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1:09 AM
@cmb Ah, exciting. Any objection to yoinking the ID in the process?
 
 
1 hour later…
2:09 AM
Can I just say I love how fast the GitHub actions test builds are of the docs?
 
2:27 AM
@cmb Shall I close? github.com/php/doc-en/pull/470
 
 
2 hours later…
4:05 AM
Прогон хрумером ・ *General Issues ・ #80845
 
 
3 hours later…
7:24 AM
@DaveRandom I don't currently run a profiler for the exact location, but given that most errors are exceptions now, maybe a simple preg on the output might be enough
 
 
1 hour later…
8:26 AM
github.com/symfony/symfony/issues/40389 via Reddit. This is good news
 
cmb
9:09 AM
@Crell might be better to fix that issue in the manual, but feel free to close.
@Crell I'm slightly concerned regarding translations, though.
 
10:02 AM
oci8 extension can't detect instance client under M1 ・ OCI8 related ・ #80846
 
10:58 AM
Good Morning, everyone!
 
11:21 AM
Hi everyone! It's been a long time coming here. I thought of starting a new personal project to build a web video conferencing app like zoom. Searched for some resources and ended up finding WebRTC. I went through a tutorial and it was more based on Node js. Can WebRTC be used with php? Or are there any other technologies available?
 
11:37 AM
@RifkyNiyas What's your reasoning for re-creating the wheel, when there are several versions of the wheel out already? How will yours be different/unique? What can you add that will improve upon what options exist already? How are you building a better mousetrap? These are some important questions to ask before you set out on this endeavor... unless this is purely academic.
 
Odd craving for fried pickle chips in the morning...
 
11:54 AM
Recreating zoom is on my todo list for later in the year lol
 
@MarkR I know a few companies who just license it and reskin it. It says "Powered by Zoom."
 
@StatikStasis Yeah that's part of why I need to remake it.
Going to be using Twilio's infrastructure and SDK for it. Pretty powerful stuff.
 
@MarkR Also... you should check out my stream from Saturday. I started this game that came out at the first of Feb called Valheim... it's pretty awesome if you like survival build games.
 
12:46 PM
I need some new music to listen to.
 
Listening now...
 
One day I hope to be epic enough to have a full orchestra playing at my whim
 
I have thousands of dollars worth of software and plugins I continue to buy... just need more time to spend on it.
@MarkR omg... I love that EDM and video game music is getting the recognition it deserves where it is presented in these full orchestra ensembles.
 
It certainly takes it to a new level having it played live rather than midi mixed
 
12:53 PM
@StatikStasis Start producing again! :-)
 
I know I know... need time. Of course I could have used the 7 hours I streamed on Saturday to do it but... priorities.
 
tbf I'm also trying to get back into it. Finally set up everything again after the move though so that's progress
Even managed to lay some foundations of a new track
 
YAY! More music!
@PeeHaa When I do finally do it, it will be to make some intro theme music for stream.
 
Yeah that is also still on my list to do for you :D
 
\o/
But it's got to be thumping... I mean a real banger. =D
 
12:58 PM
Yep
lol I just opened a ticket and instantly am thinking about you streaming @StatikStasis
> Hey devs! it's ya boy, Matt, coming at you with another ticket.
:D
 
LOLOL!
 
I think I need to swap out my Zoom H5 for my Mixpre 6 II for my keyboard / mic. The hiss on the H5 is awful
 
1:12 PM
That Mixpre 6 II is pretty sweet.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:22 PM
@cmb I'm mostly just trying to clean through the older issues so that you have more time to read mine. :-) But I don't know which of them I "should" be going ahead and merging.
@RifkyNiyas There are PHP-based WebRTC components for Nextcloud, which is written in PHP. However, WebRTC needs stand-alone signaling servers serving UDP. PHP could do it, but really, it's not my first choice of language for it. WebRTC is a beast of an architecture.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:44 PM
@StatikStasis I am so grateful for you to making me re-think what I am trying to do. The thing I am trying to create is a complete e-learning platform with some better functionalities. Before all of that, I want to create video- conferencing unit to the platform to conduct the live classes.
I am trying to re-invent the wheel since as far as I have experienced zoom is not something that's perfectly fit for educational purposes. I mean there are a lot of things that can go wrong with zoom on live classes. Seen a lot of dudes playing fool in online classes which I found as disturbance. I am trying to improve the security, performance and to provide more chances to maintain discipline in learning. Also to find a way to make a smooth experience for students with poor internet connection
 
if we had teacher tooling that was capable of forgiving typos that would be a start
 
@cmb I've noticed the docs sometime use <classname> and sometimes <interfacename> when referring to interfaces. Does it matter? Should i be using the latter for Stringable et al?
 
from my observation of the things I have used and seen other people using, the biggest common failing of current remote learning tools is that it is geared towards things that have right and wrong answers. The lack of unified communications is also a problem but that's hardly specific to education, and the last thing we need there (imho) is yet more sector-specific communication tools
communication is a universal problem, we need to fix the things we have instead of xkcd.com/927
imho, ymmv, etc etc
 
cmb
@Crell I think there is no difference regarding the rendering, but being semantically precise is certainly a good idea; so yes, please use <interfacename>. (also not that you sometimes find <type> instead ;))
 
Roger.
 
3:53 PM
when it comes to tools for teachers, and students, and parents, we need something that is more geared towards people instead of tests. </rant>
 
@cmb Stringable updated.
 
cmb
ta
 
 
1 hour later…
5:04 PM
I was in an online class now and kind of wandered around here and instagram. I want some kind of control to prevent from this happening by technology. I am thinking of making this app a PWA and using the an api I remember seeing which can detect user availablity if i remember it correct
 
@RifkyNiyas you want to block students from going to other sites while in an online class?
 
When considering the already used wheels, I observed something strange. Zoom API costs some money right?
 
@RifkyNiyas That seems like a pretty awful intrusion into somebody's home
 
Online testing tools tend to have that functionality, and pretty much everyone hates it.
 
If so, I have mixed feelings about that. I was a student with undiagnosed ADHD, and my mind wandering around while in a class was normal, navigating to other sites was common. On the one hand, forcing my focus on the online class would be beneficial to some extent, but unilaterally forcing me would have pissed me off
 
5:08 PM
there is absolutely nothing to stop someone from picking up another device, which is exactly what they do
 
@DaveRandom exactly
 
@Tiffany Yah. I want of those features added in my app. Something like on fiverr tests. When taking tests, a seperate window opens and when we try to get out of the window it shows some warning and if we tend to do it, then the tests is over i think. I tried once to use another tab where it showed me that warning
 
I have seen teachers disable chat in teams, guess what all the kids do immediately... they just open discord
and now all you have done is move it to somewhere the teacher can no longer observe whats happening
 
@RifkyNiyas for accessibility reasons, I recommend NOT doing that
 
doesn't sound like an improvement in any way to me
also all the kids should have their cameras and mics on, if you want it to be like a class you need to make it like a class room
 
5:10 PM
Also, most of that functionality would be implemented in Javascript client-side, not in PHP.
@DaveRandom There's increasing evidence that is harmful to the kids. Zoom Fatigue is a real thing.
 
@DaveRandom yahhh. thats exactly a problem to which I don't have a solution personally. I myself can't prevent picking the phone up when it gets bored
 
@Crell maybe not 100% of the time, but certainly at the beginning and end of the lesson
I'm talking specificall about, say, 8-16yo kids here I suppose
it has been my observation that a lack of that sort of interaction does not make for a school-like mentality
 
@Tiffany that's true. I mean not blocking the student immediately but like giving a warning to him and if he continues it several times then blocking him for a few classes may be
 
big fat ymmv, ofc
 
There are also edge cases where a student needs an external aid to understand what's going on in the class, how do you accommodate that?
 
5:14 PM
hello
 
@Crell Exactly on the point. The zoom fatigue. I am thinking out on solving that. But this seems to be a bigger solution than I might have thought
 
@RifkyNiyas punish the neurodivergent student because their brain is wired differently?
 
yeh!
oh wait, was that not a call to arms?
 
@RifkyNiyas The real solution is to get everyone vaccinated as soon as possible and go back to in-person schooling, because non-personalized video chat "school" is inferior in every conceivable way to having a real human professional physically present.
 
You are not solving it. Or rather you are trying to solve the wrong problem in the wrong way
 
5:16 PM
@DaveRandom my response is a tad kneejerk, I deleted it, and reread the sentence again, then retyped it because I felt it made sense.
Though, it is my cue to take a step back because it's an issue that hits too personally for me.
 
...and "entirely missing jokes" is the revenge of the neurodivergent students? :-P
<3
 
@DaveRandom :D
 
@Tiffany Do you mean when the class is going on? Allow the teacher to give permission for students to use external sites
 
don't restrict what people can do, school is not prison
 
^
 
5:19 PM
you have to engage them, not beat them up
 
@Crell That's what I feel too.
@DaveRandom That's 100% true. Now I am not trying to emprison the students in any way
 
If a student is accessing an external site in the middle of a class, there's usually an underlying reason why. Figure out the underlying reason, solve that. But this dives into child psychology and stuff which I'm not qualified to advise. I'm using my own experiences as a former student with undiagnosed mental issues.
 
I am trying to solve some problems that I am facing
 
also, speaking from personal experience, if I am not in the mood to do a thing, stopping me from doing other stuff isn't going to make me do that thing :-P
this is what I was saying before, so much of this stuff is geared around the idea that humans work like computers, they really very much do not
sometimes they get bored and sometimes they are in a stupid mood and answer questions with another question and generally act like teenagers, and failure to engage with that is doing a massive disservice to anyone who deviates even slightly from the artificial perfect non-existent norm
wow that's way more meta than I usually get
 
@DaveRandom I prefer "the beatings will continue until test scores have improved." I kid I kid...
 
5:23 PM
seriously though, make tools to bring people closer to each other, not cut people off from things :-)
 
@DaveRandom But it's an extremely accurate explanation of neurotypical versus neurodivergent <3
 
Since I started online classes there were more freedom to me to do anything I wished. My concentration broke and I was struggling with my studies due to literally unwanted reasons. Whenever it gets slightly bored I start scrolling Instagram throughout the session and then try to recap everything by myself and always end up being lost
 
@StatikStasis naturally, but that isn't going to work over the internet, I have tried and I just can't come up with anything that will be both effective and "legal"
 
This was something I faced and I am trying to solve it
 
computers just do not understand how to use a sock full of oranges to avoid bruising
 
5:24 PM
Electro shock accessory via USB port. Provide mild jolt by teacher remotely.
 
@RifkyNiyas might I suggest you try to learn why your concentration is breaking in the middle of classes, and trying to resolve that?
 
@StatikStasis lol with fast-charge there might even be enough juice, brb filing patent application
 
@Tiffany points to the miracle drug Adderall as seen in the movie Limitless but by a different name.
 
When studying physical there is a control of teacher towards a student right? The students cannot just wake up and run out of the class without the teacher seeing right?
 
@StatikStasis :P assuming it's ADHD, but we're neither qualified to diagnose it
 
5:26 PM
@RifkyNiyas Depends on if they are facing the chalkboard or not.
 
In online classes that is an easy thing to do and the students might end up wasting their time on what they did not wanted to do
 
@RifkyNiyas Can I ask you how old you are?
 
he didn't actually ask, only asked whether he could ask
 
k
 
5:27 PM
=D
 
ok you could :)
 
Answer was, yes.
 
He just skipped a step :P
 
in fairness, arguably 17yos are better placed than most of us to say what would be effective at school
 
@Tiffany exactly
 
5:28 PM
but... I ask you @RifkyNiyas whether a block on what you could do on your computer would actually stop you doing something if you decided you want to...
 
@DaveRandom Now if the question was about the behavior of toddlers!
 
I resemble that remark
 
@DaveRandom I still adamantly believe punishing a neurodivergent student for their difficulties is the wrong way to go about it. Age doesn't matter.
 
@DaveRandom I couldn't understand clearly
can you make it simple
 
5:30 PM
@Tiffany I don't think anyone is attempting to argue against that? :-P
 
There are certainly students who may be neurotypical who still exhibit the same behavior because "meh, school," but it's still an issue of engagement
 
In person engagement for class works a lot better for some. If the student is highly motivated they can manage their time through online classes well, however my son had a hard time adjusting to online classes versus in person because he did not have the 1on1 engagement he needs.
But I have had to step in and provide accountability there for his grades which has helped tremendously.
 
@StatikStasis that's what I am feeling too
Ok
 
@RifkyNiyas if I block your access to something you like, are you just going to give up and accept it?
 
I'm sure there will be some great innovations that come out of the pandemic for online class engagement as well as business video conferences.
 
5:33 PM
@StatikStasis there will, and microsoft will buy all of them, attempt to fold them into teams and crash them into a wall at high speed
 
If I have realized myself what I am tring to do, I am trying to make the online classes have the same experience like physical ones
@DaveRandom I would not give up and try to access it anyway I want
 
exactly, so... is there any point in me trying to block it in the first place? ;-)
 
@RifkyNiyas Need Virtual Presence Devices
 
@DaveRandom yes there isn't
wait wait
 
you have to treat people you would want to be treated. in life in general, but especially at school/work, otherwise they will just refuse to engage, which would be the total opposite of what you want
 
and I say that as someone who was a terrible student
 
In this case the student is having interest towards the external surfing right? My primary goal is not blocking him from accessing the web surfing he likes to but to warn him on the learning he has to do and still if he has no interest would give him some restrictions to enter the class.
@StatikStasis Woah! Keeping a virtual device on every student's home would mean we are now living on mars
 
Stop doing that and look it this screen or else I will prevent you from looking at this screen!
:-)
 
What if that backfires? Instead of the student feeling guilty, the restrictions just encourage the unwanted behavior?
 
@RifkyNiyas Your task is doomed to failure, will punish some students more than others because of their learning style, will breed resentment from students, won't work anyway, and is a huge amount of work, most of which would not be written in PHP to begin with.
 
5:40 PM
@Crell :D thank you
 
@Tiffany well yah thats true
i am realizing a lot of loopholes in the solution
 
And still, there's the issue of if a student needs an external aid to assist with learning. Their intention is to pay attention in class, but there's a site that provides a learning aid that they use alongside the lecture. How will you accommodate that? (I admit this is hypothetical, but I'm reasonably confident on the possibility of occurrence)
 
now this process was one of those things meant to improve interactions towards the class
@Tiffany provide the teacher with an option to enable permission for students to access that site or any sites if he/she wishes
like a button i guess
 
Your idea is a breeding ground for malicious compliance :P
 
@MarkR Still listening to this Tomorrowland you sent me. I cannot help but wonder how many of those in the Orchestra hate it. =D
 
5:45 PM
@Tiffany Yah. I am understanding that
 
@StatikStasis It's probably the most epic thing most of them have ever done in their lives. The energy in that room looks crazy
 
@RifkyNiyas You're still approaching the wrong problem from the wrong direction. And before you get to the point of implementing that feature you're thinking of, there's about 750,000 lines of code to write first. Mostly not PHP.
 
@Crell well yes!
I'll come up with any other solutions to have interactivity in the classes
 
@MarkR Oh definitely.
 
5:53 PM
Violinist 1: Done anything interesting this year?
Violinist 2: I played at a music festival
Violinist 1: Cool
Violinist 2: ... In front of thousands of people dancing, and I was surrounded by flame cannons, and smoke machines, with fireworks going off over my head, indoors ...
Violinist 1: ....
 
@MarkR This guy... loves it, hates it, or here for the paycheck? i.imgur.com/Knmx9TA.png
 
My guess would be his in-ears don't fit well enough.
 
Ok when it comes to having the video conferencing part working, I obeserved some things. One of our teacher used a website to enter into a zoom meeting. I think it was made of wordpress and had zoom-api integrated. The quality was kinda poor and we abandoned it. another teacher came up with a different website built for him and it was made with a mern or mevn stack if I am correct. it used the same api still functions fine and the quality is better. Does the api has to do anything with language?
propably not gonna use the zoom-api since it costs some money. are there any open source similar apis to work with so it's possible to add more features
 
@MarkR LOL. It's probably that loud that he needs something more heavy duty for his monitors.
@MarkR I have a pair of dual driver Westone in ears that I use for live performance.
 
@StatikStasis Probably doesn't want to ruin his income with that obnoxiously loud music :D
 
6:02 PM
lol
@PeeHaa Obnoxious ravers...
 
They are the worst
 
If I got the chance to play with Tiesto and armin van buuren i'd jump at it... there's only the small problem is I can't play for s**t
 
@MarkR Oh me too! I would be up there jamming for sure.
 
morns
 
@RifkyNiyas A properly written web API only cares that you talk to it over HTTP, probably either with REST or GraphQL. (No idea what Zoom does.) The client language you're using, by design, doesn't matter. However, companies and projects often provide wrapper libraries in select languages that wrap up the HTTP calls behind function/method calls in that language. The availability and quality of those will vary super widely.
A video API, however, is also going to need a signaling server and various other components that communicate over UDP, not HTTP/TCP. That's an entirely different beast. Also mostly client-language independent, but some languages have tooling that is better suited to high-bandwidth UDP connections.
Video streaming is a bloody complicated branch of programming.
 
6:07 PM
@Crell noted. And as you mentioned earlier, you said you personally won't use PHP right? what you would have chosen?
 
I honestly don't grok WebRTC enough myself to say how I'd even go about architecting it from scratch. Just trying to setup a WebRTC system someone else built is hard enough. (I have tried to do so for my previous job. It's a mess.)
If I needed a persistent high-traffic process to run the server side component of something I'm building myself, that needs to maintain state, I'd probably look to Rust or Go.
 
what about node?
 
If I just need to serve stateless HTTP requests, PHP will do just fine.
 
I am thinkin of learning node js and doing this stuff. Is it possible to run a site on both PHP and node?
 
I personally dislike Node, though it's certainly capable of doing many things.
 
6:10 PM
There's absolutely no reason why a given site can't run on EVERY LANGUAGE AT THE SAME TIME. The question is: Why?
 
1) Javascript is an untyped language, which I dislike for anything at any scale.
2) Javascript's way of doing async is broken: https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-your-function/
3) The Javascript ecosystem is an absolute mess.
4) The niche that Node does well, Go does better and is faster with a less broken ecosystem.
 
@Sara That means that site can run on several languages right?
 
Really, Node's *only* advantage now that Go exists is that it's the same language client side and server side. There's nothing else that would make me want to use Node.

YMMV, IMO, etc.
 
mm ok
 
"Several" is a subset of "All", so yes.
 
6:12 PM
@RifkyNiyas How much web work have you done to date? For context...
 
@Crell Node JS has a library ecosystem probably 1000x the size of Go's
 
@Crell I did complete an e-commerce site which got abandoned
 
@MarkR Yes. Like I said, a complete mess. :-)
 
@Tiffany I think this is one of my favorite stories now
 
heres the link to that site
had some testing stuff left and don't know if it works completely
 
6:14 PM
@RifkyNiyas OK. The thing to remember is that HTTP is, by design, stateless and language agnostic. You could build your site such that every different URL is served by a different application built in a different language. That would be a terrible idea, but you can.
 
the deadline given was 2 weeks and I literally took over 8 months :) More than a just reason for the client to abandon
 
It was pretty common for a while to have PHP apps that served web pages and dumped harder work into a queue server, and then a Node.js-based non-web-facing app would churn through the queue and do out of band stuff like send emails, clear caches, and do other periodic updates. Nothing wrong with that model, although these days PHP is perfectly capable of being a queue worker so it's not as common.
 
@RifkyNiyas yikes
 
Ah, it was an enterprise project.
You can also build the entire thing in Ruby, both components. Or in Python. or in Node. Or in Rust. The browser doesn't care.
 
I'd genuinely consider Typescript for server side development nowadays. I've done a few stateful microservices in that PHP wasn't suited for
 
6:18 PM
@Crell I made it to a friend of mine (not now sadly) and in the end he got every reason to hate me
 
Different languages have different places they excel, and are a good fit for. And you'll get different opinions as to what those are. :-)
Building an ecommerce site in 2 weeks from scratch is generally known as a suicide mission. :-)
Hell, it takes that long just to get Magento to load a page.
 
I remember coming here for the first time asking for a help to complete the whole back-end coding in one day since my deadline was tomorrow
 
The main drawbacks are no native integer type and the exception system kinda sucks (they really need to add an inline instanceof check to the catch block
 
and the response I got was not to bite more than what I can chew
 
That sounds accurate.
You're getting it again. :-)
 
6:19 PM
@Crell exactly. should have listened to it :)
@Crell this project too???
 
Most serious apps in the wild take thousands of person-hours to write, if not hundreds of thousands.
Building a WebRTC system from scratch? You're looking at millions of person hours, most of which will be just reading the documentation for the specs and standards and trying to figure out WTF they mean.
 
But I got some experience working in that project actually rather than sitting there and going for another tutorial
 
The legends of people banging out useful apps in a weekend are
1) Mostly legends.
2) People who already have tens of thousands of hours experience themselves.
3) Very small and targeted apps that don't actually do all that much.
Oh sure. Getting experience is super valuable. Get as much as you can.
 
@Crell yah!
it seems like that guy in the youtube tutorial has used peer js
 
But as an example... I've been programming for 25 years, since I was younger than you are now. And I'm currently staring at a client-side Javascript app I'm trying to put together, after spending days reading documentation for the library I'm building on, and I'm mostly staring at it trying to figure out how to update a value.

Most programming is staring at your code, feeling stupid, despite having decades of experience. :-)
 
6:24 PM
@Crell and then feeling unproductive because nothing was done other than staring and thinking...
 
@Tiffany Yup.
(And getting distracted by Room 11.)
 
@Crell Only proofs of concept; they handle 80% of the work, but the remaining 20% will take 80+% of the total project time...
 
@Crell that's true
 
@RifkyNiyas Required reading for anyone who wants to go into software: barnesandnoble.com/w/…
 
I made an image finder app using tesseract js to search images in a folder through text and spent days figuring out to go through mdn docs
all i had in my head was depression
 
6:26 PM
That's fairly typical.
 
just on the last day I made a simple presentation to send it to a competition here
now it seems like its not working at all!!
 
You're also getting into tech during an age when everything is deliberately made more complicated than it needs to be, because that's trendy.
We apologize for the inconvenience.
 
@Crell Thank you so much for this
@Crell for whom?
 
@Crell I blame Oracle
 
Here's a presentation I gave recently that's a summary of some of the key points, but not all: youtu.be/XAMAGzmvUto
(Watch the video, then go read the book anyway.)
@Tiffany I blame the people who kept telling front end devs they weren't real devs so long that the front end devs decided to reinvent the last 50 years of computing in front-end Javascript, badly, just to prove the haters wrong.
 
6:31 PM
@Crell Thank you for this
Do you have any personal youtube channels?
 
Technically yes, but it's mostly just short demos of my woodworking or bladesmithing work. :-)
 
@Crell link please?
 
youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAi1rj7b0ApWScH6njlptekH-WjohZ3zs - This playlist is presentations I've given over the years, at least those that were recorded for YouTube. Lots of duplicates.
 
@Crell Thank for this again. Add a new subscriber
 
6:34 PM
@RifkyNiyas youtube.com/c/LarryGarfieldCrell/featured - My crafting stuff. Entirely different kind of tech. :-)
"This is not an appropriate venue to discuss replacing the entire web tech stack."

(Especially by replacing the whole thing with Javascript, which is the worst possible thing one could do.)
Side note: Bad documentation kills more libraries than anything else. I just want to update a bloody field and have the visualization redrawn! Why is this so complicated!
 
crafting stuff seems cool. are you more into DIY stuff?
 
I got into bladesmithing as a hobby to get something non-digital into my life. The rest sort of grew from there.
I haven't done much as recently due to the pandemic.
 
@Crell I too enjoy woodworking. See a rustic table I built a few years ago. I have other pieces but not posted online. imgur.com/a/DRrNt
 
Nice!
 
cool stuff
seems like I am doing the exact opposite coding as a hobby
 
6:47 PM
Oh I've done that, too. :-) But I needed to get away from a screen.
 
@Tiffany the story you provided was something actually inspirational to read.
it's something I can connect too
 
Right, I'm breaking for lunch, because it's lovely out and I want to go for a walk.
 
take care
The purpose of my project is never intended for Malicious Compliance
I wanted to make it more interactive than what the puplil are experiencing right now
I preferred online education better due to no cost and effort for transportation and saving some time to relax. At the mean time it has to be effective as the physical ones
ok i'll get some sleep and we'll see tomorrow
Thank you guys
 
7:26 PM
!!rfcs
Does the bot not do that anymore?
 
No, it hasn't for a while...
Bad bot
 
7:41 PM
@Trowski It does if I kick it
 
Anyone who votes on this RFC (other than the authors) with the pretence they fully understand it is lying :P
 
^ that is the worst
Voting yes without looking at it
 
Come on… fsync is pretty simple.
 
:P
 
7:49 PM
I tried to explain everything :P
Honestly, they're not terribly different from Generators other than they have a C stack too.
They also don't have that problem of generator delegation either, that turned out to be way more complicated than it appeared on the surface.
 
@MarkR /me votes. I guess I fully understand it :-)
 
Didn't you help write amp? :P that's practically an author
 
hehe
 
I at least left feedback during the process! Can I vote?
 
8:08 PM
@LeviMorrison Sure, if you vote "yes" :P
 
8:21 PM
@LeviMorrison If the observer I added ends up lacking we can always revisit it being that's an internal API. We'll just want to get it right before 8.1 ships.
 
Yeah... need to get some time scheduled for Q2 or Q3.
 
CData structs with fields of type struct can't be passed as C function argument ・ ffi ・ #80847
 
8:56 PM
@Trowski Great work! Thanks to the two of you!
 
@IluTov Thanks! Really looking forward to what may be possible.
 
9:31 PM
/me goes to finally read the entire fibers RFC, instead of having his brain explode part way through.
 
@Trowski "FiberError If the fiber has not started, is running, or has terminated." Does "is running" mean calling Fiber::resume from the fiber itself? When would the fiber otherwise be running?
@Trowski I realize this feedback is very late, but might it make sense to have something like Fiber::threw()? Otherwise you can't call Fiber::getReturn() without a try catch for when the fiber might've thrown.
 
@IluTov What method is that on?
@IluTov So maybe, that could be added in the future. However, I haven't found a need for it, as if the Fiber threw, then the last call to Fiber::start(), Fiber::resume(), or Fiber::throw() should have thrown and you'd know not to call Fiber::getReturn().
 
@Trowski Ok, when would you use getReturn anyway? It seems a bit arbitrary since there's no way to get the parameter of any of the suspend calls.
 
Usually you're going to call Fiber::getReturn() when one of those functions returns null instead of an expected value.
@IluTov The parameter to suspend is returned from Fiber::start(), Fiber::resume(), or Fiber::throw(), analogous to Generator.
 
@Trowski Oh, the return value of the fiber isn't returned by those methods, I missed that.
 
9:41 PM
Fiber::getReturn() is identical in behavior to Generator::getReturn(), which also does not have a didThrow() or similar method.
@IluTov Again, analogous to Generator::send() and Generator::throw().
 
@Trowski Ok, that makes sense. I barely use generators so I'm not super familiar with the API.
 
Most people don't use those methods :D
@IluTov To answer that question, yes, if you were to call resume or throw from within the fiber itself.
Or from within a fiber running within that fiber. Fibers create a stack, where a fiber may have 1 or more fibers within it, though it's always a stack, never a tree.
Fibers farther down on the stack are still running.
You can push any suspended (or new) fiber onto the stack and suspending pops off the stack.
 
I'm going to have to get very familiar with fibers at some point, so I can include them in the 2nd edition of my FP book, I think...
 
Perhaps, though I argue most PHP developers will never touch the API.
Most will use some framework that provides the event loop, etc.
 
Yes, but building pipelines is something both fibers and FP seem well suited to. And if you're doing stuff with fibers you need to be mindful of shared mutable state, which FP keeps you from having.
So they at least complement each other.
 
10:03 PM
Yes, that's a good point.
 
My ideal would be some syntactic way to pipe functions together in a sort of lazy, async pipeline with input at one end and output at the other. You can do that now but the syntax for it is quite clunky, IMO.
@Trowski This is much improved from the previous versions I reviewed! My main remaining nit, which it's probably too late to fix (my fault), is Fiber::this() seems like a very poorly chosen method name. Why not Fiber::active() or something like that? this() carries a whole bunch of other meaning that is not relevant here.
 
10:22 PM
@Crell It's retrieving the instance to the current context, so effectively giving you the $this of the fiber that's running, that's why Fiber::this() felt appropriate.
We could change that with a subsequent vote, but I'd hate to have you vote no just because of that :-P
active() or getActive() would also be fine, I don't much care what it's called.
 
Follow-up vote or no one objecting if you say you'll change it later or whatever the accepted procedure is would be fine by me. But "this" means "the object I'm currently in", which if you pass an anon function to new Fiber() would mean the object that represents the anon function, not the Fiber that's wrapping it. The more I think about it, the less I like this() as a name. :-/
The rest of the API seems pretty good at this point.
It's basically the fiber version of getmypid(), if I understand it correctly.
 
@Crell Yes, but it's Fiber::this(), not just this().
Yes, similar to getmypid()
 
@Trowski Sure, but the word "this" still puts one into a "$this" mindset, even though that's inaccurate. Almost any other method name would avoid that confusion.
(Though I'm sure there are other names we could come up with that would suck if we really tried. :-) )
 
I've been trying to think of another name that removes ambiguity. Fiber::getRunningFiber() seems the most concise.
 
active() or current() would suit me fine, frankly. current() may get confused with iterators, I suppose, but active() seems safe.
 
10:37 PM
I was avoiding current for just that reason.
Active isn't a word that the API uses.
 
running()?
 
Yeah… though more than one fiber is considered running at once (those farther down the stack). You could say the top fiber is the active fiber.
Just trying to justify active(), since that's a pretty good name.
 
"active" seems like the most natural to me, as only one is "actively" executing opcodes at any given time.
I'll leave a note on the list for posterity.
 
Sure. You can note that I'll ask if anyone objects if it's merged.
 
Oh, I just meant my thoughts on the matter. I have no idea what the process is to rename the method post-vote-start, or if that's even a thing. I don't want to rock that boat too much.
 
10:54 PM
It's come up before, usually people don't care too much.
Unless it's a syntax. Then we'll have to hold several votes.
 
Mail sent, and Yes vote cast.
@cmb So, fill me in here. What exactly should a supposed &language.predefined.stringable.tostring; do? I left it in mostly by accident. I have no such file locally. It would really just repeat the existing toString information so I'm not sure if it's worth doing. I defer to you on the best way to proceed here.
(Re Stringable)
 
cmb
@Crell Sorry, no idea. I've just noticed that the file is missing, because configure failed after I actually added stringable.xml to the manual. I hoped you had just forgot to push. :)
Maybe duplicate the info from the OOP section, or just link (not sure about the direction, though)
Or just don't document that method at all (can still be done at a later time)
 
So, leave out the entity, let the class refer to toString as it does now, and move on with life?
 
cmb
yolo :)
 
Should we then still comment out the second xinclude?
 
cmb
11:07 PM
yes, if we don't have documented methods, that xinclude will show an error message (stupid libxml2 behavior, and bad handling from PhD)
 
Gotcha.
Then I'll remove the constructor block entirely, and leave the method block commented out with a note.
 
cmb
makes sense
 
Pushed
 
11:40 PM
@cmb Finally fixed the syntax issues. Apparently you have to use classname, not interfacename, in the formal structure parts of the page. Because Reasons(tm).
Anything else I can do on docs to help in the next half hour or so? :-) I hate being idle...
 

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