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6:09 AM
posted on April 25, 2024 by Marco Arena

The last episode of the series about SObjectizer and message passing: SObjectizer Tales – Epilogue by Marco Arena From the article: In this last episode, we conclude the series and offer suggestions for delving into more topics regarding SObjectizer.

 
 
14 hours later…
8:29 PM
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn We did some of that sort of stuff (but as you observed, mostly patent related stuff). Staying legal is a bit tricky--we used to turn away a lot of people when it became apparent what they really wanted was to copy somebody's chip.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:38 PM
@JerryCoffin "a lot" you say huh... Which confirms there is quite a significant market/demand for this. You have to be able to do this legally however
It's a bit like those firms who sell ECU programmers for cars. They have to reverse engineer the ECU and CAN bus communication to some degree to be able to sell their programmer. I don't know where they stand from a legal POV, yet there are a fair bit of such firms where I live and they have a sht ton of customers...
I remember being sent to such a firm many years ago through a recruiter without quite understanding their need. Once I was there they openly said they want people who are able to reverse engineer all of the above, be familiar with challenge-response paradigms and what not. IMO extremely interesting but a fairly esoteric skillset
Needless to say they paid highly above average and were willing to give me any company car I wanted
I remember some of the cars they reverse engineered were lamborghinis
@JerryCoffin I do however wonder how you market your services once you have such a firm. I presume just having a website be online out of the blue is far from being enough
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn Yes--the owner of the company I worked for was a member of several professional organizations, and spend endless amounts of time going to meetings, giving speeches, and so on. lesusacanada.org, aipla.org, etc.
 
@JerryCoffin How would you suggest to develop such skills? This is really very broad... so you have to start somewhere and focus somewhere to begin with
 
9:54 PM
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn What skills? Reverse engineering or marketing or ...?
 
lol yhea I meant the reverse engineering, ie firmware extraction, binary level reverse engineering, chip identification
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn As Nike says, "just do it". I don't know of much beyond that.
 
Alright, fair enough :)
@JerryCoffin How does that actually work for you wrt patents? Do you have random companies come over claim competitor X copied their product Y and you have to reverse engineer that copy to prove or disprove?
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn More or less, yes. In some cases (e.g., IBM), they have enough patents that they kind of take for granted that anybody in the right business just about has to be using some of them, so it's mostly a question of figuring out which ones.
 
@JerryCoffin did you guys have those very expensive lasers/microscopes to decap chips and analyze them at the transistor level?
Kinda like these I guess
 
10:09 PM
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn When I first started in that business, geometries were large enough that you could still use optical microscopes, and we had those. Pretty good/expensive ones. But when geometries shrank below the wavelength of light, those weren't adequate any more. When we had to use electron microscopes and such, we got that done by labs that specialize in that work. We always had outside labs deal with decapping and delayering chips.
 
@JerryCoffin Last question for today... :p What if you fail to reverse engineer the product in question? I presume some products are very well protected/secured. Was that common? I presume the client then doesn't have to pay, since you weren't able to provide any info
 
@LandonZeKepitelOfGreytBritn Kind of depends on what we were looking for and who the customer was. Sometimes we'd buy a couple chips and get them decapped at our own expense, so we could take a look to be reasonably certain how difficult a real investigation was going to be. But especially for hardware work, outright failure was exceptionally rare--it was almost entirely a question of how much it would cost.
About the only time we ran into outright failure was when we simply couldn't obtain the parts they wanted us to look at. In a few cases, we had to be pretty resourceful to find them. There was once we were looking for a specific brand of memory chips that nVidia was using on their graphics cards, but they had multiple sources, so finding cards with the right memory wasn't easy. But the card I'd bought six months before had the right ones, so I got a free upgrade...
 

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