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12:19 AM
So are you aiming to rule out all slash words then? (Slash words are words that are comprised solely of slashes. They are all words currently.)
I have to say I think that that would be removing a beauty mark rather than a wart.
In fact, in my lexer I discuss extending the existing uses of slash in refinements and paths, vis a vis, //ref2, a//path2, a///path3, and so on, as a natural Rebol *language* extension.
None of these uses conflict with slash words, and already refinement words must not appear bare in paths, so I see no overriding need to regularise these structures.
 
@MarkI Double slashes are also permitted in STRING!s. {//}. So allowing them in URL is more an issue of context-awareness of the nature of delimiting there. As to whether a//path2 is allowed or not, as picking a refinement something, that's a policy decision--I'd likely be opposed to it, but who knows. The comment form requires a space before or beginning of line.
 
Right, so no direct conflict with urls, you are right on that one.
But you admit that a triple-slash word would be a comment?
 
//=////////////////////////////////////////////=//
//
// I USE THIS STYLE COMMENT (so yes, comment)
//
//=///////////////////////////////////////////=//
 
And what about [//]? What would you like that to be?
@HostileFork Again, I feel that that is a C comment, not a Rebol comment. But, all right, semi-colon is a comment in other languages also.
 
Rebol generally considers [x and [ x identical, I imagine for practical purposes it's as if there's a space there, so comment.
However, I would put a space, if it were me.
[ // making some remark on this block
    print "hello"
]
 
12:27 AM
You do see the readability issue though, correct?
Not everyone is you.
 
I'd not be opposed to prohibiting [//.
@MarkI ...and that's what makes me mad.
 
But you'd allow [/?
@HostileFork Haha. Me too.
 
Yes, we have accepted (I am pretty sure) that / is to be treated as a, er, "value"
So [/] is ok, just as [a] is ok.
 
Or [/a].
Or [/a comment.].
 
@MarkI speaking of things, did you read the death to ALSO and AFTER via modification of ELIDE? I think invisibles are really paying off.
 
12:31 AM
Yes of course, I see all and read all. Remember, no news is good news :)
 
So you only write to complain? Well, there's a well-established club for that. :-)
 
You know I compliment you when necessary!
You should be complimenting me on that one.
 
Well, save that up, not needed at the moment.
 
Elide was my idea, remember!
Or at least it was mutual.
 
Yup. Though it had crossed my mind. But having someone else speak up for something that's crossed my mind is what gets things attention.
Hadn't really thought of all the potential applications (mostly just truly invisible comment, really), but it's great for things like DUMP
Killing off ALSO and AFTER is bonus
 
12:36 AM
Have you heard of Jupyter?
Interesting model for multi-threading a console ...
 
Been brought up a couple times. I haven't run it.
 
Don't run it. Just read the docs. Rebol can be set up that way, without the framework cruft.
Just wondered if rebLib could be viewed as similar to a Jupyter back-end.
 
Right now I think it's best if we have a slightly-diffused-laser focus on getting in a web browser with a tutorial that can "sell while we sleep" so to speak.
It's a bit disheartening that repl.it has both gone commercial and abandoned the idea of running in the browser for running the interpreters server side.
In any case, it would be nice if whatever JS framework is set up can be used to do something Ren-Garden-like, and I think the investment would likely pay off more.
 
JS is huge buggy crappy and unreliable sadly ...
 
My knowledge is rather dated in that area, I used to know a bit about ExtJS when I experimented with it long ago...and even hacked around Firefox bugs
I definitely don't want to get involved with that kind of annoyance again, so I'm hoping there's something stable enough out there to use. That terminal link I posted for giulio looks kind of promising: hyper.is
Hm, although can it run in a browser without some native thing? It says HTML/Js/CSS terminal but then doesn't have any webpage-only links, only Electron downloads.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:07 AM
@Brett I wonder if we should adapt the test dialect to use ( ) instead of [ ] for tests, and then allow you to group related tests together. Like [ #1487 (foo: 1) (foo = 1) ]. Then you can assume that all the definitions within a group will be preserved. But it runs and binds each test in its own context to keep it from contaminating future tests with values.
We could keep the blocks-for-tests and then use GROUP!s to group them, but I don't think it's as appealing or consistent with the language, e.g. ( #1487 [foo: 1] [foo = 1])
 
Anyone have a proven step by step to get a version of Rebol running on a modern x64 Linux? I'm not having much luck
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rebol/permalink/10158852356075078/
 
@JamesNewton If you're looking for Rebol2, then there was a core build of it [no /View]...but I don't know how much success people had with it. If you are wondering about the edgy-only-living-branch of Rebol3, we have downloads
You could also install 32-bit compatibility libraries.
3
A: How to run Rebol on Freya

James IrwinThese are the steps I took to get R2 core and view working on Ubuntu 14.04 LTS "Trusty," so I would imagine that this would also work on Freya: sudo dpkg --add-architecture i386 sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install libc6:i386 libncurses5:i386 libstdc++6:i386 sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get ...

 
@HostileFork Tried the add-architecture i386 thing (see link above) and never could get done finding all the dependencies. I'll try your downloads. I'm running Ubuntu 14, 16, and Win 7 so one of them should work. ,o)
 
@JamesNewton Ah, well, it's a whole new world...and the Rebol2/Red "compatibility skin" isn't a focus, so it hasn't been worked on in a while.
So it's really for people interested in being involved with the development at the moment. And while it addresses some missing bits from R3-Alpha, it's still primarily based on R3-Alpha, so when it comes to I/O and "doing things" it's not much better off. Just a lot of work on the language itself.
But, as mentioned, it is alive...so bugs are tended to, and given it being open source people can work on it.
 
 
4 hours later…
6:44 AM
posted on January 30, 2018 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Given that this works: print ["you are" (is-rebol-user then ["very"]) "cool"] One may wonder why this doesn't work: print ["one is" (1 > 2 else ["not"]) "greater than two"] Although the more frequent question is why this doesn't work: x: all [...] else [1 + 2] While neither work, they are two different desires. The "print

 
 
2 hours later…
8:51 AM
@JamesNewton Chances are that it's a missing font (Courier 11 screen font for X11 soecifically) -> rebol.com/article/0545.html
 
 
1 hour later…
10:15 AM
posted on January 30, 2018 by hostilefork

This works as expected: >> if true [print "first"] elide (print "second") first second This does not: >> case/all [ true [print "first"] elide (print "second") true [print "third"] ] second first third Desired output: first second third

 
 
3 hours later…
1:20 PM
posted on January 30, 2018 by hostilefork

ELSE was designed to examine the evaluated value on its left, and pass it through if it was non-void...otherwise evaluate the branch it was provided. When combined with a convention of conditional constructs only returning void if they didn't run any branches, this could give the "illusion" of a conventional language's behavior running ELSE clauses. (The illusion was enhanced with other

 
 
1 hour later…
2:20 PM
posted on January 30, 2018 by IngoHohmann

>> help "of" ** Script Error: find does not allow datatype! for its series argument ** Where: either either all any for-each _ either collect dump-obj if help _ ** Near: [find str ~~ pat] ** File: tmp-boot.r This is due to dump-obj having a refinement /match and using match in its implementation

posted on January 30, 2018 by IngoHohmann

Using lib/match in dump-obj

 
3:01 PM
>> 1 > 2 nay [print "forsooth, it is not so"]
forsooth, it is not so

>> 1 < 2 nay [print "forsooth, it is not so"] else [print "verily it hath been proven!"]
verily it hath been proven!
Nay is one of those words that shouldn't have fallen from fashion, because we need such a word, for when you rhetorically ask a question and then go on with something because the answer to that question was false.
"Is one greater than two? Nay, it is smaller, and even the smallest schoolchild knows it!"
 
 
2 hours later…
4:51 PM
Think I'm going to have to preemptively veto the ELSE on blanks. Learned some things looking into it--educational experience--some findings to be kept. But it's too disruptive, feels like it's adding complexity.
 
I say yay for nay.
 
@ingo It's interesting how when you get into this area, there's all these words for "and so it follows" but not many for "and so it doesn't". You look up something like ERGO and try to find an antonym and there's not one.
 
Carl has always talked about fighting software complexity with "language itself". For us, the English language.
 
@DaviddenHaring Well the English language is certainly not simple. One can learn that trying to answer questions here on English Language Learners. I tried that for a while and it's often a big challenge to explain why one would--as a native speaker--accept some sentences over others...
We're getting to where we have a lot of cool operations, it's just getting hard to name them all.
"Infix" Changes on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
## Ren-C >> x: {initial value} >> x: maybe blank == {initial value} >> x: maybe 1 + 2 == 3 >> x: maybe () == 3 >> x: maybe* blank ;-- * means count _ as value ...
 
5:14 PM
One answer to the all [...] else [...] conundrum might be to use OR, and make it only return LOGIC! if both arguments are LOGIC!. So true and (false) would be false, but 4 and (blank) would be blank, blank or 7 would be 7, etc. Then it could become all [...] or (...).
 
Thanks ingo, that's the error that sent me down the rabbit hole of trying to install multi arch support. You can read my journey here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rebol/permalink/10158852356075078/
Is there a fix somewhere on that page you linked to or are you just pointing out that others have seen the same issue?
 
Wow!! #Rebol his a home run with this new menu!! #publicsquare
 
@rgchris perhaps the twitter feed could be filtered for... uh... pictures of food. Or #publicsquare.
 
@HostileFork Thanks HostileFork, the thing is, I have no interest in embedding Rebol in C, I'd like to use it to make very small distributable apps. Like batch files but with graphics, etc... I'm happy to help with development, post issues, etc. but I need to be able to actually use the language first. I'll try those downloads you pointed at soon.
@HostileFork I love the way perl uses "or". e.g. Open file or die "can't open file"
 
@JamesNewton Just discussing the likes of open file nay [fail "can't open file"], where NAY would be the infix form of UNLESS, while THEN is the infix form of IF.
But if you want the (open file) result to pass through, another thing is needed, so maybe OR could be used in that way.
Classically you would write any [open file | fail "can't open file"] (where | is "expression barrier", just to separate expressions, so shorter way of writing any [(open file) (fail "can't open file")]
But f: open file or (fail "can't open file") could work too.
 
6:04 PM
I think adapting infix OR and AND--which are short-circuited--to be more pliable in their return result matrix, "like the languages that are like that" (as @JamesNewton points out, it's not uncommon), is a better answer than trying to make ELSE and ALSO serve two masters.
 
6:35 PM
@HostileFork Isn't that one of the reasons for dialects? I'm not saying that the English language is easy, but expressing yourself within the context of a dialect could still be more clear than creating a hierarchy of objects, for example.
 
@DaviddenHaring Yes... but DO is the means by which you make dialects, and a lot of words are "taken", plus some of the more interesting new constructs do things that can be hard to give names to. Like ME and MY, where not only is what it's doing strange, but by definition the words have to be short or it's going to be a waste.
Dialect authors should, in theory, have it easier... though it depends on who's doing the designing, and how consistent they think things have to be with DO, or PARSE, or anything else. It's easy until you make it not easy for yourself by worrying about fitting in.
 
7:12 PM
So all [x y z] or ({String}) is a grand total of one character shorter than any [all [x y z] {String}]. Reads a bit better when the case is simple like that. But I'm not sure how useful it will be as I don't know what people were trying to do specifically with ALL...ELSE. It may be the cases are covered better by NAY (enfix UNLESS, above).
 
I personally don't like thinking in negatives and never liked unless.
 
Well, as per newspeak with double-plus-not-un-good, having options based on what you're trying to emphasize can be good. I find it's case-by-case as to whether I want to say unless vs. if not
Richer vocabulary, if you'd ever use the word unless in English instead of "if not" then you'd probably find some places in programs where you'd use it too.
unless already-ready [get-ready]

if not already-ready [get-ready]
But main point being, I think I've gone ahead and pretty much proven why it's possible-but-not-worth-it to make ELSE work with BLANK!, let's see how people get by with the more interesting OR.
 
8:01 PM
@JamesNewton On Ubuntu / Debian it shoud be:
sudo apt-get install xfonts-100dpi xfonts-75dpi
from this link: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35106858/how-to-run-rebol-on-freya/35118867#35118867
 
8:19 PM
posted on January 30, 2018 by IngoHohmann

>> help ensure* USAGE: ENSURE* test value ** Script Error: cannot use copy on logic! value ** Where: copy if for-each inherit-frame all any construct dig-function-meta-fields help _ ** Near: [child/(param): copy parent/(param) ~~] ** File: tmp-boot.r ** Line: 136 The error happens in dig-function-meta-fields (src/mezz/base-funcs.r). And that's where I got lost.

 
 
1 hour later…
9:33 PM
Yeah no. Again from the facebook post at:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rebol/permalink/10158852356075078/
I've tried all that. Is that post not visable?
What I've tried:
dpkg --add-architecture i386
apt-get update
apt-get install libc6:i386 libcurl3:i386
"./rebol: error while loading shared libraries: libX11.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
sudo apt-get install libx11-6:i386
sudo apt install libxt6:i386
"./rebol: error while loading shared libraries: libXt.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory"
sudo apt install libXaw7:i386
and
sudo apt install libstdc++6:i386
and
sudo apt install libfreetype6:i386
 
10:30 PM
@JamesNewton Try this out:
dpkg –add-architecture i386
apt-get update
apt-get install libc6:i386
apt-get install libstdc++6:i386
apt-get install libx11-6:i386 libxcb1:i386 libxaw7:i386 libfreetype6:i386
apt-get install xfonts-100dpi xfonts-75dpi
I just got it to work on a Lubuntu 17.10 VM. According to our wiki, this has worked to get Rebol/View running on a 64-bit Linux since 15.10.
Make sure to log out and then log back in after you install these packages; otherwise, it will still give you an error.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:50 PM
@HostileFork Just looks better to me than using unless and it's the same number of characters. Less cognitive strain for me.
unless might read better but you have to think what it means. Where with if not we have a truthy value which is reversed.
 

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