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09:41
Synced starred message data. Took 116282 ms.
10:06
hmpf, my son is now until Friday next week under quarantine...
10:39
This was the most starred message last year on this day:
Hmm. Actually, nothing interesting was said on this day last year.
 
3 hours later…
13:28
Ribbit
Tim
Tim
\o
 
2 hours later…
15:26
heyo
15:47
Sometimes I like to brag, sometimes I'm soft spoken
When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Tim
Tim
I sense an attempt at rhyming
are you accusing the beastie boys at attempting to rhyme
o.o
Tim
Tim
are you insinuating they failed?
nuh uh
hows valheim?
Tim
Tim
building a forward base on mountain cliffs while waiting for buddies to catch up
ready for 4th boss
15:59
nice :D
I started playing Baldur's Gate 1
Tim
Tim
why
for something to play, it's pretty sick
gunna beat the first couple of them before BG3 comes out of early access
Tim
Tim
how long you reckon that will be
for EA to end
hmmmm probably 2022
Tim
Tim
december 31, 2022 :cry:
16:07
hahaha
probably T_T
Tim
Tim
I just told my girlfiend about BG3 today, since she loved divinity, and also loves dnd
oh nice what a coinkidink
she'd probaby like the original baldurs gate games as well
although they aren't turn-based
I think they said they were planning to be in early access for a year, but I think it took divinity 2 years so yeah lol that's actually probably not far from the truth with your dec 31 2022
Tim
Tim
how are the graphics doe? She doens't like most games that don't have state of the art graphics
I am super conflicted about early access games now. Some are good and some are absolute dogshit. And some like phasmophobia are good, but already dead before they get out of early access
I mean people played it for months and had their fun but have moved on already. New maps or whatever are not gonna bring anyone back
mmmm true, the graphics are like ... ashen empires lol
upscaled runescape basically
yeah that's true, I'm pretty skeptical about early access as well.. some games just get early acces success and then never leave early access like Ark
or maybe it did but it took like 5 years
and then companies start focusing on new content instead of finishing the existing game because people are bored from playing the early access too much
I basically avoid EA unless it's like valheim where all the reviews are like "it's a full game despite being in early access"
16:23
why can't garbage collection be done compile time?
is it that much more complicated than rust's ownership checking
what is there to collect at compile time?
just count the references that could possibly exist and when it's none garbage collect
so your application is not even running yet and you want to free memory?
yeah im confused
when you compile something you include instructions to allocate and free memory
Tim
Tim
16:35
like when building a house the contractor should know how much trash the future owners will generate, so that in case it is 'none', the garbage truck can skip this house?
huh?
Tim
Tim
exactly
@JBis garbage collection exists so that this is not required
manually allocating/freeing memory is not fun
    func foo(int x){ // x reference count = 2
      return x + 5;
    } // x reference count = 1

    func main(){
       int x = 5;  // allocate, x reference count = 1
       int y = foo(x); // allocate, y reference count = 1
    } // x and y reference count = 0, free memory
Tim
Tim
now do it with a collection that has an unknown size
wdym? like a vector?
Tim
Tim
16:41
literally anything of which the size cannot be determined at compile time
its the same thing just on the heap
Tim
Tim
which is unknown at compile time
you can allocate dynamic memory and free dynamic memory
sounds like you're going to need to create a new compiler jbis
better get started on that
it's like creating a trigger in your database to delete any new records when the total number of records reach 1B, and expecting this trigger to run the moment you create it
Tim
Tim
16:48
if you allocate dynamic memory it is not dynamic
@Tim yes
you just allocate a known pointer size on the stack to the unkown size on the heap iirc
@ballBreaker i'd rather shoot myself
Tim
Tim
> unknown size
i just want someone else to do it so i can benefit from their work
promote this guy to management
:)
Tim
Tim
16:51
again please, explain how to determine the size of something of unknown size, at compile time
you don't need to, as you don't need to now
Tim
Tim
your proposal above depends on it
why?
Tim
Tim
?
some psuedocode:
func main(){
   Vector<int> x = [];
   int x = GetInput(); // user input from command line aka not known at compile time
   for(int i = 0; i < x; i++){
      x.push(i);
   }
}
that works, you are dynamically allocating memory
Tim
Tim
16:58
33 mins ago, by JBis
just count the references that could possibly exist and when it's none garbage collect
so how does the compiler do this
i is the only thing I want to know about
oh in that case:
for(int i = 0; i < x; i++){ // i allocation for size int, reference = 1;
      x.push(i);
 } // i reference = 0; free i
Tim
Tim
I'm still not really sure what it was, but I think it's safe to say I missed your point completely
yeah maybe im not explaining well
i just feel like reference counting (the basis for many gc systems) could be done at compile time
@JBis it cant
bro, how can you do that when you don't know what to expect?
your web app could serve 10 requests and it could serve 1M, no one knows
17:12
@IvanMilisavljevic why not?
@Mehdi huh?
Tim
Tim
I think what I was getting at is that here // i allocation for size int, reference = 1; your reference is not 1, it is unknown
as others pointed out, too many variables and too complex to calculate
@Tim how is reference unknown?
also why would you do that?
@IvanMilisavljevic what do you mean?
17:13
it's like if I go grocery shopping and you're trying to figure out which size of bag I'll need, and I come in and say I'm only getting one thing, but then I show up at checkout with 17 phallic cucumbers ready for my big night. Your bag size is going to be off
@IvanMilisavljevic gc is very expensive
@JBis GC is, counting references isnt
@IvanMilisavljevic yes
Tim
Tim
@JBis compiler doesn't know what number the user will put in
@Tim im not sure you are understanding what a reference is here
17:15
the answer to how many cucumbers I can fit in my butt is 17
6
if we are talking about for loops, that can be easily explained with time complexity
Tim
Tim
yeah probably, what I meant earlier when I said I missed your point
for the case you provided it with be O(x) and x is unknown at compile time
that has nothing to do with reference counting tho
what do you mean by a reference?
i in your case?
17:18
reference counting is counting the number of things that depend on a certain piece of memory
if that reaches zero than you don't need to store the memory any more
thats not right
reference counting counts the number of objects that depend on another object
bad example, let me redo
this conversation needs to be garbage collected
@MihaiFumarel and @CatalinGhita welcome, please start by reading the rules of the room room-15.github.io
17:21
Array<int> x = [5];
Array<int> *y = &x;
Array<int> *z = &y;
at that point the memory allocation of [5] has 3 reference counts: x, y, z
ok right, so whats your question again?
at compile time, why can't we do reference counting and therefor gc
when happens when a user taps a button or some input is processed?
because if you do gc at compile time your *y and *z would be null
gc is meant to clean up the objects when they are not needed anymore
the compiler would see that y and z depend on x
17:25
and than what
@IvanMilisavljevic and no free memory allocated for x until all references are gone
@DaveS ?
what is free memory in this case?
references are destroyed at runtime
you're asking why the compiler doesn't know in advance what memory to allocate
and the answer is because the program isn't running it's just compiling
> advance what memory to allocate
during execution is when it allocates and deallocates memory
17:27
frankly JBis, I think it's easier to read a bit more the topic to get a good visual representation of what's happening
there is a valid question down there, but im not getting it
read about gc and maybe JIT and AOT
no, i'm asking why the compiler doesn't know when to free memory
because the compiler has nothing to do with runtime execution memory management
the compiler job is long done JBis
because there is no memory allocation in compile time
17:28
yeah my examples aren't explaining it well
memory is allocated/deallocated at runtime
@DaveS it does
compiler only worries about the STACK, you're asking about the HEAP
the compiler creates the instructions to allocate and free memory on both the stack and the heap
yes but not in its own memory space
17:29
@IvanMilisavljevic ?
so if you build your app on your personal pc
ok JBis, think about it this way. If you create a "Photo Item" everytime you press a button
and deploy it to a web server
how does the compiler know you pressed the button?
how does that make any sense that the compiler would know that?
your web server is not going to have same memory addresses like your personal pc
17:30
@DaveS im not sure what you mean here
the memory for the photo item is allocated when you press the button
18 mins ago, by Mehdi
your web app could serve 10 requests and it could serve 1M, no one knows
@IvanMilisavljevic well it's virtual memory addresses, the OS is responsible for mapping virtual to physical
but the compiler ran 100 days ago
Tim
Tim
I tried this already dave
17:31
yeah see my cucumber in the butt example
@DaveS yes, ok?
so does your compiler know the future?
it doesn't need to
...
explain to me how a compiler predicts user input in the future
when you press the button code is called that says allocate memory to store this picture. The picture has a dynamic size. So you get the size of the picture and allocate that much memory.
17:33
how does the compiler know when the button is pressed
none of that has anything to do with the gc at compile time
GC has nothing to do with compile time
@DaveS it doesn't, my guess is there is an I/O handler that you register with the OS
right so if the compiler doesn't know when a button is pressed why would it allocate dynamic memory in response to a button pressed in the future
func onButtonPress(picture){ // whatever }

Button.onPress(onButtonPress);
the compiler simply compiles //whatever
17:36
If this isn't making sense to you then you need to look back at garbage collection fundamentals
this isn't
i don't see how it has anything to do with gc
that assumes he looked at them in the first place
it has to do dynamically allocating memory
alright i guess ill read more about gc
2h too late but good
Tim
Tim
what if jbis was taken by china and replaced with a fake, just like ahmad and CF and some others
17:43
oh, i think i figured out why you aren't understanding my question maybe
im not saying the actual process of garbage collection, im saying inserting instructions to free memory at compile time instead of packing a garbage collection system in the binary
java compiler already does that though, does it not?
other than the second point
you're saying to replace GC with just a static code analysis version of a GC?
@ballBreaker Yes ^
11 mins ago, by Dave S
how does the compiler know when the button is pressed
I think that's probably only possible in some languages
> packing a garbage collection system in the binary
?
17:46
being able to free depends on the reference count being zero, knowing exactly how many references there are and when to free isn't something you can solve in static code analysis
o/ Carl
@Mehdi If i am not mistaken, languages that have a gc system, when compiled, include the garbage collection system in the binary. That is very expensive. Java has a run time and isn't native so that is a bad example.
Brutal night of Valheim. Daughter and I went exploring to find somewhere near the swamp to build a base and instead got attacked by a sea serpent and lost all our gear and our boat.
ouch Carl, I think your gear isn't lost though
17:48
lmao
if you sail back you should be able to get it
well, we tried going back - built another boat and tried to get there and then died in the swamps on the way
anything inside the boat storage floats when it's detroyed
now we have no brass
and your tombstones float too, so you should be ok
also RIP lol
17:49
ouch
I just left the swamp last night, on to the next biome
Tim
Tim
carl man I have been through exactly that at least 20 times because I suck at staying alive. I have built 5 of each type of boats and lost them all multiple times. But yeah your stuff stays afloat, but if you die again the grave marker does not appear on the minimap anymore. You could try building a portal on a nearby island, build a raft there and try to sail to your graves. If it fails you're just a portal away to try again
the remaining mining sites for us are so far away that I think it makes more sense to start a new world
try to build a raft as tim said
Tim
Tim
maybe one of us can hop over with a boat to help retrieve your items?
I can send bB he isn't working anyway
17:52
hahaha
Tim
Tim
but yeah I have like 100 hours in this game and my highest skill isn't even 30 because I died so often
lol T_T
my friend was the same
Tim
Tim
but I fucking love it
punish me harder, game, uwu
yeah it's a fun game
yea what is life without death
carl im playing baldurs gate 1, figured you might appreciate
mostly just because ur old
Tim
Tim
17:54
one time I lost all my stuff because I died and the grave bugged out and didn't appear. Then I just opened the console to replace my stuff because hell no I'm gathering all that stuff again
and then you had to type in "imacheater" and then stopped?
Tim
Tim
if stopped means I cheated my gear back, closed console, continued game
yeah exactly, nice
I'm proud of you
Tim
Tim
I am very aware that cheating sucks all of the fun out of the game so I only cheated stuff I knew for sure that I had
but yeah losing everything also makes you want to take the aettestup so
@JBis your idea is manual reference counting?
17:58
@DaveS "manual"? i mean compile time reference counting
looks like the developer is counting those not the compiler
Tim
Tim
Rc:: looks like manual, yes
nvm im wrong
2
y'all just like when im wrong
it's more satisfying when you've defended your position for at least 2 hours
@Tim is that the thing where the old people jump to their death
Tim
Tim
18:00
yep
!attestup
bot is not online I think
trueee
oh well
anyone how are y'all doing
good, just pwned this n00b who thought compile time reference counting was a thing
what an idiot
18:10
@Tim yeah usually on games I'll look up mechanics/item lists/etc but on this one I was very good at not doing any of that stuff or cheting, but totally understand your situation. Would have probably done the same
if I ever get to a 'cheat or quit' point in a game I'll always cheat
yeah cheating to restore game errors especially is whatever
Tim
Tim
Exactly that
I've spent at least 20 hours just running or sailing back to my Graves, I can enjoy it
So I mean if I die and it's my mistake I am happy to suck it up
yeah exactly, like if you've already done that once or twice then it's understandable
we almost lost everything at one point all 5 of us except I managed to live with 1 HP to get a portal down lol , I have a feeling at least 2 of my friends would have threatened to quit
if I didn't survive
I feel like as long as it's the most enjoyable way for you to play personally then it doesn't really matter what other people think anyway
assuming ur not ruining it for other people
are there mods for that game?
not yet that i know of
18:17
sounds like a good game to mod
yeah it would be, and it's in unity as well
there are some mods but it's not officially supported
Unity!
posted on March 01, 2021 by Android Developers

Posted by Eric Bahna, Product Manager In January, we enabled the Google Play Store to accept open testing submissions of navigation, parking, and charging apps. It’s great to see many of you developing Android Auto apps and sending us feedback through the issue tracker. Thank you for helping us improve the platform so we deliver better in-car experiences together! Drivers have been sendi

makes sense dave
18:26
alright its not possible
foo(refs: &Vec<X>, shared_ref: X) {
    for _i in 0..todays_lottery_number() { refs.push(shared_ref.clone(); }
    for _i in 0..todays_lottery_number() { refs.pop() }
}
there's no way for a compiler to know the count there
Are you trying to win the lottery with a kotlin function?
of course it's not possible, duh
Tim
Tim
18:42
@ballBreaker lmao pussies
haha yeah we didn't know you could just cheat your stuff back though, and in their defense it was around 90H in, so the burnout was strong with them
but also I agree
Tim
Tim
but what do you mean you would have lost the items?
just sail back
we woulda been fine they were just being babies
@ballBreaker did you ever watch the scary movies?
Tim
Tim
I have boats in multiple locations throughout the map just for cases like that
18:46
yeah exactly, just gotta prepare for that stuff
@JBis the first three and then stopped watching em
lol yeah
Tim
Tim
The first one was the best anyway
Popcorn scene and the chase following it. Mmm
Maybe that was the second. I actually don't remember
got old after a while but yeah first couple were funny
What are you all playing now?
yeah the first and second were great when they came out
@RaymondArteaga baldurs gate enhanced edition
18:55
Is it free?
if you illegally obtain it, yeah!
I've been playing valorant lately which is free
baldurs or valorant 🤔 what a dilema
Who the heck come up with those weird words to name games?
quite the dilema :c
they should name every game 'Raymond'
18:59
It would definitely be a very enjoyable Game, that's for sure.
every game is just a sequel of Raymond
I wish today was over
how is it only 2pm
its been at least 1 day today
Play me, the day will go away in a blink of an eye
@ballBreaker I'm actually running a DnD campaign for my daughters based on Baldur's Gate 2
That's awesome!
how old is she?
19:03
11 and 10
You have her playing DnD and valheim, much respect
those seem like good ages for that kind of thing with your kids
old enough to be smart enough to understand all the stuff, but young enough to still want to spend time with you
lol
or maybe younger is good for that too, not sure when kids become smart enough for dnd
they are not good at min-maxing I will tell you that
I myself never became smart
haha fair
that wasn't even a concept in my mind until later
when did you introduce her/them into DnD?
the older one wanted the DnD player's handbook about the summer of 2019
I started the campaign that fall
or winter
so they've been playing for over a year now
19:39
oh nice!! thats awesome
 
1 hour later…
20:41
So that was a nice day, the company seemed great
oh nice man! how many employees?
Werber voeten has a few dozen, their IT section has 3 (excluding me)
hahah true
so very small team
how were the people? that's probably the most or second most important thing
and also how was your boss
But as soon as I sat down in the office space I didn't feel that great anymore. I despise offices even more than I realized
I am afraid I don't belong in this world but maybe I feel better tomorrow
yeah I don't think anyone really feels that great sitting at a desk at first
I definitely didn't
I still struggle with that a bit, working inside all day.. but I just used to take regular smoke breaks to get outside lol
20:53
cya o/
"creating cancer makes office life a lot more durable" - BB
At least cancer ends office time sooner
Doctor: Give your dad greetings from me
Kid: My dad is dead
Doctor: I know
😂
21:14
haha
21:36
But I am now in a position that I don't know what to do
Unsure if whatever I seek in work even exists. I want to be an all rounder that perhaps includes a sales/support part besides programming
No matter the workload, just don't "lock me up"

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