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12:04 AM
@sehe Though seeing a wall of code in a post, just tracks me for the close vote reason in question automatically. It's kinda reflex now, and I came up concerned of reflecting myself among such kind of reflexes, learned by the site's, crowds' shown behaviour. I don't wan't to get brainwashed in the end ;-) ...
 
We're about to roll out a configuration change to our load balancers to make them happier; hoping for no visible impact.
That change has been rolled out. Let us know if you're seeing any problems.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ If /that/ was a wall of code, maybe you should recalibrate. That was 61 lines of code in main. Mostly dealing with input or repetitive additions.
I don't mean to brainwash you, but we've seen walls of code 10x longer. Actually, questions with multiple code islands like that.
 
stack works, bitbucket just went down :(
 
12:20 AM
@sehe Wall of code mostly identifies by seeing a scrollbar at all for me ;). But well, you're correct, I have seen much larger ones already also.
 
I wouldn't sweat it so much. It's ok if the questions just go unanswered, I guess. I leave comments, and if I really think the question was bad, I downvote.
This question was none of the above: all the information was there, OP had described exactly how far he had gotten debugging it.
 
@ScottW I'm really fully relaxed! Any concerns?
 
hey Scott
 
user1646075
@ScottW sounds relaxed to me - good discussion, thoughts are being heard, savoured, someone will grow.
 
do you know any places that break street date for games near us?
I need my fix
:(
 
user1646075
12:23 AM
@ScottW someone pass the doob to Scott, he's very stressed
 
@ScottW NEED MY FIX.
 
@ScottW What's your concern? I don't see any bubbling and burning lava flowing here? Just some gently flowing discussions.
 
user1646075
I agree that the Q on SO is decent; as usual the guy didn't know what his problem REALLY is so committed the sin of false attribution, sehe made a great guess. Let's upvote it back into the black
 
user1646075
Really, I see a lot of narky down-voting because the OP has committed that sin. But, Duhhhhh - if they knew the real reason they wouldn't be asking. False attribution should NOT be punishable.
 
user1646075
@ScottW In Australia, sitting down to drink with a Polar Bear can be dangerous. The logo was chosen because if you have a big night on the rum, in the morning that bear will be inside your head, trying to fight its way out.
 
user1646075
12:30 AM
 
damn it man
I need my video games
:(
 
@ScottW Well, cheers & slaììnte! I'm really chilled as can be, no offense, no overly exposing at a particular topic, just discussing silly thoughts ...
 
do you know any mom n' pop stores that sell vidya early
wot
I meant new
 
@aclarke Agreed. Although I don't hesitate to point it out. Some people are just "complainers" and will always say "my PC is wonky", "the compiler refuses to work", "yesterday it worked", "it can't be my fault" and stuff like that.
 
user1646075
@sehe oh yeah, that's laziness, and deserves a slap. I think some rabid SO contributors can't tell the difference.
 
12:38 AM
lol
I want to buy SSB4 3DS
 
user1646075
@sehe heh - that's a question i don't bother to interpret, and just move on. I have enough of interpreting some of the shit written at my current job to actually want to do more for fun
 
@aclarke That could be. I'm sure I sometimes miss the cues. However, I don't like closevoting. Downvoting is enough for me, 80% of the time. And when it's already at -3, not even that. What we want is ability to see which questions are worth the attention and have future value. (Not worth the effort: downvote; future value: upvote)
 
user1646075
@sehe written words are farking hard to interpret for feeling and intention. I decided a while ago to just assume good will and best intentions. Then if the person is actually being a dick, or just lazy, they'll make it clear through their efforts to prove it.
 
@aclarke I make it a point to do the tag. I skip a few, but not many
@aclarke Couldn't have said it any better.
Also saves a lot of energy.
 
user1646075
@sehe heh. yup - works for me, and when they make it clear they're a cock, the room is already against them
 
12:43 AM
I don't even mind when they're a cock. It's just when they post rubbish, and they don't improve the post in reasonable time... well. That's what the votes were for all along
 
user1646075
@ScottW i think the room has already decided
 
But not in a very stable mood today
We decided a few years back. Maybe it's time to revisit :)
 
@sehe What are the symptoms? Hoarse voice?
 
ScottW has by far the most sexual liaisons in the room, and also superior musical taste.
 
user1646075
scott needs to go for a jog. Into the forest. Then have a fap. Then throw stones at some rabbits. Then rejoin civilised society.
 
user1646075
12:45 AM
IMHO
 
@Borgleader :D
 
@ScottW Someone got it :D
 
user1646075
@sehe see, I can smell sarcasm a mile away
 
there should be a word for "thinking you have good idea, but immediately questioning if it's actually a stupid idea"
 
@Borgleader /cc @ThePhD
 
user1646075
12:48 AM
@corvid introspection?
 
user1646075
self-doubt?
 
user3010322
Oh god.
 
user3010322
Why are you even up, @Borgleader? D:
 
sort of. I feel like this HAS to have been done a lot before
 
@corvid progress!
 
user1646075
12:49 AM
guaranteed there's a word...
 
there should be, seems like a common phenomenon (especially in programming)
 
@ThePhD Its only 8:50PM, my bedtime is at 9:30 =/
 
user3010322
@Borgleader Go to bed earlier. D:<
 
@ScottW I have yet to hear rubbish posted by you. I have you, Morwenn and Evgeny Panasyuk in the "they have taste" box. I get critical of your particular picks because it tends to cross-over to my usual interests (classical and jazz) and I have a hard time dropping preconceived notions. But I do notice when people care about music enough to come up with special stuff.
Robot also cares - a lot - but he seems to be in a niche that really won't do it for me
 
On that note, I bid ye farewell
Night all
 
Good night.
 
@sehe " I don't like closevoting." Well, how would these questions disappear from SO at all, if we don't send them to the close vote queue? At least some human being needs to get attention, if none of the automatically cleanup scripts works to delete VLQs from the site?
@ScottW Slaìnte!
 
user1646075
Ciao
 
There's no contradiction there. Of course I c/v when it's clearly bad. But if it's "nothing I can work with" I comment as much or just move on.
I'm also not convinced that playing the janitor makes a lot of sense for questions that have been forgotten anyways.
There are so many bad, forgotten questions around, I'm pretty sure they're not in anyone's way (or we would surely have known by now) and they might actually serve as excellent guidance to newcomers ("how not to post questions")
 
1:01 AM
Huh. Hope he makes MSVC less terrible.
 
We broke the mobile apps there for a moment, but everything should be good now. Let us know if you see any issues!
 
@sehe Well, a little limerick: "Whiskey and grass, make silly thoughts pass." ;-) I well agree, that just downvoting should have triggered the SE engine enough, to delete the question in the long term.
 
user3010322
1:35 AM
@MarkGarcia Nobody can save VC++.
 
user3010322
At least, not in its current state.
 
@ThePhD Haven't seen anything new in their blog for a while. I wonder if they're affected by the cuts.
@ThePhD Aren't they sort of rewriting it?
 
user3010322
Yes.
 
user3010322
To have an AST.
 
user3010322
And to use C++.
 
user3010322
1:37 AM
Instead of C.
 
user3010322
The sizes of some of those files.......
 
Yeah, I pretty much guessed those.
 
user3010322
The size of those functions...
 
About time to unveil the D and something else http://t.co/qp23yi59i6
A little restraint there Mr.Musk
dont pull it out in public
 
And WTH have they been doing from the 1998s to 2010s?
 
1:39 AM
@MarkGarcia WPF
 
user3010322
@MarkGarcia There are code paths in there 30 years old.
 
user3010322
Some of that code is ENTIRELY untouchable except by only the greatest experts.
 
Lemme guess, with inline assembly.
@ThePhD "Experts" heh.
 
@MarkGarcia Fapping (aka, .NET).
 
Why can't they do same with the C#/VB Roslyn stunt anyway?
@JerryCoffin Oh right. Fapping to C++/CLI
t
 
1:50 AM
@ThePhD that might explain why they nuked their CRT from orbit this next time round
they are using C++ as the base for the CRT
 
user3010322
The CRT getting nuked is irrespective of the VC++ rewrite.
 
oh I know
I suspect that's one reason they won't commit to a release date
because they really are doing a massive rewrite
 
user3010322
The CRT was nuked because they made the base of it run on C++, with a thin wrapper to communicate to the CLI.
 
user3010322
(This is what WinRT is and why it's got breaking changes compared to regular .NET)
 
I'm kinda curious what the oldest still active paths in MS code are
I suspect they are the CreateProcess paths
 
user1646075
1:53 AM
@Mgetz int21 handlers
 
@aclarke pretty sure those got rewritten after the fiasco that XP was to the kernel driver architechture
or at least reverted to what they were prior to XP
 
user1646075
int21 dates to MSDOS 1
 
user1646075
if reverted, surely the same code
 
@aclarke NT has exactly 0 MSDos code
 
user1646075
anyway, jus' bein' a fool...
 
user1646075
1:56 AM
reeely? interesting
 
it was written from scratch by the DEC folks led by Dave Cutler
they started with a HAL in mind
 
user1646075
but it can run DOS-box stuff, ergo it must have int21 handlers. Just virtualised them I guess
 
Dammit ISP!
 
@aclarke define DOS box, as in the program DOSbox?
or actual dos programs?
because it most assuredly can't do the later
that was broken with XP
 
user1646075
@Mgetz yeah, that world. actual dos programs, which need a console. They can still be run
 
1:58 AM
nooope, real mode DOS applications cannot be run on NT
the DOS vm was removed in XP
you can use DOSbox to run them
which is an emulator
 
user1646075
I've run stuff from way back just for comedy purposes, and they still function. virtualised
 
@Mgetz My guess would be some parts of GDI and USER. A fair amount of both seem to have migrated fairly directly from Windows 3.1 to NT 3.1. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some code in there (especially in parts of GDI) that can be traced back to Windows 1.0.
 
user1646075
@Mgetz yes - that's the point - and surely there'll be a lot of cut-n-paste to get that up and running.
 
user1646075
so - oldest code paths ......
 
@JerryCoffin my understanding is that that is not the case for USER but likely the case for the drawing routines in GDI prior to XP
in XP they got rewritten to use the GPU, that got ripped out in vista, and added back in 8
I say create process because it has an interesting quirk in the W api that isn't in the A api
and even raymond chen has pointed it out
 
user1646075
2:00 AM
@Mgetz what's the quirk?
 
the W api takes a mutable string, the A api doesn't... because someone wanted to save space and modify the string you pass it
> The Unicode version of this function, CreateProcessW, can modify the contents of this string. Therefore, this parameter cannot be a pointer to read-only memory (such as a const variable or a literal string). If this parameter is a constant string, the function may cause an access violation.
3
 
user1646075
@Mgetz canonicalising it?
 
@aclarke In the 32-bit versions of the NT code base the DOS emulation basically ran what was (if memory serves) "MS-DOS 5.5", which was a modified version of DOS 5.x. Although it's shipped with the OS, I wouldn't personally consider that part of the OS per se.
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin oh yeah, I remember that explicitly. And a good version of dos it was too
 
user1646075
2:04 AM
no, just another program, effectively by then.
 
command line parsing basically
hmm InterlockedIncrement is probably the oldest actually
although it would have had a rewrite for NT
 
user1646075
@Mgetz hmmm. probably chucking in '\0' at opportune points to pretend you have distinct strings.
 
@aclarke probably
I know large parts of userspace are C++ now
 
user1646075
and then restoring it before returning. nice.
 
@aclarke Figuring out where the name of the command ends, and the arguments begin. It basically walks through looking for white space, and each place it finds it, it tries looking of everything before that as a file (with .com, .exe, .bat, .cmd, etc., appended). If it doesn't find a file by that name, it restores the original content, and keeps on going.
 
2:07 AM
Seems that most C++ devs have heard of Rule-of-zero by now.
 
@Mgetz That's been completely rewritten at least a few times (e.g., was quite different in NT 4 than it is now).
 
@JerryCoffin my understanding is that largely it's been moved into the compiler
it's basically an intrinsic now
 
Never heard of the rule-of-4 though.
 
@Mgetz The compiler may have an intrinsic as well, but the last time I looked, it was exported from the kernel too.
 
@StackedCrooked how about rule of 5?
 
2:09 AM
@JerryCoffin probably for compatiblity
 
@OMGtechy I've heard of that one.
 
@OMGtechy rule of 3 + move assignment and move ctor.
 
remember you can still run starcraft on window 8.1x64
 
I suspect rule-of-four means to use operator=(T t); // by value
 
@JerryCoffin yeah have heard of it (thank you scott meyers!), was checking stacked had :)
 
2:10 AM
@StackedCrooked they should see herb's talk
 
thanks though
 
@OMGtechy Ah, I see.
 
I find I typically use either none or 5.
 
@StackedCrooked Default, copy, copy assignment, destructor?
 
or sometimes 3 if I'm lazy
 
2:11 AM
@MarkGarcia don't forget move now
 
@Mgetz Rule of six then.
 
eventually we'll end up with a rule of 9000.
 
@MarkGarcia One rule to ring them all, in in the darkness bind them.
 
Rule of auto.
 
@MarkGarcia I think it's copy constructor, move constructor, assignment with copy-swap, destructor.
 
2:12 AM
@OMGtechy I suspect they'll make move deleted by default
 
@Mgetz I believe it is if you define any other constructor, unsure if you define none though
 
actually wait... isn't move deleted by default
 
@Mgetz no way
 
@JerryCoffin Why did I draw a hexagram in the air...
@Mgetz Lots of "depends" on that.
Also "by default" is ambiguous.
 
@MarkGarcia honestly thinking about it.. I'm not too worried, unless you are trying to use move deliberately it's hard to mess up
and you still get the benefit from temporaries
 
2:14 AM
That's why there's the rule of robot zero.
 
My code follows the rule of suck.
 
@StackedCrooked that's why I watch Herb's videos it reminds me my code sucks so I try to improve
I was mentally cataloging all the shit I have to remove while watching his talk
 
@MarkGarcia It'll do you no good--the eye can still see you...
 
@Mgetz very good :P
 
@StackedCrooked first thing I got rid of was passing unique_ptr by && into a constructor
 
2:20 AM
@Mgetz Hm. I'd pass by-value followed by move. However, I don't see why && would be bad.
 
I'd reconsider passing a unique_ptr instead of the type inside the brackets.
 
@StackedCrooked because it prevents the explicit move, thus hiding information about what's happening. The end result is the same but in terms of being clear about what's happening... value followed by move is better from a clarity perspective
 
&& prevents the explicit move?
 
4 hours ago, by Ell
I get the feeling Herb can no longer be trusted
 
I trust Herb.
 
2:24 AM
We just had a 2 hour argument in this room about how his guidelines for parameter passing are misguided today.
 
The problem is that his marketing-like behavior is something that many developers are allergic to.
@Rapptz you did? I missed out apparently.
 
@StackedCrooked it's a forwarding reference, so while it forwards into the new owning pointer it does hide the fact that the unique_ptr you're passing in will no longer be valid
 
@StackedCrooked Click that message and scroll up. It went on for a long time.
 
@Rapptz why? I think he made a very good data driven argument
 
@Mgetz It's (probably) not a forwarding reference. AFAIK it's only a forwarding ref if it's a parameter of a function template and template type is deduced.
 
2:25 AM
@Mgetz Click that message and scroll up.
6 hours ago, by Andy Prowl
@TemplateRex I'm not completely convinced about his new guideline for setters on accepting by const & then copying, rather than accepting by value then moving
Starts here.
 
@Rapptz That's all I need to know. Herb's not thinking enough.
 
However, I'm not sure if unique_ptr<T>&& can ever be a forwarding ref. I've only read about them in the form of T&&.
Not wrapper<T>&&.
Ah well.
 
@MarkGarcia I've heard both sides of that argument and the only thing I can come to is "use common sense"
which in general tells me to avoid allocation whenever possible
 
moves are cheap and do no allocation
copies do
passing by value invokes 2 moves and no copies in the general case
 
@Rapptz Usually.
 
2:30 AM
@Rapptz moves are cheap, but if the type allocates on construction then by value is expensive
hence use common sense
 
@Mgetz The same can be said about copying.
 
@Rapptz Weird. So non-modern. I should have a look at the video to see if there is some context to this quote.
 
Moves are either the same or cheaper than a copy in the general case.
 
@Rapptz again use common sense
 
This is common sense.
 
2:31 AM
for string I think herb is right
 
I don't like Herb's argument because it's misconstrued.
 
shit for any container type I think herb is right
 
But copy + move is more expensive than copy.
Maybe that was his point?
 
but beyond that it's a case by case issue
 
@Mgetz No, as Robot points out for std::vector<std::string> he's wrong
 
2:32 AM
JUST OVERLOAD FOR MOVE AND COPY DAMMIT!
 
or any non-trivial buffer outside of int and char
@MarkGarcia Doesn't scale well.
 
@Rapptz I call bullshit, a deep copy of a vector is incredibly painful
particularly with strings
 
@Rapptz I WAS JOKING/RANTING OR WATEVAH.
:P
 
I'm not even sure what you're arguing about.
 
@MarkGarcia are you one of them belt and suspenders guys? :)
 
2:33 AM
I'm just going to drop it because I don't think we're talking about the same thing.
 
@StackedCrooked That would do if I am for C++. But currently I'm not...
 
@Rapptz semantic misunderstandings of other's arguments
 
What's more important for C++ now, IMHO, are views. Non-owning pointers, string views, array views, etc.
 
@MarkGarcia views look at a subset of a range right?
 
@MarkGarcia not really
 
2:40 AM
not just non-owning pointers to the range?
 
@Mgetz No
 
then... why? what do views give you?
 
a reference to an object
 
we already have those
 
I know
but you can't have a container of references
 
2:43 AM
@Rapptz I meant more on the non-owning helper stuff. Hm. Pointers and range views may not overlap, but you get my point.
 
IMHO, C++ has moved way more towards becoming a higher level language the way Java & C# are & losing it's own character - i.e. letting user optimizing the code speed by accessing lower level aspect of the language
 
Do you even know C++ Telkitty?
 
@Mgetz yeah (definitely not a superset :P)
 
@chmod711telkitty So which do you mean--that it's higher level, or more like Java? Given Java's nearly-complete lack of higher-level features, even C++98 was clearly capable of being a higher level language than even Java 8 attempts (and mostly fails) to be.
 
@Rapptz point taken, you'd have to use a container of unique_ptr right now
@StackedCrooked subset would be like caching the results of a find if
 
2:46 AM
it's not about caching
 
too bad, would make for some nice functional things
but I can see the issues it might create
 
Suppose you have const char* pointer and you want to use it like std::string then you could have a string_ref class which behaves like std::string but it works directly on the input data instead of making a copy (which std::string would do)
 
@StackedCrooked that will be nice... particularly in the constexpr case, but it still has the issue of being passed in where a string can... unless I'm missing something
or are they going to reparent both so that there is a common base?
 
At least one of use is confused now.
 
probably both
it's ok I'll learn c++17 closer to when it's a reality
 
2:52 AM
@Mgetz It'd be a while until Herb does his next industry-moving speech. :P
 
@MarkGarcia bowel moving? because all this one seems to have done is stir up shit
 
@Mgetz constexpr seems like a red herring to me. A typical use case would be dealing with lines of data being read from a file. Right now, you read data into a buffer, then copy each line's worth of data into a string. With a string_view, you could just read data once, then use subsets of that like strings.
 
Cache locality wins!
 
@JerryCoffin lambdas? auto? foreach, regex? those are all classified as higher level "user friendly features" that allow user to achieve the same thing with less code
@Rapptz yes, along with java & C#
but higher level language also tend to be slower ...
 
I think constexpr only matters if you need to be able to obtain an integral constant from the return value.
@MarkGarcia spatial locality and temporal locality
 
2:59 AM
@StackedCrooked I managed to say it with two words! I win. :P
 
@chmod711telkitty Even Java 8 doesn't have lambdas--just a way of treating an inner class as if it were a lambda (but with truly horrendous syntax). regex isn't part of the language, just a piece of library code (handy, but not significantly different from the regex libs I used in C decades ago). Java's foreach is kind of handy, but orthogonal to being higher level.
 
either way I'm out for the night
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin i know what you're thinking here - qualifiers...
 
@JerryCoffin C# does
 

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