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12:46 AM
Morning
O/
 
V.7
1:05 AM
o/
 
 
1 hour later…
mr5
2:13 AM
o/
\o
\o/
M
C
A
 
mr5
2:47 AM
Solved my problem last Friday: gist.github.com/mr5z/…
 
mr5
3:11 AM
Can I use MetaDataToken as a Type identifier?
as of now, I am using the typeof(T).Fullname to identify 2 types and concatenate them to finally be used as a key in Dictionary<K,V>
 
 
4 hours later…
7:06 AM
Morning
 
good morning
@mr5 Why not use the type itself as the key?
var dictionary = new Dictionary<(Type,Type), object>();
Use a value tuple as the key, since value tuples are implicitly structurally equatable.
And Type objects are singletons, so typeof(int) == typeof(int) is true.
> The system will always provide the derived class RuntimeType. In reflection, all classes beginning with the word Runtime are created only once per object in the system and support comparison operations.
and
> A Type object that represents a type is unique; that is, two Type object references refer to the same object if and only if they represent the same type. This allows for comparison of Type objects using reference equality.
 
mr5
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan is this the way to create the key: (typeof(TSource), typeof(TDestination))?
Hmm, I'm wondering how is the tuple will handle the HashCode and Equal method
 
7:28 AM
@mr5 Yeah, that's the easiest way.
> Tuples have value semantic: (1,2).Equals((a: 1, b: 2)) and (1,2).GetHashCode() == (1,2).GetHashCode() are both true.
ValueTuple's GetHashCode implemention applies a deterministic aggregation of the hashcodes of its items.
internal static class HashHelpers
  {
    public static int Combine(int h1, int h2)
    {
      return (int) ((uint) (h1 << 5) | (uint) h1 >> 27) + h1 ^ h2;
    }
  }
 
mr5
it looks hackish
What about reference type tuples?
 
I'm assuming it's mathematically sound. I don't grok the math.
ValueTuples can contain reference types, it's not a problem.
 
Gooood moorniiiiing CeeeeShaarp! Have you welcomed any newly hired colleagues lately?
 
@Squirrelkiller I will next week, when a new dev comes on the team.
She's not newly hired, though, just moving into the project.
 
Nice, so she already knows her way around the company.
 
7:33 AM
Well, yes and no.
I'm employed by company A, but for the past year have been part of a project in company B. She's been at company A for a while, but now she's joining us at the Company B project.
 
mr5
Why you people come in group?
 
Ah, you're doing external development right now?
 
mr5
It seems to me like you guys are working on the same company lol
 
damn dusts...
 
We're likely a few thousand kilometers apart
 
7:36 AM
@Squirrelkiller I always do. My company (Company A) does very little in-house development. 90% of what we do is consulting/contracting work.
 
I've made this app to check dusts
 
I see
 
that hurts my conditions.
 
That looks about %90-95 more Korean than I can understand.
 
:(
 
mr5
7:36 AM
@Arphile what does it say?
 
SUch a company wanted me to wor kfor them too, but I'm not in a place where I can easily hop cities every few months right now.
 
@Squirrelkiller Well, I live in Tel-Aviv, and about 90% of Israeli tech companies are in Tel-Aviv or its surrounding cities.
 
it said my location, current temp and dust(pm2.5/pm1.0)
 
Lol ok definitely the best Israeli city for a dev to work in :D
 
My project for the past year is in Hertzliya, though, which is a city 10 minutes north of Tel-Aviv, or 40 minutes in morning commute traffic. :-\
 
7:38 AM
0~30 means good,
31~80 means not good but I can walk outside,
81~150 means it'll ruin my health,
151~ means this is really bad idea to go outside.
this dusts can causes cancer.
 
@Arphile What are the two dust values? Seems like there's only one symbol diffrence between them.
 
미세먼지 is pm2.5
초미세먼지 is pm1.0
초미세먼지 is more smaller than 미세먼지
 
mr5
@Arphile can it detect pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis?
 
Why 1.0 is longer than 2.5
 
Or like 20 minutes with a bike?
 
초 means more
 
Yeah, that doesn't look good.
 
I'm dying.
 
mr5
it seems very suited to used in Middle east countries where the dust storms usually happens\
 
4°? It doesnt matter anyway, I wont going outside when this temperature.
 
7:41 AM
so, 2 days ago, it was -6
X(
 
Good morning.
 
1weeks ago, it was -14
G'Morning
 
hola, Roel.
Same site puts Tel-Aviv's AQI at 186, which is also bad, but I wonder if it's because of last night's very dusty winds.
Different sites show different measurements, from 12 to 514, less than a kilometer apart. I'll remain somewhat skeptical of this metric, then.
 
mr5
what's up with the dust in your area?
 
ohayou
 
7:49 AM
*shrug*. There was a lot of wind and little rain in the last couple of days. This morning I saw my windshield was very dusty. Happens.
 
I check dusts on nullschool.
 
Most of urban Israel seems to be around 160-180 ("unhealthy") except for Haifa, a city with a large petrochemical industrial area, where it's >400.
 
mr5
@Arphile what is happening there?
 
mr5
Is the orange parts dust?
 
7:51 AM
yup.
commonly, it happened during the spring, but weather has been changed.
and an effect of China's policy.
 
Hola Roel o/
 
O/
Sydney is really clean today :(
 
How do they measured the pm2.5 with satellite?
 
mr5
Seems like the wind is going back and forth from east to west and scatters along different countries
 
7:54 AM
they said they use this ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_depth )
 
There was a lot of wind here last night
Kept making this weird noise passing through the guardrails of our balcony
after 4 o'clock this morning, I couldn't get back to sleep
It didn't really help that my wife kept asking me if we were safe in a building that high with all that wind
don't think we were in danger for a moment, she's just naturally paranoid. The wind wasn't that bad
 
Should've taken the chance and said "Well there's only a 40% chance that we'll die in our sleep with this wind, go right back to sleep."
 
lol... goverment recommand to wear a mask during outside.
 
@RoelvanUden I didn't get any sleep anyway, so had I known, would have been totally worth it
"Relax, honey.. at best there's like what.. 1 in 10 chance of dying? That's way better than a coin flip.. geez.."
 
Ahahahah yes :-D
 
8:12 AM
Oh my
.CallTheFactoryMethodToGetTheValue
 
mr5
Let's support generics and generic type parameters in aliases
 
@mr5 That proposal's been there for a while.
 
mr5
I have been needed that syntax lately
 
I would be nice to be a bit more concise, but I don't feel I would get a lot of the syntax.
 
morn
 
8:26 AM
ing
 
hel
nvm
 
morning all
 
morn
 
ing
hey squirrelguy
 
8:42 AM
Holá
 
how do you guys think that straw has no hole/ 1 hole / 2 holes?
 
Haven't we done the straw thing already a while back? Or maybe it wasn't here.
Oh, no, I think it was on twitter.
 
Mathematically ( cuz of my Major in uni ) I think it has just one hole.
 
mr5
What is that straw thing?
Is it the strawman argument?
 
Topologically speaking it's just one hole, yes, but if, say, you plugged one end of the straw - does it have a hole? If you plug one end and then cut open a hole on the side - mathemtically, it will still only have one hole, but non-mathemtically, you've obviously closed one hole and opened another while leaving a different one intact.
We had a discussion about it on twitter a couple of months ago - about how for most non-mathematicians, a donut has 1 hole and a straw has 2 holes, even though they're topologically identical.
My stance was that in a donut, the hole is a specific and easy to see thing. It's a hole. It's the hole.
 
8:54 AM
if you cut a net, you're effectively reducing the number of holes, not increasing them
 
For a straw, the "hole" is the entire length of the straw, so we don't intuitively grasp it as as a hole, because we think of it as "the inside", not "the hole".
 
well does it matter that it's cylindrical in shape? is it enough that it has an entrance and an exit and it's "one hole"?
 
I happened to be around donuts and straws when the discussion took place, which resulted in this: twitter.com/lisardggY/status/954272801417986048
 
so it depends on view.
:(
 
As long as I can drink with it I'm fine
 
9:00 AM
@Arphile It depends on context.
If you're doing mathematical topography, then a straw has one hole. If you're trying drink out of one, it makes sense to talk about two different holes.
Just like a tomato.
If you're talking about biological classifications, it makes sense to talk about a tomato as a fruit. If you're making fruit salad, it does not.
 
Knowledge means knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not using a tomato in a fruit salad.
 
Greater knowledge means knowing that "fruit" is a contextual definition.
 
I still think that's just "normal" knowledge
what prevents you from using a tomato in a fruit salad amounts to experience, not the understanding that the word "tomato" can have multiple contextual interpretations
 
mr5
Why does it matter how many holes are there in a straw?
 
@Neil Yes, but as the saying goes, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", and I've had oh-so-many discussions with people who, once they learned of the biological classification of tomatoes, derived perverse enjoyment out of correcting people that tomatoes are, technically, a fruit. As if "technically" somehow means "more correctly".
 
9:09 AM
What about this.. a guy (lets call hiim guy A) goes in for a job interview and sits down to a another (guy B) who seems to be dressed sharply and seems to be focused on getting the job. Guy B pulls out his "lucky" silver dollar and says it brings him luck. Guy A thinks to himself, "The guy with the silver dollar is surely going to get this job." Guy A ends up getting the job and Guy B doesn't. Guy A later finds to his surprise that he himself had a silver dollar in his pocket.
So his original affirmation that "The guy with the silver dollar is surely going to get this job" was wrong or right?
 
mr5
Is the problem linked into a more interesting stuff?
 
well it's a known argument (I didn't make it up) if that's what you mean
 
@Neil If you're talking about semantic truth values, then the affirmation cannot be resolved as is - "the guy" can refer to any of the two guys.
 
Is this relevant in any real world situation? No, probably not
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan "the guy with the silver dollar" was intended to be guy B, but as it turns out, it was applicable to both
 
@Neil Exactly, but if you want, linguistically, to determine the semantic truth-value of the sentence, you have to resolve the ambiguity.
Pragmatically, if not semantically.
 
9:13 AM
It's not a semantic issue
The interpretation is clear
It is the lack of knowledge that makes it ambiguous, not the statement in of itself
new knowledge brought to light afterwards changed the original meaning
 
If you can think of a "compilation step", as it were, that resolves the statement into "Guy B will get the job" when it is thought, then the new knowledge changes nothing.
The affirmation wasn't "Guys with silver dollars will always get the job".
 
no, it never was that
 
It's "The guy with the silver dollar [=Guy B] will get the job", which is true.
 
The intended meaning was "Guy B will get the job", but it's also true that that isn't what he said
So without meaning to, he was correct
 
Oh, I misread the original message, didn't see it was A who got the job.
 
9:16 AM
it is a little confusing admittedly
 
mr5
Is it normal that I don't understand what you guys are talking?
 
Still, the parsing is the same. A's belief that X=>Y didn't help B (who satisified condition X) get Y.
@mr5 Pretty normal, yeah, I think.
 
8 mins ago, by Neil
What about this.. a guy (lets call hiim guy A) goes in for a job interview and sits down to a another (guy B) who seems to be dressed sharply and seems to be focused on getting the job. Guy B pulls out his "lucky" silver dollar and says it brings him luck. Guy A thinks to himself, "The guy with the silver dollar is surely going to get this job." Guy A ends up getting the job and Guy B doesn't. Guy A later finds to his surprise that he himself had a silver dollar in his pocket.
8 mins ago, by Neil
So his original affirmation that "The guy with the silver dollar is surely going to get this job" was wrong or right?
With the knowledge you have beforehand, there is only one interpretation
The knowledge that comes immediately afterwards (guy A gets the job), there is still only one interpretation (and that he is also wrong)
The knowledge that he himself had a silver dollar means that he was actually right
If language were an LL parser, then there is only one interpretation here regardless
but if that were the only way to interpret it, this wouldn't even be a paradox
language isn't interpretted as a computer would interpret it
 
Nope. And usually not even as people who speak it think they interpret it.
 
which makes an interesting argument that maybe we'll never fully be able to create an AI that can understand a human being
maybe it could understand 99% of cases, but not 100%
 
9:23 AM
Which leads to the question - do humans understand 100% or even 99% of cases?
Not all of them.
 
bit of a wierd one
Has anyone come across an issue where "CS 8 locals1" was being appended to Id's & Names of inputs?
 
@CaptainSquirrel ids and inputs of what?
 
@Neil that statement, if made afterwards, is incorrect, since this would mean that, "if you have a silver dollar, you get the job", which isnt true
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan html inputs on forms
from a quick look on google it might be something to do with roslyn?
 
however, that statement has a different meaning based on when it was made
 
9:25 AM
@Wietlol if you prefer, I could have said "Between the two of us, the guy with the silver dollar is surely going to get this job"
 
"the guy with the silver dollar" is a means of identification
 
You're not getting out of it that easily
 
maybe there were 10 people in the room, one of them showed his silver dollar
that person qualifies as "the guy with the silver dollar"
 
@CaptainSquirrel It looks like the identifier of a local build of C# 8.0, but what does that have to do with HTML inputs?
 
independent of if there was another person who also had one, but hidden away somewhere where the sun doesnt shine
 
9:26 AM
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Not a clue
 
it is being used as identification, but that's not strictly a rule.. you can say "the guy with blonde hair is surely going to get this job" and maybe there are 5 people in a room with blonde hair and 5 without blonde hair
 
@CaptainSquirrel In your web app? or everywhere?
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan But we have an input E.G. @Html.TextBoxFor(x => x.Firstname)
 
@Neil "the guy with the silver dollar is surely going to get this job" is still the same
 
and the ID & Name are being set to "CS$<>8__locals1_Firstname"
 
9:27 AM
"Between the two of us" just eliminates any other contestant
 
@Wietlol that doesn't change anything.. it'd be like saying "the guy with blonde hair will surely get the job" when guy A and guy B both have blonde hair
it wasn't his intended meaning admittedly, but that's the point
he unwittingly thought a truth without having the proper context for understanding that truth
 
as I said, the same statement has different meanings based on the knowledge of the one making it
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan from the looks of it its localised to this one form in the webapp
 
@CaptainSquirrel Hmm. I don't think it has anything to do with roslyn. I haven't used MVC/Razor much, but it probably uses some sort of namespace-prefixes for the HTML it generates.
 
not done much digging on other parts of the project yet.
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Its the first time either myself or the senior have seen it
Its fucking with our selects in jquery because the names aren't what they used to be
 
9:28 AM
@Wietlol so you would argue that "The guy with the silver dollar will surely get the job" is wrong?
 
The CS$ syntax looks like an anonymous type name. Is x an anonymous type?
 
based on how it is used in this story, yes
 
that's one interpretation.. but that statement is clearly true though
 
"the guy with the silver dollar" in the context where it was originally used, means a specific person
that specific person was the one that was sharply dressed
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan Its coming from a viewmodel
 
9:30 AM
It tries to resolve the x.Firstname to give it a name, but either there's a collision with some other type or something like that, and it uses the containing type name too.
 
@Wietlol but it is nonetheless ambiguous..
 
it depends
 
if he had said "the guy sitting next to me", then I'd agree with you
 
it appeared to be ambiguous afterwards
 
@CaptainSquirrel But what type, specifically, is x?
 
9:31 AM
but when it was made, the meaning was clear
 
He meant one thing but the meaning was slightly different.. enough to make a difference here
 
> but the meaning was slightly different
the meaning changes based on the context
 
yes.. the actual meaning was "either one of us is going to get the job"
 
the actual meaning was "guy b is surely going to get the job"
 
@CaptainSquirrel Most questions about it I've found have anonymous types: github.com/aspnet/Mvc/issues/2890
 
9:32 AM
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan x => x.Firstname, The first x is "x ?", the second one is the view model
 
and nothing else
 
no, the actual meaning was "either one of us is going to get the job", even if he didn't realize it
 
However we do this everywhere in the project & this has never happened before
 
@Neil nope
 
We did a merge recently which may have introduced this, however its not present on my version, only my colleagues & i did the merge
 
9:32 AM
if he knew both had a silver dollar, then yes
but the meaning of a statement is tightly coupled to the knowledge of the person making it
 
doesn't matter if he knew
 
more specifically, the knowledge of the person making it, at the time he/she makes it
 
if I say "whenever it rains, I'll bring an umbrella" and the day in which you don't think it rains, you bring an umbrella, that statement still holds true
even if you unwittingly satisfied it
 
Technically he was correct, even though it wasnt what he thought. Whats the point
 
wether or not the statement is incorrect or ambiguous doesnt matter, as long as the person who made the statement has a correct and unambiguous interpretation
 
9:34 AM
@Neil Candidates.Single( p=> p.HasSilverDolar) raises an exception in execution.
 
I think your problem is that you're using slightly different meanings of "truth" here.
 
@bradbury9 :P
well the whole point of the scenario was to determine what is truth
was it truth when he said it?
 
If Neil sits next to me, I say "the guy sitting next to me will get the job", then Neil gets up and Wietlol sits next to me, then Wietlol gets the job - I meant "Neil will get the job" and was wrong, but "the guy sitting next to me will get the job" was right.
 
or is truth independent of time?
 
No. Brvauar
 
9:36 AM
the statement being made in the story was false
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan that's how I interpret it
 
The main issue is that you can't determine truth, because my statement "X will get the job" isn't a statement of truth, it's a prediction, and isn't true in any sense at that point.
 
if you ask me at least
 
but a prediction is either right or wrong
 
The fact that I said something that happened to be true doesn't mean I spoke truth, it just means I got lucky
@Neil It's right or wrong, but it isn't true or false.
 
9:37 AM
No. Because he meant guyB. Yes, because technicslly.
 
ok, but in a month's time, it's a truth, it's not a prediction
 
My prediction isn't logically false just because it didn't come true.
 
but it did come true
 
No, it's not truth. It's a prediction, because it was made before it happened. If I were to say it again, you could evaluate its truth.
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan the difference would be if you knew who was sitting next to you when you made it
 
9:38 AM
It didn't come true. It happens to describe an event that happened, but it isn't that event.
 
If you formulate a theory that the earth is round, and then you find proof of it, you say it is true, you don't say "the prediction rang true"
 
it could also be different based on the meaning you put on it "the guy sitting next to me, when a specific thing happens, is going to ..."
 
@Neil That's different, because you formulate a theory about the present, not about the future.
 
if you say this isn't truth, then theories can't be proven true or false
 
The earth didn't become round when you found proof.
2
 
9:39 AM
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan likewise guy A made a prediction about the present
 
No, it's a prediction about the future. Unless the decision had already been made.
 
If the universe is.proven to be deterministic, then what :p
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan fine, so if Guy A had said that the guy with the silver dollar probably has a great sex life, since it's true in the present, he could be unwittingly giving a truth
I don't think anything changes the fact that it is a prediction or not
 
What the hell is going on here
 
I predict that this room will be chaos
 
9:44 AM
So what you're saying is:
 
May 5 '16 at 15:17, by BoltClock
THIS ROOM IS OUT OF CONTROL
 
@LeeButler in short, x = a && y || !a && y || a && !y || !a && !y
but if you change the operators, how can x be false
 
good morning
 
@Neil It does, because a prediction's truth value is indeterminable. If you revisit a prediction after the fact, you're recontextualizing it, and its this recontextualization which gives it a truth value.
> The CS$<>8__locals1 portion of the name in the original description appears when the compiler generates more than one class for delegates and they reference each other.
@CaptainSquirrel So I'm guessing your merge made some changes in some anonymous lambdas which cause duplicates which need to be resolved with the class name as prefix.
 
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan ok, then you admit that if guy A had said something which can be proven true or false in the now, that it is then a truth and not a prediction, even if guy A did not intend on that truth
if he inadvertently referred to himself to something which can be proven true or false in the now, then you say the problem goes away? I don't think it does
If the employer had already made up his decision and put it in an envelope, the choice has been made. Guy A can still make that affirmation that the guy with the silver dollar will get the job
It is a truth which can be verified, no longer a prediction
so is it no longer a paradox now?
 
9:55 AM
@AvnerShahar-Kashtan We've fixed the issue, and its so fucking wierd.
 
@Neil it was before?
 
So it was localised to specific fields in our new form & not others
Which had been copied from another project, but with nothing out of the ordinary done to them, which was causing the confusion origionally
 
@CaptainSquirrel Duplicate names somewhere?
 
Nope
I updated the MVC Version to 5.2.6 and its no longer happening
 
@Wietlol yes. yes it was, actually
 
9:58 AM
I'm really fucking confused but it works so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks for helping tho @AvnerShahar-Kashtan
 
im still not convinced :|
 
because you don't understand it, or you're simply being pedantic?
 
Also if we had the same name in the same viewmodel VS would have kicked up a fuss about it :P @AvnerShahar-Kashtan
 
because I interpret
 

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