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12:06 AM
Someone free me from this mortal coil
 
@LucDanton neat, which one?
 
12:29 AM
@PatrickM'Bongo The Minstrel, I had my eye on it for a long time and the updated effects won me over
 
tfw python doesn't have multiline comments, but instead it's a "Pro Tip" to just use a docstring to comment things out.
WTF is this language.
7
 
1:15 AM
Just use multiple single line comments
 
@ThePhD starred because double points for out of context application to C++
 
 
3 hours later…
3:49 AM
@sehe Moving between panes is just one aspect of issue. Another one is making splits. Also clipboards, automation via macro record, scripts, etc, etc.
 
4:02 AM
 
5:00 AM
Good Morning Vietnam!
Good afternoon Vietnam! :-)
The miracles of timing!
 
clean water has been prepared for the 2 chickens, but in reality flocks of other birds have been enjoying the free clean water every day too
 
Sam
5:58 AM
Morning folks!
Good evening @Telkitty
@JerryCoffin really!
 
@Sam :D
 
6:16 AM
@PatrickM'Bongo another Halloween another cosmetic upgrade
 
whats up guys
 
user1804599
@ThePhD welcome to Python
 
user1804599
Piece of shit
 
6:42 AM
> Python: There's only one way to do things, but it won't ever be intuitive
 
python is great tool for making building scripts
 
Whats a good way to get away from web dev and into desktop or integrated systems? I've been doing a lot of C# lately and majority seems to be ASP.NET stuff
 
7:00 AM
@ProblemSlover It makes a fantastic scripting language because it doesn't need much configuration or setup. But eventually you need to touch memory, or optimize better than the interpreter/compiler. That's when scripting languages get messy.
#deadhorse
 
@Aaron3468 come on man. WEll I haven't gone that far using python lol
 
I'm referring to my use of the classic argument "Scripting languages are great until they aren't". They're quite fast nowadays, and the only real drawbacks are the result of mostly choosing convenience over performance in their design. Coding languages usually make the opposite choice.
You'll do fine :) If you have questions about python, I'm always willing to lend a hand when possible
 
Sam
@Telkitty ;)
@TeeSee cool..!! you say..
 
@Aaron3468 Sure man. You are my big python Bro ;)
 
@Telkitty You are such a bird lady.
 
7:13 AM
Google pushes 4 messaging apps. It's insane
 
7:24 AM
Hi folks
 
Ven
hi brorito
 
Robot's sites are blocked by the proxy here
cannot browse stuff on nonius :(
 
@ProblemSlover because we totally need another million messaging apps of course ...
@wilx I love animals in general, not just birds ...
 
8:01 AM
@Feeds I swear that's a repost... is you sick again feeds?
 
@Telkitty ?
 
@thecoshman or a very similar strip, the one before is about spiders and dinosaurs
 
@rightfold lisp?
 
Ven
@thecoshman well yes
 
user1804599
8:04 AM
@thecoshman This game is written in Emacs Lisp.
 
fascinating
 
user1804599
M-x dunnet
 
Guys, look what Cicada found: dl.acm.org/…
 
Ven
[10:11 AM] Fatima von Flammkuchen: Can someone send a message to @LucDanton
[10:11 AM] Fatima von Flammkuchen: > To the eye of a developer used to more modern languages that also shows some bad choices in the design of the Erlang syntax.
 
@PatrickM'Bongo banned once again? :D
 
user1804599
8:25 AM
 
user1804599
I like that everybody sees a different pizza.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
9:12 AM
@sehe multiplication table:
 
user1804599
 
lol, friend at work somehow broke his sudo, he needs to be able to sudo to fix his sudo so he can sudo
 
user1804599
or use su
 
ah, I mentioned that to him earlier, but he didn't actually do it
 
user1804599
?tag doit
 
9:21 AM
@thecoshman ...trivial, boot into runlevel 1
 
nah, su root and fix
@rightfold what am I looking at here?
 
@thecoshman Numbers as shapes, multiplication table
 
user1804599
9:42 AM
@thecoshman The dots represent the number, the colored shapes (or juxtaposition for 2) its prime factors.
 
WHAT IS UP
FERMI DIRAC TIMMEEEEEE
What do you call a depressive electron
 
user1804599
For example, six is a two triangles (3) juxtaposed (2), i.e. 3 * 2 = 6.
 
redundant
 
user1804599
15 is 3 (triangle) * 5 (pentagon).
 
@Rerito lolwut why?
Btw, you can always browse the doc sources on github. It's just markdown.
And they're included in the release zips
 
user1804599
9:55 AM
98
Q: Previous company name is ISIS, how to list on CV?

KogeshoThe previous company I worked at for 6 months is named ISIS. It was founded way before the terrorist organization of course, and now it is a bad coincidence that I list ISIS as work experience on my CV. I am afraid of this name affecting my future job applications as the name ISIS is associated ...

4
 
@Griwes Could you have used the contrapositive to deduce that this isn't the bug you've wandered into? :-) — Columbo 16 hours ago
Goddammit.
 
10:06 AM
Trump corp have issued a statement saying it doesn't matter if they run Exchange on Win 2003 internet because they… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/788489976266780672
 
10:22 AM
@набиячлэвэли yeah, that makes more sense than the image
 
@TeslaMotors Autopilot saves another life. Dare folk to RT that as much as previous context-free clickbait https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/1785904/ @elonmusk
neat story
 
nwp
10:33 AM
@набиячлэвэли incrementing numbers would be a pain, because it involves factorization
 
nwp
11:24 AM
There should be std::experimental::string that supports all the interactions with std::experimental::string_view. And there should probably be an easy switch between using std::experimental and std.
 
failed the driving test again
 
user1804599
> I sincerely hope someone does in fact make a die with a thousand sides as the image of a grapefruit-sized die rolling around a table makes me chuckle.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, flamingdangerzone and all .io domains are blocked here
Surely have something to do with "flaming" or "danger"
 
Can you tell your firewall guys that they are retarded and that they should stop being retarded? :|
 
No I can't
Well yes I can but they wouldn't change a thing anyway
 
11:43 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Was it because there is an upper bound on speed
 
user1804599
I wish I had a rectum.
 
rectum 42;
 
@PatrickM'Bongo actually I failed because I was too slow
4
 
not sure if starbait
 
I was supposed to do one of the excercises at minimum 50kph twice. I did 48, 51 and 49.
 
nwp
11:47 AM
did they tell you after the first one that you need to go faster?
 
why have those exercises in the first place?
 
@nwp yea
There's a display with your speed there
@ratchetfreak well it's a test that's supposed to show if you can safely go around an obstacle
 
safest way to deal with obstacles is to slow down
no wonder all cars in movies never brake for anything
 
@ratchetfreak yeah, well, the speed for that is measured on the entry for the excercise, you're supposed to get off the gas once you pass it at at least 50kph
I did it a tad too soon and started slowing down before I was supposed to
 
i cannot find anywhere in the standard that vector::insert(..., position) preserves the relative order of the elements after the insertion position. Is this requirement specified somewhere?
The only thing specified is that the complexity of vector::insert is O(N + size()) where N is the number of elements being inserted, but this allows a O(N) implementation which is not stable.
 
11:55 AM
@BartekBanachewicz well we all know that :P
was this bike test?
 
eh fuck that next one in two weeks again
I feel optimistic, it was much better than the first one
 
I need to stop being lazy and book bike theory test :|
 
@gnzlbg I think the key part is "into a strictly linear arrangement".
 
it was just a silly mistake, I didn't practice with such a measuring device
I did way over 60kph in training but that was on dry pavement on a bike I knew well
 
11:57 AM
@Griwes but that still allows inserting the new elements at the end of a vector, and then swapping them with the ones at the insertion position
 
@gnzlbg That violates the strict linear arrangement.
 
you break the relative order of the elements after the insertion point, but the elements are still in a linear arrangement
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz One could argue it is the driving teacher's job to make sure you are well prepared and don't fail because of silly mistakes.
 
...they are in a different linear arrangement.
 
it doesn't say the arrangement must be the same
just that it must be linear (which still is)
 
nwp
11:58 AM
but that probably hurts them because it reduces their income
 
@gnzlbg It says "strict".
 
@gnzlbg why would it reorder the elements
 
> Effects: Inserts a copy of t before p.
 
@Griwes what does strict means in this context? without holes? the elements are in a linear arrangement without holes
 
12:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz what was that manoeuvre?
 
@Griwes it doesn't say that it needs to move all elements after p N times and preserve their order
 
@BogdanAlexandru yes, it's pretty cool
 
@AndyProwl because it is faster, instead of shifting all elements after the insertion point by the number of inserted elements, you just need to swap the number of inserted elements
 
@gnzlbg That changes the linear arrangement. sigh
 
I mean stable_sort is pretty clear in that the relative order of the elements must be preserved, and sort doesn't mention it at all
 
12:02 PM
@gnzlbg what does "swap the number of inserted elements" mean
 
There's nothing in the effects that says "the ordering is changed".
 
@gnzlbg yeah but there's a "sorting" criterion there
 
@Griwes I understand linear arrangement as "the elements must be arranged linearly in memory", and "strict linear arrangement" as "without holes".
 
@gnzlbg ...that's... completely different.
 
@Griwes sort is unstable but a stable sort is a perfectly valid sort
it is unspecified in case someone discovers a stable sort algorithm that is faster than an unstable one
for stable_sort the guarantee is explicit
 
12:03 PM
I mean what's the point of a sequence container that changes the order of its elements
 
I am just saying, that insert just guarantees that the elements you insert will be at position p
 
pointers into that collection would suddenly point to wrong stuff even if no reallocation occurs
 
insert doesn't guarantee that
it explicitly says that the iterators after the insertion point might will be invalidated
 
eel.is/c++draft/vector#modifiers-2 this explicitly confirms that.
 
(will)
 
12:04 PM
@gnzlbg on reallocation
 
@gnzlbg ...this is 100% obvious
 
@AndyProwl no
 
@AndyProwl No, iterators after the insertion point are invalidated.
Only the ones before it are not invalidated.
 
@Griwes Also pointers?
 
@AndyProwl yes, its a vector
 
12:05 PM
okay
well, yeah of course
cause elements are overwritten
 
so.. if the iterators are already invalidated, the question becomes, can the relative order of the elements be affected by insert or not?
 
no?
it would be completely retarded
 
if it can, you can implement insert in O(N), if it cannot, you need a O(N + size()) implementation
 
@gnzlbg Find me a part of the standard that allows that.
I'm not seeing any.
 
@Griwes the same part that allows sort to use a stable sort algorithm
its unspecified AFAIK
 
12:06 PM
...
 
there is no part in the standard that says vector::insert is stable AFAIK
 
give me a sec
 
which is retarded
 
so would push_front() on a deque scramble everything after it?
 
(btw I am writing a static_vector proposal)
so... I am running into these things...
@AndyProwl no, because a deque guarantees that iterators are not invalidated
 
12:07 PM
@gnzlbg Is there a O(n log n) stable sort algorithm?
 
j0h
Can I write to a ReadOnly File, on a read only filesystem? (like ignore the FS flags?(
 
@Griwes yes
grailsort for example is deterministic O(NlogN)
and constant space
 
"stable" is something that makes sense when you have an ordering criterion
 
the constants are bigger than introsort though
 
there is no sorting criterion in a vector
 
user1804599
 
@Griwes I was kind of expecting the specification of insert to say "Stably inserts x at position"
 
It inserts at position.
 
But it doesn't say "stably", and the complexity allows a faster unstable implementation, that no single standard library uses
 
1 min ago, by Andy Prowl
"stable" is something that makes sense when you have an ordering criterion
 
12:09 PM
That should be obvious for everyone.
 
it doesn't say "stably" because it makes no sense
 
At position in that given sequence.
If you do it unstably, then you insert it at that position in a different sequence.
 
Hm
 
stable means wrt to some sorting criterion
 
let's not get down to the level of specifying obvious things
 
12:11 PM
"Inserts a copy of t before p." thats all it says
 
Yes.
 
20 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@ratchetfreak well it's a test that's supposed to show if you can safely go around an obstacle
 
@gnzlbg Is that a vector with embedded storage?
 
@Griwes yes
 
Badware, for the same reasons array is usually very bad.
O(n) move operations.
 
12:12 PM
@nwp meh. One could argue their job is teach you how to ride safely, not how to pass those tests
 
@Griwes same as std::vector with a POCMA false allocator
 
also even if for any reason the wording was ambiguous, the intent is pretty clear and there's plenty of code that works based on that assumption
 
@gnzlbg Then why do we need a separate thing?
 
you can't "invalidate indices" after an insertion
it just makes no sense
 
@AndyProwl They are invalidated. By one. (or n, for the countful overload) (after the insertion point)
 
12:13 PM
@Griwes Well, yeah, I ninja-quoted it
I meant "invalidate in unpredictable ways"
 
@Griwes its not a general purpose container, it makes sense if you don't have a heap, or want to put the vector elements in the static memory segment, or cannot tolerate the latency of allocations, or want easier serialization for network I/O...
 
@BartekBanachewicz so like, just swerving past a car like?
 
so its a very specific thing, small_vector is more useful
 
@gnzlbg Then why not just use a vector with an appropriate allocator?
 
because that doesnt work
 
12:14 PM
Why?
 
the vector growth policy makes writing a good allocator for that hard
 
I don't see why.
Also even if there's one case I can think of, that's more a thing to write a proposal for better container-allocator interface.
 
every implementation has a different growth policy, so the allocator needs to have more memory (possibly embedded) to support growing with it
 
You might want to ping Jonathan Wakely about that.
 
that is, if you want to have a vector with an upper bound of Capacity elements
the allocator might need 1.4 * Capacity, or 2* Capacity, or... depending of the vector implementation
because inserting that last element might make the allocator grow
 
12:16 PM
From what I understand what you basically need a way to be able to return the same buffer over and over again, and I don't think you can currently do that.
 
these vectors are also very small, so such a vector needs at least 3 words of storage more
 
Either way, having a specialized type for that weird specialized purpose feels very bad.
 
to implement this correctly the capacity would need to be part of the allocator, and not of the vector
and the same for the data pointer, that's not how current allocators are, nor how I think they should be
 
sounds like "too localized" to me
 
small_vector runs into the same issues
 
12:18 PM
No, to implement this correctly you need to talk with Jonathan Wakely about his future paper about this exact thing.
 
it needs to switch between the small vector optimization and an user provided allocator
 
Your problem lies in the container-allocator interface.
Not on the container level.
 
the zero cost abstraction is just an embedded C array + a size
there is no way to do that with an allocator + std::vector
 
In Oulu Jonathan said he'll be writing this for C++Next.
Oh come on.
"Zero cost abstraction" these days is nothing more but an excuse to write specialized badware and claim it's a very general tool (which it usually isn't).
It's worse than "in the cloud".
 
the vector has data() + size() + capacity(), all these would need to be in the allocator, small_vector runs into the same issues
 
12:19 PM
No.
You're trying to solve the wrong problem.
Next!
 
I'll ask Jonathan to review my proposal
 
...
 
@Griwes but everything is better "in the cloud"
 
currently i am only working on it with Casey
 
make sure you don't allow insert() to reorder elements
 
12:20 PM
...I hope I'll have a say in shooting it down. :|
Sorry, but this is truly a move in a terrible direction.
 
I hope you give it your best shot
 
We can't be putting specialized tools into the standard library.
 
I mean, if we improve allocators to make reusing std::vector then better for everyone
 
Especially when they have terrible, surprising semantics that break assumptions.
(Like std::array does.)
 
like what assumptions?
 
12:21 PM
@gnzlbg Then work on that!
 
O(N) moves?
 
Like the assumption that move operations don't throw and are O(1).
 
@Griwes that is a too hard problem, if we ever fix that, nobody prevents us for doing static_vector = std::vector<T, MagicAllocator>
@Griwes std::vector doesn't guarantee that move operations are O(1)
 
Xeo
moving a vector is guaranteed O(1) and noexcept
why wouldn't it be?
 
@Xeo if std::propagate_on_container_move_assignment<Allocator>::value == false
then you have to move the elements element-wise
you cannot just swap a pointer
 
12:23 PM
@Xeo OOM?
 
if the allocators do not compare equal, you don't even know what happens until run-time
 
extreme case I grant you
 
Grep the table for "constant".
@gnzlbg That's a dumb edge case.
And it's like 50% of what you need to have your thing.
(So it's already a move towards what you want.)
 
I am just saying, std::vector is already as broken as std::array
just because it works fine with std::allocator, doesn't mean it isn't broken
 
No.
 
12:25 PM
if anything, array and static_vector have a consistent move guarantee
always O(N)
with standard vector, you don't know, it depends on the allocator
 
It breaks that assumption only for an allocator of your kind.
Only.
I'm fine with that, because your allocator is not the default allocator.
 
for any Allocator with std::pocma<Allocator> == false
 
Xeo
@gnzlbg only if you use the version that changes the allocator for the new vector, AFAICS from the table
 
(And because non-experts don't reach into specialized allocators.)
@gnzlbg Yes. That's an "allocator of your kind".
 
Anyhow.. there are other issues, like exception-safety
 
12:27 PM
@thecoshman kinda
 
If anybody does this for regular allocators, they should be brutally murdered and their remains publicly displayed.
 
that also depends on the allocator
 
Please do work on getting the interfaces right.
Instead of adding a specialized thing.
 
@Griwes the thing is, the more powerful we make Allocators the more complicated the interfaces of std::vector gets
 
Basically, I'm for extending the interfaces to make it feasible for you to write an allocator like the one you want.
 
12:27 PM
i am not saying that it would be a bad thing, I think that would be good
 
AND
I am against putting such an allocator into the standard
 
but the exception safety, move semantics, complexities, ... of std::vector depend on the Allocator
 
and I am against putting a specialized container for this into the standard
 
@Griwes a stack/embedded allocator is way too useful, and way to hard to write
its something only standard library writers should be implementing
Nobody is saying, go on and use these things, its more of a... you will never need this, but if you do, don't worry, we have your back, because this stuff is hard to get right
small_vector, inline_vector, ... are very specialized, and hard to get right, but LLVM, Boost, EASTL, folly, ... they all have both, and they all get the hard pieces different
so depending on what you use, you either don't know the semantics, or you get subtly different semantics
 
@gnzlbg Write a proposal to add allocator_facade or whatever.
I really don't want a standard thing for this.
Because that'll mean if we get it even so slightly wrong (and we will!), we will be stuck with it forever.
 
12:32 PM
@Griwes i'll chat with jonathan about that, but don't get your hopes up, it would significantly complicate Allocators, and they are already very complex
@Griwes it would go into a library fundamentals TS, maybe at some point into std:: and probably afterwards into std2:: for range support
 
@gnzlbg This is very necessary and there was a proposal that tried to fix a thing related to this in vector.
Which is an abomination.
 
and any proposal is going to get revised 5-10 times so... yeah, we won't get everything right, but the current library solutions they just don't tell you the exception-safety guarantees because they are hard
 
You don't fix allocator issues on the container level. No. Nononono. No.
 
@Griwes I mean, arguably, the complexities of boost::static_vector (and exception safety) is different to what most people expect from std::vector. I think it is clear to have it be a different type on their own, with everything documented for it correctly. If standard libraries can reuse std::vector with a particular allocator for implementing it, that would be a plus
 
Also it's only move assignment that is weird when it comes to allocators; move construction is all good.
 
12:35 PM
allocators as currently designed are broken we all know this
 
And for move assignment you can just destroy and move construct.
 
pls ditch them altogether
 
@gnzlbg Cool, use the Boost thing then.
 
@Griwes its also exception safety, no std::bad_alloc can be thrown, so a lot of things change
 
@gnzlbg Throwing bad_alloc means you're fucked either way. vOv
 
12:36 PM
@Griwes unless the code-bases uses LLVM, or folly, or EASTL, then I have to use something similar but with slightly different semantics, and cannot reuse any code between them
@Griwes yeah, but what happens when you exceed capacity of a static_vector?
 
Also the only sensible way to recover is to go as far up as possible, force free things and try again. Not all applications can (or even should) do that, in most cases you should just terminate() on sight of bad_alloc.
 
in a std::vector you get reallocation, but a static vector cannot reallocate
 
@gnzlbg You extend the allocator interface.
 
arguably it is a logic error, or an out-of-bounds error, or a precondition that you won't do that
but then std::vector will need to change from "it can throw bad_alloc" to "it can throw anything, or call terminate, or UB" in their methods
depending on the Allocator
that's also undesirable, and might break backwards compatibility
 
No problem changing can throw bad_alloc to can throw bad_alloc or logic_error. This is an extension of the interface.
 
12:39 PM
I was jogging alone in the park today, being late in the evening and all that. Then I saw many cars started parking near the ground. At first I found it uneasy, suddenly seeing so many people getting out of the car in the dark, fearing for my own safety. But soon I saw them lighting little lamps/candles and put them near/inside the edge of the park. Must be one of those India/persian festivals
 
Also it could only do that if an allocator is a LimitedCapacityAllocator or whatever name you want to pick for that.
You can work this out, and you can work this out during the next gazillion meetings this'd be discussed at.
 
@Griwes but you already promised that you would only throw bad_alloc
throwing anything else breaks the API
so it would need to go into std2
 
No.
 
std::vector::resize says "throws std::length_error if ..."
 
std::vector<T> and std::vector<T, LimitedCapacityAllocator> are different APIs, and the latter doesn't currently exist.
 
12:41 PM
there is just std::vector<T, Allocator = std::allocator>
there is no std::vector<T> in the standard
 
std::vector<T>.
I omitted the default argument the way I can omit it everywhere where I use this template. But whatever.
 
I know, but currently std::vector<T, Allocator> is the only thing specified, and it says that independently of the allocator, this or that method throws this or that or has this or that exception safety guarantee, or this or that complexity
arguably, somethings there weren't designed with the current allocators that we have in mind
and with whatever thing we need to allow embedded storage in a std::vector
while I agree it would be optimal to do this nicely with Allocators
 
I maintain that adding a specialized type for this is not the correct approach.
 
after giving it a couple of tries, I gave up
it is impossible to do with the current allocator system (the C++>11 one), and it would very hard to extend the system to do this without penalizing the APIs of containers that already support allocators, and without breaking backwards compatibility
on the other hand, adding a new type has no real drawbacks (we would add a type-alias anyways) to the standard lib, and would need to document that type-alias so... yes its a new type, but if you don't include the header file you don't pay for it
if you are really going to be against the proposal you should really have good drawbacks. "We should do this with allocators" won't really cut it, you would need at least a "I will do this with allocators and come with a proposal in the next meeting" kind of thing
 
Actually my order of preference w.r.t. this is: do it right at allocators level, do nothing, have a specialized type.
And I'm free to vote whatever way I want to in straw polls without providing an alternative solution for a problem.
 
12:51 PM
strawman polls
 
With a little bit of luck I might even become able to vote in actual acceptance polls in a while, and that I can also do without promising to do the right thing myself when trying to shoot down something I feel is not productive (or actively harmful).
 
@Griwes Indeed, but my proposal will say why this cannot be done right at the allocator level. I hope that you are right and that it can be done, but to convince people (and to be productive) I hope you have better arguments that "I just don't like it and won't use it".
 
user1804599
latin1 is a great encoding.
 
@gnzlbg Please ping me once the paper is ready (or at least somewhat ready, in the relevant part); I'll take a look.
 
Any idea how AWS handles sub-cent bills? If I use $0.00001 worth of services in a month will it charge me $0.01, $0.00, or just accumulate for the next month?
 
nwp
12:59 PM
I have that national library site with which I can find a book by ISBN. I then copy the title from the result into the search bar and it doesn't find anything. I can even specify to search for title and it just doesn't find anything.
 
@Griwes Thanks, I would really appreciate your feedback. Currently I am working on fixing Casey Carter's feedback. I wanted to ping Jonathan Wakely next, and EricFW/Marshall afterwards (that is, somebody from any major standard library). Should I ping you afterwards? (pinging multiple people at the same time kind of wastes their time).
 
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