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4:01 PM
Hello and welcome to the third quarter General Room Meeting. In lieu of someone actually qualified, I'll be your chairman for this event.
6
Let's all remember to be excellent to each other, and hopefully most of us will survive through to the end.
 
Now the starring fest begins.
 
No starring fest
 
Let's jump right in. Item #1 on the Agenda is "review of previous meeting". I've got a rough summary of the main points here...
 
(I just starred that for a bit of visibility)
 
Previous meeting item #1: "let's try to have room meetings more often". Well... That didn't go so great. We forgot to have the second quarter meeting. Let's try extra hard to do better in Q4.
To that end, I have already established a tentative date for the next meeting: November 19. Now that we've got a target, it will be harder to let it slip by
Previous meeting item #2: "the room is a bit cliquey, can we do something about that?". Status: indeterminate. The user makeup is about the same as it was before. We're still trying to be welcoming to newcomers. This is both difficult to measure, and to come up with actionable solutions for.
Item #3. "Could there be a lower proportion of gold-badge users in this room than in other rooms. Is this the case, and how do we fix it?". No action taken yet. Another hard-to-measure metric. If anyone wants to volunteer to throw some data analysis elbow grease at this, I'm all ears.
 
4:09 PM
Also, 20k+ users...
 
I'd also add "does it really need fixing?"
(i.e. is this something intrinsic to the gold badgers that are lacking, a statistical fluke, or something we should be doing differently)
 
Item #4. "'Trash' is kind of a blunt name for the room we send trashed messages to. Can we change that?" Status: yep. Since naming it the "Python Ouroboros", I haven't heard any complaints. Perhaps in lieu of getting mad, users are just baffled? I consider this an improvement.
 
It's actually a fairly interesting use of scraping and time series analysis, so if you're looking for something to do there's an idea.
 
Cant force people to stay. People who comes in to ask their question, ends up leaving since their question got answered (until the next time they have another question). Only a hand full actually decided they wanted to stick around.
 
There are several very talented/knowledgable people in this room whose talent is not proportional to there rep or gold badge status. I think that is a reflection of the quality of this community and the python community at large. Meaning, many here don't care about rep as much as contributing to a fruitful community.
Also, there are many gold badgers I'd rather not be hanging out here
 
4:13 PM
This is a topic we should definitely revisit if/when we receive some concrete data.
 
I know of at least one prominent gold badger (Jean-François Fabre) who cannot access Chat on their work computer. I assume he's not the only one. But I also get the impression that he's not that interested in being a regular visitor of this room anyway
 
@Kevin agreed
 
wim
hmm, not sure about that - JFF is active in other chat rooms
 
I think it's also harder to earn rep these days in terms of quality of question. Also attracting high rep / gold badges seems kinda irrelevant, why did we wan't to be focused on their reps in the first place (the answer I might have missed in last meeting).
 
Maybe not during work hours. I'm just going off a comment he made to me a while back when he needed re-tagging to hammer a dupe.
 
4:16 PM
@MooingRawr search here for "gold badger", wim at 16:39
(before and after 10 minutes or something)
 
I think the idea was "having lots of gold badgers isn't an objective good in itself, but it is possibly indicative of the general quality of the room"
 
@AndrasDeak interesting, I will put it on my queue to be read after this meeting. (thanks)
 
wim
@AndrasDeak It depends if you like the cliqueyness or not. Python certainly growing in popularity but this rm is not.
 
the JS room does/did but I'd rather not trade us for them
 
@wim does there exist other chat options that are more popular? IRC?
 
4:17 PM
I agree with Andras, in that most of the flagged chat messages usually always come from the JS room.
 
Python is such an intuitive dream that tech support only needs to grow by 10% when the user base grows by 1000% ;-)
 
Oft I get the impression room 6 is like 's watercooler
 
@Drew Hey! We are in the middle of our general assembly. So we are not going to be discussing Python problems at the moment
 
oops
 
no worries
 
4:19 PM
Thanks, Drew. If it's not a huge problem please bring it up again in an hour or so (whenever the meeting is over) :)
 
We started a few minutes ago
@Drew yes. In about an hour feel free to come back and post that question again
 
Thanks!
 
np
 
Previous Meeting Item #5. "What can we do to make trashing gentler?". I think we've made some progress on this. We try to give correctional tips to the recipient, and make them understand how the room is improved when they try a little harder to format their messages properly. I can recall two or three instances where the user even asked for the messages to be trashed before we took action. That's a great sign of not having any hard feelings.
Switching from "move the messages, then explain the problem" to "explain the problem, then move the messages" seems to have been an important change
 
wim
Yes, that is a big improvement
 
4:22 PM
Agreed. Good improvement
 
addressing the point where Wim said that python's user base has been growing but this room's population hasn't been; I wonder if it's because Python's resources for beginners and medium level of users are that great that most newcomer don't need to seek out extra help (ie come to our chat room)
 
also being a help desk and being good substrate for high-rep users to stick around are two different (and somewhat conflicting) aspects
but let's not jump back to earlier items :)
 
Also there's probably some critical mass where chat becomes less useful the more people are in it, and maybe we're at some local stable point. Who knows? We're not sociologists.
Whoops, sorry, keep on with #5+
 
Previous Meeting Item #6. "Is inlined image uploading getting out of hand?" We adopted a "wait and see" approach to this one. I don't think there were any particularly disruptive events between then and now. (I've personally been hyperlinking my own gifs since then, which probably accounted for 90% of them :-P)
 
are we moving a bit slow with this discussion? Or is this normal?
 
4:25 PM
we are at item #6 now
 
(of the previous meeting)
 
I think it's about the same speed, but last meeting we had way more people, which made the chat fly faster.
 
ah that's why
 
@coldspeed these are parts of a broader current item #1: earlier orders of business. Kevin's leaving some time to discuss. Still we see late remarks :P
 
I've been a bit less present since the last meeting, but the times I was here I did not notice any image link abuse
 
4:26 PM
We only have two Previous Meeting items after this, and then four-ish New Items, so we're about halfway done by that measure
 
@idjaw Me neither. I find a few things annoying but that's mostly due to my pickiness
 
I haven't seen as many gifs so I haven't had to hide the page on my work desktop until it pass, which is nice. I still enjoy the cute pictures though so I think we are heading in the correct direction.
 
Same, I've been super busy so haven't been in the room much, but I've noticed fewer things that need to be cleaned up. I think this is typical of Summer though, there's usually an uptick of lower quality posts around this or next month.
 
Can we revisit some of these topics again in the next GM? I think davidism brings a fair point about the summer and the reduced activity.
 
wim
It would be appreciated if those sharing music videos could inline link them instead of one-boxed.
 
4:29 PM
I don't mind either way. Though it's rare that I click on a youtube onebox, personally
 
wim
I think just adding any extra text in the message prevents them from being one-boxed, doesn't it?
 
@coldspeed Ok, sounds good. So we'll continue to Wait and See and talk about it in Q4.
 
@wim yup, except directed reply IDs
 
Isn't music sharing less frequent than image sharing?
 
@idjaw it is; happens pretty rarely
 
4:30 PM
Sorry I'm late :/
 
no worries, welcome :)
 
better late than never :D
 
I'm just trying to understand what is it about a one box youtube link that is worse than a one box image?
considering that we are concluding it is not being abused?
 
one box image you know what image is, one box video you might not know what the picture might be? is my guess..
 
I post a few music links, but almost always as text links, not one-boxes. And I hate anonymous links without some kind of explanation...
 
4:31 PM
The problem was not that we were linking images, it was that there were particularly large ones or animated ones. Small images are fine (content matters though), and youtube thumbnails are about the same size.
 
I think one boxing yt links is okay as long as it is relevant to the room.
 
wim
I went in to this at the time, but music videos often have a thumbnail that says "this is obviously not work related"
 
I take it wim finds them more annoying. One advantage of youtube oneboxes is that you see the title and the performer, which is additional info
 
Mar 12 at 23:33, by wim
I read/participate in the Python SO chat at work, which is acceptable (programming related), but the thumbnails of these music videos make it look like I'm in some kind of an anime chat room. It's not a good look for me or, presumably, others that use SO at work.
 
A couple regulars do occasionally post their music selection. At the very least, we can make it known to them that some have expressed a preference for hyperlinks. Even if we don't resolve to make it an official policy.
 
4:32 PM
I'm impartial to any of the one-boxing, text thingie. It's not an issue at my place of employment and the personally I like the context.
But let the democracy decide this one
 
There's all sorts of content that can be posted, so singling out youtube seems odd. If you're concerned with images or oneboxed content in general, adblock can block those divs fairly easily and is probably a safer bet overall.
 
FWIW most of the youtube oneboxen don't look like music chat.stackoverflow.com/search?room=6&q=youtube
 
I also don't understand the difference between music link being worse than image link in terms of grading non-work related shenanigans
 
wim
use common sense / discretion
 
I think it's the default
 
wim
4:34 PM
anime has too strong association with body pillows etc
 
I think that is collectively what we are concluding is that in general we have agreed that there hasn't been any abuse of one-boxing so we don't need to hammer anything down right now.
Also, I think the last time I was involved in people sharing NSFWish anime type pictures we squashed that down quickly and I never saw it again
 
wim
if it's a youtube of a pycon talk I have zero issue with that
 
4 mins ago, by coldspeed
I think one boxing yt links is okay as long as it is relevant to the room.
 
if this is about the few anime-related-looking links that davidism and others posted in March: nothing of sorts has happened since
 
wim
great
But at the time, I was kicked out of the room for asking about it.
 
4:37 PM
Hopefully no one creates an anime based python talk >.<
3
 
I'm glad it's settled then.
 
Yes let's move on.
 
Previous Meeting Item #7. "Let's write up a summary of what was discussed during the Q2 meeting, and add it to the transcript page on the sopython.com site." We didn't get around to this. I'm reading from a rough summary that was prepared a couple of days ago, but it's not publicly available anywhere. I'm hoping we'll do better for this meeting, since it's been less of a dog & pony show so far :-)
 
hold my beer
 
@piRSquared I'd lowkey toy with the idea of checking one of those out
 
4:38 PM
I don't think this is a huge issue, since the transcript is still publicly available. All the information is there for anyone to peruse. It's just unfiltered.
 
/takes @AndrasDeak's beer and gets out the popcorn
 
And we're also reviewing it now. But at least a brief outline in the transcript summary would be nice, for nothing else but to make our "previous business" next meeting easier.
 
/takes @AndrasDeak beer from @Code-Apprentice and drinks it 😛
 
"thanks for offering, but I have my own"?
 
Final Previous Meeting Item: "We'll open up the agenda for the next meeting, which as always can be edited by any user with >= 100 rep". Status: partial success. We did open the agenda, but only one week ago. Ideally, everyone would have an entire quarter to propose topics.
I intend to put up a stub page for the Q4 meeting immediately after this meeting concludes.
 
wim
4:41 PM
Good to put the page up and make it editable immediately
 
Sure, as long as users can restrain themselves from adding topics in the heat of the moment after disputes with ROs or other users
 
@wim I think that was the plan after last time already, it was just forgotten
 
wim
@coldspeed Not necessarily a bad thing
can always edit again and remove after your head cools down
 
@Kevin I know very little about Python, but you're saying I am able to edit the agenda for the next meeting?
 
Navigating to the wiki from the chat room is arduous enough that you probably won't be at the peak of your rage when you finally get to the edit panel ;-)
 
wim
4:43 PM
yes, that's exactly it.
 
The meetings aren't about python, they're about this chat room.
 
@JennaSloan Yep, any Stack Overflow user with 100 reputation or more has the right to edit sopython.com/wiki/2018_Q3_General_Meeting
No Python knowledge required.
 
Of course I'd hazard the statement that room owners are allowed to revise topics added by others and modify them if necessary.
 
if someone has less than 100 rep, they can talk to anyone in this room and we can add it for them. (if it's valid I guess).
 
OTOH, I think we do need some mechanism to handle situations when room visitors (whether casuals or regulars) have a serious grievance relating to the room. We don't want to create a Situation in the room itself, but we still need a way to deal with that sort of feedback fairly and swiftly.
 
4:44 PM
if nobody posts "free banana suits for all!" as a topic, this should stay on the level of typo fixes
 
@PM2Ring Are you suggesting some form of a more private channel to provide criticism to ROs?
 
@idjaw Something like that. But I don't know how we could implement it easily, since SO doesn't have PMs.
 
@PM2Ring Isn't this room the best place for that kind of thing though? Serious grievances usually affect the entire room, not just the person who's making the complaint.
 
We used to have an email, but no one ever used it and I couldn't maintain it when moving servers. I can add a GitHub issue to add a private feedback section to the website.
 
@PM2Ring We could try to make it a bit more obvious to the people here on how to get to that
 
4:46 PM
@Aran-Fey Fair point And that can work if people keep civil. But that's not always easy when emotions are running high. And some people can discuss stuff easier when there's a degree of privacy.
 
wim
I think just directly in room is best. If someone is obviously in a rage they can be booted.
 
Could make a contact form that saves to DB or flatfile <- rather than email
 
@wim it usually gets worse from there, as you know
 
@wim True, however, in the event that someone is not comfortable being public about their grievance, it might be nice to provide that channel.
 
wim
hmm, good point.
 
4:48 PM
We can provide it as a form on sopython.com, and have it posted somewhere else that is not email based which might make life easier for the managing part @davidism
 
@vaultah Does it? I've been visiting this room for a year, and I know nothing of the sort
 
@wim to a point I'd agree, but after a level of escalation it's often better to occupy oneself with something else. When either or both parties are agitated there's not much room for an objective discussion
I wouldn't want ongoing arguments in the room that lead nowhere
which is also why we often freeze the room for half a minute or so when we assess that continuing the discussion would make it even worse
s/often/occasionally/, really
 
I feel like we're dipping a little bit into New Item #3, "Disputes with an RO and how to resolve them constructively." I guess it's fine to go through the Items out of order as long as we hit them all at some point.
 
A private channel like that is a bit like a fire extinguisher. You don't expect it to get used very often, but you're glad it's there when you need it. :)
 
I would like to see a conflict resolution step between "bring up your grievance with the RO who you think is doing wrong, right then and there" and "wait to raise your grievance at the room meeting"
 
wim
4:52 PM
so <-> meta so
rm6 <-> meta rm6 ??
 
does this mean we will have our meeting in meta rm6?
 
would make sense
 
wim
I mean meta SO is where people go to fight and disagree without making a big mess on SO, there is nothing equivalent for chat
 
Hypothetically, what if we also used meta SO to fight and argue?
 
That would avoid the scenario of someone coming into this room looking for help but received a "come back later message", not that it's a big issue
 
4:54 PM
@Kevin historically, that just gets SE annoyed at chatrooms again and usually degrades from there
 
wim
the same room could be used for the meetings, might make keeping the minutes unnecessary
 
@wim Does making a new chatroom for that not work?
 
I suppose we could have a meta room. But we would need to keep it active so that it doesn't get frozen and deleted.
 
Let's clarify. Are we talking about "private channel to protect someone with a grievance", or "separate channel to protect the main room from meta-discussions and heated arguments"?
because these are very different suggestions
 
^^ good point
 
4:56 PM
A meta room would not be private, so that doesn't really work for stuff that needs privacy.
 
Which now raises the question on whether we care about the privacy at the moment. It can be a version 1?
and we can improve from there if we see there are private issues that come up?
 
^ +1
 
I wouldn't think privacy is a real issue. We don't have abuse or put-down of users that would merit such measures.
 
I think transparency is pretty nice to keep people in the loop kind of thing. If they want privacy could they not create a new account just to raise their concern?
 
Perhaps. But I suspect that 99% of the time stuff that doesn't need privacy can easily be done in room 6 itself. So there isn't a lot of point in having a non-private meta room.
 
4:59 PM
@PM2Ring I disagree. There were a lot of times where arguments became too heated, and it was bad for the room and bad for those involved
 
A meta room is going to get frozen for inactivity.
 
If we don't get a meta room 6, then we must be allowed to have discussions here in this room. If there's no place where having discussions about this room is acceptable, then something's wrong.
 
long arguments (unrelated to PEP 572) shouldn't be kept here
 
lol
 

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