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12:02 AM
Oh. I finally got what @Xeo was talking about. I want to make a function named and.
:(
 
user142019
> If I had a magic wand, I would make the world suck my dick without a condom on.
 
wot
 
wot.
 
user142019
Eminem. :P
 
I don't know what to name this.
 
Ell
12:03 AM
I dont like condoms
 
user142019
@Rapptz and_
 
Ell
Because they don't like me.
 
That's awful.
:(
 
logical_conjunction
 
user142019
et
 
12:04 AM
That's bad too.
 
user142019
und
 
user142019
also
 
Ell
What's awful?
 
@Rapptz Yeah, but on purpose!
 
user142019
12:05 AM
Is it possible to do bool operator and(…) { … }?
 
anyone here use damn small linux?
 
No.
 
@LucDanton -1. Needs more namespaces. For example, a reasonable starting point might be: utilities::operators::logical::conjunction.
 
I only use goddamn linux sorry
 
user142019
Fucking Small Linux
 
12:06 AM
Wow, I knew I was missing something. Those are some good tips.
 
Ell
Bloody small Linux
 
the amount of linux users here is too damn small
 
Ell
I use Linux
But why would I use damn small Linux :3
 
@Ell what distro?
 
user142019
Use Gentoo.
 
Ell
12:08 AM
Linux mint, Ubuntu, turnkey Linux
 
user142019
Turkey Linux
 
Ell
Mint mainly
 
@Johann I sometimes use a DSL, but with a different expansion.
 
@Rapptz Surprisingly catchy.
 
Ell
I used menuet os for booting from floppy
 
user142019
12:09 AM
> floppy
 
@JerryCoffin do you boot dsl or as a vm?
 
user142019
@Johann epic fail
 
user142019
> but with a different expansion
 
user142019
(I knew this was going to happen.)
 
@Johann "Different expansion" meaning when I use a DSL, it's a "domain specific language", usually implemented in C++.
 
user142019
12:11 AM
DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER LINE
 
oh wow
 
@LucDanton This is how they taught English here.
With the school house rocks videos.
 
@rightfold I suppose you could argue that I was a little cryptic.
 
I forgot expansion meant expanding the acronym
 
@rightfold Ick.
 
12:12 AM
Oh and "social studies".
 
well I'll try another chatroom
 
History via sing-alongs? :s
 
Yep.
 
@Johann Not an acroynm -- to be an acronym you have to use (and pronounce) it like a word.
 
Even how the US government worked.
 
12:13 AM
worked?
 
@Rapptz When my high-school councilor asked me what I wanted to major in in college, I said "anti-social studies".
 
lol
"Social studies" sucked.
 
user142019
I'm not a social animal.
 
Oooooh it's coming back to me. Episode 'Foxxy vs Board of Education' of Drawn Together has a parody of those things.
 
user142019
I'm asocial.
 
12:14 AM
why does Ubuntu have its own SE?
 
@Johann Is claimed to have worked. We know it doesn't now, but some argue that it once did.
 
Ell
I'm aknobhead
 
user142019
@Johann Because uhm, demand?
 
@LucDanton I think people like those videos. I didn't mind them.
 
user142019
Why does Coca-Cola still exist?
 
12:15 AM
But I wasn't born here.
 
@Rapptz What kind of course would that be part of?
 
user142019
I wasn't born here either. I was born in the hospital fifteen kilometers away from here.
 
@rightfold wait so if I area51'd a dsl se and it had enough support, it wouldn't get tagged as a copy of linux+ unix se?
 
@LucDanton "Social studies"
The quotations are there to be the highest of smugness :|
 
@rightfold When my older sister was in college (back when the "Moral Majority" was making lots of noise) her college-bowl team was named "The Amoral Minority".
 
user142019
12:16 AM
@Johann Ask Ubuntu was there before Unix & Linux.
 
@Rapptz Damn, I must have confused that with social sciences more than once.
 
user142019
Also
 
user142019
Ubuntu is an OS.
 
@rightfold ...and
 
Back when I was in middle school they had catch-all classes like "Social Studies" for US government, geography, etc and "Language Arts" for English.
 
user142019
12:16 AM
Linux is a kernel.
 
What's LA for?
 
t
 
user142019
What's middle school?
 
English and reading.
6th grade to 8th.
 
user142019
I don't understand US education system.
 
12:17 AM
We have 12 grades here.
 
@rightfold A middle of the road school in the US -- about halfway between terrible and awful.
 
I think the middle and high school varies by state.
 
@Rapptz But... is there like a separate English class still?
 
@Rapptz Often varies by school district within the state (and sometime even by school within the district).
 
Middle school varies by locality. It's a building, not a curriculum.
 
12:18 AM
@LucDanton Sometimes.
 
Hmm, I have a subjective question about templated OO.
 
@Potatoswatter It sucks. Want a second opinion? :-)
 
user142019
We just have eight years elementary school, or seven years if you're too good, followed by four, five or six years of high school depending on how dumb you are, followed by vocacional education, college or university, also depending on how dumb you are.
 
I have a template which consolidates classes which may have an "is-a" or an "has-a" relationship.
But the implementations are the same either way.
 
I didn't go to high school formally, or really even had a regular middle school. :s
I just skipped grades a lot.
 
user142019
12:20 AM
I did eight years of elementary school and five years of high school and now I'm wasting my time in college.
 
Well, almost the same. Should I eliminate the distinction and foist inheritance on my users?
 
@Potatoswatter foist
 
@Potatoswatter So basically instead of explicitly aggregating for has-a and implicitly aggregating for is-a, you just embed a T either way?
 
Hmm.. stupid and function.
 
12:23 AM
I guess the basic question is whether you need/want to support overriding virtual functions. If so, you pretty much need to use inheritance. If not, you're probably better off without it.
 
@JerryCoffin It's a compiler framework which aggregates stages of a compiler. Sometimes a stage is coupled to a succeeding stage, which implies an is-a relationship.
 
@Rapptz Btw if you needed reminding Xeo prefers using all as a name I think.
 
But otherwise they're decoupled, and inheritance would cause the interface of the base class to vary.
 
So it's used as all even etc
 
user142019
#define and and_

whatever and(whatever) { whatever }
 
12:24 AM
@rightfold That won't compile
 
@Potatoswatter Something just sounds wrong about an is-a relationship between stages that are apparently different.
 
user142019
Why not?
 
Try it.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, hence the question.
A preprocessor (given tokens) is-a macro engine because you can't separate those concepts.
 
@rightfold A #define of a keyword isn't allowed.
 
user142019
12:25 AM
ohlol
 
user142019
Use M4 instead of CPP!
 
But a trigraph processor isn't a whole tokenizer just because it's feeding into one.
@JerryCoffin Yes it is as long as you don't use the standard library
 
@Potatoswatter I think at least from a really proper OO viewpoint, both of those should inherit from some sort of "sequence_transformer" or something on that order.
 
user142019
and = foldl1 (&&) :3
 
@LucDanton Guess that'll work.
 
12:27 AM
@JerryCoffin Yes, the implementation of that is what I'm concerned about adjusting now.
 
The disjunction being any.
 
@rightfold and already exists though
 
Is that a function or metafunction btw?
 
sequence_transformer (I call it stage) is a template which either defines a base class or a member.
 
@Potatoswatter A condition too obscure to be of any concern, IMO.
 
12:28 AM
I don't have a variadic function for conjunctions/disjunctions. I've done some fold(logical_and {}, true, some_tuple) though.
 
@LucDanton My meta function is named And because it matches with the rest
but regular functions don't start with a capital letter hence my issue
(in my convoluted style :D)
 
@Potatoswatter Okay -- I'm starting to get the general idea. That doesn't sound nearly so bad. Unfortunately, I can't stay and talk longer -- have to go feed a baby...
 
user142019
Call it not_nand.
 
Ya, I may have started with and_ in the spirit of e.g. Boost.MPL but when I started to consistently use PascalCase for aliases it kinda gelled nicely. Even though And/Or don't have to be aliases.
 
@JerryCoffin OK, enjoy your shoulder-painting session.
 
12:31 AM
I ended up just going with all/any with appropriate overloads
 
posted on May 26, 2013 by Herb Sutter

If you’re thinking of coming to C++ and Beyond this December, consider registering in the next two weeks to get the $300 discount. I’ve just announced that much (and possibly all) of my material will be in heavily interactive sessions about modern C++11/C++14 style and idioms, covering the “complete C++11 package” that we’re calling C++14. […]

 
I nearly needed a conjunction when I wrote non_null. But it's roughly the same amount of work with one or without.
I do have constexpr min, max and even abs though. It's kinda weird.
Well abs isn't variadic so I don't know why I brought it up.
 
I only have max
 
With constexpr initializer lists, you can do away with variadic all and any and make them overloads of all_of and any_of which are in the Standard Library already for sequences but not ILs.
 
user142019
I only have john
 
12:34 AM
@Potatoswatter Oh. Whoa.
I forgot those existed.
lol
 
constexpr ILs don't exist yet… C++14.
 
I meant all_of and any_of
It kinda escaped my mind.
 
@Potatoswatter But the algorithms aren't constexpr :|
 
Ah. I don't know if they're already supposed to be IL'ed for C++14.
 
user142019
Man.
 
user142019
12:36 AM
I need more money.
 
@Rapptz Though making min shouldn't be hard..
 
Ell
Me too
 
@LucDanton Are no algorithms constexpr, even in C++14?
 
Come to think of it Haskell has both any and and, where and = any id anyway.
 
user142019
I have only 3k.
 
12:37 AM
I hardly know anything about the proposed changes. Where should I review this?
No, don't answer now, I'll ask on the main site.
 
Is that even suitable for SO?
There's only been 2 summaries of it thus far.
Outside of that you can read the actual CD.
 
std::istreambuf_iterator is a literal type?! Who took the time to specify that shit?
@Potatoswatter Looks that way.
 
We should add the NAND operator to C++
 
@LucDanton well shit
 
Are you seriously bothered by that? :p
 
12:39 AM
@Mikhail ~& a la VHDL?
 
How would they be constexpr?
 
I know they released the draft for c++14 last month
 
Don't constexpr functions have to be 1-line?
 
@Potatoswatter I want to use the @ symbol
 
Maybe constexpr functions can compute any primitive recursive function, I haven't really thought about that. (Because constexpr functions are terrible and useless.)
 
12:40 AM
@LucDanton They're Turing-complete, no?
 
I found this
Is there a newer version of that?
 
It's easy to write a constexpr function iterating from one pointer to another, as long as the pointers are constant expressions. C++14 initializer_list::begin() and end() are constexpr.
 
@Rapptz N3690 was released the 23rd of April
 
@Potatoswatter It's problematic to ask the question that way because experience suggests that implementation limits are a very real barrier.
 
@CaptainObvlious ..?
 
12:42 AM
@Rapptz first C++14 committee draft
 
Did you even click what I linked to? :|
 
I too checked against n3690. There are too many papers to keep track of -- I do track some things that are dear to me, but I kinda expect them to fall off my mind from time to time.
 
@Rapptz nope. I'm fighting with a monkey
 
@LucDanton Yes, but you asked about "computing any primitive recursive function"… which they can do, it just depends upon the format of the inputs.
 
12:43 AM
yes. a real monkey
fucking banana tossing bastard is what he is
 
@Potatoswatter I think it's easier to reason as it doesn't involve carrying an infinite tape around :s
 
Checking against N3690 it looks like it got accepted whenever.
Or at least some of it, i.e. init_lists
 
Well the only meaningful restriction on a constexpr function is that it's one line long. The constexpr qualifier is stupid.
 
There are other restrictions too.
 
I also expect implementations to deal nicely with tail recursive functions, it's actually a good thing I can say of constexpr functions over C++03-style metafunctions.
 
12:45 AM
21
Q: Why do we need to mark functions as constexpr?

PotatoswatterC++11 allows functions declared with the constexpr specifier to be used in constant expressions such as template arguments. There are stringent requirements about what is allowed to be constexpr; essentially such a function encapsulates only one subexpression and nothing else. If it's so hard to...

 
@Potatoswatter The restrictions on literal types are very stringent.
Part of why I dislike constexpr functions, as literal types are botched imo.
 
Making functions constexpr is a bitch.
 
@LucDanton Does a constexpr function template instantiation need to have a literal return type?
 
Yes.
 
I can see that being a pain, although it doesn't affect any_of et al
 
user142019
12:49 AM
Fuck you VEVO.
 
user142019
Y u censor the word "clitoris".
 
I really think it would be better to deprecate the constexpr qualifier from function declarations entirely.
It would be a non-breaking change.
 
I'm not concerned about what's at all possible or not. I'm concerned with the low hanging fruit that is worth allocating resources to, and I don't think more constexpr functions are part of that.
 
@LucDanton I see it as the opposite. constexpr functions take implementation effort but not standardization effort. It's easy to show that they're possible and useful.
 
So if you say implementation is hard, what is being standardized at all? Or: remember the lesson of export.
 
Ell
12:51 AM
What is the thing called where people think "I knew I should have ..." Or "I knew I was right about ..."
 
@LucDanton export is conceptually hard, it forces a reorganization of the entire compiler.
 
@Ell Hindsight?
 
Ell
Some psychological thing where people think they knew after the event
 
constexpr algorithms are just tedious.
 
@Potatoswatter There's no compiler in the Standard :s
 
Ell
12:52 AM
Rightv
 
user142019
@Ell "being an idiot and having it done wrong"
 
It's very, very, very easy to specify.
 
@LucDanton Well, however the implementation is done, its handling of TUs is heavily impacted by adding export.
 
"Do like you do with non-template things."
 
Ell
Ahh its hindsight bias, thanks luc
 
12:52 AM
@Potatoswatter But by your own standards (hah) the Standard shouldn't care!
2 mins ago, by Potatoswatter
@LucDanton I see it as the opposite. constexpr functions take implementation effort but not standardization effort. It's easy to show that they're possible and useful.
 
@LucDanton Huh?
export did take standardization effort because it was hard to show it was possible.
 
ahhh there we go. danm monkey goes back in the cage
 
@Potatoswatter It was standardized long before anyone knew what it would take I think.
 
And even when it was implemented it proved to be useless. So I don't think that's a good parallel at all.
 
user142019
I'mma go to bed.
 
12:54 AM
And there wasn't anything to show for a long, long time.
 
You're comparing something deep in the core language to a fairly superficial part of the library.
 
Hello
 
@Potatoswatter If you say so, does that mean there is an implementation that demonstrates your suggestion not to be uesless?
5 mins ago, by Potatoswatter
I really think it would be better to deprecate the constexpr qualifier from function declarations entirely.
Are we talking about ^this?
 
@LucDanton EDG implemented it, and they reported that no customers cared.
 
@Potatoswatter Yeah that doesn't answer what I asked at all. You're just throwing words at me.
 
12:55 AM
If you had a rowboat, what would you name it?
 
@LucDanton No, I'm talking about constexpr algorithms such as any_of.
 
Oh okay. That makes more sense.
 
I have a website, and I'm just curious as to how I can have the ability for teachers to sign up for the site, and be verified as an actual teacher? I know it's unrelated to C++ lol Does anyone here know if all teachers get a special id or something?
 
6 mins ago, by Luc Danton
I'm not concerned about what's at all possible or not. I'm concerned with the low hanging fruit that is worth allocating resources to, and I don't think more constexpr functions are part of that.
 
Needs more templates and namespaces.
 
12:56 AM
^ I meant that towards constexpr functions in general. As in, making them more useful.
 
Deprecating the constexpr qualifier would simply consist of applying the same checks when the function is actually used in a constant expression.
 
I think Tony presents a nice case so I upvoted him.
 
user142019
@Zachrip In your database you store a Boolean field is_teacher.
 
@Potatoswatter That's not useful at all. (Because constexpr functions are not useful right now.)
 
There are no "no diagnostic required" checks, AFAIK, so it doesn't actually tell the compiler anything. Meanwhile it's misleading to the user, see the link I posted.
@LucDanton I beg to differ. They're a pain but they certainly work.
 
12:58 AM
I saw the link and I agreed with Tony. :D
 
@Potatoswatter ... working is not the same thing as being useful :s Is that on purpose?
 
@rightfold No, I know how to store data and such, the question was do teachers have a special id or something like that given to them by the gov't or anywhere else? This is to verify if they're actually teachers.
 
user142019
I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
@LucDanton They can be made useful with sufficient effort. The effort is certainly less than the equivalent TMP metafunction so I would say they are a net gain.
 
There is no effort needed for TMP metafunctions, they are already known to work and to be useful.
 
12:59 AM
@rightfold I have a website. I have the option for teachers to sign up, and the options for students. I need a way to verify that when someone signs up as a teacher, they're actually a teacher.
 
@LucDanton What are we talking about? A given algorithm is easier to write and clearer to read using functions than class templates.
 
In "They can be made useful with sufficient effort.", the 'effort' designates the amount of work for changing the specs for constexpr functions.
 
@Zachrip gl w/ that.
 
In "A given algorithm is easier to write and clearer to read using functions than class templates.", 'effort' would refer to the burden of a user of the language.
I.e. you're not making any sense.
 
@LucDanton Are you talking about adjusting the standard or adjusting a particular program? Arrggh the ambiguity.
Maybe we should get a voice chat instead.
 
1:02 AM
@Rapptz Yea, I doubt it's possible, just trying to find a way.
See ya guys.
 
5 mins ago, by Potatoswatter
Deprecating the constexpr qualifier would simply consist of applying the same checks when the function is actually used in a constant expression.
 
@Zachrip You need to have an admin validation to verify if they're teachers or not.
 
^ conversion is about the Standard. You're the one that brought up the alleged ease-of-use of constexpr functions over metafunctions, and I have no idea why.
 
@LucDanton I thought you were debating the utility of the constexpr function mechanism, so I was talking about programs, not the standard.
 
(And it's also a lie: you think unrestricted, better constexpr functions would be better, but constexpr functions as of today aren't.)
 
1:04 AM
@LucDanton I thought you alleged that constexpr functions aren't useful so I said that they're relatively more useful than metafunctions, which is the only metric that counts.
 
@Potatoswatter Today they're useless outside of some niche uses, which they do fulfill very nicely.
E.g. anything numerical is very, very nice to have in constant expressions. Hence why I have min, max, even rem and mod.
 
Anyway… we should probably continue this on Skype or give up because we're not on the same frequency, even if we might agree on everything!
 
@Potatoswatter They're not more useful than metafunctions. Metrics would be easy to come because metafunctions have been around since C++98.
How much do you even compute at compile-time that aren't types? What do your programs do?
 
@LucDanton No, I mean easier to implement where they're applicable.
 
@Potatoswatter Start using them right now, you'll see how niche-y they are.
They're both functions and (possibly) constant expressions, so they have the restrictions of both.
 
1:07 AM
@LucDanton I use constexpr wherever I can. Huh?
 
1 min ago, by Luc Danton
How much do you even compute at compile-time that aren't types? What do your programs do?
E.g. "string-handling" in constexpr functions gives me nightmares (those are scarequotes).
 
@LucDanton This came up because someone mentioned template< bool ... x > struct all_of.
 
Who did?
I don't recall anyone mentioning a metafunction of all_of
 
1 hour ago, by Luc Danton
logical_conjunction
 
That.. was a joke.
 
1:12 AM
That was a joke.
 
user142019
@Rapptz I read "all_of" as "ಠ_ಠ". ಠ_ಠ
 
I was paying attention to another conversation thread so I didn't distinguish the humor.
 
@rightfold Nice eyesight.
 
1 hour ago, by Jerry Coffin
@LucDanton -1. Needs more namespaces. For example, a reasonable starting point might be: utilities::operators::logical::conjunction.
 
Funny thing about that is that it sounds entirely plausible.
:|
 
1:13 AM
That's what made Jerry's answer great :D
 
Well, the GCC libstdc++-v3 implementation calls it __and_.
 
Which reminds me there's some brouhaha about putting std::optional in <utility> or some such.
 
I remember an online tool to convert a string like 'http' to '\x68\x74\x74\x70'? I forgot the name.
 
(with leading and trailing underscores)
 
44 mins ago, by Luc Danton
Ya, I may have started with and_ in the spirit of e.g. Boost.MPL but when I started to consistently use PascalCase for aliases it kinda gelled nicely. Even though And/Or don't have to be aliases.
 
1:16 AM
has someone of you used boost libraries with Assimp?
 
@nicolagenesin @ThePhD uses Assimp. I don't know if he uses Boost.
 
thank you,I'll ask him
 
He's somehow creating his own Boost library.
 
1:29 AM
recreating boost?
 
@MarkGarcia I'm not using assimp. And I'm not re-creating boost! :c
 
@ThePhD Well, let's just say you're augmenting Boost. :)
 
@nicolagenesin You should ask @BartekBanachewicz. He's using assimp and has already wrapped it up nicely.
 
user142019
I want to forward everything written to /dev/null to an LED.
 
@ThePhD Been disappointed with the large library files?
 
user142019
1:39 AM
 
@MarkGarcia I was going to statically link assimp. Except it's static library size is fairly huge (300 MB debug, 70+ MB release, and that's apparently when linking dynamically to the C++ Runtime Libraries). The DLL version is much smaller.
 
@ThePhD I've given up hope in using Assimp a long time ago. Partly because of the generated library sizes.
 
-1 video needs more freehand circles. — rightfold 2 hours ago
lol
 
2:06 AM
@AndyProwl Oh, I guess I forgot about C++ and Beyond when I listed the C++ events.
 
Is there a practical reason for java naming schemes?
 
I just found a bald spot on my head and it fucking burns, what do?
 
2:23 AM
... Wat.
 
@ThePhD exactly what I just said is what I meant
 
Dunk your head in a bucket of water.
 
Evening folks
 
Made me think of DCL
 
2:38 AM
How do I get environment variables without using getenv? I have to write my own getenv for homework.
Not sure where to start.
 
I wonder who that is.
 
now my whole face is burning, when should I be concerned?
 
What did you do, have a face-bath in some kind of chemical?
 
no but I feel sick. I hope it's a parasite, parasites are cool
 
... Rubs face.
Get yourself some medical care.
 
2:42 AM
that's expensive
 
Well then I hope you enjoy your new bald spot and burning face.
 
I won't get medical care until I'm sure I'm dying
 
Okay. :D
 
const extern **environ; <-- Is that always available?
 
no
 
2:45 AM
When is it and when isn't it?
 
Sounds implementation defined.
 
Also, is that what I want to be using for my own implementation of getenv?
 
Bit of googling around led me to the fact that extern char** environ is for POSIX
 
Generally speaking getenv is the hook for accessing the environment. So if you don't have access to that, you're coding against a particular system/platform/what have you, you should check the assignment.
 
@Rapptz Ah, cool. I found it in my textbook. So it's a POSIX standard. Thanks.
@LucDanton I'm supposed to be working with POSIX.
@rightfold Me neither, and I'm going through it.
 
2:51 AM
@Moshe I've had great luck with manpages in the past. E.g. I'd look fopen (which is Standard C), and the 'See also' section would mention open (which is Posix).
Although sometimes there's no substitute for wherever the Posix docs are at.
 
I should eat somethig.
 
@ThePhD no you shouldn't.
 
3:09 AM
Waddup yo
fine, ignore me
 
stop being a drama queen theres just nobody here
 
How am I being a drama queen?
 
the "fine, ignore me" line, its far more likely that people arent here than ignoring you
 
Yes, I know. It was a joke (yeah it was a bad joke, but still a joke). I am far from a "drama queen"
 
3:29 AM
@LucDanton Thank you, I've been using the man pages a bit. I find that searching the web for C functions causes C++ results to appear. Confusion ensues.
 
3:43 AM
why are they called man pages, anyway?
 
Because they're manuals?
 
that is what that stands for?
TIL
 
What else would it stand for
 
Obviously they're pages of men.
 
man - Manuals About kNowledge
 
3:48 AM
That doesn't even make sense
 
<(0_0)>
 

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