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12:10 AM
@Turing85 That is still not a valid close reason. There's already been discussion about it.
It's not our call to judge the user that posts. Or judge how a post came about.
 
@Scratte So you say... a close reason that is listed on the on-topic page is not a valid close reason?
 
@Turing85 It's a guideline. One moderator added it and now some people are closing posts because they assume the poster isn't sweating enough.. How does it actually make the site better to shut down posts just because you don't like that they didn't do enough?
You can't know if it's an exercise they do that isn't homework, can you? If you really mean to close all homework posts, you should be certain that it actually really is homework, no?
 
@Scratte That is an official on topic page. What else am I suppose to use as reference? And OP clearly confirmed that it isn't homework, but Hackerranks. But again, as Ii said in the comment section, it has the same intent: skill improvement. How is this going to happen if we solve the problem for them?
 
@Turing85 It's not our call either way. We're not an educational system. We don't check that people are learning when they should be learning. This is just a huge collection of Questions and Answers. How the Questions came about is irrelevant.
 
@Turing85 Quick question, could you share an example of the custom close reason you used that got denied?
 
12:19 AM
@Scratte Then the on-topic page is inconsistent. Either deny all questions in that way or none. Everything else is is arbitrary.
@cigien Would have to dig really deep to find them (if they are even recorded). I know that I flagged one or two questions as "homework" (don't know if I included "with no best-effort", probably not)
 
@Turing85 The history is a bit of a disappointment on that page. One single moderator changed it.. then it was removed, since another one argued that it's inconsistent with the goal of the site. Then yet another moderator added it back in.
 
@Turing85 No worries. If you do find an example, I'd love to see it. I'd also like to know the reason the flag was denied if you find the flag.
 
@Scratte I am in the executive and judicative b ranch, not in the legislative one =)
 
I feel it's being abused to shut down HowTo Questions, and it's not helping anyone. Having a failed attempt is not helping the author, not helping anyone answering and certainly not helping anyone trying to find Answers. Only curators want this.. and that makes it just wrong.
 
@cigien But not today, its 1:30 am over here, will be going to bed soon
 
12:24 AM
@Turing85 Right. So you're using it, because it's there.. not because there's any good reason to use it.
 
@Turing85 Of course :) There's never a rush. Sweet dreams.
 
@Scratte Again: official documentation. What else am I suppose to use? If I have to actively follow meta, then okay, I will stop dropping close votes right here & now.
 
@Turing85 The page specifically says "homework". So unless the post has "homework" on it, then you can't by that rule use it, if that's where you're headed.
 
General question, is "Custom (Request for homework help, No effort shown)" a valid cv-pls request reason?
 
@cigien In my opinion, yes.
 
12:27 AM
Well.. I'd say: NO.
The entire homework branch is just a huge failure of trying to apply rules to a subset of specific users.
It's being applied to everything and anything that looks like homework, feels like homework or something that maybe could be homework. And even if it is homework, it still shouldn't be closed just for that.
No attempt is generally not a close reason.
 
@Scratte If you drop that branch, what reason would you use to close a question that is a homework-dump?
 
@Turing85 If it's a list of things, then it's not focused. Usually starts with "Write a class that .... write a procedure that..." That is unfocused.
It it's clear, focused and answerable. Not a resource request and about programming. Then it's a valid Question. Effort is irrelevant.
 
@Scratte Okay. What would you do if there is a question that just says "Given this partial implementation, implement this method such that (specification)"
 
@Makyen, or any RO, I'd like clarification on request reasons for a cv-pls. If a question is asking for help with a homework problem, and doesn't show any effort at solving it, is "Custom (Request for homework help, No effort shown)" a valid request reason under the room's current guidelines? I can share a concrete example if that would help.
 
@Turing85 Depends on the actual Question. Can it easily be turned into a HowTo Question? It is a major task?
 
12:34 AM
Question: do we have a tool to crawl through a user's (in this case: mine) "all actions" and filter them?
Clarification: filter them on certain phrases
 
@Turing85 There are subtabs.. There's no search feature unless you count SEDE.
 
@Turing85 I'm not sure what you mean by filtering "actions" based on certain phrases, but you can filter your own comments based on phrases in them I think.
 
@Scratte can you link the tool?
@cigien how?
 
@cigien That's going to depend. No effort isn't a close reason. They do have to have tried, but there is no minimum amount of work required.
 
@Makyen That seems contradictory. If there's no minimum amount of work required, when how much do they need to have tried? I mean no minimum reads to me as: None.
 
12:38 AM
@Scratte Enough to qualify as a good faith attempt.
 
@Makyen That's even worse. That mean "No minimum", but anyone can set the bar for whatever they think is enough to be good faith. To me that read like: Do it yourself. Your post is now closed.
 
@Scratte ~~Does the site have a maxage for entries? Oldest entry I can find is from 2017~~ scratch that. I did a stupid.
 
@Turing85 I don't know a lot about SEDE other than I use it to find stuff sometimes. Like comments or badge progress. Use triple dash :) ---remove--- becomes remove
 
@Scratte It was a compromise that was established in 2008.
 
@Makyen That post is not being used as it's written in any way whatsoever. "Don't downvote a homework question that follows the guidelines and was asked in good faith." for one isn't being applied at all.
"Don't downvote others who answer homework questions in good faith, even if they break these guidelines." is another.
The entire post seems to be not a compromise in any way, but washing one's hands of the consequences of the post itself.
 
@Turing85 Add a . to the message so it can stay. Then it becomes a link, not a one-box
 
@Scratte It has evolved a bit over time. Complaining here doesn't do all that much good, but I understand your concerns.
 
@Turing85 I take it you raised a custom flag to close these questions, and the flags were denied? Do you mind sharing the text of your flags, as well as the reason they were denied?
 
@Turing85 Please remember our rules against oneboxes.
 
@Makyen I'm not just concerned. I'm pretty tired of the closing of on-topic posts by the "homework" reason. It's counter to the goal and it's focusing on users and on their motivation for contributing. It's not right.
 
12:49 AM
@cigien If the screenshots are not enough, I can copy-paste you the text. Here or in a private conversation?
 
@Turing85 What it was hoped that you would take away from these declined flags was that custom moderator flags were not to be used for custom close reasons. Unfortunately, the decline text doesn't do a good job of explaining that.
@Scratte You're not going to like this, but: create a post on Meta.
 
@Makyen That's possible 😉 I was young and needed the money. Maybe I was not familiar with the interface back then and/or it was different.
 
@Makyen I'm not the right person to do that. It's too important to let some slow, half-intelligent person with no skills for words nor persuading people create that meta post.
 
Anyway... I am going to stop flagging homework-questions for the time being. Please notify me when a consensus has been reached wrt. this topic.
 
^ that.. I can't even convince one single individual that it's counter to the goal to judge users. Or that it's a bad idea to remove content just because the user that posted it didn't do enough homework.
 
12:58 AM
I have a question, why do we close questions that need more focus?
 
That is done because a post that is unfocused either requires a very very very long Answer, or it's not narrow on it's topic. If it's not narrow in it's topic, you can't really search it easily.
 
... or it's so blurry that only rene can understand it?
 
@Scratte Neither the one nor the other. "This question currently includes multiple questions in one. It should focus on one problem only."
 
But then narrow questions arent easily searchable either... so we should close everything?
 
Yes! Close everything!
 
1:01 AM
@10Rep Where does it say that questions should be searchable?
 
@Turing85 That's just silly. Yes, if someone asks too many different questions, then how do you find the Answers to a one of them? But.. asking "How do make a website like facebook" also need focus.
 
@Scratte That's not RAW.
 
@10Rep They are. "How do I look an array in JavaScript?" is searchable.
@Turing85 What does RAW mean? Other than uncooked? I had raw carrots in my salad.
 
@Scratte Rules As Written
 
Unwritten rules are the best, by far.
 
1:03 AM
@Turing85 Wait.. are you saying you only use not focused if the post has multiple questions in it?
 
^ That's what the banner says, nowadays.
... but it's not what the Close Reason says, IIRC.
 
I know what it says. There's a meta that discusses this in the comment section.. and another one that has it as it's topic, if I remember correctly. Even come community managers think that what is written is misplaces and should be rephrased.
Basically if all you need to do to make a homework Question into a HowTo Question is the remove the work "homework" then there's NO reason to close it.
 
@Scratte I try to, yes. If no topic matches exactly, I try to infer the type that "matches closest" (which often results in me choosing "unfocused" as a close-reason and adding a clarifying comment in the question, as happened earlier today)
To sum up my two cents of the whole close-voting:
I get it that the stackexchange network, and stackoverflow in particular, has a vision of what their site should and should not allow, that is perfectly fine. I am also fine with community moderation, BUT SO should:

- either postulate clear, unambiguous guidelines for moderation, editable by a select few individuals directly associated with SO
- or forego community moderation and moderate it themselves.

Otherwise these problems will keep popping up.
 
1:20 AM
@Turing85 I agree with that. But since that's not going to happen, then what? We all moderate the way we each interpret the rules doing it largely inconsistently?
 
@Scratte "Otherwise these problems will keep popping up." - Pretty much, yes. We are all individuals (except for, maybe, @HovercraftFullOfEels), thus we have our own perspective.
 
So.. what you're saying is as long as there's no unambiguous guidelines, then there's no point in talking about it. We can just each vote the way we feel like?
 
We can discuss. But

- Not everyone voting is reachable (i.e. in this chat)
- Even if we discuss, we can agree to disagree

We can make our own "extended guidelines", for sure. This would - at least for the people present in this chat - bring consisitency. But then you still have the people who are not in this chat and people who disagree and maybe leave the chat for good, i.e. becoming unreachable. The only way for consistency is to have clear rules. And if SO does not see a problem in how moderation is handled, it will not change.
 
If reputation would allow me, I could basically go and close vote every post I find to be fine and re-open vote every post I find to be horrible.. and just say: Well, the rules are not unambiguous.
 
@Scratte ask @Makyen what would happen then =)
 
1:29 AM
@Turing85 Nothing. Makyen just said that a post needs "enough to qualify as a good faith attempt.". I can just argue that I didn't find their attempt to be enough and I suspect it's homework. And that can be applied to every single post on the entire site.
 
@Scratte you still have community moderators with administrative rights. What is your solution to the problem then?
 
I can also argue that I find every single horrible post to be clear to me.
@Turing85 About homework or the broader re-aligning users to a common goal?
 
@Scratte About the broader re-alignment.
 
@Turing85 That's over my level of intelligence, I'm afraid. For that one needs a leader. A real one, not just a stamped one.
 
@Scratte I didn't want to stamp you =) just wanted to hear your thoughts on the matter
 
1:34 AM
@Turing85 That's not what I meant by "a stamped one". I mean not just one that has a fancy title. One that actually has the ability to lead people.
 
"Power" and "ability" are often confused. One does not imply the other.
 
Re-aligning people has been done many times, it seems.. though not really, as the same issues keep creeping up again and again. Some of those issue are a result of what seems to be community consensus on effort and homework, but I do not think there is a consensus on it in the way it's being portrayed.
 
@AdrianMole the issue being discussed is actually about politics :)
 
Indeed.
Kim Jong-un has power. Barack Obama has ability. For example.
 
Two posts are already being referenced on those two topics. It's always the same two posts. It's never all the other many posts that is opposite to the interpreted views of the two posts.
 
1:40 AM
@Scratte care to share?
 
@AdrianMole And even then both are subdivided.
 
Even then.
 
You can use ability to obtain power, but not all abilities will help you. :D
 
@AdrianMole Kim could have had a career in music, look at him go :)
 
@Turing85 One is How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users? which never actually says that "No effort" posts must be closed. The other is How do I ask and answer homework questions? which is getting applied to ..well.. everything under the sun.
 
1:44 AM
Huh - That YouTube clip was preceded by an advert from ... Stack Overflow! xD
 
@AdrianMole Seriously? What was in the advertisement? "Join Stack Overflow, ask Questions, get them closed!"? :)
 
@AdrianMole please tell me you saved the URL...
 
I skipped, sorry. (Just saw the logo.)
 
I can safely flag this as NAA right? stackoverflow.com/a/65444043/11573842
Looks like a thank you answer
 
@Yatin If they elaborate on it, it's an Answer though.
 
1:48 AM
Yea.. but not in its current state
 
Self answer, quoting a comment ... dodgy ground for an NAA flag.
 
Also can you look at this: stackoverflow.com/a/65443990/11573842
 
@Yatin I left a comment, it's an answer for all dues and effects.
 
Ok
 
Can someone enlighten me as to what "Strawberries" means? :)
 
2:00 AM
@Scratte A little red nut, that most people confuse for a berry. </uselessKnowledge> Context?
 
@Turing85 It's been referenced a lot in here, and I don't understand the meaning. Really? a strawberry is a nut? It's not very nutty or crunchy and it doesn't seem to keep for very long. I don't expect squirrels to stash then away for winter..
 
I have only seen @AdrianMole use it
 
@Scratte Most people confuse tomatoes for vegetables as well, but they are actually fruits. It comes all down to the definition. As to the strawberries here in chat: your example was the first instance I have seen of this phrase.
 
Do regexes work when searching for messages in chat?
 
@Scratte In my case, it's not so much the strawberries, but rather what they're generally imbibed with. (Fizz.)
 
user12867493
2:07 AM
@cigien Nope.
 
@Xnero Ah, I feared as much. Thank you.
 
@AdrianMole what is Fizz. oO?
 
user12867493
@cigien You're welcome. RegEx search doesn't really work anywhere on the network which is a shame and it would be very useful.
 
@Xnero Yeah, it would be nice.
 
Does this answer signify no repo? stackoverflow.com/a/65444627/11573842
 
2:11 AM
@Turing85 I tend to think of tomatoes as a vegetable, because I don't put it in a fruit salad, but I'd put them in a vegetable soup. I know the definition says it's a fruit, but the definition doesn't apply to the usage. I guess that goes for strawberries as well. I think there are "nuts" that aren't technically nuts too :)
 
^^ "My machine has been confirmed."
 
@AdrianMole "imbibed: verb To receive and absorb into the mind." :) You take them in via osmosis?
 
... into the mind
 
@Turing85 I expect some alcoholic fuzzy drink, like Champaign.
 
@Scratte aaa strawberries, catabolized, Nadolig Llawen, flipside...I didn't understand but ok, If @AdrianMole says so...
 
2:17 AM
@bad_coder It does require someone with a degree in linguistics to sort that one out :D
 
@Yatin Your hats are confusing me.. Before I thought you were Martijn Pieters. Now every time you say something in chat, I think you're Cody Gray :D
@Yatin Remove "catabolized" and see if the result is any different ;)
 
2:39 AM
Question: Are general docker questions (e.g. How do I install firefox-esr on node:14-alpine docker container?) off topic since they are not programminig-related? More general: are docker, minikube, minishift, ... programming tools?
 
@Turing85 for the latter see e.g. this question for an example
 
2:58 AM
@Turing85 okay scratch the first one. It seems to be programming-related since it is a node container. The question about general docker-, mini[kube|shift], ... questions is still relevant though...
 
@Turing85 That problem isn't even related to docker, it's about alpinelinux boneheaded package manager
The suggested duplicate got that right.
If you remove docker from the equation, the same problem would be seen.
 
@Braiam The cause is not related to docker, true. But at least it is reported through a programming tool, thus I give it the benefit of a doubt. I can see why someone would make that connection.
 
@Turing85 That would be retarded.
When building a MRE you remove unrelated piece of code. You should do the same here.
 
@Braiam sooo... tl;dr: close as off topic since it is about general computing software?
 
Yep. It's the same as apt-get installation problems. They are all general software problems.
The only exception is if the package manager is uniquely used in software development.... which are rare but not unheard and are usually linked to a IDE anyways, so the topic can be pulled from there.
 
3:21 AM
The whole homework thing is quite tricky to solve, and we've been going around in circles on that topic recently in this room. I've decided to make a meta that tries to address one aspect of it at least, and would love to get feedback on it. Just FYI, I've quoted some of y'all in that post cc @Makyen, @JimGarrison, @IanCampbell.
 
3:33 AM
@cigien Thank you for your effort.
 
3:51 AM
@Turing85 np. Why did you delete your very nice comment? I was just about to reply it.
 
@cigien because it would distract from the actual question.
no, wrong. It misses the question and opens the possibility for a much broader discussion which, I think, is unwanted at this point in time. This might be something for a follow-up post.
(Don't worry, I volunteer for the next meta-post)
Does meta have an on-topic or how-to-ask guide?
 
@Turing85 Sorry, got distracted. Yes, your comment addressed the broader question rather than the specific aspect in the question, but as I mentioned in the last paragraph, that discussion will have to be had eventually, and I don't see a problem with leaving the comment you did. Be bold, it's only meta, what's the worst that could happen? :)
 
@cigien Step by step.
 
Fair enough :) No pressure.
@Turing85 Hmm, I would think there should be, but I can't find any :p
 
Frankly, I find that homework FAQ to be not very useful. From what I can tell, that FAQ alone has been used for over a decade to justify every single approach to dealing with homework questions. I've done the experiment of trying to find justification in that FAQ for closing every question if it's homework, and I've also tried to find justification that a question shouldn't be closed just because it's homework.
It is very easy to justify either argument using the text in that FAQ, so I find it rather hard to take it seriously.
 
The whole topic is full of contradictions. "Write an answer that fits OPs skill level and that they understand" but "Do not downvote answers that don't follow those rules" - If there is an abstract answer, potentionally leading to OP solving the concrete problem on their own and ready-to-use code... which one would be preferred by most OPs?
 
i wouldn't go so far as to say that that FAQ should be binned, but resolving the many many inconsistencies in that document promises to be a herculean task. I wouldn't be opposed to efforts to start constructing a new document about homework questions.
 
Then there is this. Going by this line of argumentation, all questions must have a good faith effort in order to ensure the user will undestand our answer.
Don't get me wrong; I do not think that a good faith attempt is necessarily needed in either case to judge the skill level of the user. I also think that it is sometimes needed in both cases.
 
4:28 AM
You appear to have quite a number of views on this topic, and you seem able to convey those views quite well. I've already promised to refrain from discussing this topic in this room, and discourage such conversations by pushing them to meta, but I am clearly failing at that :p
Would you consider writing an answer on the meta? No rush of course, but I would rather have this discussion there. I suspect users who are not members of this room would like to hear the various view points on this topic.
Continuing this conversation in here, while fun, would clutter up the transcript with a conversation that would really be much more fruitful if had on Meta.
 
Oh sorry, I was unaware that those things are off-topic here. The FTR, I think, should remain. With regards to the answer... I yet have to reach a final conclusion. Right now I am just weighing.
 
Oh no, they are not off-topic. i'm certainly not going to say you should stop having the conversation. I'm just pointing out that I'm going to refrain from having it here, and in my opinion other users should have the discussion on meta instead as well :)
If you want to refine some of your arguments, or just get clarity on some points, you should join the Ministry of Silly Hats. Several of us have already been using that chat room as a place to figure out how we should approach a discussion on meta.
 
This here is just we happy few, people I am familiar with, my... "comfort zone" if you so want. I am just thing out aloud, hoping for some responses and impulses. I am not (yet) willing to share those thoughts on meta.
 
 
3 hours later…
 
8:45 AM
This user published in the last hour 7 very similar answers: stackoverflow.com/users/14883252/pepe123 How (and if) should that be flagged?
 
@TomerShetah use a mod flag on a post of theirs, link to one other example, explain what is similar between those 7 answers so the mod knows what to look for.
if the questions those answers are on are duplicates, issue dupe votes on the question as well.
You can include that fact in your flag, it helps to convince that the questions are similar, so are the answers
 
9:30 AM
@cigien Your example is getting nitpicked into being both unclear and not focused. And the post itself is even getting closed.
 
9:43 AM
Somebody just retagged 50 questions with [tag:gibberish].
It was previously burninated - https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/344165/this-tag-is-literally-gibberish
What should be the next steps?
 
@VadimKotov mod flag
 
@VadimKotov uggghh. Ping them first while linking to that meta post? And then rollback their edits. assuming it are only retags. If that gets declined, mod flag.
Maybe leave a comment for Martijn on that meta post
But I assume Martijn won't be that busy the coming days
 
@rene Thanks, did that
 
So renaming it to Gobbledygook is not an option? ;)
 
Btw, why was tag markup not rendered in my question? Wrong syntax or what?
 
10:01 AM
Why was this Answer deleted?
 
@Scratte It looks like a "me too" answer (i.e. really a question)
Hoppy Christmas everyone \o
 
@Scratte You try that on Meta ;)
 
@halfer But it's not.. just the first sentence is. Then a workaround solution or maybe an actual solution.
 
10:19 AM
@Scratte Want me to edit the "me too" stuff out so you can flag for a mod reconsideration? Happy to.
 
10:32 AM
@halfer What you're asking is "Do you want to raise a high risk flag?" :D
 
10:46 AM
34
Q: Is it time to operate on the [DevOps]?

MureinikDo we really need a devops tag on Stack Overflow? Putting the topicality of those questions aside for a moment, do we really gain anything from having such a tag? While many of those questions are on-topic and do have merit, DevOps seems to be a meta tag at best. DevOps relates more to the proces...

 
11:01 AM
^ that isn't really misleading. It goes to a "my-own-voice" page.
 
11:13 AM
Do we have some kind of internal tool to track things like open topics to discuss?
 
For the room or for Stack?
 
for the room.
 
Other then the github repo for roommeeting subjects we don't have other tools of that nature. Do you want us to facilitate that?
 
@rene what github repo?
 
11:20 AM
@rene Also, I am not familiar with the ticket system ono github, but if it is anything remotely to gitlab issues, it is unsuited, i.e. has not enough features.
@rene looks abandoned to me
 
It certainly isn't
@Turing85 then no, we don't have tooling.
 
12:10 PM
@cigien That's what happens when you write something that isn't self consistent. Read the help center for examples of self consistent guidance. Meta is full of trying to conciliate two orthogonal opinions.
 
Anyone interested in investigating possible voting fraud?
 
@Scratte: we can't even if we wanted. Only a true site moderator or site employee has the ability to actually do this.
 
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter The initial investigation that one needs to do before raising a flag.
 
@Scratte: even that would require you to ask some of us to focus on a user rather than on the merits of an individual post, and I thought that this sort of request is against the rules of this chatroom
 
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter It is, which is why I'm asking if anyone is interested in doing it. I'm not.. I didn't post the details in here, and I don't intend to either.
Or rather.. I'd do the research, but that's a bit silly, since I'm not raising a flag no matter what I find.
 
12:25 PM
@Scratte then why bring it up?
 
@DontKnowMuchButGettingBetter I figured it was better to not completely pretend I didn't see it. Some find it a nice challenge or something they want to do.
 
12:45 PM
Merry Christmas!
5
 
1:19 PM
@desertnaut Wouldn't it be possible to edit that to be a HowTo Question?
 
@Scratte wouldn't that change the intent?
 
@desertnaut I don't see how. They want to remove fragments from a video. They want to know how to do it, no? Any tool recommendation would come with exactly how to do it and not just a link.
 
@Scratte OP asks if there are existing tools to help them write such a utility; they then go on (in a PS) to ask explicitly if there are possibly tools that get the job done altogether. I cannot take the responsibility of hypothesizing that what they actually meant to ask was a how-to question, and then proceed to edit the post by removing these actual questions based on such a hypothesis (however reasonable it may sound).
plus we are not talking about a new OP here; they shoule be aware about how (and what) to ask by now
 
@desertnaut Naah. That learning about how Stack works is way overrated. Only curators actually go and do that. And usually because they set suspended in review and have to do in order to continue reviewing. Then they (read: we) get accustomed to the "rules" and think everyone else went through the same process.
Anyway, I dropped a comment. Maybe they'll edit it.
 
2:08 PM
@Braiam Agreed, and that's not too surprising for a community edited FAQ. The help center does have fairly consistent guidance generally, but I recently posted a meta asking about an apparent inconsistency in there.
 
umm... guys, if a particular answer to a question does not answer the question, but is really helpful to the question and expects a reply from the OP; on which that can be converted to an answer, is it a good idea to flag it as not an answer?
 
@d4rk4ng31 I see this as an Answer. It's claiming that there are no issues with the code in the Question. It's then asking three questions, which I interpret as rhetorical, since those are what the Question author should do.
 
@Scratte umm... Also let me know which OS are you using (Ubuntu, centos, windows, etc)?
 
If they had written those as statements without question marks, I'm going to guess you wouldn't have asked that here, right?
 
2:22 PM
@Scratte Quite right. Silly me :D
 
@d4rk4ng31 That can be edited out. And I've seen those before. Do you mean to say there's no value in the entire post due to a follow up question? :P
 
@Scratte Err... no. definitely not
Though it kind of is weird. the error really is still occurring in my system :(
 
@Scratte are you "fluent in stackedit.io"? Do you know if one can save&share documents there?
 
@Turing85 I've never tried that.. I only use it when I have a 30,000 character post that I want to create :D
 
anyone else having some experience with stackedit.io?
Or do I really have to create a github-repo to share it?
 
2:25 PM
@d4rk4ng31 Ah. But I see you've posted a comment. They may get back to you, no? :)
@Turing85 It seems to want you to "Sign in with Google" :(
 
@Scratte ... which, in return, would mean that the receiver must also sign in with google?
 
@Turing85 Not sure about that.. But one needs to go it in order to find out :'( Which makes me not want to find out.
But.. a workaround: 1. Do your thing. 2. Paste your thing into a pastebin. 3. Share your pastebin. 4. Let the other paste it into stackedit.io :)
It's only a really horrible workaround when you want to share edits to it.
 
@Turing Hey, nice nick ;) Greetz from bavaria o/
 
@Scratte That should work. Thanks for the suggestion!
 
@d4rk4ng31 NAA/LQP needs to be obvious that it's not an answer. If it looks like a potential answer, we have a decline message just for that
 
2:39 PM
I'm using it to type up longer posts (undisturbed), and then just copy the markup into my draft SE post for fine tuning (the results aren't exactly the same.
To save locally, I am using notepad++ or some other appropiate text editor. There's no save option in stackedit.io IIRC, but it remembers what you did last.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Thank you =) greetings from Cologne
 
@d4rk4ng31 That's just an extended comment. He's confirming that the issue OP is seeing they are not seeing them, and then to verify potential problems.
The entire answer is asking for diagnostic information. Ignore the code block, is just "I don't see this problem on my end".
 
I have a draft for a meta-post and would like to have some feedback. If there are people who want to provide some feedback, please let me know.
 
@Turing Ah, wait. I am just looking, you can have several separate documents.
 
@Turing85 side note: the document is password-protected. We would need an out-of-band communication channel in order to exchange the password.
 
2:42 PM
I suppose a more complicated workaround is to share a cookie or something :(
 
@d4rk4ng31 BTW, it's a bug in buildkit github.com/moby/buildkit/issues/1267
 
@πάνταῥεῖ That's the same name as I used. Did you take over my session? :D
 
@Scratte Looks like it works with cookies, and you accepted at some point it's allowed to do so? :-D
I found some great notebook tool for math BTW: mathcha.io
Still experimenting (got it yesterday). I want to use that on my Android tablet, but the free version is browser based anyways.
A glorified online LaTex Processor more or less, despite you don't really need to type any LaTex code.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ sheesh. That was a hussle to set-up. Okay, I got it in my drive. So if someone wants to provide feedback lemme know and I will share the drive-link.
 
2:57 PM
@Braiam Ah! But in that case, how is it that the build runs successfully in the answerer's machine?
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I don't recall allowing it. Perhaps I did. I'll check next time I restart by browser.
 
@d4rk4ng31 Because run and build do different things.
 
@Braiam Yeah of course, but in this case its build in both cases
 
@d4rk4ng31 "I tried to run above dockerfile" I don't think so ;)
 
@Turing85 I'm not sure what you meant by that. I didn't log in with google and I can still create files in the Temp. It's just that I don't expect them to be around after I close them.
 
2:59 PM
@Braiam Right! I mis-read that. Sorry my bad :)
 
@Scratte well I need the file somewhere persistent such that I can share it with others. the simplest thing is to let stackedit save them in my drive, and then give access to people through a link to the drive-folder or document.
 
@Zoe It still has a score of -2 ATM
 
@Braiam But doesn't that mean that he is not able to reproduce the issue cause he is fundamentally doing something different? Hmm... but that means, it still is not an answer. In fact that could literally have been a "not reproducible or caused by a typo" flag
 
Zoe
@πάνταῥεῖ 4 days old, so it's possible to delvote
 
Oop's did I overlook? Yes :-P
 
3:02 PM
@Turing85 But then, as you pointed out, they need to also log in, no? Else they won't be able to set their workspace to your drive, or did I miss something?
 
@d4rk4ng31 That's why I commented.
 
Zoe
^^
 
@d4rk4ng31 It looks like if you want to retain anything from that one, you're going to have to copy'n'paste fast..
 
@Scratte Yep. I am fast at typing :)
 
@Scratte not necessarily no. The file can be accessed iff. someone has the link (read-only). The content can then be pasted directly into stackedit.io
 
3:04 PM
@Turing85 Yes, of course :) But it wasn't the workflow I imagined you were going for.
 
@Scratte For the time being, I am happy if I have an easy waay to share the current state of the document.
 
3:31 PM
@AmitJoshi Please add valid reasons to your del-pls requests. The fact that a post will not Roomba is not a reason to delete it.
 
Does somebody know whether the "FAQ on meta"-section on help is curated or auto-generated?
 
@cigien I placed that request through SO Script Dialog Box and the reason was auto populated. Anyway, I can modify that reason and I will put more details next time I place request. About that particular question, it is opinion based and there are no useful answers.
 
@Turing85 I'm not sure exactly what you mean. You've linked to the [help] pages. Diamond moderators can single-handedly edit any of those pages if they want to. Those pages can't be edited in any way by regular users, and even the revision history for those pages is not publicly visible.
 
@cigien I'm not sure all of those can be edited by diamond moderators. I think only site specific pages can. But I'm really not sure about how that works
 
3:46 PM
@AmitJoshi Oh, that request was generated by a userscript? Ok, I'll take a look in the transcript to see if this has come up before. It probably has. Thanks.
 
@Turing85 the way to avoid the one-box is uploading in the sand-box to get the imgur and then pasting it here (I have to admit I also don't always make the effort)...
 
there is a "FAQ on meta" section on the help page: http://i.stack.imgur.com/eoZnC.png#.png

is this list auto-generated through some metrics or is this list hard-coded/hand-picked/curated?
@bad_coder sigh thanks for the top
 
@Turing85 Ah, I see what you mean. I don't know how that list is generated. I suspect moderators will be able to edit that list regardless.
 
I saw a conversation recently about (maybe in here, maybe in the Ministry) and thought it was joke. But it isn't. Can we flag the tag as R/A? xD
 
Zoe
the tag must've been burned since
 
4:01 PM
Yeah. Inside the review, there are 49 Qs. Outside, there is none.
 
Zoe
yeah
 
@AmitJoshi Ok, it seems this was discussed recently. As far as I can tell, this message started it, and is resolved with this message. I can't find a message from Makyen saying that feature has been added yet. It was only 10 days ago, so it might take some time.
In the interim, don't worry about it I guess. If you do remember to add an actual reason, that would be preferable of course, but no point stressing out about userscript bugs.
 
Zoe
That explains it :')
 
I also object to Gibberish being equated to gobbledegook. They are clearly different languages.
 
Zoe
gibberISh GiBbErish!
 
4:07 PM
@AdrianMole Nice reject reason :D
 
gobbledegook and gibberish
are gone if you use your babelfish =)
 
@AdrianMole It looks strange, but I'm not sure. I take it you don't like the tag, or the suggested wiki. Why exactly?
 
@cigien Well, if the term is to be used in a programming context, then it's just a synonym for (say) .
 
@AdrianMole :D I could see it being applicable for a question related to NLP or something like that.
 
OK - major test: Can one be an expert in Gibberish?
 
4:11 PM
@AdrianMole That's a good question. I guess not.
@AdrianMole That seems to be sufficient grounds to reject the wiki suggestion, correct?
 
@cigien To me, yes, it is. There's also the suggested edit for the excerpt in the queue, but I refrained from posting that here, as it may look like user-targeting.
 
@AmitJoshi Thank you :) I appreciate it.
 
... I'm out of edit reviews for today, but the excerpt would qualify for "Lack usage guidelines." I'd be very interested to see what those could be. xD
 
@AdrianMole Yeah, that seems reasonable. I'll write a custom message, and reject, I think.
 
4:27 PM
Is this question about docker off-topic since it is not directly programming-related?
 
Someone crushed my dreams of being a gribberish SME :(
6
 
@AmitJoshi You can trigger roomba for this by downvoting the answer
 
@oguzismail That is strongly discouraged.
 
@Scratte I do that aaall the time
 
@oguzismail See Clean-up by downvoting? A ridiculous user experience and there are many other posts about downvote fine Answers. Admitting to doing it is honorable. Doing it.. not so much.
 
4:46 PM
@Scratte There are many useless, low-quality duplicates that are one downvote away from being roombad. I don't want to make a request for each and hope that someone cares to spend a delete vote for it
 
@oguzismail You're allowed to downvote for any reason you want (mostly). You're not supposed to suggest downvoting something in this room.
 
@oguzismail That's like a small war. So some users will go and upvote these Answers because they know someone else is going to try to enable Roomba by downvoting the Answers.. it's both working against the way it's supposed to be, no?
 
@Scratte What do they call Gibberish in Danish? Just "Danish?" xD
 
@Scratte Why would they do that?
 
@AdrianMole We call it "volapyk" or "sludder" or "vrøvl" or both "sludder og vrøvl". I like the first one best, since that's an actual language :D
@oguzismail Why would you? It's the same argument, but reversed. They will do it to make it harder for others to delete a post anonymously.. which is exactly what you're doing if you downvote an Answer just to enable Roomba.
 
4:54 PM
@Scratte Because I think a few duplicates are enough for simple topics. No one has done such a thing yet
 
@oguzismail I like duplicates though. I like variety is the ways to see the problem and if I'm learning something new, I like variety in the Answers.
And sometimes the Answer on the duplicate is way better than any one of the target. And then I will certainly upvote it. But then.. someone comes along and downvotes this nice answer to get rid of the entire thing.. with no checks and completely anonymously. I find that to be.. dubious.
 
@oguzismail Actually, I'm confident that I've seen this happen many times. Since votes are anonymous, there's no way to prove it, but I've seen enough cases where high rep users will answer a duplicate, the post gets closed with a target, and if it has a downvote, it magically gets an upvote even though the post doesn't deserve it.
Given the pattern of which posts this happens to, and the users involved, the most plausible explanation is that those users know that upvotes will make it harder for the post to Roomba, or be deleted by curators, and they can hold on to rep that way.
 
@Scratte I don't think there's room for variety in answers when the question is basically How do I store a command's output in a variable?. I do upvote nice answers to duplicates too
 
@oguzismail Sorry :) I didn't check this particular post. I was making it more general.
 
@cigien Yeah that happened to me too. We deleted a question here, then the high-rep answerer came here to complain, then we chickened and undeleted it :D
 
5:01 PM
@oguzismail Huh, really? If you can link to that in the transcript, I would like to read that discussion very much.
 
@Scratte I understand your concerns though. But really, I'm not trying to get rid of duplicates that have the potential to help future visitors
 
@cigien Not sure if reputation is the motivating factor though. It could be just to keep the post on the site as a non-involved user.
 
@cigien It was a couple months ago. But I still follow that question
@Scratte It's often the motivating factor
 
@oguzismail I don't think you remember that the way I do.. I'm not sure we chickened out. I think some of us saw value and decided to keep it :)
@oguzismail It is.. but flyby upvoters don't care that someone gets reputation from it. They just want posts to stay on the site :P
 
@oguzismail I'm not sure, but I think it's acceptable to share that link here. Do you mind sharing it with me?
 
5:05 PM
@Scratte To me that translates to chickening out. Even the answer was a duplicate IIRC
 
@oguzismail Thank you.
 
@oguzismail The target only has 2 duplicates.
 
@Scratte And in my opinion that's enough for such a trivial question
 
@oguzismail I don't think that's enough for Stack though. Signposts have value too.
 
@Scratte It was nowhere near being a signpost until TylerH edited in a proper title
 
5:11 PM
But isn't that how it's suppose to be? If one can edit and salvage, it's better than just delete?
 
Yeah, I guess so. The answerer could have done that too, but he didn't want to waste his time as he already got the rep.
 
@cigien That's why I learned to wait patiently for the right time :D
Sadly, we've been reduced to strategic voting.
 
@oguzismail You can't know that. I've gotten votes on posts where I did not edit the Question too. I don't chase reputation. I just don't like to edit. It's difficult to know what someone's motivation is.
 
@Scratte I can and do know that, change the topic
 
I didn't bring that topic up. I just replied to it being brought up.
 
5:20 PM
@oguzismail Out of votes (close, down, and delete) for day. Will do that tomorrow. Thanks.
 
@Braiam Have we? I've never done that kind of strategic voting, and I believe many others do not as well. Do you believe this kind of voting to be fairly common?
@AmitJoshi Just in case it's not clear, oguzismail's suggestion for downvoting an answer so that the post gets deleted is considered "unacceptable". I'm using quotes because this behavior is not unacceptable in any enforceable sense. In fact, it has been made clear that moderators cannot and will not enforce this. So I guess it's unacceptable in the sense that other users will peer at you disaprovingly over their spectacles :p Make of that what you will.
:51231317 Don't bother with deleting correct requests just because they get acted upon in the 2 minute window. It's not a big deal, but it's nice for the transcript to be able to keep track of the kinds of requests made here.
 
@cigien It's in my case. I've waited months to vote for something and get the desired result that I will not get because the issue is too "hot" at the moment.
If people are voting against my vote for the fact that it's my vote, then I just wait till they aren't paying attention.
It's strategic voting in the sense that if my vote becomes invalid inorganically, then I just wait until a moment where it doesn't have that drawback
 
@cigien I understand and I have read the posts related to this. I am aware about it. Now, about this particular answer, it is low quality, a guess work, no value. When I said above I choose to downvote it, it is not "just to trigger roomba" the question. In fact, I will argue, I do not understand the upvote on that answer. But, yes, that is out of control.
 
5:36 PM
@AmitJoshi Of course. It's just that you responded to a message that said "You can trigger roomba for this by downvoting the answer", and didn't clarify that you would be downvoting for other reasons, so I wasn't sure if you were clear on that. It appears that you are, so that's great.
 
5:52 PM
Do we have a canonical for "no effort is no close reason"?
 
a canonical comment?
 
@Turing85 Not sure. In general, there aren't canonicals for each one of the infinite number of reasons that are not close reasons. It's kind of implied that every reason not listed under the close reasons is not a close reason. Seems straightforward enough, but it doesn't seem to be a criteria that all users use consistently.
 
@Turing85 There are many posts discussing this on Meta.SE. Here's one with an answer by Jeff Atwood.
 
@rene no, a canonical meta post
 
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