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You know ignoring a troll is far more effective than making them infamous. You know what you get when you make trolls infamous? Trump as president
 
12:59 AM
Incorrect fetch return value – #78419
 
1:25 AM
hey team, those who use psalm, what would be the right way to satisfy the linter in this example psalm.dev/r/9503dd7d98
would I need an assertion like

`Assert::allString($ks); /** @var string[] $ks */`
 
@zerkms that looks like a bug...
 
why?
keys() returns array<array-key, mixed> type
 
I can't see why it would have a limitation on what it says it's complaining about (assigning to $k) because there doesn't seem to be any restriction on it.
 
it's totallyTyped="true"
 
> totallyTyped
 
Sounds like a late '80s skate dude....
 
lol
 
psalm.dev/r/70155ef1fd - are you allowed to add a return docblock?
 
but indeed, even in totallyTyped it might have been slightly more intelligent
nope, that code belongs to symfony
and they don't like to change annotations even if the community wins
 
psalm.dev/r/b7c18f4963 - you can use a temp var?
 
1:41 AM
that's what I'm doing
```
$cookiesKeys = $request->cookies->keys();

Assert::allString($cookiesKeys); /** @var string[] $cookiesKeys */

foreach ($cookiesKeys as $cookie) {
...
}
```
this just reminds me that I promised to help sir @Ocramius with his webmozart/assert+psalm PR (which I half-completed)
 
2:06 AM
 
2:54 AM
after thinking a bit more - it becomes more apparent that mixed in php should be the same as unknown in typescript. While psalm treats the former much more strictly (to a degree that makes coding painful)
 
 
1 hour later…
4:22 AM
morns
 
4:51 AM
\o
 
Wes
The process C:\WINDOWS\System32\svchost.exe (xxxxxxxx) has initiated the restart of computer xxxxxxxx on behalf of user NT AUTHORITY\SYSTEM for the following reason: Operating System: Service pack (Planned)
Reason Code: 0x80020010
Shutdown Type: restart
windows rebooted like i wasn't using it
just because they installed some update
11 hours ago, by Wes
windows is nice :B
windows is a turd
 
Wes
5:05 AM
Installation Started: Windows has started installing the following update: Candy Crush Saga
so i lost what i was doing because of fucking candy crush
 
5:16 AM
Somebody who knows/works on PHPDBG might be interested in github.com/sebastianbergmann/phpunit/issues/…
 
@Wes I think the more pertinent question is why do you have candy crush in the first place
 
Wes
because it's preinstalled?
 
Ahh bloatware
 
Wes
i haven't done the "debloat windows 10" thingy yet on this computer
 
You know I used to think Windows was bad until I saw some of the newer Android phones
Talk about bloatwarr
 
Wes
5:33 AM
and unlike windows you can't remove that stuff
 
That's not android -- that's the carrier's fault.
 
5:55 AM
@SebastianBergmann wha... okay, thanks for linking.
@Wes I hope you have something reasonable like ... a windows pro license?
 
Wes
yes
 
@Wes well, then you should be able to disable forced restarts
 
Wes
they removed the option apparently
they suggest to leave a video open to prevent briefly unattended windows to restart automatically
insane lol
 
@Wes not in pro. At least I disabled that.
 
Wes
tell me where the option is :P they've removed it
 
6:00 AM
@Wes in gpedit.msc if I recall correctly, I googled it back then
 
morngins
 
6:47 AM
o/
 
@bwoebi Sorry :-)
 
7:01 AM
hey guys I am not able to search anything on this engbookspdf.com website in firefox. Can anyone tell why ? No input field is working
 
7:13 AM
@johnsmith they implement a custom search engine from expertrec.com. I'm pretty sure that is a spammer so they probably don't know how to write javascript and created a onfocus that returns false.
 
@Sjon But we can't enter name and email also in "follow by email"
I don't think its that custom search engine problem
 
7:27 AM
@Sjon What do you think ?
 
@johnsmith I think I don't really care :) Their javascript is broken - maybe someone in the javascript room will want to look at it. Is it your site?
 
@johnsmith My professional opinion is that pirate sites are not what they used to
 
;)
not my website
 
fwiw that search box is called dummy search
That might be a hint
 
I think its the website problem because I can go to that search box using tab from keyboard
 
7:31 AM
Yes they block it either on purpose or by mistake
It's just a shitty site
 
yeah
works on chrome breaks on firefox
I am actually not interested in the website but in that custom search engine it uses
 
lol, why? Have a look at blog.expertrec.com/voice-search-extension-for-mozilla-firefox - I'm pretty sure they are just SEO spammers
 
@johnsmith @Sjon already gave you that
 
although I'm definitely gonna watch that embedded Sci-Fi Film - but that's just because it's friday
 
haha
 
7:38 AM
What's with all those search as a service thing anyway I see popping up everywhere?
Aren't all their "state-of-the-art-ai-driven-self-repairing-skynet" things all just a front for ES?
 
I think what they do is provide search for your website with feature to control your search results
 
Yes so a service with ES behind it :P
 
Google used to provide this service but stopped it last year but did not give access to boost your products in results
 
mornin'
 
@PeeHaa Yeah or maybe lucene
 
7:44 AM
Are people still using solr nowadays?
 
yeah
 
Assumed you mean that
afaik es still uses lucene
 
yeah es is wrapper around lucene
but I think you get more power over your search using solr/lucene
 
/me still hopes we can implement es at some point for php /cc @salathe
 
you want ES integration in PHP?
 
7:57 AM
@Sjon I want the manual to have a non fucking terrible search :)
 
aha, well maintaining an es cluster is non-trivial, especially doing upgrades
 
updates
pfffftt
:P
 
well, ES did "fix" b/c issues - they pretty much only release majors which means you need to reindex everything
believe me, that's no fun with terabytes of indexes
 
satiate to satisfy (a need, a desire, etc.) fully or to excess
 
@Sjon haha same problem here, we run two clusters in parallel with double writes for 30 days when upgrading :)
 
8:06 AM
lol
 
@PeeHaa we'd probably want to farm that out to a third-party and just feed the documents to be indexed to them
 
@salathe All I have seen suck though
 
lower your expectations :)
 
:P
 
indexing the manual with solr or elasticsearch is a no brainer though, its just a few thousand documents. the complete reindex shouldn't take longer than a few minutes, so it doesn't matter how ES gets upgraded, just have an hour downtime of the search whatever
 
8:09 AM
@beberlei What do you use e/s for? For generic system logging it's quite useful. I also use it for access-logs but mainly because of Kibana visualizations - I'd prefer a pg database for that if I'd get the same dashboard working on it
 
@Sjon its the primary store for monitoring data in Tideways and the secondary index for trace/profiling snapshot data
 
@beberlei aha. I find the genericness of e/s searching both a blessing and a curse. It's simple to get something up and running - but it takes serious amounts of resources to keep it running. You never have enough memory / cpu when searching
 
@Sjon yeah, and you get sucked into really powerful features that no other database that might be more effecient can actually do :-) so you are stuck
i think it works ok for us right now, monitoring dat ahas the benefit of being 99,9% write, few reads. and writes ES is very good at regardless of what you do ;)
but we are at the 5th iteration of how we use ES at least, it changes every year to cope with the growth. plus as a self funded company, the ES cluster is already our highest expense ;)
(highest non salary expense i should add)
 
yeah. Once you start calculating how much storage/memory/cpu you'd really need if everything was stored efficiently you could throw away ~ 80% of your machines
but that takes a lot of time to build - and you'd gain little in the short term
 
what a shit show
 
8:19 AM
i suppose at scale you always have problems with the database :)
 
@Derick ?
 
@Sjon how large is your cluster? ours is at a non webscale 150 GB at the moment. purposefully designed the system to avoid storing stuff nobody needs ;)
 
@beberlei tbh I like creating big redundant data clusters. But e/s annoys me often. Nodes explode due to needing too much heap, upgrades take too much time
@beberlei I used to have close to 1 TB of access logs, but decided to use GDPR as an excuse to trim it. It was also a lot of write-once-read-not-so-much
 
we only have this one cluster, and our business depends on it, so a few weeks a year of work on it is fine for me ;-) we haven't had heap problems for a long time though after re-architecturing
we don't use ES aggregates for example, data is already aggregated and then merged in PHP
ES aggregates tend to explode
 
@PeeHaa the p++ email from zeev, and the accompanying DMs
 
8:24 AM
I only use e/s for meta purposes. For our actual business we build our own search indexer
 
Guessed as much :-)
 
@Derick someone has a "bord voor z'n kop" - if you can't differentiate between vandalizing and calling it "surgically fixing errors"
 
yeah, well. Just remember that the next time one of you is going to get shit on :D
 
I will just blame you regardless :P
 
why not try 3rd party searches on trial
 
8:30 AM
Or @JoeWatkins
 
@Derick I think you should take all the "No" votes as confirmation you did nothing wrong and successfully clarified there is little interest in Z's proposal
 
Right, but he was battering me on twitter DMs yesterday once he found out his "edits" had been reverted.
 
block user
:D
 
@Derick since he added himself as "Auditor" he probably also felt he was doing something that's not normally being done
he felt it was justified - most people disagree. If he wants an informal vote in his own words he should create it and let people vote on it
 
I'm going to weed the garden. bbl
 
8:35 AM
not the best day for that weather-wise, up north anyway
moin
 
hey christus
 
@DaveRandom ditto further north, typical summer's day up here :P
 
@Sjon how ironic that you're mentioning this ... That's what I'm doing right now, testing an ES upgrade on our staging env. Though couldn't see any major complications with the rolling upgrade now, a few settings here and there and it was fine, no downtime, just a bit slower.
 
@bwoebi ah, doing 6 > 7 as well?
 
@PeeHaa you actually search? :-D I usually just type php.net/<function_name>
@Sjon from 6.0.1 to 6.8.2 now, next up is 6.8.2 to 7.3
 
8:44 AM
@bwoebi ah. Well for newish indexes everything is usually smooth but I've taken a few old indexes through multiple upgrades (with reindexes) now that felt pretty useless
 
@bwoebi I am not always just searching for functions
 
@Derick twenty years ago I would have suggested the opposite
 
@PeeHaa well, php.net/<extname/classname> works just as well
 
I know
 
@Sjon yeah, I'm not tasked with the upgrade from 2.x (thankfully I guess)
 
8:46 AM
As does class.method
 
yea
so what else are you searching for?
 
Either full text (which does a somewhat broken google custom search thing) or sometimes when mis typing something or not knowing exactly what I want (hance search and not url)
Regarding misstyping I am pretty sure it does levenshtein + random_int(0, 99) - random_int(0, 99)
* day of the month
divided by timestamp
@JoeWatkins wake up. I need you
 
@salathe this is the wettest summer I can remember for years
 
@DaveRandom hot
 
It's almost as if climate change is actually a thing. Who'da thunk it.
 
8:51 AM
@PeeHaa apart from a single week in July it wasn't really too hot
 
@PeeHaa something something your mother
the pieces are all there, cba coming up with an actual insult, I'm sure you can do the legwork yourself
 
You are a dairy farmer
5
 
@bwoebi that whooshing sound you heard above your head was the joke. Such as it was.
 
@DaveRandom Yeah, and then it returned and hit me :-P
 
> I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. - Douglas Adams
 
y u no onebox?? :-/
 
No idea
 
!!blame @balpha
 
8:58 AM
yep
 
9:39 AM
@PeeHaa I'm here, ish
 
@JoeWatkins What should I do with this bad boy github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/reflection/tests/…?
Remove? Rewrite? Something else?
 
remove it, no longer applicable
 
\o/
tnx.Now go back to your pool
 
poo being the operative word
 
9:54 AM
preg_match failed with Unicode character scripts – #78420
 
@PeeHaa I'm not pooling, I'm doing real life things ...
 
Sorry for you
 
yeah it sucks pretty hard
 
10:19 AM
Extension crash when no link identifier is given – #78421
 
Regarding Zeev's tweet (twitter.com/zeevs/status/1162054595461484544) and its replies: Why are people surprised to find out a programming language is used by white supremacists? I mean, it's unlikely they'd be using Whitespace.
 
Moin \o
!!friday
 
@webmaster777 That fact is not surprising obviously
Nobody is surprised in that thread either
People just all agree the sender can fuck off
hey @Sean
 
@webmaster777 I want to believe that's just a stupid troll / bad joke.
Nvm, just googled him.
 
10:27 AM
@Sean Well, that were my first thoughts, until I read who sent that shit. I think, if it were satire, it would have been next level stuff. However, it turns out this is actually the way some people apply race to anything.
 
> However, it turns out this is actually the way some people apply race to anything.
Now you are the one acting surprised :P
 
@PeeHaa Well, yeah I was surprised by the combination of actual full sentences and this kind of thinking.
 
:D
 
11:04 AM
posted on August 16, 2019

I've had a big forehead all my life. It's somewhere around 40% of my body mass, and I think it lets me get away with a lot more than I should. It's not an embarrassing feature to have, but it is something that stands out. In certain lighting, my large brow isn't always flattering. Yet once I'm bathed in the brilliant light of a computer, I immediately look deep in concentration. I may not

 
Wes
@Sean that guy is a self proclaimed troll so i wouldn't give him attention
 
@NikiC Per your API change, I realised that Xdebug has:
derick@singlemalt:~/dev/php/xdebug-xdebug$ grep -r VISITED *.[ch]
xdebug_code_coverage.c:		if (!(ce->ce_flags & ZEND_XDEBUG_VISITED)) {
xdebug_code_coverage.c:			ce->ce_flags |= ZEND_XDEBUG_VISITED;
xdebug_private.h:#define ZEND_XDEBUG_VISITED 0x10000000
Is there a safer way of doing that?
 
1 hour ago, by DaveRandom
poo being the operative word
 
@Derick Hashtable
Keep in mind that in 7.4 with opcache the class might be immutable
 
with what as index?
 
11:19 AM
@Derick class entry pointer
 
They're not reused for user land classes?
 
@Derick I mean just (uintptr_t) ce
That works independent of user/internal
 
yes, I figured you meant that, but that's a random memory location? Is it guaranteed they're not reused for further/later newly defined classes?
 
@Derick Assuming we're talking about a single request, classes are never removed, so they can't be reused
 
yes, a single request. OK. I'll make sure to fix that then :-)
And also good that I hadn't had bumped the API number yet
 
11:55 AM
@Derick I think it would be appropriate to reply to him that you'll only discuss internal matters through internals, and then at some point start forwarding his messages to internals, and replying to them there.
 
@Danack remind me never to try to out-passive-aggressive you
(not that I disagree)
 
offtopic, and something more appropriate for a conversation in the pub, I'm beginning to think I've had to deal with more than my fair share of shitty people in my life, as I've had to learn all these tips from non-online things.
 
12:09 PM
no it's just that people are universally awful
at least there's an underlying thread of consistency
 
user image
6
 
12:29 PM
@DaveRandom are you protected against knobattack.com ?
 
1:14 PM
Morning
 
Probably obvious answer, but if I want to add a new declare statement I must add it to the VM, right? Or is there a way not to?
 
1:27 PM
@PeeHaa PeeCow™
also o/
 
Tolkien was a good movie.
 
1:45 PM
@NikiC That got me thinking; is it still safe to replace pointers in the function table? Like if I wanted to replace pdo::exec with one that does some logging?
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier that's half of my name :)
 
@LeviMorrison For internal classes that should still be safe
 
Thanks!
 
openssl_random_pseudo_bytes() -> Segmentation fault – #78422
 
1:50 PM
I'm not an English native speaker. Do the word "request" by itself conceive the meaning of a verb, or should I prepend with "do"? Example: public function request() or public function do_request()?
Example:
$provider = API_Request::provider()
		       ->filter_by( Provider_API::ProviderName, 'foo' )
		       ->filter_by( Provider_API::ProviderCity, 'bar' )
		       ->request();
 
@LucasBustamante Request can be a verb, yes.
 
@LucasBustamante it's both a verb and noun. But in the context of a builder like that it would be clear what it meant.
I'd always avoid using 'do' in names, as that's too generic to be useful, so things like 'process', 'perform', 'create', 'send' that make the action more clear.
 
makes sense
perhaps send_request(), since it's an expensive operation that can take a few seconds
purposefully add some weight to the method name to conceive it's expensive
 
yep, that makes it clear there is some network activity.
 
thanks :)
 
2:01 PM
Well, well, I've just requested my first official IANA port number :-)
@LucasBustamante Make the name bold then ;-)
 
2:52 PM
@Derick what for?
 
3:15 PM
@Danack I can't figure out a way to check :-/
although my entire life and all interactions with other people seems like one massive knob attack, so mitigating that particular issue won't actually meaningfully affect anything
 
3:32 PM
@DaveRandom Quit being such a knob. =p
 
I assume the guy in charge of the research team is known as KNOB head
 
Chief Knob Officer
 
if you are a victim then you have been KNOBed
and the person performing/controlling the exploit is a KNOB jockey
 
Knob Knocker
 
the infosec peeps really need to stop with the stupid names, it makes people think it's a joke story and then no-one cares
logjam being the other one that stick in my mind there
I sometimes wonder whether people sit on disclosures for a while, just until they've come up with a suitably jokey name
 
3:46 PM
I want to interface the constructor of a class because I expect that class to receive a certain parameter when built. But I also don't want to limit the constructor, because of DI and stuff.
Any ideas?
 
you don't interface constructors because you can't new an interface
rather you use factories
so make an interface for the factory
what I mean by that is, the only time the ctor is invoked is by the new operator, and the interface is irrelevant at that point
and don't do stuff like $class = Foo::class; $obj = new $class; please ;-)
urgh whatever, stupid fingers
 
even though I understand interfaces are meant to define API contracts between classes, I think that telling how a object should be built is a valid API contract
 
why? you can't instantiate a class unless it's concrete
which means the code that instantiates it is inherently coupled to the concrete class
so what purpose does the interface serve, other than pointlessly limiting things?
 
If you need to define a constructor then you are defining an implementation
DI works even with concrete implementation
Just less flexible
 
@Girgias yes that's a much more concise way of saying it
an interface defines the way something behaves, including the constructor in that would mean that the interface is dictating how it must accomplish that behaviour
 
3:54 PM
:p
 
which is like the opposite of the point of an interface
 
Hmm, perhaps I could use a static method, then
 
What would be the best way to test that a declare statement only affects the current file ?
 
@LucasBustamante you could, but you should just use a factory instead...
 
Including multiple ones and examining the output ?
@LucasBustamante I'd go the factory route too
 
3:57 PM
there's nothing wrong with interface ArgBasedFooFactory { function makeFoo(Arg $arg): Foo; }
because it doesn't arbitrarily prevent you from using Foo in a different way somewhere else
 
4:08 PM
Thanks guys, I still don't quite get it, but I'll try to come up with something
 
@bwoebi DBGp
 
 
1 hour later…
5:14 PM
:-D
 
 
1 hour later…
6:16 PM
@JoeWatkins I er, have no weight about anything, but support that...
@DaveRandom what's wrong with hinting folks to do something eg interface BuildsWithFoo { public __construct(Foo $foo); }
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier because it's not enforced...
 
it is indeed not...
not sure, I think I made something like that in the past. not sure what was my thinking, or if I thought at all.
 
I've done it before, but with a static factory method
interface BuildWithFoo {
    public static function buildWithFoo(Foo $foo): self;
}

function load(string $className): BuildWithFoo {
    if (!is_a($className, BuildWithFoo::class, true)) {
        throw ...;
    }
    return $className::buildWithFoo($this->foo);
}
 
hmmm, that's interesting, thanks for the example
 
 
1 hour later…
7:57 PM
Huh, interesting bin2hex doesn't emit a warning in case it fails but hex2bin does
 
8:30 PM
How can bin2hex fail?
 
Yeah
I'm trying to figure out if it actually can
Because otherwise there is a "useless" RETURN_FALSE;
 
hex2bin can fail if the hex string is invalid, but bin2hex has no such case as any binary string is considered valid input.
 
So I suppose the check and RETURN_FALSE can just be removed from source?
 
What is the check?
If the arg isn't a string?
 
8:46 PM
result = php_bin2hex((unsigned char *)ZSTR_VAL(data), ZSTR_LEN(data));
if (!result) {
RETURN_FALSE;
}
And if the argument is not a string (or can't be converted to) ZPP takes care of it and a Type Error is thrown
 
Well, what about the implementation of php_bin2hex?
What about memory allocation failure? (Though that may break execution anyway, not sure the mechanics there with longjump)
 
php_bin2hex returns a zend_string
Well no idea for memory allocation failure
But I can't seem to trigger the false return
 
On mobile, and mobile chrome chokes on lxr
 
/* {{{ php_bin2hex
*/
static zend_string *php_bin2hex(const unsigned char *old, const size_t oldlen)
{
zend_string *result;
size_t i, j;

result = zend_string_safe_alloc(oldlen, 2 * sizeof(char), 0, 0);

for (i = j = 0; i < oldlen; i++) {
ZSTR_VAL(result)[j++] = hexconvtab[old[i] >> 4];
ZSTR_VAL(result)[j++] = hexconvtab[old[i] & 15];
}
ZSTR_VAL(result)[j] = '\0';

return result;
}
/* }}} */
 
9:16 PM
Well, considering there's no check on result there, I don't think the wrapping function could ever fail without a segfault
So seems reasonable to me
 
Well made a PR for master
 
9:52 PM
@Girgias do you have commit access?
 
No I don't
Not sure why I would as I haven't done anything major ^^
 
Ah, but you do have a php.net account
 
I do yeah, because of doc karma
 
@Girgias I've granted you karma for php-src
 
Oh, thanks
 
9:58 PM
Might take a while to propagate, and you'll have to add an ssh key
 
What's the process to commit onto it? Get reviewed on GitHub and then what?
Oh and for converting warnings to ErrorException, I think a lot of them will make it possible to add return types to more functions
 
@Girgias wiki.php.net/vcs/gitworkflow and wiki.php.net/vcs/gitfaq have some info about how the git stuff works ... the merge workflow is a bit ugly, if you are committing to release branches
@Girgias yes, that's the purpose :) It's sometimes hard to judge what can be safely converted (safely as in: nobody is likely to complain)
Here is a pretty clear cut case recently: github.com/php/php-src/commit/…
Basically if it's a manual type check, it's pretty much always fine to convert it to TypeError
 
And if it's an argument check? Because most of what I'm looking at in ext/standard/string.c is invalid arguments
Offset not in string, invalid hex value, etc.
 
@Girgias Hard to say in general. Offset not in string is probably a bit problematic (sometimes this is not considered a "real" error and may not even throw a warning, depends on the function)
Here is an example that I think can be fairly safely turned into Error: github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/standard/string.c#L2197
 
@NikiC if it already emits a Warning ?
 
10:06 PM
For invalid hex, I would say no: It could be that the user parses hex from an unknown source, in which case he might actually want to check the hex2bin return value
 
Well I'll go through the string.c file and make a PR so that you, or someone else can review
Okay, makes sense
Now, should my throw_legacy_failure declare work on these cases and not just I/O?
 
@Girgias To start with, I'd recommend sticking to a) type errors (github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/standard/string.c#L3313), b) invalid mode/flag values (github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/standard/string.c#L5424) and c) non-negative/non-empty errors (github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/standard/string.c#L6117)
@Girgias It would probably make sense for it to apply to everything that remains a warning
I.e. a general promotion of warning to exception?
 
Gocha
Probably yeah that's the idea
 
I'm assuming you want to annotate all the warnings with the correct exception type to throw?
 
Also I don't know why I couldn't make my declare statement using the declarables struct in CG(file_context), any idea why?
That would be probably a good idea
 
10:13 PM
We already have a mechanism for converting warnings to exceptions in general (zend_error_handling or something like that)
 
well I suppose it's going to be more deep diving into the codebase
 
@Girgias it only lives during compilation. For what you want, you need a flag on the op_array, the same way that strict_types works
 
Oh okay, then how/why does my current way of doing it work?
 
@Girgias because you're leaking a global :)
 
Oh ...
 
10:15 PM
It's going to apply to all code, not just the current file
 
shait
Thought so, so I suppose my multiple declare test is also bogus
@NikiC so there is the TypeError one for mismatched types and what should the Invalid mode/flags and non-negative/non-empty errors throw ?
Does the dirname() level arg fall into the non-negative category? As it needs to be 1 or greater.
 
11:22 PM
@Girgias congrats on commit access :D
 
Thanks :D
Not sure I will use it much, this is pretty scary D:
Gosh some of the tests are such a pain to fix :(
 
is there a way to check if terminal supports colors? (I don't have the luxury of installing exts)?
 
11:58 PM
I don't think so @Ghostff
 
Wes
> I'm afraid that parentElement isn't supported by modern-day browsers such as Netscape Navigator or IE 4. Don't use. – gilbert-v Dec 12 '18 at 17:35
 
ODBC functions work without extension=odbc – #78423
 

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