past the simple cases?
 
@AldwinCheung Yes, because the jamo also exist alone.
@AldwinCheung Unusual jamo sequences are good testcases for e.g. text selection algorithms. Try to select a single jamo out of ᄀᄀᄀ각ᆨᆨ
 
@MartinMatilla In what occasion other than an interview can you nitpick on things like that? :D
 
10:50 AM
@Rerito true
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nice
 
@AldwinCheung If you copy-paste it, though, you'll notice you can backspace over the individual jamo.
 
Why is that?
 
It's annoying to have backspace behave like the selection?
And the selection doesn't work on the parts because that'd be similar to selecting just the accent out of é
That's not precomposed, so you can c&p and backspace over just the accent (if you typed it with a separate keystroke for accent, it makes sense to need two backspaces to delete the whole thing)
 
Ven
11:06 AM
Heyo
@R.MartinhoFernandes also "Semaphores are continuations"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes cool stuff
 
@LucDanton It's the kind of stuff that keeps us employed.
 
@Mikhail not all errata are exploitable, more to the point it's unethical
 
11:23 AM
@Ven ikr
Semaphores can be anything you want them to be.
Semaphores can be POTUS.
 
@Ven I originally read that as "Sophomores" and my thoughts were "Well yes they are continuing... but that's not the nicest thing to say"
 
Ven
@R.MartinhoFernandes the Cinch Theorem states that two words of equal-looking complexity must mean approximately the same thing.
17
 
11:42 AM
I ate. Now I fill both full & hungry. That's terrible. I should stop eating.
 
@Morwenn fill both full and hungry, this is a new feeling
 
@Mgetz Haha, how did I even? ...
 
Ven
you're french
 
I probably mixed « feel » and « full » to get to that.
 
@Morwenn at least on the en-US keyboard those are on opposite sides
 
user1804599
11:46 AM
my fries are french
 
@rightfold actually they are Belgian but illegally immigrated
3
 
Ven
@rightfold hi
 
@Mgetz It's not a typo, it's a mind failure.
 
user1804599
Flemish fries <3
 
Ven
@rightfold should my forth parse [1 2] as [ 1 2 ]?
it'll be annoying to do in Tcl.
 
11:47 AM
@Morwenn like all bugs
 
@rightfold they use horse fat last I checked drools
 
Ven
@MartinMatilla don't exclude sabotage
 
user1804599
@Ven Absolutely.
 
Ven
@rightfold :[ Tcl sucks at string parsing, which is funny because it's string-based
 
sabotage from your own mind?
 
Ven
11:48 AM
I wonder if Tcl regexps are PCRE-compatible
 
user1804599
Don't use Tcl you idiot.
 
its subtly telling you to stop killing it with that syntax
 
@Ven you're twice as compatible with Perl!
 
Ven
@rightfold but strings
@rightfold I refuse to take compliments from someone who's writing an ABAP ersatz.
 
user1804599
what is an ersatz
 
user1804599
11:50 AM
>Made in imitation; artificial, especially of a poor quality.
 
user1804599
TIL thanks
 
@rightfold Ersatz is German for a replacement, often temporary.
 
user1804599
why the t though
 
Dunno. Funnily enough, in Middle High German, there's no t.
 
user1804599
It's silent, right?
 
11:57 AM
Some idiot added it at some point, but it's redundant.
@rightfold Yeah.
 
@Ven That actually does not necessarily seem insane to me.
in fact I'm pretty sure that some code I wrote at work could be considered that way.
 
user1804599
You can implement semaphores using continuations.
 
user1804599
Get a callback when ready.
 
You can implement anything with continuations!
 
user1804599
It's such a fucking shame that V8 is too stubborn to implement TCO.
 
11:59 AM
probably can
 
user1804599
Otherwise everything in JS would be CPS by now and you can just write reusable code.
 
Ven
@rightfold aren't they working on it?
they'll be forced to in ES7
 
user1804599
No, they're trying to get the syntax changed.
 
I prefer promises/tasks to CPS
 
Ven
@rightfold link/explanation?
 
12:01 PM
@rightfold In Old High German, "sitzen"—which is where it comes from—was with zz, and it seems there's a general zz->tz change in spelling. I'm guessing it wasn't always redundant.
 
user1804599
@Ven Can't find it quickly, the syntax they want is return continue f(); instead of return f();.
 
Ven
@rightfold what the crap
 
ISTR that tail-call optimization is not unobservable in JS
 
Ven
there's no stack-observing behavior in JS. so barring weird arguments stuff (I'm not sure), I don't think so.
 
user1804599
There is.
 
user1804599
12:04 PM
Functions have callee and arguments properties.
 
user1804599
Retarded fucking crap nobody uses.
 
Oh, it's actually meaningful. "A doubled consonant after a vowel indicates that the vowel is short, while a single consonant often indicates the vowel is long, (...).
k and z are not doubled, but instead replaced by ck (as in English) and tz"
 
Ven
@rightfold callee is on arguments, ain't it?
 
user1804599
no
 
hmm
 
user1804599
var f = function() {
  console.log(f.callee);
};
var g = function() {
  f();
}
 
apparently they chucked them in strict mode, so strict mode can implement TCO unobservably
 
user1804599
@Ven oh whatever
 
Ven
@rightfold it's important actually :|
for this one thing
 
user1804599
12:36 PM
Ugh, Data::Faker generates "Gaylord" as a company name
 
Joe
12:48 PM
can man use labview to send a sinuswave from computer and then show it in an oscilloscope by using a coaxial cable?
 
I imagine some man can
 
Joe
@Puppy so it is possible
@Puppy why when I connect computer to oscilloscope I do not get a sinus wave
 
don't care
 
Ven
my C++ teacher just said a class can't be abstract just from a virtual pure dtor, because you might want to put code there.
 
you never know..
 
Ven
12:59 PM
@MartinMatilla C++ forces your dtor to have an impl. anyway, so it's factually wrong
 
@Joe yes, this room is full of experts on how to connect an oscilloscope to your computer /s
 
@Ven sarcasm xd
 
Everyone knows that "C" in the room name stands for osCilloscope
 
there are many places you can connect an oscilloscope, I think the best way to get a sine is to play a pure tone and connected it to the audio output.
 
1:27 PM
@Puppy I'm guessing they're German, where the generic pronoun equivalent to "one" is "man"
 
@rightfold I don't think that's such a weird name en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Gaylord (ad. 1)
IOW: the prejudice might be in your head.
 
2:32 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes as in Mankind, I guess
 
2:50 PM
@Puppy no, it’s literally man. 'Man' is Mann.
 
Ven
die Frau...
 
user1804599
@sehe Geilaard
 
Geylaerde
 
0
Q: C++ Local Variable

rafiyzone of my students asks the question that what is the life of local variable in c++. i told him that it is limited to the body of that function in which it was used but after the program given below i was amazed. i declared two functions fun() and fun2() and declare int i in both functions. acco...

> one of my students
 
good job
 
3:10 PM
Everyone is so good at downvoting.. Probably I'm only one who never downvotes questions/answers rather just flagging them
 
Butthurt detector: 7.3
 
Altthough I admit I did in the past.. but times have changed
 
Well. The same happens for other people.
 
I downvote when I think it's really deserved (but doing a quick calculation, I upvote approximately 33 times as often as I downvote).
 
Ell
I learned about string diagrams today
they are very cool
 
3:20 PM
@ProblemSlover then you're basically not utilizing your full arsenal of moderation on SO
downvotes are meant to be used
and cases like this one are basically asking for them
I have 2,680:722
 
@BartekBanachewicz WEll at least I kinda moderate this chat by referring newbies to "appropriate places"
 
@ProblemSlover well good for you
 
I'm more concerned about well being of Loungue than entire SO
 
3:36 PM
@ProblemSlover In that case, why bother discussing down-voting at all?
 
@JerryCoffin Well I still check questions which you sharing here considering them "interesting".. and I felt like the op of last one wasn't treated fairly even though It was a duplicate of question which got bunch of upvotes.,.. anyway. It's my personal opinion and I want to move on
 
his question was shitty, and so it got a lot of downvotes
sounds fair to me
 
3:53 PM
I'm one of the few Instagram users who connects solely through the Unix 'talk' gateway.
3
 
So, Xeo seems to be enjoying Zelda.
 
ack
the Scots want another independence referendum
 
4:21 PM
Well I don't think they want to be stuck with Brexit.
 
hi
 
understandably
but also their own problem
they voted to be a part of the UK and they are in
they can't just whine and threaten independence every time the UK makes a decision they don't like
they voted in, they're in, and we should not approve another referendum for at least 25-30 years
 
Isn't freedom the ability to change your idea?
Just because they wanted to be part of a UK that's in the EU doesn't mean they want to be part of a UK that's not in the EU.
The situation changed, the context changed. They should be able to reevaluate.
 
nah
voting to stay in the UK is more than that
 
Also democracy doesn't have cooldowns.
 
4:27 PM
^
 
well, it really does.
election cycles in Britain are mostly fixed at 5 years now
American presidential terms are 4 years each
etc etc
 
Yeah and that leads to people thinking they're only allowed to have an opinion once every few years.
 
when they voted to stay in the UK, they agreed to let the entire UK make certain decisions.
 
What a great environment.
 
they have fair representation in our Parliament and in the Brexit referendum just like everybody else.
 
4:29 PM
Doesn't mean they want to follow the rest of the country off the fucking cliff.
 
doesn't matter what they want
 
Seriously you're arguing that just because they let someone else drive they really want to be part of the ensuing car crash.
 
part of being in a democratic society is that sometimes, you lose.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel you mean the rest of scotland?
 
I don't want to Brexit either but I'm not going to declare independence in my flat.
 
4:30 PM
democracy -> doesn't matter what they want
 
@Morwenn In some situations, absolutely.
 
Considering Brexit would have failed if the referendum had re-ocurred two weeks after
I think I understand why cooldowns are important if you want people to have no fucking power
 
they had power and they used it to agree that we had certain powers.
now we're using ours
 
As I said, in a democracy, people have a say at all times.
 
hmm
so in Canada, you require unanimous agreement from everybody before enacting everything?
 
4:32 PM
Oh in Canada we also have our share of problems.
Comes with the Westminster systems.
 
yeah, I agree that there's plenty of other problems in both the UK and Canada
 
The UK gave us a broken pre-alpha version of democracy and we're stuck with it.
 
but this is not one of them
 
I don't know, maybe I'm from a culture where bowing to the general consensus is not seen as a necessarily positive thing.
 
it's not considered always positive here, but since we have an unelected second chamber, there's a lot of pressure on the elected one
 
4:34 PM
I'm also generally for the independence of Quebec from Canada, so I also support that position in Scotland.
 
frankly
 
I don't like large centralized federations as government structures.
 
if the people of Scotland want a referendum, and the democratically elected government of the UK declines, I don't see how that's undemocratic, given that the people of Scotland agreed to remain a part of the UK in the first place.
 
It is because it means the people of Scotland can't voice their opinion.
 
yes, but I don't give a fuck about the opinion of the people of Scotland- they're UK citizens like any other and the fact that they happen to be conveniently located in one area north of an imaginary line on a map means nothing.
 
Ell
4:36 PM
@EtiennedeMartel isn't that what the EU is? :P
 
there's nothing different between the Scottish independence referendum and me wanting independence for my flat.
 
@Puppy If it's imaginary why can't they leave then?
Why is it such a big deal?
 
@Puppy how much oil do you have
 
well, they can leave Scotland.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel well, if scotland can do it, why can't all the other geographical areas that voted remain?
 
4:37 PM
You can't have it both ways. Either borders and nations means something and then changing them is important or they don't and that's it.
 
@LucDanton Scotland doesn't have anywhere near enough- in the last independence referendum they argued that the oil income would be enough, but then the oil price crashed massively and North Sea oil is declining hugely.
 
@Ell The separation is political and historical, not geographical.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Because first you have to define a "they", and that definition requires the border to be meaningful in the first place.
 
hm, the motorbike intercoms aren't that expensive
 
@EtiennedeMartel Historical is irrelevant.
 
4:39 PM
@Puppy fisheries in your bathtub then?
 
@Ell The EU isn't a federation as much as it is an economic alliance. It doesn't have real power. I think it's important to agree on common standards and practices in trade and international relations.
 
@LucDanton I think that Puppyland would be a software exporter.
@EtiennedeMartel You mean apart from EU law superseding national law, EU courts being the highest courts, etc?
 
what about the tourist appeal
 
@Puppy There's a lot of areas where EU law doesn't apply.
The EU is about free trade and movement.
 
that only says that they don't have total power.
frankly I'd gladly give the EU more power and my personal politics are much more in line with Scotland
 
4:42 PM
So you're more of the "my individual identity doesn't matter in the larger scope of national unity"?
 
not so much
more like, "the people of our nation are grouped by identity, not the patch of mud on which they reside"
 
You're a true Brit.
 
but realistically, apart from the fact that I think that Scottish independence is really dumb
it's not really feasible for them to have a referendum every time we do anything they don't like
 
@Puppy best have a referendum to see if they agree with that though
 
they already have more power than English people and they'd basically just be endlessly leveraging leaving for more and more
 
4:54 PM
@Puppy doesn't the SNP have disproportionately larger representation in Parliament?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wouldn't surprise me, but the real issue is that they get to have two Parliaments- the regular one and their special devolved one.
I don't get to vote on issues affecting only Scotland, but they get to vote on issues that only affect Bristol
 
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