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17:00
"Gather objective data on how many gold-badge users the chat room has, compared to other rooms."
This one, I did a couple weeks ago! gist.github.com/kms70847/b97968f7be8d6f08b5a281007532b899 shows my work and the results.
add one to python
Congratulations to Docker, whose regulars all have a Docker gold badge. Silver-tier congratulations to Python, which has 70% regulars with python-related gold badges. The second highest on the site by percent, and the highest by raw count :-)
Many pats on the backs all around.
Is this just for bragging rights, or is there swag involved?
I hope there is
Only the satisfaction of a job well done
next: "Establish a mechanism for user grievances." as alluded to in the conversation about the first agenda item, we don't have one of these yet.
17:03
Conversely there are some highly active Python users/ gold-badgers who never come to this room.
I propose we use the yammin' chat room for that
Not everyone likes to chat
We now have two shiny concrete resolutions which will hopefully accelerate work on this. In addition, please accept my sincere personal apology for my own executive dysfunction.
@Aran-Fey the reason why we didn't want that is endless meta discussions mixing with python. It should be separate.
(If memory serves. Perhaps that's just my reason for not wanting that)
I wonder if a possible stopgap could be to have a meta-Python room? or would the moderators not like a room that isn't specifically about a programming language?
17:06
I think mods could tolerate it. The airing of grievances got mixed with requests for it to be anonymous, and chat isn't.
I'm fine with whatever, but as long as no alternatives exist I will voice my concerns in here and nobody better try to stop me
Though I fear what dark words it may bring, I'm willing to try it. Resolution: create a Meta Python room for the public non-anonymous airing of grievances
@Aran-Fey well somebody might try, but you are right
next: "Put more effort into warning users before kicking them"
I think this is hard to measure, but I feel like we're doing alright at this.
I don't think that has been an issue for a long time. In other words, we have.
17:08
It's kind of hard to tell if someone's been kicked, but I do think we've improved at that
Absent any better, transparent mechanism, I recommend it should be allowable for users to discuss grievances in the room. And moreover, those discussions should not be deleted/sent to Ourobouros.
I might not say "you will be kicked", but it's hard to miss the explicit warnings. Words along the lines of "stop".
I don't hate the idea of bringing up quick issues in main chat, but if it drags out, I reserve the right to migrate to MetaPython
sounds reasonable to me
@AndrasDeak Yeah, I think that's a good approach.
Next: "Include a link to SOPython’s Github page."
17:10
since the meta room would be accessible (at worst read-only with permissions granted by default), moving messages there should be fine
(but moving on)
We indirectly do this already, with a link to "sopython-site v1.7.1" at the footer of every SOPython page. I don't think it's quite important enough to put in the room description.
What would the goal of such a link be?
Increase community engagement with our open-source work, I suppose
I think the users enthusiastic about that kind of thing can find their way there with a bit of work ;-)
Link from the wiki
@Kevin yeah, that's what I was thinking
@PaulMcG :P
or pin it
17:12
Hmm, it may be logical to add a more explicit link to the "Contact Us" section of the /chatroom page. Resolution: add a more explicit link to the "Contact Us" section of the /chatroom page.
Oops, I forgot the pandas item. "How can we influence new users to ask better pandas questions on the main site?"
a) It happened to me a couple of weeks ago. b) There was no explicit warning. c) There was no comment directed to me at all d) There was merely a general "Let's please stop..." comment which is a personal suggestion, not an order, and sounds like an individual suggestion, not an RO command e) I never saw that comment, because it was apparently intentionally posted just before kicking me f) Moreover, all this was done in retaliation against me for raising repeated behavior by other user
there are a few things to unpack here
@Kevin should we move on or stick here for a while?
Let's stick here.
Can kicked users not read messages sent just before they're kicked? That's a problem. What does it say when you try to go back in to the room?
I was under the impression that you could join, but in a read-only way
At the very least I'd think that the ping would be directed to the kicked user's inbox, accessible from the main site
17:16
@smci a) Okay. b) When a room owner says "let's drop the subject" they mean it. It might sound polite, because we're all reasonable people here. I don't feel that making moderation imperatives sound police-y would be an improvement. If your soft skills necessitate that I do this, I will take care to be explicit about consequences. Most users don't find it difficult to understand that "stop discussing this subject" means "if you don't, I will make you".
@Kevin feel free to kick me for shortDuration, so that I can report observations
Ok, thanks for volunteering :-)
Bye for now... I guess we'll find out in a minute what it looks like
@Kevin No, in the case where a comment was deliberately posted to make me look bad, knowing that I would not subsequenrly be able to read it (or point out that it was untruthful and disparaging) until after the kick. Moreover the kick itself was a violation of policy, and in retaliation. Yet as to the user who violated policy repeatedly against me, nothing happened to them.
Which policy? Stack Exchange policy? Or room policy?
@smci e) I don't just post a warning to drop a subject and instantly kick users. So some time must have went on between the two events, and you are not exempt from repercussions if you don't pay attention to what goes on in chat. More importantly, "apparently intentionally posted just before kicking me" is an accusation that I reject. Assuming flat-out bad faith is beyond response from me.
We can discuss about misunderstandings and miscommunication, but if you accuse us (or me, doesn't matter) with intentional harm then I don't think there's anything I can say at that point
I got that when I was kicked. I was not able to read the room. I didn't think to check the transcript which would have likely been a workaround
I also suspect that the transcript is still readable. I don't want to repeat the experiment since the timeout is automatically longer the second time.
Just to be clear: messages before the kick are meant to be read before the kick
@inspectorG4dget Yes, you cannot see what claimed warning might or might not have existed, and you can't see the transcript until after kickban.
17:19
I often leave messages while the user is out, which they should be able to see when they come back. At times I explicitly point them to the messages posted in the mean time.
Hmm. So chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/6 isn't visible during the kick duration? I don't like that.
@smci f) again, calling moderation action "retaliation" is way off the mark. I will kick whomever I need to keep the room at peace. If you are disrupting the peace for whatever reason that you think is merited, you are a problem.
What I personally think about a person is irrelevant when I moderate.
I don't know if it's a huge problem that users can't see the "I kicked you because..." message until after the timeout ends. It's very very rare that the timeout lasts more than, say, ten minutes, so it doesn't take all that long to discover the justification.
does kickDuration reset after longTime? or is it a strict counter? eg: "You were kicked for the first time, for 1min 5 years ago. Today, your kickban will be 2min"
@inspectorG4dget after 24 hours I think
after 3 kicks or so mods get an autoflag
17:22
@Kevin I still think that kickedUser should get kickReason in that screenshot
so it's hard to miss both persistent problem users and abuse of kicks
@AndrasDeak cool beans
@AndrasDeak b) I did not read AD's personal suggestion. AD you keep conflating your personal opinion with your RO status with making comments on behalf of the majority ROs. I recommend you stop doing that and use the phrases "As an RO..." or Speaking on behalf of ROs..." e) That is what happened, and in fact worse: there was no warning at all, and since I was not @ messaged I never saw it. "Let's stop doing X..." is a personal suggestion, not an order, not "telling people",...
... and not "telling @ individual users"
@inspectorG4dget there's no "reason", just "kick" :(
I think it would be excellent if SO implemented a "Kick Reason" field. [wistful sigh]
17:23
oh schucks! that /would/ be /so/ useful (souds sarcastic, but I really mean it)
yeah, it would
I do think there is merit to the suggestion of making a clear distinction between "helpful suggestions made by ROs as part of regular conversation" and "instructions given by ROs using their authority as an RO"
@smci I promise I will try to ping you with an official hat and official wording if I want you to stop doing what you're doing
I usually add "<donning my RO hat>" when I flex my mighty abilities, and I find that works pretty well
My impression that a friendly-sounding suggestion is enough for people to take a hint is clearly wrong
so I'm sorry about that
17:25
Programmers like clear distinct lines :-)
It has always ever been thus.
@smci - is this some progress on your issue?
@AndrasDeak Much of that claim is disparaging, and incorrect. Other people can verify that. Without using the R******N-word, I was kicked after another user attacked me in the chatroom (and not for the first time). The other user was not kicked, nor warned not to post attacks in chat. Kicking me in that circumstance was per se unreasonable; discussions about etiquette of kicking are secondary. This comes back to a repeated topic in the room for several years: unwelcoming, viz. RO behavior.
I think I'm blind, but it's not immediately obvious to me, that the usernames are italicized. This makes it difficult for gadgetEyes to recognize ROs immediately. But I've been here long enough to know who the regulars are
@inspectorG4dget most people are unaware of that detail, and mobile again doesn't discern room owners
@smci okay
Is there an actionable suggestion here?
Adressing the "violation of policy" point. If I understand correctly, this is about ROs violating Stack Exchange site policy. I don't think we have violated policy. Obviously I'm biased, and trying to convince me would be quite difficult. I enthusiastically encourage you to seek justice from a higher authority. Perhaps make a post on Meta, or contact a moderator through flagging or some other means.
17:29
@AndrasDeak are we (for some loose definition of "we") therefore saying that we don't really car about making that distinction to users? or is this a known issue, somewhere in the backlog?
Stack Exchange can and has unseated ROs that were being naughty, so it's not an impossible goal.
@inspectorG4dget one of many issues in the interface, I think we'd all like ROship to be more obvious
but since we're not in charge of the software...see one of the earlier agenda points
@AndrasDeak I seem to recall some usernames were blue in the past? Is this related? were they perhaps diamonds (which would mean that I've conflated the issue)?
@AndrasDeak The actionable suggestions I see are: don your RO hat before making RO proclamations, and make sure that kick reasons have a direct ping
@inspectorG4dget yup, mods are blue on desktop
17:31
@Kevin I was kicked in retaliation for objecting to another user's sustained attack on me here in chat and in comments of questions. The kick itself was unjust - and you each can and should verify thatby reading the preceding transcript. Other user deserved to be kicked and warned (only one of their comments was deleted). There is clearly no effective channel where any of that can be fixed. It's further disparagement to continue to disparage me...
Second actionable item: the disparagement of disparagements should cease.
can ROs be green or otherColor then? Seems like the software's already set up for that kind of shenanigans. I know room6/ROs can't really do anything about this - I guess I'm just ranting
@inspectorG4dget see Jon's feature request about allowing low-reps into chat, sitting in the middle of nowhere with no change whatsoever
At the time of that conversation it was my opinion that the other user did not merit a kick. That is still my opinion at this time. If you feel that this constitutes an unwelcoming environment on the order of violating Stack Exchange policy, bring it up with Stack Exchange.
...The claim that I was "told to stop discussing it" in a general suggestion comment, with no "speaking as a RO", posted seconds before I was kicked, which I was not notified of since no @ mention, is incorrect. But all this procedural is secondary to the kicking being unjustified in the first place.
17:34
@smci thank you, but you have made that point already.
Is there anything else?
"How can we influence new users to ask better pandas questions on the main site?"
@Kevin This is the first I've heard that you reviewed it (or at least, partially reviewed it, without seeing other user's deleted comments). Did you ask me for the full timeline of what the other user posted? Did you notice that some of their comments on the matter were deleted? (if they weren't violating, why did that happen?)
Room Owners can see messages that are moved to the Ouroboros room, and they can see the previous revisions of messages that were edited or deleted by their owner. If the message was deleted by a moderator, I'm not sure I can see it, but when a blue diamond is involved, it's probably above my paygrade anyway.
I continue to uphold that new users are uninfluenceable, so I don't think there's much we can do collectively to help pandas users. Individual action, such as inviting the user to chat for some direct mentoring, continues to be possible, but that doesn't require a resolution from us.
Just to be clear: I stopped the discussion because it was getting out of hand. I only kicked who didn't drop the discussion when I said to do so. The kicking was not because of the preceding argument, where both parties were off, but because one party tried to drag the argument on after I said to end it.
I understand that the warnings were not insufficient, which I'm sorry for. I will take care so that part doesn't repeat.
@Kevin I'll be happy to provide all the details to you offline. My point is that there is little RO procedure, and that kicking can and should be near the least line in resolving (legitimate) issues. Where one particular RO is no longer able to resolve an issue, they can simply step back on that issue and say "I will refer this matter to other ROs"
17:40
@smci On the contrary, kicking is meant as a quick glass of water to snap a user out of problematic behaviour if nice words don't work.
that's the reason why a first kick lasts a minute or so
The very finalmost agenda item from 2018 Q3 is "Hold a meeting one quarter after this one, around Nov 19 2018". There's not much to say about this other than, boy we really dropped the ball on this one and never had the meeting. As the de facto chairman at that time, I accept full responsibility, and I have no excuse. Please accept my most groveling apology, and a resolution to do better.
@AndrasDeak You could (and should) have kicked or warned the other user at any point in their trail of behavior. That's the underlying issue. When you kick (or at minimum don't warn) the wrong person, it's rewarding the other uer's violating behavior.
So you're saying...I did wrong to kick you so easily, but I should've kicked the other person you were arguing with earlier?
ROs already talk with other ROs all the time about current issues, and will discuss actions they take. Just because that discussion doesn't fall in your favor doesn't mean there's something bad going on.
Resolution: hold a meeting one quarter after this one, around February 7 2020"
That's it for formal agenda items. and so I will open the floor for, uh, the argument about kicking that's already happening
17:43
@smci Quoting myself because my memory is not the best: "he may have been harsher than necessary, but I don't think he was rude". This boils down to subjective assessment of language.
I don't kick users for being harsh but not rude. I stop the harshness from escalating into an argument.
Which I did.
@davidism It's unclear what you're saying: that "all major RO actions are automatically seen and reviewed by other ROs" or "RO actions are (sometimes) reviewed by other ROs when the first RO messages them and asks them to". Remember, 99% of us here have zero visiblity into whatever process might or might not be.
You can make a point that my stopping was inadequately conveyed, which you did, and I accept. You can make a point that it was rude, to which I can't say anything except "okay".
We're constantly finding a balance between "let's give just one more chance" and "it's time to take further measures". We generally try to communicate what we want, unless we've already communicated to that user before and the behavior is continuing yet again. Despite saying we don't know all the context in your specific case, we keep track of quite a lot of context.
From what I've seen when I drop in and when it's mentioned elsewhere, I don't see any issues with how Andras has been handling RO duties. Additionally, he's said he'll go even further in communicating decisions, so I'm not sure what you expect at this point.
FWIW I've reviewed the RO action here and I agree with Andras' decision to kick.
@smci And for the record, I posted the "drop it" message at 9:24 UTC, saying "So let's please drop the arguing (this goes for everyone). Points have been made.". And you posted your ongoing message at 9:27, three minutes later. chat.stackoverflow.com/messages/47546894/history I expected you to have read my message by then (on the contrary to "intentionally posted warning before kicking me".
17:48
it is one-minute cool-down.
I think this item has gone as far as it can in the format allotted, so, any other last-minute items?
@AndrasDeak a) I did not see any such message before I was kicked. b) There was no @ mention so no ping c) I was writing an answer to a question, in another tab. I was in that other tab when I got ping'ed from the Python room with a kick-notice. I couldn't even see why for a minute later. e) The kick was wrongful, as documented.
there was @PaulMcG's suggestion about welcoming to newbies
@Kevin Can we make some recommendations on RO behavior?
17:51
Certainly, but I suggest doing so in the Meta Python room which I am about to create in the next five minutes. Until then, I bang my gavel, signalling the formal end of the room meeting.
@Kevin except Paul's suggestion about newbies? :P
@Kevin What was the point of discussing RO behavior or unwelcoming, for another year, without making recommendations?
You don't have to wait another year :-) You have to wait five minutes
@AndrasDeak Oops, I can't unbang the gavel.
I should've pinged you with the first message, sorry
@Kevin umm you should have banged three times.
@Kevin Ok to be clear, multiple (non-newbie) users have described the room as unwelcoming and highlighted issues in RO behavior for several years now, yet we have no recommendations about doing anything about it. That is the outcome of the meeting, yes?
@Kevin There was no agreement to move to MetaPython.
@smci Here's my recommendation: if you feel that this constitutes an unwelcoming environment on the order of violating Stack Exchange policy, bring it up with Stack Exchange.
@Kevin please add owners:P
@smci Sure there was. I resolved to reserve the right to move meta discussions to MetaPython, and nobody objected.
@Kevin That's not how meetings work, even if you're the chair. There was no vote or consensus on your proposal. Several people disagreed and made counterproposals, including keeping such discussions here, as they akways have been.
17:58
brb, the work server is on fire
@smci thank you for your input
banging the gavel
Ah it looks like I missed the meeting.
Those whose non-meeting messages were moved during the meeting are welcome to reraise them now
i cannot figure why this question was closed. :( seems pretty clear what OP wants.
18:03
if gavel was a django app
@anky_91 I think in that case "too broad" is codeword for "give me the codes"
in practice a lot of questions get closed like that (if you agree with that is another matter)
@anky_91 I would personally have voted "no mcve"
In it more often doesn't happen because some users will answer anything so fast that there's less point in closure
but the end result would have been more or less the same
@AndrasDeak okay
18:05
Aye, question is clear sure, but no effort shown by OP and so on. At this point though, i think pandas tag has a reputation of answering questions even without any expectations of efforts from OP
yeah, I agree
There's a lot of wiggle room for culture; for instance in people can be a lot more forgiving with MCVEs if the problem is clear
past trends are so bad that I am happy if there is a good way of reproducible the prob
may be that's an issue
@AnttiHaapala partially, we can reproduce it for sure :)
yeah, if you are accustomed to the gutter then a lot of things seem like improvements ;)
@AndrasDeak That's a good point, but FGITW in some topics is something we currently can't do anything about. (What was SO's official attitude to FGITW?)
18:08
the point is not in reproduction. The point is that it does not contain the minimal code needed to get to the starting position.
@AndrasDeak ha ha
@AnttiHaapala yes, agreed on that
@smci I don't think there's an official attitude. Good content is good, bad content is bad. Answering bad questions is discouraged by the help center.
even if I ask in comments what did OP try, there is no reply and there is an answer the next min, so it has skipped my mind
@AnttiHaapala
@AndrasDeak it will be great if you can summarize the meeting agenda and outputs for the non-attending members :)
I won't, but Kevin might ;)
if you meant the plural you: sure thing
@AndrasDeak Err, but merely "[FGITW] on bad questions is discouraged". Is there any official mechanism for handling users who FGITW 1,000 bad questions?
18:12
Agenda point for the next meeting: replace English with something unambiguous.
okay :) @Kevin if you think that's worth :)
I might point out we have a meta room now for meta discussion
It’s like you’re trying to create a chat versions of SO on SO.
@smci not really. You are always welcome to vote on the content, and serial downvoting can be legitimate if the content is serially bad
18:13
Ok so we have currently deployed flask to uat using linux server and the flask run. That's the the dev server. Not a good idea. Now we are moving to production. I am new to this area and The plan is to use a Linux server with pip install nginx and pip install gunicorn. 1st being webserver and 2nd the app server. So is it good to keep them (nginx and gunicorn) together on one machine or 2 machines?
I mean one machine with nginx and one for gunicorn
@AnttiHaapala thanks :) saved :P
@anky_91 I intend to write up a summary and add it to sopython.com/wiki/2019_Q4_General_Meeting, which is standardish operating procedure. ETA one hour or so
thank you @Kevin (Y)
18:46
Here's our resolution kanban, in lieu of the slightly more detailed breakdown I'll be making soonish
19:18
@AndrasDeak i think its a lot to do with the scope. python tag has a wider scope and hence without the try code you can be skeptical while answering, while a tabular data with a clear requirement is easier to answer.
unless OP is a filthy liar
yep :P
wim
wim
@AnttiHaapala 😂
rbrb
@anky_91 Summary complete, at sopython.com/wiki/2019_Q4_General_Meeting... Although I see that the summary is longer than the kanban, so I guess it's not that great of a summary :-I
19:33
9 messages moved to MetaPython
It's basically the resolutions list plus extra paragraphs saying "we talked about X but decided not to do anything about it"
@Kevin can you perhaps make a general meeting page (linking to individual ones) if time permits? the individual pages give an appearance on the index of archives-to-be-ignored.
should we move these meeting-follow-ups to the meta room?
I suppose.
Thanks @Kevin appreciate it. @AndrasDeak i second you. Rbrb. Bye
19:42
rbrb
@MisterMiyagi I think I can do that.
20:07
guys
Welcome
hey :))
how u been doing ?
hi :))
ok i will go straight to the point
i've just reinstalled python on my computer and while i'm reinstalling all the packages i got this error :

cannot import name 'clock' from 'time' (unknown location)
and looks like it was triggered by

 from passlib.hash import sha256_crypt
it must be related to some sort of update on passlib or python 3.8 version
any idea how i can fix this ?
Curious. As far as I can tell, the module time really doesn't have an attribute clock.
20:11
existing problem?
guess passlib is not stdlib
you can see if there are open/closed issues at github.com/efficks/passlib/issues and open one if it's a reproducible problem when installing passlib in a fresh env
Oh dear. I guess the best thing you can do is keep a 3.7-or-lower distribution installed for whenever you need to use passlib. At least until they release a 3.8 compatible version.
wim
wim
hmm, I think passlib is on bitbucket now
that github one looks outdated
time.clock was apparently deprecated in 3.3 and removed from the docs in 3.6
@AndrasDeak I will if not i might open a case for it.

@Kevin sounds like the best plan , yes i will reinstall everything but that would be 10 times better than go through with a beta version
Well, depends on how "beta" the beta version is. If the passlib on bitbucket is feature-complete and stable and 3.8 compatible, may as well use that.
20:16
@wim whoops
@Aran-Fey i think 3.4 was my version
I did check that it's "the" passlib, I didn't check activity
last release was in january 2017, oof
OOO!!!
then maybe i should look for an alternative
wim
wim
not necessarily
I have apps where the last release was v1.0.0 and they just keep working..
more important to see is the latest commit date
20:19
the trick is to write bug-free code that does everything
wim
wim
and/or check the CI matrix
@wim i disagree .. if everything is keep changing it's code this one will require loads of efforts from me because it will keep breaking and i will keep tacking it down every time.
wim
wim
for that one, I keep adding the new versions of Python and Django into the CI, but as long as the tests pass I don't need to make a new release.
hah, I think we are saying different things.
I'm saying eventually code doesn't need changes. Look at logging, it just works. It's not the most beautiful, but it just does what it does since forever
In a perfect world, a project that is constantly updating will only release when they're stable, and things won't break all that often.
and release notes (and deprecation warnings) broadcast the breakages when they do happen
20:24
well i guess it's not that big of a deal , i will see if i can fix that line in the package :)
passlib making use of time.clock worries me, and this line of code I found doesn't exactly make me more optimistic: os.path.join(__file__, "..")
from time import process_time as timer
that fixed it
@Aran-Fey don't too much they have 1.7.2 update for python 3.8
its just not released yet
also the bitbucket user interface infuriates me, so I'm gonna stop looking into it
@diamond can you install master from bitbucket (if you're feeling adventurous enough)?
@AndrasDeak i don't feel adventurous at all , i'm still learning ^^

i'm not sure what am i doing but since the pc is not smoking yet then i think i didn't screw up too much and i will try to keep it that way ^^
20:40
I'm as a room owner telling everyone to stop before this becomes yet another argument. I will kick those who pursue this path. This means you too, @smci.
1 message moved from Python Ouroboros - The Rotating Knives
(moving back for visibility of the warning)
@diamond I guess 3.8 is a bit too crispy fresh for some third-party libraries
1 message moved to MetaPython
@AndrasDeak yup !! passlib is preparing version 1.7.2 .. just for py3.8 , this is just an example.
20:55
room topic changed to Python: Room rules: tinyurl.com/s2plygp Code formatting guide: tinyurl.com/urnzp7k [python] [python-2.x] [python-3.x]
21:19
ew [python-2.x]
21:36
we can remove that next year
wim
wim
21:46
huh, tinyurl still exists?
I thought bit.ly killed it
@Kevin sweet... does it overflow or miss info if we were to prefix it with "Please see"... ?
wim
wim
page might take a while to load ... first few starlink sats
22:04
@roganjosh can't believe I forgot youtube.com/watch?v=_jTdnCbWJQE :p
@JonClements I think we're disjoint on the genre :/ I'd rather go with Styx that my dad imported to me by coming over from the US :)
@roganjosh yup love it
Have you seen the movie, though? IIRC Styx, Caugth In the Act. Utter garbage, but I feel the need to dig out the tape now :P
<--knows every word to Mr Roboto. Also, not proud
the "tape"... :)
The thingimagig that you push into the slot
23:01
Here's a cool Python thing from reddit: brachiograph.art
that's rare
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