« first day (3834 days earlier)      last day (1099 days later) » 
00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

12:09 AM
I created a virtualenv and then activated it and using it right now using VS Code but when I try to install new module(using pip), the command line uses the default python interpretter, not the virtual one. Any ideas?
 
You need to activate it even harder
 
Pretty sure its activated too. Got the (virt) C:\FilePath> right there
 
In VS Code?
 
Yes in the VS Code integrated terminal
Whats more weird is, when I say pip freeze I get all the libraries installed in the global python too. But when I run the file it gives ImportError.
 
12:25 AM
Hey, all! I was hoping to get some reopen support -- this question that I found and answered has been closed, supposedly for missing several key items, but those items are already in the question: stackoverflow.com/q/67090741/208880 -- thanks for checking! :-)
 
Did the SO reopen vote count increase? I have some memory of it being only 2 votes to reopen and 3 votes to close a question.
 
I have no idea. There was a post a couple months ago about the change but I didn't pay close attention to it.
 
@EthanFurman Cool, anyway I have casted my vote
 
Many thanks.
 
 
3 hours later…
3:11 AM
cbg, stackoverflow.com/questions/67101398/… not my question, but I would like to know why this happens, I can repro the behavior
 
 
2 hours later…
4:54 AM
@python_user general room guidance is that you should wait until the question is 48 hours old before asking for help here
anyway, posted an answer
 
tripleee I am aware of that, I was just curious to know what experts thought about that question, as I mentioned it is not my question
 
 
2 hours later…
6:57 AM
Cbg
Any clue what the python3.10 package is on Ubuntu? I see on python.org that the newest version is 3.9, so I wonder what that is
 
7:10 AM
You mean you don't build from source!? :p
 
7:24 AM
@JonClements I just had to, the deadsnake ppa is somehow broken, I always got a 404
Python builds surprisingly fast even on the prod machine
This brings me to my next question :P I guess there is no easy way to "swap out" a python version from a virtualenv? Like keep all the other packages in place and just use another python version?
 
I'd probably just build a requirements file, rebuild a venv... delete the old one, then rename the new one...
I can imagine some weird stuff happening trying to "swap" bits out
 
yes, this is what I ought to do, but meh, work :D
 
probably less work and error prone that trying to complicate it :)
 
Hm, curious. having been spoilt by conda, i was curious, is there something in python that can seamlessly manage both the environment and the multiple python versions together?
 
but one is for sure work, vs potentially more work 99% but also a small chance of less work :D And I'm a gambler at heart :D
@ParitoshSingh so conda can do that?
 
7:30 AM
oh yeah, conda is a one-stop shop but you'd still be creating a new environment and doing the installation there
there's no "free swapping" for python versions. Sounds like a recipe for disaster
Just that conda makes it painless to get an environment with a specific python* version with specific packages. 1 command, actually
 
hmmm I'm gonna leave this rest for now I think, just use the workaround of putting everything in try excepts and then log. But I really wonder what is causing the diff. If it's the different python versions or the different package versions of zeromq or other libraries. Just seem like an odd error
Was there some change between 3.6.6 and 3.8.5 which affects logging in a major way? Or which affects what goes to stdout and stderr?
 
sounds like the requirements.txt file would help you experiment and retain your sanity in the long run
just do pip freeze or whatever the cool kids do these days, i dunno
and then, instead of trying to overwrite the existing environment, make a new separate one with a diff python version and experiment
 
We have one, but we also have some C++ stuff which would need to be recompiled and it's error prone because it's quite hardware specific and it's Ubuntu 18.04 and I plan to just finish the refactor and then not touch 18.04 anymore and just continue with 20.04 so it might not be worth it to chase after this for now
 
ah i see
 
7:51 AM
@ParitoshSingh Thanks for the advice it motivated me to still give it a try. I got the main app running and it is really the python version :) Which seems very odd, but at least I have consitent logging now, no matter what other attributes I define in my class. So something must have been fixed inbetween 3.6.6 and 3.8.0
 
Glad to hear :)
 
Now to my next stunt, trying to run some parts of the app with 3.8.0 and others with 3.6.6 :D
 
8:21 AM
If a class Foo has a Bar do you configure and and create an instance of Bar outside and pass it to Foo or do you pass the config options to Foo and create Bar inside of Foo? I did the second one mostly, but I'm wondering if the first one would make more sense and if there are any benefits/drawbacks to either
 
I prefer to keep the default __init__ path constructed as "pass in a Bar". Makes refactoring and unittests much easier.
Keep a second @classmethod constructor from configs if you need to.
 
@MisterMiyagi sounds right
 
Case in point, we have quite a headache with one project that uses the magic configuration blob approach. It works, but is rather cumbersome to make changes.
 
i think context matters, but the second one definitely does make sense in at least some contexts. One example that i can think of is an email parsing library, where it had an email class and an attachment class. it made sense to pass a path, and have it make both emails and attachments as necessary
 
hi. let say i have a numpy array with floats ar.shape [10,3]
if i do
for row in ar:
row[:] = np.array ([1,1,1,])
it'll set ar to ones
BUT
if I also have
idx = array([False, False, False, False, True, False, False, False, True,
False])
for row in ar[idx,:]:
row[:] = np.array ([1,1,1,])
ar is not edited
how can i edit ar from for loop?
 
8:34 AM
obligatory question: why would you want to? This should be doable without a loop.
 
well, i do something like row[:] = some_function (row)
i also tried apply_along_axis
but couldnt get it to work
 
step 1, dont loop in numpy. step 2, look at step 1
here's an example that shows how to do it.
import numpy as np
arr = np.zeros((10, 3))
idx = np.array([0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0]).astype(bool)
# select the array using your booleans, assign 1 directly,
# let it broadcast to the shape as necessary
arr[idx] = 1

print(arr)
 
@StipeGalić It's probably best if you try to get help from us on fixing the initial problem, instead of your workaround. Please check out the code formatting guide for chat while you are at it.
 
9:03 AM
hi, does anyone know why when I run this:
for index in range(len(day_valuation_tuples)-1,-1,-1):
    if max is None or day_valuation_tuples[index] > max:
        print(day_valuation_tuples[index])
i got this:
TypeError: '>' not supported between instances of 'list' and 'builtin_function_or_method'
 
uhm, max is a builtin in python, don't use it as a variable name
it sounds like you never assigned/defined max (but as i said, don't use max as a variable in the first place) and are expecting it to just work
 
note that even if you fix max being unassigned, day_valuation_tuples[index] is still a list – that's likely not intentional.
By the way, it seems you want to reverse-iterate. Just do for element in reversed(day_valuation_tuples): instead of the index+range+math loop.
 
it works now. I forgot that max is a built in haha
then how can I calculate the lenght of that in reverse @MisterMiyagi?
 
which direction you iterate in doesn't affect it's length...
 
@JackZakiZakiulFahmiJailani the point is that you don't need to calculate the length in that case.
 
9:29 AM
Actually, what I want to do is to get the maximum number of the all second list of a tuple, but I want to return the corresponding first list of that maximum number. I tried it, but it doesnt work like this:
for index in [item[1] for item in day_valuation_tuples]:
    if maximum is None or day_valuation_tuples[index] > maximum:
        maximum = day_valuation_tuples[day]
        maxDay = day
        print(maxDay)
 
It's difficult to help you further without a MCVE.
Take note that if you are searching for any maximum, max can usually do that for you. It's key function allows for arbitrary transforms and selections.
 
cbg
 
something like max(item[1] for item in day_valuation_tuples) or max(day_valuation_tuples, key=lambda item: item[1]) should do.
 
raf
off topic: Is it possible to add links with 'target=“_blank”' in Markdown in Github readme.md?
I tried this way: [link](url){:target="_blank"}
But it didn't work. I know it's possible by HTML tags. But I was wondering if github's markdown itself can handle it or not.
 
9:45 AM
can this be MCVE @MisterMiyagi ?:
with open('/valuations.json') as f:
  day_valuation_tuples = json.load(f)

def calculate_maximum_valuation(day_valuation_tuples: list) -> int:
    """Calculate the maximum value that the stock could have taken between the first and last valuation in the input.

    :param day_valuation_tuples: List of tuples, each (days_since_start: int, valuation_in_euros: int).
    :return: The maximum value that the stock may have taken, with the assumptions described above.
    :raises ValueError: If the valuations in the input are not possible
 
Hi, I hope everything is alright with you all. I have been working on a method called Conflation where it involves combining distributions together whether it's discrete or continuous. The part that I am working on is the continuous part and in the equation, it requires using integration.
The part I am struggling with is the integration part, for further details, the question can be found in this discussion (chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/230933/…) and question (stackoverflow.com/questions/64346110/…)
 
10:33 AM
Wow threads don't even swallow exceptions by default. Only in 3.6.6. What a great improvement in 3.8. Now I don't have to add try except: log to every run method :)
 
10:54 AM
@JackZakiZakiulFahmiJailani close but not quite, because this code as-is still needs a valuations.json file to run. An mcve would let someone else take your code, run it start to finish and see the issue. So, one way to do that is to create day_valuation_tuples with 2 or 3 items purely in memory for example, instead of reading from a file.
Now, having said that, couple strange things i notice: why are you iterating backwards, i don't see anything your code is doing that needs it to be backwards to succeed. Second, you've got return maxDay indented, so the loop never actually gets to loop, a return immediately stops the function from doing anything else and returns a value to the caller
Third, what's funny is, max itself is the function you seem to be requiring, but you're using a manual looping for it as opposed to just using max itself. max can be given a key argument for the max criteria, and that part miyagi has already shown you how to do.
 
I'm very, very confused and think I'm going through a user error on my part. I'm using kmeans to label some data with sklearn, but it doesn't agree with itself?
https://pastebin.com/iTprmJrL
Am I doing something very obvious wrong?
Like, for the first sample it disagrees with itself but with the last sample it agrees with itself?
 
11:21 AM
Asyncio question. Say I have a function async_gen that returns an async iterable (used like async for x in async_gen():). I also have another function async_gen_2 that does an await and then returns an async generator by calling async_gen(). The problem is, if I do return async_gen(), then async_gen_2 isn't an async generator function, so it has to be called like async for x in (await async_gen_2()):. So I have to do async for x in async_gen(): yield x instead.
Is there an easy way to avoid this kind of boilerplate code? The same problem exists for async context managers as well. (Demo)
 
bet miyagi has probably written something for this or something :P
oh, btw how did your dataclass subclass thing go, all good now?
 
Hi, I had a doubt regarding the use of [0] in these two cases:
ktvertArray = np.where(np.round(dayarray, 2) == np.round(ktvert, 2))[0]
and
temp = np.where(np.round(dayarray[j + 1], 2) == np.round(TPMXindex / 100, 2))
arr = list(temp[0])
 
suggestion, save the result without the [0] and take a look at what the result is
then try to ask yourself why the [0] is used.
 
@ParitoshSingh Oh yeah, thanks for that. Works like a charm
 
ah nice
 
11:28 AM
@ParitoshSingh.. i tried removing it... it still saves as an array
 
Overriding __new__ was a bit tricky because object.__new__ stops accepting arguments when your class defines its own __new__, but that wasn't too hard to deal with
def __new__(cls, *args, **kwargs):
    super_new = super().__new__

    if super_new is object.__new__:
        args, kwargs = (), {}

    return super_new(cls, *args, **kwargs)
I did that ^ kinda thing
 
@cmk101010 are you sure? run type on it
 
oh sorry... tuple without and array with.. just to clarify,, whats bad about tuples.. I know they are immutable, but can we perform numpy operations on them?
not on them*.. basically to make comparisions, not changing the data in the tuples
 
@cmk101010 sorry, this question makes no sense to me
OK, I think I get it
Yes, if you have a tuple with a single array inside it, and you want the array instead, you have to take it out of the tuple. Is this confusing?
and whoever wrote arr = list(temp[0]), please tell them to stop doing that
 
yes, i think so... when I looked up online, they say that tuples are more efficient than lists for loops,
are numpy arrays faster than tuples for many nested loops?
 
11:38 AM
:(
 
Iteration speed is nothing you should ever need to worry about. It's all O(n).
 
O(n)?
 
It's a measure of time complexity
 
why do u say that it is not important.. with many nested loops, doesn't it come into play?
 
every time you write a loop over numpy arrays, a kitten dies
 
11:47 AM
i was always under the impression to use numpy arrays instead of lists for loops
 
@cmk101010 No. If you have a bunch of nested loops, you have bigger problems to worry about than how quickly you can iterate over your container.
 
@cmk101010 then you were always wrong. Please read a numpy tutorial.
it will benefit us all
 
@Aran-Fey if the async_gen_2 doesn't need to await inside, then you can make it sync and just return async_gen().
Otherwise, that's what yield from is for and we are not allowed to have that with async, no no.
 
We'd actually need an async yield from as well
 
true, true
You could write a wrapper for the case where you emulate "yield from" only in the end, but nothing general I'm afraid.
Hm, that's only half-true. One could use a trampoline and then yield nested generators with a wrapper.
Gosh, I hate async. It's way too much fun trying to work around all the restrictions...
@yield_fromable
async def async_gen2():
    await asyncio.sleep(0)
    yield async_from(async_gen())
 
11:56 AM
Trampoline sounded fun until I ruined it by looking it up on google
 
^that'd be possible
@Aran-Fey Madness helps.
 
With a function decorator, surely you could do something nicer than that?
@coro_to_iter
async def async_gen2():
    await asyncio.sleep(0)
    return async_gen()
Any reason why that ^ wouldn't work?
 
it would, but only if you "yield from" as the last action.
@yield_fromable
async def async_gen2():
    await asyncio.sleep(0)
    yield async_from(async_gen())
    await asyncio.sleep(10)  # busy farming SO rep
 
Oh, true
 
shouldn't have read the yield from PEP. doing this right might be complicated.
 
12:12 PM
Should be easy enough if it's limited to the async iterable (and not async generator) protocol though, no?
(i.e. async_gen2 only needs to return an async iterable, not an async generator)
 
yeah, pure .__next__ chaining would be pretty easy. .send and return are a bit of a chore. .throw seems like a nightmare.
 
isn't there an __anext__ ?
 
there's an "a" in all of them, but my muscle memory refuses to yield
 
12:36 PM
try ayield then
(that was a joke. im sorry)
 
How is it possible that something on the pc which uses my ports survives a power cycle? I unplug the device plug it back in but on restart I get address already in use for my zeromq publisher, I would assume cutting the power also deletes all publisher?
 
Quick question: Let's say I have a subfolder called logs, which is located in a different folder. Inside my function, I have this fh = logging.FileHandler("/home/folder/requests_add.log")
My aim is to do something like this fh = logging.FileHandler("../logs/requests_add.log")
I was thinking of using the sys library
 
12:52 PM
There shouldn't be a problem using either of these two code snippets.
 
@MisterMiyagi you mean without using the sys library?
 
What do you think you need sys for?
 
for something like that

`import sys`

`sys.path.insert(1, '../logs')`
 
stop right there. That's not what sys.path is there for.
 
you'd mess with sys if you needed to import .py files from unorthodox places. but you can always give an absolute or a relative path to a log from wherever you are, without having to mess with sys. it's like writing to a text file in a different folder
do you need to mess with sys to write to a different destination a simple text file? no, right?
 
12:59 PM
@MisterMiyagi cheers guys
nah. It is to tell the location, nothing else.
 
1:39 PM
"GetWidgetState(i) returns an int representing whether a widget is reticulated. If widget #3 is reticulated, GetWidgetState(3) returns 1."
"Yup"
"And GetWidgetStates() returns a list of states for the eight widgets in the current batch. So if I call GetWidgetStates while only widget 3 is reticulated, I should get back [0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0]."
"Makes sense to me"
"Ok, now do `print(GetWidgetState(3), GetWidgetStates())`"
"`1 [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]`"
Working with buggy libraries, a tragic play in 1 act
 
aah, such joy
 
Found a post from 2012 with my exact problem. One existing answer at -3 votes, saying "here, try this", followed by the exact code I'm already running. OP's last comment says "I think I'll just do GetWidgetStates = lambda: [GetWidgetState(i) for i in range(8)]"
I'm fortunate that I can hack in a replacement, so this isn't a DenverCoder scenario. But it's still troublesome
This is inside the tightest most CPU-bound loop of my program so I really would have liked to avoid having seven extra Python function calls
 
When a library has an awful interface like that, it's always a gamble - it can either be really really optimized, or just really really bad. Sounds like the latter in this case
 
1:54 PM
@Kevin how do you feel about extension modules and JIT?
 
@Kevin Is the destructive nature of the read operation a feature? :)
 
As far as I can tell, no. I can call GetWidgetState(3) a hundred times a second and it returns 1 every time, so none of them are destructive with each other. And GetWidgetStates behaves the same whether I call GetWidgetState before hand or not.
@AndrasDeak If it turns my impractically slow program into a practically fast enough one, I feel only appreciation
 
@Kevin if you have a tight loop then something like numba (or cython but I don't know how to use that) might help with the overhead. Probably less work than using the C API yourself :P But numba is mostly number-geared, so whether it will work depends a lot on your kind of problem.
 
A commenter in the 2012 thread theorizes, "maybe GetWidgetStates only shows 1 for widgets that have left the reticulatron, but haven't yet entered the frobnicatrix. The two machines are a foot apart on the assembly line and the conveyor belt moves at 100 mph, so the window of opportunity is pretty small"
Which makes some sense... There's no strong consensus in the industry to the question of "is a reticulated widget still reticulated after it's frobnicated?". If the dev that wrote GetWidgetStates is in the "no" camp, then returning all zeroes is sensible.
 
def GetFallingLogMakesSound():
 
2:01 PM
The real problem is using the opposite assumption for GetWidgetState, and not documenting either one
WidgetLib devs, please implement GetWidgetState(debate_camp="yes"), thanks in advance
 
Better enumerate those camps, lest the great Widget Debate Camp Schism of 2022 spells doom...
 
Notice that I have wisely not indicated my own personal opinion, in order to prevent a vim/emacs style firestorm
 
2:26 PM
Did someone say tabs? I'm a fan of spaces, myself
 
Is a tab still a tab after your IDE automatically inserts four spaces instead? :hmm emoji:
 
If you use tabs instead of spaces and no one is around to complain, does Santa know?
 
The Python Secret Underground will know, and you don't want to mess with the PSU, even though they are clearly a figment of my demented imagination. Nobody can ~~**$#@ [carrier lost]
 
2:42 PM
Programming is the art of turning ideas into tangible form, and high level practitioners like holden may find themselves doing it without tools or intent
Consult your local OSHA representative for proper safety measures when working with The Veil between reality and the platonic realm
 
is there a canonical answer for "how to make a copy of an object when inserting into a list so that not all objects in the list are a reference to the same thing" ? couldn't find one listed here, no pun intended
 
Hard hat, steel toe boots, dreamcatcher, silver dagger
@aneroid Perhaps sopython.com/canon/128/…, although it doesn't work on all kinds of objects
 
this comes close: sopython.com/canon/39/…
@Kevin thanks, that one will do fine
 
Making a deepcopy of an arbitrary object would be quite challenging, unless you're fine with basically copying the entire program state
But that's academic -- in practice copy.deepcopy is sufficient for most builtin types and user defined classes
 
agreed, but it's usually the user asking why a list of lists becomes all duplicated, rather than about arbitrary objects
 
2:48 PM
Yeah
I do love to answer the most difficult possible variation of a question
 
honestly, that would make the perfect list of canonical answers, coz it would cover such a large scope
otherwise it's the 20 minor variations of the same problem
 
3:08 PM
Ok, finally got everything put together so I can run my project on real data... And, error accumulates to catastrophic levels after five seconds. Ok then.
 
what is the best way to get the only item of a set without removing it from the set? I know of ways, but I want the best way.
 
I tend to use next(iter(set_)), but looking at it objectively, something like tuple(set_)[0] is probably more readable
 
I wonder how they compare time-wise.
tuple() is technically O(N), never mind that we already know N=1 here :-P
 
@MisterMiyagi :51987356 That's what I found out this morning when it didn't work, cheers - I don't know how I would have figured out that was this issue. I would probably have assumed a timezoning issue. What I'm trying to do is cache results, but the no-arg default is 'today' and that will be updated over night, so not caching no-arg calls into following days is what I was going for. The next evolution is to to explicitly call by date, so that won't be an issue.
 
I use next(iter(set_)) as well and that is what prompted this question
 
3:16 PM
@Aran-Fey I find the former more readable. PiR2 probably likes [*set_][0] :P
 
lol
 
Still better than set_.copy().pop()
 
is_it_though.gif
 
Unless the constructors for tuple/list have special casing for set arguments, they probably end up calling next and iter anyway, in which case tuple(x)[0] would be objectively slower than next(iter(x))
Whether it's "noticeably" slower is left as an exercise to the reader
 
Hmm, I can't tell if something like x, = set_ or [x] = set_ would be neat or hard to understand
 
3:19 PM
@piRSquared (set_:={(val:=set_.pop())})
@Aran-Fey former is an existing pattern but I avoid it for the easy to miss aspect
 
@piRSquared (my_set.add(val:=my_set.pop()). Add parentheses as required.
Wondering if pattern matching solves this...
 
How crazy is x, *_ = set_?
 
Given the evidence I'm going to announce next(iter(x)) as the speed winner
 
@MisterMiyagi yes
maybe?
(it's classified)
 
3:26 PM
@Aran-Fey I'd prefer your initial x, = set_ (or maybe (x,) = set_ for readability) if you really just expect to get one item.
 
Man, I miss the Obama memes
He was a fun dude
 
Obama era Meme Biden was fun too, but I don't think liberal youngish adults want to paint him with that particular brush any more
Neither the "I tilted all the paintings by three degrees to annoy the POTUS after us" flavor, nor the Onion's variant of "hey, it's Diamond Joe, I'm in jail. They frisked me at the bar and I exceeded the legal limit of concealed switchblades"
 
since when has iterable unpacking supported completely ignoring remaining items? I always thought x, *_ = iterable was the only way and not x, = iterable
ie the latter requires x = next(iterable)
 
x, = iterable will only work if there is exactly one item in iterable
 
since never
 
3:34 PM
@MisterMiyagi ah ok. guess I never used it for that. always did some version of tuple(set_)[0] or similar
 
although this would be an interesting new addition to 3.11 supported by the new parser
 
@AndrasDeak I've found my new weapon.
 
I'll make x, = [1,2] syntactically valid in KPython as a fun surprise
 
@Kevin make x contain 3
 
obj <3 evaluates to False for all objects because computers cannot experience love
 
3:46 PM
@Kevin I really hope that in 20 years, the bots at boston dynamics don't read your post and annihilate us for our ignorance / speciesicism :P
 
Oh, good point. Revision: consumer grade computers cannot experience love as of 2021.
 
(:thumbs up:) /me claps at the appropriate correction
 
I have no problem believing that by 2041 we'll have emulated something like consciousness
(although I also have no problem believing that AI research will stagnate for decades. Either is good for me)
 
"I believe we'll have strong AI in 20 years", a feelings that's been around since 1950 =D
 
3:49 PM
assuming no major setbacks to progress (covid, other disease, world war, global climate events, zombies, etc.) that timeline seems realistic
 
-they have said since 1950
 
@AndrasDeak I have long appreciated this comic, it deserves much more recognition in the memeosphere
Maybe "a simple question drives me to doubt the value of weeks of work" is only relatable to me
I'm basically never not doing that
 
"Once computers have memory exceeding ~500MB, we'll be able to create consciousness no problem, because 500MB is enough to store an enzyklopedia, and that's roughly how much a human knows" - AI bighsot a long time ago, seemed realistic to the people at that time
spoiler, they missed a couple of things
 
@AndrasDeak indeed. but consciousness is barely understood - and now it's accepted more widely that it's barely understood. so "simulating a brain/consciousness" is more open-ended now than it was prior, which allows "lesser-AI" to be a meetable goal. for true general purpose-AI, that's still probably very very very far away.
 
It takes much less than that to make me doubt the value of my work. Let a project rest for half a year and I'll wonder why I ever bothered starting it
 
3:53 PM
@Arne Love is easier than Strong AI. A puppy can love its owner, but it can't bootstrap its intelligence and conquer Earth. </half-serious>
 
you're making lots of enemies here, first computers, now puppies..
4
I heard a puppy is an admin here, just saying
 
"web page blocked" comic of my life...
 
I trust that the uplifted dogs of 2051 won't eradicate humanity, because a little twiddling in CRISPR won't override the interspecies loyalty they've had for all of recorded history
 
<3 thanks AD
and hey, never seen that one before!
 
3:56 PM
because it's blocked
 
i suppose the question is...but why
 
@Kevin isn't that exactly what CRISPR is meant to do? create gene mutations that are either impossible or would require generations of randomness to occur naturally?
 
AFAIK yeah, but surely they can just set the "intelligence" gene to "yes" while leaving the loyalty gene where it is
 
turning dogs into human hating overlords? crispr is a lot of things. turning dogs into cats is not one of them.
 
@Kevin oh, I just meant reverting dogs to their wolf-like ancestral mentality "kill non-wolves, run from bigger animals"
 
3:59 PM
@aneroid pugs with ancestral mentality....
 
@Arne Jon's doing a good job working up the world domination ladder, seeing as he's already at Moderator. But I think his strategy has pivoted from "superintelligence" to "cuteness" since the latter is easier to optimize
 
that's true smarts right there
knowing when to stop with the hard work
 
@AndrasDeak sorry, I don't understand that one - are they cute? like the one in MiB1?
PS. whose job is it to throw all this into the knife room once we're done?
 
General-purpose AI won't happen until an electric storm zaps the laptop that I threw in the mud puddle in my backyard.
 
4:03 PM
@AndrasDeak hahaha fair enough. must revert harder :P
 
@piRSquared primordial soup? Old school, I like it
 
I feel bad for pugs and their common health problems. I'd CRISPR them back into a more sensible form if I could. But regular mixed breed dogs have a decent hand dealt to them IMO, so they can stay as-is
 
There's the retromop that rebred the original pugs without the health issues
 
Oh, nice. I'm rooting for pug 2.0.
 
you could market it as alpha-pug
 
4:08 PM
Pug Classic
 
@Arne I think that's where we are at right now.
 
how has the SPCA or PETA not manage to outlaw dogshows? it promotes cruel practices of creating "mutants" / freaks which are likely uncomfortable/miserable; all for the entertainment of very few very rich humans
 
@Kevin 30 Rock reference?
 
I love that show, but no not intentionally
short-snout pugs are a bit beyond alpha because apparently 1800s era pugs were reasonably healthy and not squash-faced
 
cabbage
 
4:12 PM
@Code-Apprentice you may want to read the room a bit before casually throwing out that cabbage... know what you've stepped into... so to speak.
 
@aneroid Perhaps the SPCA is stymied because they're basically all independently run, so it's harder to campaign on a unified message. PETA seems more unified, but I've noticed them losing public appeal in recent years due to a history of radical statements
 
I read a few of the recent messages. Sounds like a lively discussion about pugs and animal rights.
 
@Code-Apprentice and Kevin, in advance, making enemies with our future overlords - computers and puppies. let's not forget to throw him under the bus
 
@Kevin how will we tell the difference between emulation and "real" consciousness? For that matter, how can I tell if my consciousness is not an emulation?
 
If your brain is mostly meat and water, you're conscious. If it's mostly silicon and copper, you're emulatedly conscious.
A simple metal detector will help you tell the difference.
 
4:22 PM
maybe my meat and water brain is just a really good VR simulation
 
@Kevin "The Cylons Were Created by Man. They Rebelled. They Evolved. They Look and Feel Human."
 
oh I guess the whole "brains on a spaceship" thing still assumes a physical brain in a vat of water. Just the rest of our experiences would be simulated in such a case.
 
If you suspect you're in a VR simulation, open up the admin console using the ~ key, and you should see isInsideVR: True projected on your retinal HUD
Among other debug information such as position, mood, and numberOfSpidersEatenDuringSleep
 
lol, the Matrix devs left their debugging backdoors accessible
 
@aneroid That's fine. If they have meat brains, then I welcome them into my arcology city-state.
Philosopies of mind are banned here except in the soundproofed argument dome
 
4:25 PM
Emulation or simulation inherently attempts to emulate or simulate something else that existed prior. Is the path to our "consciousness" unique? Meaning, did we arrive at our current state in a novel way? I believe that is likely. But our "consciousness" is definitely the consequence of some processes.
 
so does only the brain have to be meat and water? The rest can be metal and silicon?
 
Yeah
 
how do you separate them for the aforementioned metal detector?
 
do you mean "meatal" detector?
 
5 mins ago, by Kevin
A simple metal detector will help you tell the difference.
The assumption here seems to be that a meat and water brain won't set of the metal detector. What about my hip joint replacement?
 
4:27 PM
If you're still organic from the neck up, they can use a handheld wand. If you've replaced your skull with adamantium, you should have gotten an official government Human Certification card after the procedure. It's a pain to carry around, I know, but they say it's worth being indestructible.
 
@Kevin ok, contra to that - if we do manage to transfer human consciousness to a computer - would that qualify as real or emulated?
 
Just focus the metal detector on the head. "But what if I don't have my brain there?"
 
@aneroid Emulated, but it will be politically incorrect to mention it to them
 
Oh, "Philosopies of mind are banned here except in the soundproofed argument dome". nvm, then
 
This current conversation is happening outside of my arcology's legal jurisdiction, so you're good
 
4:29 PM
philosophy of mind is a fun rabbit hole to indulge in every once in a while, even when it isn't entirely serious. At the end of the day, I conclude that there are some things I just have to accept as "real" without actually knowing that I'm not in the Matrix.
 
Yeah, "my perception of reality is trustworthy, unless evidence strongly indicates otherwise" is basically an unshakable axiom of my life style
 
@Kevin perhaps Containerised Consciousness, instead?
 
I assume myself to be not in the Matrix unless I see some sick gravity-defying kung fu and gunplay in person
 
We are in A matrix. Maybe not the one you imagined, but we're there.
 
There were popsci articles a few years back saying "hey our universe might actually be a hologram" and I thought rad, I like holograms
even though I don't understand how they work no matter how many times I read their wikipedia article
 
4:35 PM
@Kevin that's what the machines want you to believe!? :p
 
That's the whole "Encode 3-D space on the 2-D surface of a black-hole" thing. So maybe, if we're on the inside of a black hole... then all of "this" (waves arms around) is encoded on the (1 dimension less) surface of the black hole we're in.
A hologram is basically encoding N-Dimensional information in N-1 dimensions.
 
the main draw of the simulation theory is the logic/reason presented by E.Musk: based on how quickly computers have evolved in the 60-70 decades, and we've created NPC's like those in GTA, it's quite likely we'll be running our own sims in a couple of decades and those NPC's won't know they're NPC's and whatever glitches occur, they tend to not notice. so how would we know we're not already NPC's in someone else's simulation (ie "the 13th floor")
 
@piRSquared that's a great handwaving explanation that doesn't actually explain anything
 
@AndrasDeak Mission accomplished!
 
It's not bad as a high level explanation of what a hologram is doing. It just doesn't tell you a dang thing about how it's doing it
 
4:39 PM
@piRSquared ooo... new avatar picture?
 
Petri dish with intestinal worms, yes
 
Much in the way that "a computer is a collection of circuits that apply logic to data" doesn't give you much of an insight into microchip manufacture
 
It looks like a bloody earth... likely to change it again
 
I couldn't make out what the avatar was, but I assumed it was something related to circles and cool math
Pi's Personal Brand
Mazes are cool and mathematical so my expectation is validated
 
has to be circle-y.. I just got creative an used Paint to fill in the path of a circle maze.
Who knew you could use Paint as a path finding algorithm.
 
4:43 PM
I did, but I'm an outlier and should not be counted because mazes and MS Paint are both in my list of weird special interests
 
I think I used flood fill in AoC
 
The antialiasing really messed me up though. Now I have to focus on modifying my curve drawing to draw a cool circle maze.
 
4:57 PM
Ok, attempt number N+1 of understanding holograms. Laser, beam splitter, light scattering, recording medium... So far so good. Uh oh, diffraction. Wave particle duality gives me a headache.
 
@Kevin don't forget that "Rimmer" was made a hard light hologram in Red Dwarf :p
 
All I know for sure about quantum stuff is that "the outcome of the double slit experiment changes when you look at it" is an astronomically simplified explanation of a real yet less interesting phenomenon
You can't use it to detect whether an observer has consciousness or not, or a soul or whatever, so there goes all the cool mystical applications
 
ray
sounds good
 
@Kevin no need for that. 100% wave.
 
Alright, cool
I think my problem is that I only have a mental model of how diffraction works when a small number of waves are passing through a small number of apertures, and fanning out from there. Unlike cameras, holograms do not use an aperture, so the waves are emitting off the object continuously along its surface
If diffraction with apertures is addition, then diffraction without apertures is calculus
 
5:14 PM
Perhaps try to understand a Fresnel lens first
No, not that
 
I'll read up on them, but I'm skeptical because lenses work on light particles, not light waves. </half-joking>
 
Except for prisms, which need to fiddle with wavelengths in order to make rainbows
 
@Kevin Newton jad a corpuscular theory of light but exactly refraction was wrong...
 
I have a feeling that I don't need to know the specific geometry of how light waves interact, as long as I know that the hologram recording process only uses operations that can be losslessly reversed by the hologram viewing process. I'm pretty confident that this is the case, but that's only a few pegs down the abstraction ladder from Pi's explanation, so I'm not yet satisfied
 
5:21 PM
Not sure if this will help but phase-sensitivity is key. You store path differences from light bouncing off, this makes 3d encoding possible
 
I wish I could encode X*Y*Z bits of data in an X*Y storage medium, it would really save me on hard drive upgrades
Hmm I just reminded myself that en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_data_storage is a thing.
 
5:41 PM
The "Physics of holography" section is doing an alright job of explaining the geometry of interfering waves from the simplest cases and on up, although it does suffer from the "draw the rest of the owl" problem
Two plane waves make a diffraction grate, sounds reasonable. A plane wave plus a point source makes a sinusoidal zone plate, ok I believe it. Now imagine you have an infinite set of point sources located at varying distances from the medium
Halt. You literally just jumped from one to infinity.
 
00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

« first day (3834 days earlier)      last day (1099 days later) »