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3:00 PM
In that order.
 
^^ What roel's saying
 
The problem is that I've already got the data
So
I built that db
like they told me to do
 
What about the APIs?
 
To make a mobile app you need to know UIs AND APIs
Apps can't (usually, and shouldn't ever) hit the database directly
 
They told me to start with a built-in-app db
and later I'll create the api's that pass the data
 
3:01 PM
And where do you get the data to fill it?
 
NONONO
 
cause now our major dev is doing other stuff
 
Yeah that's going to hurt later
when you need to refactor from direct db calls to api calls
 
file management is something I won't even attempt anymore
 
Which is awful.
 
3:02 PM
cloud all the way, baby
 
@RoelvanUden I sort of create that
Because they told me to do a totally different db from the existing one
But if I think about all the things that I don't know how to deal with
 
why are arrays fixed size?
 
don't panic
 
Y'know... it all sounds like your company has no idea what they're doing, either.
All I can say is... start simple. Start at the top and work your way down.
 
like handling loadings, server's api, notifications...
I feel like I've done 1% of the work and I'm already stuck with it
 
3:03 PM
@notatroll 'Cuz a chunk of memory is allocated to accommodate that array.
Memory can't grow 'cuz the memory beside it can be claimed already.
 
why not just make them dynamic?
like what is the benefits to fixed size
 
Use List<>
or Arraylist
 
If you list it they will come
 
I understand lists are dynamic in memory and items but I'm trying to understand why arrays are fixed size
 
@notatroll You can use a pointer to traverse an array of fixed size by incrementing the pointer without needing to keep track of where everything is in memory.
 
3:05 PM
I think cause arrays are consequential pieces of memory
 
so its faster access?
 
Yep
 
@notatroll lists are just abstractions
they're implemented using arrays
 
That's what I've studied
 
technically nothing is "dynamic" in size
 
3:06 PM
so List<T> uses array under the hood?
 
yep
when you reach the end, it doubles the array and copies the first half into the new one
 
but why is it slower to access items than an array is?
I'm currently studying arrays and linked lists but I'm not sure if its what I need to be studying tbh
 
for lists? for lists it's fast just like it's fast using arrays
 
Why do you think it's slower to access?
 
I'm sure I read it was slower
or something was slower
or removing an item?
 
3:07 PM
@notatroll A IList<T> is an abstract list. The common implementation, List<T>, is built on arrays, so it's very fast to access, but could be costly to add to.
 
Not sure if this video will sum it up for me?
 
A different implementation of IList<T> might be using a LinkedList<T>, which would be slow to access by index, but much quicker to add to, especially in the beginning/end.
 
speed isn't everything.
 
Except for when it is
 
3:08 PM
easier to address at that point then worry about it up front.
 
howdy
 
Is that video a good one to watch?
 
To get the item at position #12 on a linked list, you have to do 12 operations (iterate "this.Next" 12 times) and return it. For an array list, you need to calculate (start+12) and access it, and that's it.
 
It explains about arrays and linked lists
 
I'll tell you in 52mins
 
3:09 PM
ah yeah so accessing on a list is slower?
 
Either way, the difference will be negligile
 
it has to look up into the memory where the next position is
 
@notatroll On a linked list. That's one specific data structure.
 
@notatroll depends on how it is implemented
 
An ArrayList is a different data structure.
With different performance characteristics.
 
3:10 PM
List<T> is plenty fast enough and I challenge any of you to find a real world example where the performance is a problem
 
though typically you'd use an array-based implementation because literally every operation you could perform on the list is fast except add which is fast unless it is full
 
Ugh ArrayList
 
In every day usages, you'll almost always be using an arraylist, which has a good balance of speed of access and speed of update for common scenarios.
 
you'd probably use linkedlist for particular circumstances
 
Linked Lists are used in special cases and in job interviews. :)
4
 
3:11 PM
I use List<T> as the base of all of my collection classes and some of them are called literally millions of times in the space of a few seconds, and it's by far not the bottleneck
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan ArrayList is a specific type of non-generic list in C#, I take it you are not referring to that?
 
--- IIRC List<T> is based on Arraylist?--- Apparnetlly not
 
@JonathonChase An array list is a general term for a list implemented on top of an array. In .NET 1.0, the ArrayList class was the default implementation. In .NET 2.0, List<T> is simply a renamed, generic ArrayList.
 
@notatroll A List<T> uses an array internally. When it's about to expand, it creates a new chunk of memory that is twice the size of the old one, copies over all the content, and then destroys the old one. It keeps doing that each time it needs to expand. It wastes a lot of time on the copies and has much more memory in use than strictly necessary, so it's quite inefficient (relatively speaking).
 
3:12 PM
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Got it.
 
@HéctorÁlvarez F
 
@CaptainObvious I have a scenario exactly for this
Livechat server/client app
 
HashSet is better because the response time to query it stays relatively the same regardless of the size of data that you have in there
With a list, the bigger it gets the longer it takes to query it
 
3:14 PM
@CaptainObvious Keeping >= 2GB of data in memory :-)
 
So if you have a large scale deployment with lots of agents & clients all trying to speak to one another, speed is very much important
Also, it doesn't hurt to future proof it
 
@CaptainSquirrel Assuming order doesn't matter, and you have no duplicates.
 
just led the delivery guy for 7 minutes so he could drop the package safe at my grandmother's house, which was the 3rd next door.
 
@JonathonChase if you use a library like signlr, each connection(client) has a unique guid assigned to it
 
@CaptainObvious It could be a bottleneck if you have a list that can grow and shrink dramatically. You can have a list of 1000 items, which grows to a million, then shrinks back - but it will still have a million allocated. Not ideal.
 
3:15 PM
@Neil I generally use LinkedList for queues
 
How much does it costs to hire someone else to do this app?
 
And it handles disconnections/timeouts quite well
 
but... special queues
 
so arrays > lists?
if you know the size
 
our logging framework makes quite nice use of linked lists
 
3:15 PM
@Wietlol as you should. if you don't intend to access items from the middle
 
So you remove that item from the HashSet when the disconnect is called
 
@Developer00 Count $100/hour, give them a list of requirements and you'll get an estimate.
 
linkedlist is ideal for a queue or stack
 
what're peoples opinions on making arrays bigger than they need to be just so you have a lot of scope?
 
@notatroll Yes, absolutely.
 
3:16 PM
@notatroll I prefer lists over arrays tho
 
@Cap But you're gonna need a lot of agents for that to be an issue
 
@notatroll No, they're different tools for different tasks. Arrays (in C#) are simply preallocated sequences of items. They're not equivalent to lists because they don't have list/collection semantics (add/remove/etc)
 
arrays are special, which makes them bad, which is quite unfortunate
 
@RoelvanUden I'm not earning that much
 
so an array is a collection of constants?
 
3:16 PM
@CaptainObvious True, but again it doesn't hurt to make smaller decisions regarding speed like choosing HashSet over a List
 
or should be used for a collection of constants
 
array is a constant sized list
 
@notatroll if you think you'll be adding a lot of items, then yes, start it off with a large capacity
 
the items dont have to be constants
 
@notatroll An array is a sequence of memory the size of n*sizeof(t). :-)
 
3:17 PM
@notatroll what? no.
 
As a general purpose collection though which involves very little effort, Lists are some good shit
 
Indeed
I wholeheartedly recommend and endorse Lists
 
I always use lists, too much
 
When I read a file from disk, I might read it as a byte[] - I don't need it as a list because I don't need to add more bytes to it, or remove any. It's an array because that's a simple way to express the fact that it's a sequence of bytes.
 
I'm earning like 30€ per hour
 
3:18 PM
@Developer00 You're paid very well.
 
if what you're putting into the array is no bigger than 8 bytes, then you're literally just putting in 8 bytes * n where n is the size of the array. Anything bigger become pointers, which are 4 bytes * n
 
per day*
 
I'll say
 
What about using generics instead of arrays to fit an indeterminate quantity of items?
 
oh per day, that's not great
 
3:18 PM
are you a junior?
 
yep
 
actually probably 8 bytes for a 64 bit system
 
same
php junior developer
 
@Developer00 You must live in a very poor country.
 
@Developer00 My employer charges the final client 19€/h for me lul
 
3:18 PM
and im on more than 30 a day
 
italy ?
 
I see my salary as bad
no uk
 
I'm from Italy
But it's a small company
 
@Developer00 600 euro a month doesn't seem sufficient to live with.
 
I'm 19
 
3:19 PM
I'm 19 too
 
I'm living with my parents
 
The minimum wage is 1200 euro in the Netherlands.
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan how much effort would it be to convert a Stream to IEnumerable<Byte> ?
 
Which is double yours.
 
@Wietlol Quite easy.
 
3:20 PM
@RoelvanUden Net?
 
@RoelvanUden 30 €/h = 4800€ what am I missing?
 
they're pretty sleazy in Italy for what concerns programmer salaries
 
what exactly is IEnumerable
 
@HéctorÁlvarez 30 a day, not per hour.
 
an interface of what
 
3:20 PM
@Developer00 That shouldn't matter. A job shouldn't pay less just because you have fewer expenses.
 
Next year I'll earn like 1000 or 1200€ a month
 
@RoelvanUden oh, he said per hour.
 
@bradbury9 Gross.
 
But we don't know how many hours/days he's doing
@Developer00 Where do you live
 
3:20 PM
Italy
 
is it for 1d collections like list?
 
8h per day
like a normal job
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan I was offered the same position as here in the capital for 50% more salary
 
Normal varies per country and region.
 
@notatroll an IEnumerable<T> is basically a sequence of T
 
3:21 PM
But madrid is thousands of € more expensive
I still earn more here
 
in Italy programmers earns as much as metalworker
 
In Italy, you're either hired for your expertise and paid well for it, or you're a code monkey
there's not a lot of middle ground unfortunately
 
@HéctorÁlvarez That's different. Jobs can pay based on average cost of living. But not "oh, you're living with your parents, so we don't need to pay you enough tomake rent"
 
I'm a code monkey
 
mcdonalds workers earn more than me
 
3:23 PM
@Developer00 the good news is that changes with time :)
 
but I am low junior
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan oh yeah that's a cheap shot
 
but for a while it's just fighting the current and doing what everyone else doesn't want to do
 
It's more like until 29 years old you could be hired as an apprentice
for 3 to 5 years
 
I suppose the trick is also knowing when you're worth more
 
3:24 PM
... You could move countries.
 
And the wage starts at 1000€ per month
then rises slowly
@RoelvanUden I could
 
Apprentice wage in the UK is a joke
 
My employer was paying me minimum salary. At a certain point, I was the sole developer for a legacy project and working on that and three other projects
 
But I have no money
 
Meh, after you experience the joy of being flogged with a verbal whip every day you'll learn to put yourself on a high horse and be more cheeky.
 
3:25 PM
I asked for a raise and they wouldn't give me one, so I simply started looking for another job.
 
And I have my family and relationship here
 
It wasn't until after I got an offer for my new job that I realized how much I was missing
 
And I'm afraid to leave
 
I didn't give my employer a chance to make a counter offer either.
 
But you'll have money
 
3:25 PM
I would normally do that, but they had their chance when I asked for a raise
 
a year ago there used to be this social event called "Is it time to tell Héctor to get a new job?", my previous job took less than 4 months for me to quit.
 
@Neil sounds familiar to me
600€ a month to develop an app alone
 
And now it's all smoochies on me.
 
@Developer00 10 years at that lousy company getting paid minimum
 
How did you resist for so long and why
 
3:27 PM
When you get into a routine, it's hard to break that routine
Plus I got along well with everyone there
 
@Developer00 just spend your time as you wish, if they pay you so little they don't deserve your full attention. Grab some experience and move to the next company that will give you more money
 
you're right
@HéctorÁlvarez Where I live there's not much offer
 
@Neil Oh damn that sounds familiar
 
@Neil Same situation
 
I would have preferred to continue working there, but there was no way in hell that I was going to continue getting paid minimum
so as I see it, my employer chose for me
 
3:28 PM
I moved from my home city to find that job, because I couldn't find any back here. It took me 2 years to come back, and was lucky to find this position.
 
@HéctorÁlvarez things do get better :)
 
@HéctorÁlvarez wasn't it hard to leave?
 
I was told a few years ago I would have never been hired because I don't have a paper that says "Engineer". It wasn't until recently that this company started to realize that having a degree doesn't mean exclusivity.
 
Not the most efficient, because we're returning the bytes individually, which is usually not what we need bytes for.
@HéctorÁlvarez I have a piece of paper that says "Bachelor of Arts, History and Humanities". :)
 
3:29 PM
@HéctorÁlvarez University fees are too expensive
 
@HéctorÁlvarez Everytime I brought up getting a raise with my boss, my boss used that moment to bring up past mistakes I had made and how, if anything, I might even get fired..
First time that happened, it scared the shit out of me. The second time, I saw it for what it was. There was no third time.
 
@Developer00 It was, but it took me about 15 days to realize what I had was much better. It's a great step forward like the first time you have to do some blood analytics and you're afraid of the needle. It's nothing more than you being afraid of the unknown.
 
I wanted to attend an university here but it costs like 10k a year
 
when I gave them the news that I'd be leaving the company, one of my bosses actually said, "And for project X what are we going to do now?"
I had to keep from laughing honestly
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Oh yep I remember. And your podcast that slowly crawled from the very beginning explaining the intricacies of English language.
 
3:31 PM
Ofc for a company losing a programmer is such a cost
cause it needs to hire someone that has either to restart or understand the code
 
@Developer00 Same with me, I'm not an engineer by studies, I am by experience.
 
Well, I'm not even by experience
I've been working since july
 
@Neil My answer would be "Don't ask me, I'll be your competence in 2 weeks" and shrug it off.
If I don't like them I'd let go "If someone had given me a raise..."
 
I'm not interested in money though
 
I wanted to say the second, but I'm not confrontational
 
3:33 PM
atm at least
 
@Developer00 well of course you aren't you don't go from 0 to Avner in 2 months. You need to take small steps every day.
 
I just apologized for the inconvenience and said I'd try to train someone
 
@Neil JK it's better to keep secrecy, I learned the hard way.
 
You should be interested in money. Not saying your goal should be money, but you should at least be paid honestly for your worth. If you're not, move.
 
@HéctorÁlvarez ouch
 
3:34 PM
And no, having a "super cool project" does not make up for bad finances.
 
this ^
work is a contract. Don't let any company propaganda tell you otherwise.
 
@RoelvanUden But I'm not doing much with this project
I mean
 
You don't work for a good work environment or for the perks. You ultimately work for the money, so make sure you get paid your value.
nobody else will ensure that for you
 
I would like to work with a team of nice, reasonable programmers who are interested in putting out good code, working for an organization that pays competitively, treats us with respect and isn't actively making the world a worse place. Is that too much to ask?
 
It would make sense if I was really able to do things
But since is all new to me
It make sense that I'm paid that low
 
3:36 PM
@Hypersapien Progressive technologies, good work environment, good pay. Pick two.
 
Jup. You're exchanging your time and skills for money. That's it. It's a business transaction. Nothing more. Also, your colleagues aren't your "family". If they're cool, that's great, but don't let the corporate bullshit brainwash you into thinking your workplace is more than what it really is.
'Tis a place to exchange time+skills->money.
 
@Neil Well, at the moment I'm the only programmer working for this company, so I can use whatever technology I want.
 
I do my 8 hours and I leave. If something comes up, I don't mind sticking around and getting it done if it is urgent, but that should not be the norm.
 
^ This, so, so, much. Your own time should be your own time as much as possible.
 
I wanted to switch my hours around so I could get off at 3:30 on fridays. My boss had no problem with it.
 
3:38 PM
@Hypersapien well that's certainly its own advantage
 
Has disadvantages, too
 
well you can't learn from someone else's code
 
oh boy; somebody thinking of quitting their job?
 
Anyone else have a "The last message was posted 1 hour ago." message stuck at the bottom of the feed?
 
can't say that I do
 
3:39 PM
can't say that I do
 
didja try refreshing?
 
I did just now and it's gone. Weird.
 
@Hypersapien You know something? There's a problem with that, which is making one self replaceable by making good code that everyone can read and maintain is against your needs. For a major company it might mean you're stuck doing something forever and be the only one that understand it until you're replaced. For a small company nobody knows what you're doing and your gibberish hieroglyphs are arcane knowledge that only the most proficient programmer in the company knows (a.k.a. you)
 
@Wietlol So I was playing around with the kotlin builders, and I tried to use map on a collection to create my output, but the result of that was just ignored. Do I just need to use for loops, or is there a way to dump it?
 
3:47 PM
@Neil Also this. I asked around and... to sum it up, the person next to me has just collected his first dragon during the Sylvan elf campaign.
Meanwhile on the large screen his automation stuff is running and he's checking like a chameleon with 1 eye on each screen
 
@Developer00 Code monkeys in Italy are cheap. With zero laboral experience I have seen 73€/day
 
@HéctorÁlvarez sylvan elf campaign?
@bradbury9 most laymen in italy regard programming jobs as little more than typing the code out
as if programming were like data entry or something
 
@HéctorÁlvarez I've never played that game you know
 
Well it's about the best turn-based strategy genre out there
take it like Civilization games, but you move heroes around that lead armies. Armies are placed in stacks in a chessboard and you take turns to fight
Each monster type has a different ability, so you can mix as you like, and each race has their own perks
 
3:51 PM
@HéctorÁlvarez Ever play dominions?
 
@JonathonChase not sure... doesn't ring a bell
 
@HéctorÁlvarez illwinter.com/dom5
Sounds like it would be up your alley. Don't really have direct troop control though.
 
I saw a little video, I don't think that's my kind of game
 
Age of Wonders?
 
yeee I have 2 and 3
 
3:53 PM
You'd probably like Endless Legend
 
Also wanted to buy planetfall but I spent 18 hours in a single game and went to bed next day at 11am, and thought I wouldn't try it because my health was at stake
 
That's always a risk with me and Civ
 
"one more turn"
 
Or especially EU 4
"one more war"
 
I will say however, I won by eradicating life in the planet through secret weapon final research
 
3:54 PM
@HéctorÁlvarez sounds like something I might like
 
It's very chill, perfect game to play while working. You can take turns at your own pace
 
@HéctorÁlvarez don't tempt me, man!
 
I suggest you get the 7th one. HOMM3 is a cult game, great for the nostalgic players
same as 5
7 has all the QOL upgrades and it's also awesome. Bad reception however because on release it was full of bugs, literally unplayable.
But now it's golden
I got HOMM7 with all the DLCs for about 12€ during a Steam sale
 

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