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00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

12:09 AM
@Mysticial clearly pifast is better because it has fast in the name
 
@orlp PiFast is actually a very impressive program. If I throw out all the SIMD, and parallelism, and use only scalar-x86 instructions to make things apples-to-apples. My program couldn't beat PiFast until like the latest version. (released last year) PiFast hasn't been updated since 2003. And I have better compilers.
QuickPi is faster then PiFast, but it uses SSE3.
When I first stated getting into this stuff back in like 2005-ish, I remember getting my working Chudnovsky implementation to run Pi to 1 million digits. And then being completely demoralized when I ran it against PiFast and saw that it was quite literally 10x faster. It wasn't funny at all at the time. (though now it is)
 
Somewhere down the line, I gave up trying to beat PiFast on the same playing field and started focusing on SSE, x64, and parallelism.
 
nwp
12:27 AM
heh, I just got a Deathwing
 
Part of the reason why I gave up is because I was using a slower multiplication algorithm that used a lot less memory. I did that to make the program scale better on multicore. But it was a handicap on the legacy x86 which I didn't care enough to handle separately.
 
the event horizon when you are releasing your own software - you have thought that you have finished multiple times, but each time you have found a new bug
 
Eventually, I did manage to beat PiFast on the same scalar-x86 code. But only with modern compilers and utilizing several algorithms which didn't even exist at the time PiFast was written.
 
I don't see why &typeid(A) and &typeid(B) would point to the same object. But even if they would, I don't see why that matters, because it would only change the result of the comparison (true or false). — jotik 20 mins ago
This guy is mentally impaired or sth.
 
@Columbo Being mentally impaired is a requirement for using C++.
6
 
12:39 AM
room topic
 
@Mysticial best way to remain new... -.-;
 
ScY
12:58 AM
@nwp what deck are you playing?
 
nwp
@ScY whatever the quest wants me to play
 
ScY
@nwp same boat. can't really play the game with no good cards :(
 
nwp
you only need 1 good card, your credit card
 
@nwp IRTA god card and got excited for YuGiOh :(
 
1:05 AM
@nwp gratz
 
@Borgleader hehe
-6
Q: Understand polymorphism in structures c++

Hani GocIntroduction We have two structures Base and Deriv. Deriv inherits from the Base structure. In the following code we have: Deriv *dp = new Deriv; Base *bp = (Base*)dp; both the Base pointer and Deriv pointer hold the same address. The output of the program is : A 10 Now suppose we comme...

This one was fun
 
ScY
lol the ignorance
 
I really enjoyed how angry he got
 
ScY
it's in the holy book. NEVER question the holy book
 
@jaggedSpire Hoooooooooooooo boy
 
1:17 AM
@jaggedSpire starred, this is p funny
 
1:44 AM
@Mysticial Then what does C need? Lunacy?
 
I always thought that was what it bestowed
 
C requires the programmer to understand and accept that nothing is real and fdblfbhr oh my god he comes
4
 
Hmm. I just reran my PiFast vs. scalar-x86 benchmarks. The difference is actually a lot closer than I thought. And it seems my latest trunk build has regressed by about 1%.
 
@Mysticial what kind of duration benchmarks do you run usually?
from my experience 1% is pretty much always within measurement error
 
I'm not entirely surprised by the 1% regression. There was a lot of back-end refactoring. And the super-optimizer runs multi-threaded. So it doesn't optimize for the single-threaded case like this benchmark does.
 
2:04 AM
You better be statically testing the fuck out of that to claim a 1% performance differential
 
@Mikhail Before I ran those tests, I ran about 5 of them on my main box. And the regression was consistently 1%. So I redid the benchmarks on my sterile box. (the one in that screenshot)
 
It seems to have regressed multi-threaded as well.
Maybe this has to do with the tuning being done on a Core 2 Quad instead of Haswell.
 
"overfitting"
Would be cool if Intel let you merge PGO on a per-processor basis
 
2:10 AM
That screenshot is from the future
 
@Mikhail Yeah, every time I go in and out of Linux, the clock shifts forward by a few hours.
142
Q: Clock time is off on dual boot

Bill WaldenDual boot system Windows XP Pro and Ubuntu 12.04. I have the bios set for the correct time and Ubuntu set for US Eastern time. Ubuntu will boot up and the time will be off by -4 hours. If I correct the time in Ubuntu then when I boot up in Windows XP the time will be off by + 4 hours. This is...

 
Honestly, I can't read the screenshot, that but basically all claims of 1% faster would sound a lot more believable if you had a statistical test to back them up.
 
@Mikhail I have about 12 data points. All of which are almost exactly 1%. That's enough for me given that I have no intention to actually fix it.
Now if it was 1% regression on the AVX2 Haswell binary. Then I'd give more of a shit.
 
On an unrelated note, we should do more experiments were we inline the entirety of a complex program. A few years ago the compiler would crash, but maybe today it won't. Also I have access to wanton amounts of RAM.
 
@Mikhail problem with inlining is that code size blows up
 
2:17 AM
but LTO!
 
and I don't just mean 'oh noes my hard drive'
and also not
'oh noes my ramsies'
bigger code size = more cache pressure
and more bandwidth
code is data as well, and also needs to be loaded/cached
 
I agree 100% with everything you've said. But now we live in a future were we could imagine the compiler figuring out how to best compartmentalize our code.
 
I spent some time tweaking the inlining parameters for ICC. And the best (for performance) was actually less than the inlining defaults set by ICC.
 
one thing I'm excited about in the Mill CPU is that function calls are supposedly super cheap
 
And at the extreme, -Os only slowed the program down by like 0.5% - but not statistically significant from zero.
 
2:21 AM
saving/restoring registers is an abomination
 
The reason being that everything that needed to be inlined has already been force-inlined. So all the extra inlining by ICC was largely extraneous.
 
The benefits of inlining will depend a lot on the program. In a better world we wouldn't need to guess, but rather the compiler would figure this out.
Does Intel's PGO do this?
 
No idea. I don't use PGO since it's annoying as hell.
I played around with PGO back in like 2008-ish. The speedup was indistinguishable from zero, though leaning slightly in the positive direction.
So I basically said fuck it with PGO.
 
> The speedup was indistinguishable from zero, though leaning slightly in the positive direction.
bit contradictionary :)
 
@orlp Think of it as 0.1 with standard deviation 0.5 over 100 data points.
 
2:25 AM
I got a 3%, once in 2012
 
Oh, that's a lot.
 
I never tried PGO
I think it's fundamentally flawed without having an accurate simulator of a certain chip
you can't observe a CPU without influencing it
 
@orlp I did a long time ago (when it was quite new). For my code it seemed to have a negative impact at least as often as not.
 
@Mysticial am I the only one that favours mean deviation over standard deviation?
 
That would make you a standard deviant
 
2:29 AM
ayy
 
I've noticed that code that uses the x87 FPU is really sensitive to the ability of the compiler. Whereas SSE is much more consistent. I think the reason is because of how fucked up the FPU stack is with all those rotations, exchanges, and spills.
And the fact that modern compilers don't really give a fuck about it anymore.
 
What does that mean? Like the code isn't compiling optimally?
 
MSVC doesn't even try to align FPU spills anymore.
@Mikhail Finding the "optimal" way to compile for the x87 FPU is much more difficult than with (scalar) SSE. (no auto-vectorization)
 
@Mikhail ...nor even very close to it. Using x87 well at all is a serious PITA.
 
Are spills avoided when using fast-math?
 
2:36 AM
Live Fast, Calculate Faster
 
@Mikhail unless I'm confused, I don't believe spills affect correctness of the result
fast-math enables all kinds of stuff that isn't strictly IEEE754 correct, but speeds things up
e.g. x*x*x*x becoming (x*x)*(x*x)
 
Isn't a spill when it needs to use the 80 bit value?
 
SSE instructions allow any register to be accessed equally, whereas the FPU requires pretty much everything to through the top of the stack. So the location of stuff matters. That's a bitch to do by hand, and possibly an even bigger bitch to tell a compiler to do efficiently.
I'm talking about having the FPU in double-precision mode. So no 80-bit extended precision.
 
@Mysticial Extended precision or otherwise doesn't matter a lot in register allocation--same stack either way.
 
@JerryCoffin How do you even do register allocation on the FPU stack while taking into account for the cost of exchanges (which have zero latency, but still need to be decoded)?
Or is FPU code not decoder-bound so you can have as many exchanges as you want and the processor wouldn't give a fuck.
 
2:49 AM
@Mysticial At least when I was doing it in assembly language, the FPU was essentially never decode bound. I think the same is probably true even today. There are a few where reciprocal throughput is a 0.5, but even fadds are 1, so about the best you hope for is IPC=1. I grew up on HP calculators, so I mostly just did the obvious encoding, so (for example) a+b*(c+d) was fld c; fld d; fadd; fld b; fmul; fld a; fadd. More often than not, that was already at least as good as the compiler did.
 
@JerryCoffin I think compilers can probably do a bit better by fusing the loads as memory operands even if it results in some extra zero-latency fxch. But I never really tried to study it because SSE was already a thing by the time I started programming.
 
@Mysticial I'm sure better is at least theoretically possible. When I tested my code against the best compilers of the time (ICC, Watcom, occasionally Metaware) I saw code that was a lot more complex, but it rarely seemed to run noticeably faster (and even when it did, it was usually by such a small margin it was hard to confirm, not to mention caring).
 
3:05 AM
Get your hot fixes! Fresh off the press!
 
One more point though: I'm pretty sure in most cases, one of two bottlenecks applied. For simple computations, just reading the data from memory dominated. For complex calculations, it was all about simply executing the instructions themselves. Optimizing load order to save half a cycle doesn't help a lot if it's immediately followed by (for example) an fsincos.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh aha... fsincos... ahahahahahaha
 
What is wrong with fsincos? Typically, I've optimized it out on the math end...
 
the trigonometry functions on x87 are fun
 
3:22 AM
I found a few values where atan on NVIDIA and Intel disagree despite both supposedly being IEEE compliant. The correct value was somewhere in between (according to Mathematica)
 
NVIDIA floating point error in conformant mode is maximum 1 or 2 ULP IIRC
Yeah, 2 for atan.
 
3:51 AM
I wonder if the poor ULP is due to using interpolation to evaluate the function rather than an iterative technique
I would tell nvidia to get their shit straight but they seem to rolling in cash
 
@Mikhail Wouldn't require even higher internal precision?
I don't know how much extra precision is required to get even something like pow(a, b) to be +/- 1 ulp.
But when I try implementing one myself, I end up losing on the order of like 4 bits even when I'm being careful with numerically unstable cases.
 
we need a boost::noncopyable in the STL
 
user406009
@Mikhail I mean, we have = delete.
 
@Mikhail The policy of nvidia is to provide decent precision but maximum speed as this is the common use case of their hardware. Nothing prevents you from writing your own, slower but correct version of those functions.
 
user406009
Which is better than noncopyable in many ways.
 
user406009
4:04 AM
Better error diagnostics for one.
 
@Lalaland Boost maps it to =delete. I think it is sufficiently useful to be in the STL.
 
user406009
For interest's sake, what is the advantage of noncopyable over just using =delete?
 
Its a shortcut
You need the class name etc for the =delete thing
#if !defined(BOOST_NO_CXX11_DELETED_FUNCTIONS)
noncopyable( const noncopyable& ) = delete;
noncopyable& operator=( const noncopyable& ) = delete;
#else
 
user406009
Yeah. There is a lot of unnecessary verbage in C++.
 
user406009
I really wish we could merge our .h and .cpp files.
 
4:07 AM
I don't know about that one. For the case of headers they are already merged, and that compile time
 
user406009
#modulesWillSaveUs
 
4:30 AM
I'm pretty sure the lack of modules was solved with the introduction of [[maybe_unused]] in C++17
man some of these are great
 
user406009
@Mikhail ?
 
(it was a joke)
Some of these attributes can be used as passive aggressive comments, like ` [[noreturn]] `
 
user406009
I wonder if the standard committee will ever just give up on modules.
 
[[marriage_is_a_mistake]]
 
user406009
[[cpp_is_a_mistake]]
 
4:34 AM
[[noreturn]]
 
@AldwinCheung Ohh.. HK based C++ programmer... that's really awesome... but looks like many C++ coders leave HK because they don't get decent pay...
 
Uh, not a problem in finance
 
user406009
Eh, usually not the best idea to make assumptions based on the country someone lives in.
 
Yeah, I would spend more time worrying about his immortal soul. Like 1/3 of C++ programmers are in finance.
 
user406009
@Mikhail Well, considering this is a C++ chat, he has probably already sold his soul to MSVC
 
4:39 AM
Yeah, I lost my frame pointer at age 15
warning : "constexpr" is ignored here in Microsoft mode
3
^ Lol wtf is this
 
 
ScY
That feeling when you haven't done anything for the day
 
6:21 AM
@Borgleader Haha.
^ So The Guardian is now justifying punching people for their opinions? FFS.
 
7:11 AM
Daily reminder that we live in a hyper normalized society
 
@Mikhail ...and to go with it, a reminder that this is hardly what you'd call dependable evidence from a disinterested party.
 
7:41 AM
Hi guise
Just made the vending machine overflow while getting my coke
 
8:32 AM
interesting aspect of increasing temperatures in the arctic from a reddit comment
> I currently work on the anthrax outbreaks that started in Siberia last summer after a big Arctic heatwave which made dead bodies of reindeer and other hosts locked in the permafrost start thawing.
As they do so, they release anthrax spores into the environment from hundreds and thousands of years of accumulated victims of this disease which used to be called "Siberian plague" in Russian.
Now the spores come back all at once and ..it is sort of a problem.
 
So, I need to draw three, 2D OpenGL megapixels images on-top of each other with some alpha blending. Whats the best strategy?
 
@rachel @mightybattlecat Rapists are just misunderstood pro-lifers who can't get a woman to procreate with. Why don't we talk about Islam?
what the hell is the world trying to do
9 messages moved to bin
@wilx I'm hearing more of that "Yas now we can punch too". People fail to realize that makes them the nazis, IYAM
 
@sehe IYAM?
Where do you people get these abbreviations?
 
IDK, JFGI, ICBWT
(I made up the second one, but you'll work it out)
 
8:50 AM
@sehe "If you ask me." Geebus.
@sehe Not even the Urban dictionary knows about "ICBWT".
 
Keep me posted. It's important.
 
@sehe It is. You are using words and expressions that I do not understand! :)
 
It's stopping us from having a meaningful conversation. Gasp.
 
@sehe I am glad that you understand!
 
I'm heavily invested in this.
 
user6438653
9:05 AM
Lingerie<C++>
5
 
@sehe This brings tears into my eyes. ;_;
 
@shad0wk That's what we wear. But we don't advertise it because it would bring the wrong audience
 
@sehe Don't worry, I already sometimes do that job.
 
user6438653
haha
 
@sehe I don't think the word has any clue at this ploint
 
9:07 AM
Not even any ls it seems
 
@sehe fixd
 
:)
@BartekBanachewicz That's not the part that's amazing (I don't think the world (as in, humanity) ever had a clue).
It's just that humanity seemingly discovered a new-found need to assert its ignorance so adamantly.
 
user6438653
9:20 AM
bye
 
nwp
10:15 AM
If your bio is the truth, then I applaud you as I couldn't believe you could exist! — DeiDei 6 mins ago
3
 
> Why not just scrap C and start over. We all know that the language is garbage. Look at you Morons arguing over the problems with creating a new variable type. Loathsome.. Loathsome... Loathsome...
Constructive comments in the Future Proposals forum.
Reviving a thread that was dead since 2012 just for that.
 
good jerb msvc:
error C3538: in a declarator-list 'auto' must always deduce to the same type
         could be 'unsigned __int64'
         or       'unsigned __int64'
5
 
Ven
Hi
 
10:33 AM
Hi :)
 
user1804599
10:44 AM
hi
 
The sore muscles in my legs are getting better, but I'm having a headache again.
 
11:11 AM
@Luc is it just me or does your extract.awk only work if the doc comments are not indented?
 
11:25 AM
@orlp Sounds like something out of a game :p
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah I think that’s right
 
Ven
do we have a mongo-debunking article at hand?
i got zealots on my hands
 
11:51 AM
@LucDanton I took the liberty to "fix" it.
BEGIN { FS=" +" }
/^ *\/\*\* *$/ { select=1; next }
/^ +\*\/ *$/  { select=0; print ""; next }
select==1 && /^ +\*/ { print substr($0, index($0, $2)+2) }
 
that would eat a badly indented comment block but oh well :)
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes eww
 
Oh, right! You don't indent at namespaces, do you?
That explains it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yesh, but I could be documenting indented things still in the future
 
@Xeo It wouldn't be so disgusting if it didn't need so many escapes.
 
11:55 AM
like a member something or other
 
Suppose % is now the regex zero-or-many operator: ^ %/** %$
/**, possibly braced by spaces.
Space is pretty much the only character that doesn't need escaping there.
 
user1804599
@Ven btw did you ever use Firebase
 
but is /dev/null web scale?
 
12:30 PM
@Columbo Ok, I've got to admit it: I'm currently in the middle of a language-lawyer level discussion ._____.
 
@Morwenn Barrister or Solicitor?
 
@Mgetz I don't get the reference.
 
@Morwenn Barristers are court room lawyers that argue over what is legal, solicitors give legal advice and draft wills and such
 
12:51 PM
@Morwenn Fantastic, but you can't by any chance share that
Oh wait, std-discussion
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes awkward
Let's rename the room Ward<awk>
@nwp Wow. That bio is quite something
 
1:08 PM
@Columbo Damn, you're fast D:
 
1:26 PM
@Morwenn Not really, I subscribed to it
 
Still :p
 
nwp
template <class T>
void reset_to_default(T &t){
	t.~T();
	new (&t) T{};
}
on a scale from haskell to ruby, how terrible is this?
 
@nwp PHP
 
nwp
ouch
 
you asked
 
1:35 PM
@nwp Isn't that just std::destroy_at followed by value initialization? :p
 
@nwp if you check for noexcept it changes from "totally unusable" to "somewhat tolerable"
 
@nwp not exception safe, doing a t = std::move(T{}); would be better. unless you absolutely need to destroy before default initializing a new value
 
nwp
@Morwenn C++17 is just a pipe dream, it will never take off!
 
nwp
@ratchetfreak I would, except T is not well behaved
 
1:38 PM
@ratchetfreak it's a temporary already, don't move it
 
user1804599
Can Markdown parsing fail?
 
nwp
@rightfold never
 
user1804599
OK.
 
@nwp T tmp; std::swap(tmp, t);?
 
Markdown parsing fails even when it succeeds
3
 
nwp
1:40 PM
@ratchetfreak I think that would work and be much less insane.
 
the language that a markdown parser accepts is all strings
 
@nwp don't make it generic then
if you're doing this when thinking of a specific type
 
nwp
@milleniumbug you are right, I just wrote the swap thing and removed the reset function
 
@nwp std::exchange(t, T{});
 
nwp
@Morwenn I should really sit down and read through all the standard utility stuff, so many things I don't know about
 
1:52 PM
@nwp Just closely follow the standardization process, and you'll end up knowing what's already existing and has problems (almost everything already existing), and you will know about the new features.
Even if you don't remember the details, you'll more or less know what exists :p
 
2:19 PM
GCC does not like inheriting constructors in variadic using decls either
 
D:
 
reading the spec a bit I may file something, cos if this works unvariadically and if pack expansion is the same as everywhere else it should work in the variadic case as well
it’s filed already
yeah okay pack expansion of using-decls is straightforward
 
2:34 PM
@Morwenn or hang out in a place where people regularly rant about the standardization process
 
@ratchetfreak Yeah, but ten you'll miss the things people don't complain about :o
 
...so none of C++
:D
 
mmh I don’t have deduction guides yet for my own datatypes (optional and variant being the big ones), I’m not sure which form I should give them
 
3:17 PM
Good morning
Can I theoretically define my own std::rank specialization?
 
No.
I think the only type trait that can be user-specialized is common_type.
 
3:33 PM
Right.
 
Thanks
 
There's a C# trend in my team
For GUI tools or smth
And, obviously since we work on a C++ lib... Some components will have a usage in both the C++ lib and the C# tools
Which means C#/C++ interop. Is C++/CLI painful? /cc @TonyTheLion
 
@LucDanton I think I'm going to include preambles and titles and such in the public headers, in order to give each of them its own page, and then just have them all directly in the reference TOC.
 
@Rerito s/trend/infection/
 
@JerryCoffin It begins to look like so
Unfortunately I'm immune to this disease
 
@Rerito Doesn't seem unfortunate to me.
 
4:09 PM
Well as long as I'm not the one touching it... However I'm working on a project on the C++ side and if I have to manage the interop
I'm gonna shit bricks
 
C++/CLI is ok if you stick to using it exclusively as an interop layer.
 
So I have 3 layers
The C# tool (hehe, tool), the interop (C++/CLI/ and the native code (C++)
 
@Mgetz 270GB repos :o
 
4:29 PM
Aaaaaa
Wot
Never had any issue pushing to github and now it gives me access denied which means that I have to create my own public key????
Guys, trust me, never use multiple git users on a single apple machine
 
> apple
oh well
 
Nevermind
I was using SSH instead of HTTPS as recommended by Github
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes definitively not my kind of things, too Doxygen-ish
 
@Shoe s/multiple git users on a single /an /
 
@Shoe ssh is easier imo
@JerryCoffin well said
... once I eventually worked out what you were saying :P
 
4:42 PM
@thecoshman Technically, there's not all that much wrong with the machine itself. You just need to get rid of the Apple software on it and install a decent OS to get the full benefit of the hardware's mediocrity.
 
@Shoe Typing your password all the time sucks.
 
Unless your password is one character. Which is also super secure, because nobody and nothing will expect your password to be one character long.
8
 
@Columbo My password is the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody expects....
 
user1804599
4:59 PM
@Rerito RIP
 
user1804599
@Rerito You're taking a horrible horrible language and run it on a horrible horrible platform, of course it's painful.
 
 
@JerryCoffin My password is "Wendesday" for obvious reasons
Dictionary attacks fail hopelessly!
 
Why does XKCD not onebox anymore?
 
It 404'ed.
 
@milleniumbug I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed changes to git to help it handle repos of that size
that said... seriously use some submodules
 
@набиячлэвэли This is setting off alarms in my head.
 
5:19 PM
@набиячлэвэли https\
 
@JerryCoffin sigh
@Mgetz what about it
 
@набиячлэвэли hmm seems to be more than that actually, seems to be a rewrite rule fail on xkcd's side
 
I checked in sandbox: neither xkcd.com/1794 or xkcd.com/1794 will onebox
 
(first has https second is plain http
 
5:21 PM
...but that does.
 
that's just the image onebox
but the proper xkcd onebox will include the alt text
 
@ratchetfreak Are you planning to change your name to Captain Obvious soon?
@ratchetfreak After the "alternate facts" nonsense, SO has decided that "alternate" ... anything is unacceptable.
 
@JerryCoffin Including you: alternatively funny
 
@набиячлэвэли I'm not funny at all.
 
@JerryCoffin Exactly my point
 
5:30 PM
@набиячлэвэли So you make it a point to explicitly state the blindingly obvious?
 
@JerryCoffin Look how observant he is, now that daddy's gone!
 
@набиячлэвэли Who's your daddy?
 
@JerryCoffin That was a reference you clearly didn't get :v
 
@JerryCoffin Aren't the alarms exponential?
 
Xeo
Aww yeah, time for Evil Loli doing Evil Things
 
5:38 PM
@Mysticial I don't think they're explicitly defined that way, but yeah, pretty much anyway.
 
@Xeo If Aoi Yuki had more roles, she'd be the loli queen - specifically the vampire loli queen.
Though I'm saying that probably because I rewatched the second half of Owari no Seraph yesterday. She voices the Krul and remembered that she also voices the main character in Dance in the Vampire Bund.
 
@Xeo You call that a smile?
 
Xeo
This series is so good.
 
5:55 PM
@Borgleader
@Bathsheba just tested that, and I can confirm it is indeed super fast. — PC Luddite 2 hours ago
 
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