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1:16 AM
0
A: Rebol: Dynamic binding of block words

HostileForkGreat question. :-) Writing your own custom loop constructs in Rebol2 and R3-Alpha (and now, history repeating with Red) has many unanswered problems. These kinds of problems were known to the Rebol3 developers and considered blocking bugs. (The reason that Ren-C was started was to address su...

 
2:10 AM
I've mentioned in the past a kind of annoying aspect of the relationship between COMPOSE and COMPOSE/ONLY, in the sense that usually the /ONLY versions of things are "lower level" and the way by which you could implement the non-/ONLY version. But splicing behavior cannot be achieved with COMPOSE/ONLY. It's backwards...as you can implement the non-splicing version in terms of the splicing one (by adding a wrapping block to whatever you want to add as-is)
 
 
2 hours later…
3:41 AM
posted on November 11, 2017 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: History of Rebol Unicode Rebol2 lacked unicode support, and one of the agenda items for Rebol3 was to support unicode. This was an era that predated emoji--where codepoints that would take up more than two bytes were rare. And as a cross-platform program that had to run on Windows (where Unicode support meant UCS-2 or UTF-16 or wh

 
 
4 hours later…
7:22 AM
@rgchris You've pointed out in the past that with utf-8 everywhere, as binary! string on unlocked strings exposing their UTF-8 data is bad, because the access through the binary could corrupt the string to become invalid UTF-8. But I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to do bin: as binary! lock string...for that matter, there's no real reason why you couldn't do as binary! word today to get the UTF-8 data.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:48 AM
@ftl Hello, and welcome to the questioning side of Rebol. :-)
 
ftl
Oh, hi there! Thank you very much, and thanks again for answering my question in so much detail
Still many things I have to learn about Rebol, it's a fascinating language
(btw, I was also wondering how parsers can be made more composable a few days a go, and now I was reading your entry in the form -- funny coincidences)
 
Well, I think anyone trying to explore a language and try things in it that are non-trivial tends to want to know what the limits are.
You don't happen to be a C programmer, do you? :-)
 
ftl
Well, I started with C++ and I know a bit of C but I tend to avoid these languages ;)
especially now that I am "spoiled "(Smalltalk, Forth and now Rebol)
 
@ftl Well maybe you could be motivated if you saw an aspect you could improve in the language. I was going to send you this: Virtual_Bind_Deep_To_New_Context() which might shed some light on how the internal implementation handles loop bodies at the moment.
 
ftl
oh, that's great!
thank you
 
8:54 AM
I've rather thoroughly completely analyzed, tightened up, commented, and studied Rebol's sources...many of the old problems are still there, but the code is light years advanced from the open source release of R3-Alpha.
 
ftl
I see
yeah, I have been wondering about the "formal" semantics of the language
because there's bits and pieces everywhere
and I was wondering how a minimal Rebol (the kernel language) would look like
 
Yep. Well it's based on a pretty wacky idea that was just kind of pushed around to see what could be done with it, and most of the formal study came from its users trying to guess at it from the outside.
 
ftl
I will definitely take a look at the C code. Unfortunately, I have to leave now, going on a short trip - but "I'll be back". :-)
 
Well, welcome. I can answer basically anything. The answers can be disappointing sometimes, but, there's lots of interesting stuff to point out.
And a tremendous amount of new fundamental language properties in Ren-C.
 
ftl
I gotta check that out too. Yes, I already noticed that you know your way around :-)! Thanks for sharing your knowledge! Until next time!
 
9:18 AM
0
Q: Read doesn't work with Wordpress.com pages

user310291even with the fix suggested Read https://google.com doesn't work anymore in Red? convert-invalid: function [page] [ collect/into [foreach c page [keep to-char c]] clear "" ] convert-invalid read/binary https://en.blog.wordpress.com/2015/02/26/wordpress-for-ios-new-visual-editor-and-more/ ...

 
Argh. That guy sure has a lot of rep (apparently knows a lot of C#) to be asking such things...twice.
 
9:45 AM
posted on November 11, 2017 by hostilefork

This is another fledgling step toward allowing the evaluator to be invoked through a "higher-level" API, where the difficult details of REBSER management and carefully pairing PUSH_GUARD_XXX/DROP_GUARD_XXX can be avoided. As a first example of application, the REPL's main loop is converted to rely on the higher-level API for execution and error reporting. This hides things like the details of

1
A: Read doesn't work with Wordpress.com pages

sqlabThis is a different issue. Check your error message. Access Error: cannot connect: https:... Red does not yet support https. Remedy: use curl

 
10:21 AM
0
Q: use keyword in Rebol vs use keyword in Red

user310291I wanted to use "Use" in Red but it seems it is quite different from use in Rebol, looking into help: In Red: >> help use cause-error function! Causes an immediate error throw, w... In Rebol >> help use USAGE: USE words body DESCRIPTION: Defines...

 
10:45 AM
0
A: use keyword in Rebol vs use keyword in Red

sqlab>> source use USE is an unset! value, so source is not available. use is not yet implemented. What you see is just a function where help is finding the string 'use' in 'cause-error'. That's a byproduct of the enhanced searching of help also in names, description and interface etc

 
 
10 hours later…
8:28 PM
I purposefully limited the types that DO would accept in order to give the potential for variance in behaviors. This led to things like do <library> or future potential like do <library>/1.1 to pick versions or something with paths. It could be overloaded in various ways where just DO of an integer would pick that integer out of the command history, etc. The idea of just "fall through and return the value", e.g. DO 1 being 1, is nonsensical...e.g. since do %file is not %file.
However, one of the types I made stop working was GROUP!. Because you can always do as block! group. So I wondered if some interesting shade of meaning might be given to DO of a GROUP, specifically. It could mean something as subtle as whether it catches QUIT or not, for instance. do [quit/with 3] => 3, do (quit/with 3) => quits. That's probably a bad idea, I'm just giving an example.
 
8:48 PM
0
A: Read doesn't work with Wordpress.com pages

EdocIt's likely due to more widespread adoption of TLS 1.2, which none of the redbols currently support natively. I just got slammed by this last week too. I have about 20 encapped local apps which allows users to easily query a dense Web API. In order to get these working again, I'd need to install...

 
ftl
@HostileFork: Which makes me think, since you mention overloading, have there been experiments with polymorphic words (like multimethods) in Rebol?
 
@ftl The words like APPEND and such are polymorphic in terms of having a common archetype and then dispatching to an implementation based on the type of the first argument. It's not particularly sophisticated. So I think there's a lot of story to be told about when one would use binding vs. some kind of overloading.
@ftl While there are weak points, there are some real fun ones, though these days nearly everything I like are Ren-C-isms...there's a lot going on.
 
ftl
Oh, infix functions, that's nice
 
9:04 PM
@ftl Trick is there's only one FUNCTION! type. So there are no "infix functions", there are just enfixed bindings between a WORD! and a FUNCTION!...where enfix means the first argument comes from the left, but it can have many arguments on the right. It can even be variadic.
And because there are no "enfix functions", this means any word linked to a FUNCTION! you fetch via GET-WORD! (so it doesn't call the function) will not carry any enfix idea of itself. foo: :+ just gives you the same thing as :add
This means the ENFIX operation itself can't "return an enfix function", there's no such thing.
So ENFIX itself has to be an enfix operation which quotes the left side SET-WORD!, and performs the special magic SET/ENFIX to that SET-WORD! with the right hand side.
 
ftl
I see. That's a great idea. Since the parser has to handle infix words anyway, you just "factor" out that "information", right?
much like the fact that there are no scopes
 
@ftl The parser/scanner knows nothing of infix. Only the evaluator. The evaluator has detailed comments, as with most things: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/blob/master/src/core/…
There's a lot of fun stuff. Lambdas, like [a b] -> [a + b] as an alternate notation for func [a b] [a + b], or even variadically as (a -> a + 1) where it spools the right hand side into a block.
 
ftl
I could use that
I still have to get familiar with all the details, so I am sorry if my wording is sometimes off
 
And it's wildly easy to make these things. What about precedence manipulators? trello.com/c/fpA2ryJw
<|: enfix func [
    left [<opt> any-value!]
    right [<opt> any-value! <...>]
][
    while [not tail? right] [take right]
    :left
]

|>: enfix func [
    left [<opt> any-value!]
    right [<opt> any-value! <...>]
][
    also (take right) (
         while [not tail? right] [take right]
    )
]
 
ftl
that's elegant
so many things to learn :)
 
9:13 PM
@ftl If you wrap your head around ELSE and THEN, I think you'll be sufficiently impressed. They are, if I do say myself, rather brilliant. trello.com/c/NPivtSdd/…
else: enfix redescribe [
    "Evaluate the branch if the left hand side expression is void"
](
    specialize 'either-test [test: :any-value?]
)
 
ftl
Currently, I am using Rebol2, so I still have to come to grips with that
So I am afraid I am not that much of a help right now :-)
But the work you are doing is impressive, too bad I can't appreciate all details
at the moment
 
Well, you're not expected to get it all right away. But I'm just saying that while Rebol falls down in some areas other languages do fine and take for granted, it has some cool mechanics (Ren-C specifically) for making new language constructs pop up in userspace.
Your experience with userspace loops being harder than they should be to make is the kind of thing that needs remedies, and that's being worked on.
 
ftl
Well, yes. Currently, I am in my own loop, monitoring myself. But it is clear, that we need much more data how a language is used, where "users" struggle, how they come up with solutions, where they fail and how they improve their code
I guess that's to a large degree an infrastructure problem
 
The Rebol community is pretty small these days, but there's a lot of usage experience from over its history. A few monks keep the books on that.
I'm (relatively speaking) "new". I'm more interested in the experiment of it, than necessarily being fully practical about it.
But I think that if a language has giant holes in it, and one builds on broken assumptions before figuring those out, then to argue you are being "practical" in doing so isn't necessarily right.
 
ftl
9:31 PM
I agree with that. One way or another the things built on that approach will break down - sooner or later. It seems to be the common case - but given with the cruft we have to deal with on a daily basis, it is not surprising
 
I'll be happy if it's just even fun. For a good time: Ren Garden
 
ftl
Hey, that's important. Programming should be fun! Dan Ingalls reminded me of that
Currently, I am on a limited internet connection, so I'll watch the rest of the video later.
I've had many ideas about interaction, but I have to demonstrate first (currently, I just "wasted" too much time on language research)
so I have nothing to show :-)
 
@ftl Well if you want to be involved, I can offer a quite reasonable possibility of fun...with an almost certain amount of wasted time. :-)
 
ftl
That sounds great :-)
But I really have to get a prototype up and running, so that I can express what I am after more clearly
(or get a better understanding of what I am actually trying to build)
 
 
1 hour later…
10:47 PM
0
Q: Is it possible in Red to test value? for a variable inside a context not in global context?

user310291In last example, probe value? 'a returns true as it detects 'a has value in global context. But I'd like to test 'a exclusively in local context, is there a syntax to do so ? context [ probe value? 'a; false ] context [ a: 1 probe value? 'a; true ] ;...

 

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