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00:06
@wilx what
@Mikhail Do you have any experience with NVMe adapter cards?
4 NVMe SSDs into a PCIe x16 slot.
Have you thought about making a water cooling system for your CPU, then using the other end of the cooling system to grill seafood/meat/veges when doing prolonged intensive calculations?
most important of all is to make a video of it and put the video on youtube for everyone to see ...
00:23
If I get 2 of those cards with 4 Samsung EVOs each. That's potentially 25 GB/s read 14 GB/s write. The catch will be that I'll need to move my video card down to the 3rd slot to give the two SSD cards 16 lanes each. (my mobo can only do 16x/16x/8x)
The Samsung 960 Pros have even more bandwidth. But not worth the price premium.
> "War schlruhe ... Gudel ne swach nuz Leisaht" - You know this is some peculiar brand of Yiddish or something.
It has been a really long time since I heard such an atrocious accent.
01:01
Netflix is getting serious. Normally they only kill the character. https://twitter.com/businessinsider/status/926567130115518464
ooooomph
 
1 hour later…
02:16
hi
Can anyone tell me how to use tolower()?
@Mysticial zero experience, but I've actually had a problem with Samsung 840s not being correctly detected by Adaptec RAID cards.
Looks fucking great :-)
Anybody that says computer performance hasn't changed in the last decade, should look at IO benchmarks
@Mikhail That's with Windows software RAID. I'm curious to see if you can get 4x speedup with 4 independent IO threads.
Aye, well most HW raid cards give linear scaling (that's what you buy). But as you can tell I'm completely useless because I'm more into bulk storage.
02:41
that's old news
okay deleted
03:35
Who is Rapptz and why are they so wrong
1v1 me on 2fort
 
1 hour later…
05:01
@Mikhail Yes and no. Certainly use of solid-state storage and RAID is much more widespread than it used to be. But, if you wanted it badly enough, you could certainly put together a system using solid-state storage and RAID well over a decade ago. From a viewpoint of fundamentals, all of this is pretty similar to (for one example) the Extended Core Storage and Large Core Memory-Extended, used in Control Data mainframes by the late 1960's.
05:17
@JerryCoffin thank you for agreeing with me, fuck you for disagreeing with me
@Mikhail Thanks for offering, but I think I'll pass; I doubt you're my type.
also the picture is clear if you look at it by cost for an X tb MB/s system
@Mikhail Storage costs have dropped (and speeds risen) pretty dependably for decades. I haven't tried to draw a graph that includes SSDs, but my immediate guess is that they probably fit pretty well with the long-term trend line. So, while things continue to change, I'm not particularly certain there's a great deal of acceleration to the curve.
@JerryCoffin ssds have doubled in speed
@Mikhail You're missing the point. They need to double in speed every N months simply to maintain the long-term trend. The exact value of N is open to some argument, but most arguments put it around 18 +/- 6.
05:31
in 2012, it took me 16 SSDs to get 5,200 MB/s, now you can use 4 SSDs (apparently)
@Mikhail So bandwidth has quadrupled in 5 years. That's clearly at the slow end of the curve. If N was 24, it should quadruple in 4 years (and if N = 18, it would quadruple in 3 years).
Your argument is petty, bandwidth per $ has steadily improved and continues to improve
Its already enabling new applications in my work, as time-lapse tomographic imaging of embryos, etc.
@JerryCoffin SSDs are indeed cheap. I've picked up 4 x 500GB SSDs over the past few months. 1 NVMe to boot from on my Haswell box. 1 SATA M.2 for my laptop. And 2 x 2.5's as sandbox boot drives.
it takes a jerk to criticise acceleration
All dirt cheap.
OTOH, memory... fucking like...
05:37
@Mysticial server memory prices, on the other hand :-)
your mistake is not using free chips from Intel
@Mikhail "Your argument is petty, so I'm going to repeat exactly what you've been saying."
@LucDanton A jerk is just a strong, short-term acceleration.
w/e I just submitted another research paper made possible by cheap storage :-)
hey, no dissecting my frogs!
@JerryCoffin jerk = F, a force. F = ma, so you need mass
if you have a frog, a jerk from you might give it a great acceleration while it's not the case if it's an elephant
@Telkitty I wish. In reality, I need less mass.
05:48
but attraction (gravity) is positively associated with mass
so if you have the mass of earth, you can even attract the moon, think about it!
@Telkitty If you have the mass of a single proton, you still attract the moon (albeit, to a much lesser degree).
@Telkitty Is that why Catholics all get married and have so many kids?
06:21
@JerryCoffin On the topic of SSDs getting exponentially faster. This leads to an interesting trade-off in terms of the next person who might attempt to break the Pi record.
We're are the point now where CPU throughput is so high (despite all the inefficiencies that I bitch about) that you'd need disk bandwidth on the order of 10's of GB/s to not bottleneck on it. That's almost impossible to achieve with high capacity HDs. But at the same time, getting up to 200 TB of SSD storage on to (at most) a 100-ish lanes of PCIe is also tall order. (putting aside the longevity)
It seems like there might be something to gain from using SSDs as cache. Though, from my calculations with using ram is cache, the performance curve vs. quantity of ram isn't particularly good until you have almost enough ram to fit the entire thing in ram.
Whats the point of cache for sequential write?
@Mikhail That's exactly the problem.
yissss
For an FFT, the # of passes you need to make over the dataset IIRC, is O(log(data / cache)).
Once you have enough cache where you're down to only 2 passes, you can't do any better until you can fit the entire thing in cache.
n log(n)/2, then bit reversal
06:32
For a dataset of 200TB, it takes on the order of 1TB of cache to get down to 2 passes.
So everything from 1TB to 200TB doesn't help much.
in terms of cost $200 TB of storage actually costs more than 1 TB of ram (the sticks)
^ lol look at this chart, notice that "peer review" is guaranteed to lead to the next steps
06:51
@Mikhail Actually, I take back the statement about nothing to gain until you reach 200 TB. Even though you can only utilize 1TB of cache, you can still use any additional fast memory in place of the slow storage that makes up the 200 TB. So if you have 100 TB of SSDs, you can make half of the slow storage fast. But this is precisely the linearity that make a pretty bad performance curve once you factor in the price of the fast-but-small storage.
IOW, having say 32 GB of PCIe SSDs isn't really going to help you much against a 200TB dataset.
Well if its really the FFT following the y'old butterfly model you can do an entire layer in RAM, which certainly better than streaming that layer from the disk...
07:13
@Mikhail Each layer is a pass over the disk until the sub-FFT fits into cache itself.
In the case where the cache is much smaller than the data, that's many layers if you follow the "standard" radix 2 algorithm.
So for the 200 TB with 1 TB of ram case, you do a radix 256 layer on the first pass. Then the subsequent sub-FFTs are all less than 1TB. So you can do them in a second pass.
A radix 256 layer is by no means trivial. And while you can do higher, other factors start coming into play.
Well, I don't know how you wrote your code but I can imagine "fast" propagation steps that can be entirely performed in ram, and "slow" steps that are streamed. Having more "fast" steps is "faster" than instead doing "slow" streaming steps. With more ram you can get a few more "fast" steps...
@Mikhail It's more or less the same thing. In that picture above, you have a 16-point dataset. Let's say the 16 points starts off on disk and your memory is empty. And the goal is to perform the FFT and write it back to disk.
If you can only hold 4 points in memory at once, then you can do the entire FFT by reading exactly 32 points and writing exactly 32 points. (2 read-write passes over the 16-point dataset)
You can do it in slightly fewer than 32 read+writes if you keep some of the outputs of the 1st pass and reuse it on the 2nd pass. But asymptotically (for really large caches and even larger datasets), this optimization is negligible.
07:29
So really your goal should be to convince your employer you need the equipment you're about to purchase
some employers are more generous than others ...
So I'm going to be in D.C. next weekend. What's there to do for fun besides visit Arlington National Cemetery, the Vietnam War Memorial, and the Holocaust Museum?
> I'd be too obvious if the just put a green ogre in [this swamp], so they changed him into a half-naked norn with an angry expression and called him "Mossman" because moss is green.
@DiegoPereira interesting speculation on the origins of the Mossman
 
1 hour later…
09:07
@Mikhail The Smithsonian? Basement of the Ford Theater?
Been there before, any food, bars? etc?
@ago,I updated my question — Alex Luya 3 hours ago
Wow. It takes a special brand of... ineptitude to read "ago" as the user name.
09:27
@wow haha yeah
09:37
> [[nodiscard]] on return from printf would annoy many... But it may make people stop using it, which would be good. :-)
people be evil
C++'s native printing methods are fucked ->
4
Q: Why Boost:Format and printf behave differently on same format string

ToBeThe Boost Format documentation says: One of its goal is to provide a replacement for printf, that means format can parse a format-string designed for printf, apply it to the given arguments, and produce the same result as printf would have. When I compare the output of boost:format and ...

try printing an unsigned char with boost::format
nwp
nwp
10:29
@Morwenn But std::cout has the same issue.
10:53
okay, but table 56 is captioned "basic_­string(const basic_­string&) effects"—so what does the move constructor do?
Sep 7 '15 at 20:44, by Luc Danton
First level of C++ lawyery is to stick to the wording of the Standard. Second level is to stick to the intent of the Standard.
cleary the intent here is to sow chaos & confusion
nwp
nwp
> data(): points at the first element of an allocated copy of the array whose first element is pointed at by str.data()
size(): str.size()
capacity(): a value at least as large as size()
@nwp read the table caption
according to the letter of the standard move is allowed to copy
nwp
nwp
@LucDanton My understanding is that it says that basic_string(basic_string&& str) has the same effect as basic_­string(const basic_­string&). You mean the problem is in that str might change which the standard forgot to mention?
11:05
the wording is incomplete
nwp
nwp
How is this question not downvoted into oblivion? I don't understand SO. /cc@FélixGagnon-Grenier
I think it has the signs of a hot network question and people want get an answer in hoping for the jackpot that gets them 10k upvotes over a year or so.
And me sharing it here made it even more likely. I wonder if people use twitter for manipulating the system.
11:27
k the 'missing' semantics are part of the container specs—or so I presume
@nwp It's not an inherently bad question.
It just seems kinda outdated.
MSVC users are catching up :noel:
12:07
dat language layer question: stackoverflow.com/questions/47136153/…
that’s a dup right?
Surely
Didn't dupe-check it I admit
@nwp it is too broad, and I've started a close vote for it
I’m of two minds, it’s not exactly the same question even though it’s the same answer—oh well
^ That kind of explains why Amazon used Perl a lot in the beginning.
At least I recall that Yegge blogged about this.
12:15
@StackedCrooked even if I thought I was competent enough, that single sentence would drive me away from trying to get the job x)
Yeah. I agree.
Do you like challenges? No
Sounds more like a challenge for a stressful carreer.
Which is a challenge I'd pass for :P
@Morwenn You should live by the advice given by the "takin' care of business" song
(Or "Peace of mind" by Boston)
I remember being really impressed with Amazon back in the early 2000s. The concept of a rating system really helped me to quickly find the best C++ books (Accelerated C++, Meyers, etc..). Also their recommendations used to be really on the spot. (Today they just give you dozens of recommendations that you have to filter out yourself.)
12:19
@Rerito Sounds terrible
I mean, living by the lyrics
It's an ode to laziness and chill
I like it
@StackedCrooked I've only got clothes and CDs recommendations x)
@Rerito Hey, wanna come over for a lazy & chill night? :D
I ordered a couple of business suits on Amazon once. They didn't fit.
Didn't bother to send them back though.
I never once wore a business suit .___.
I did once and it was a mistake. It didn't suit me and I looked ridiculous.
Even the two hired clowns at the event laughed at my clothes.
12:23
> You also need to wear a business suit
> I'm glad this interview was short, thanks
@Morwenn That sounds too Cicada for you
@Rerito How so? xD
@Morwenn That's a silly requirement for a programming interview.
speaking of which where is that insect?
@Morwenn Just add a lenny face and you'll see
12:24
@StackedCrooked Good thing I never had such an interview ^^
@Telkitty Discord
I love wearing suits :D
I'd rather wear skirts than suits :p
@Rerito But... but I said that in a truly friendly way :'(
Lol
@Pouya Your editor doesn't matter. What matters is the product of your labour with that editor.
Use an editor that allows you to do the most good in shortest period. A balance between aid and getting out of your way is important
12:52
exactly, for some that means a full fledged IDE with code completion and powerfull refactoring tools, for other's that's a simple text entry with some shortcuts for pasting out common boilerplate and low latency text input
13:15
Am I a bad person because first thing I checked was that RonaldMunodawafa wasn't the latest Cicada alt?
@sehe To be fair, it could have been a perfectly valid Cicada issued persona
Second thing I had to check was my intuition that "Ex arduis florio" is indeed fake latin.
TBH it seems to be the tag line of proper schools, and wiktionary has added it to "reconstructed" entries.
Sure, I was waiting for this my whole life i.imgur.com/IGcWBUm.png. Reported as spam
13:37
what you are waiting for your whole life is 5 minutes of fame?
thought you had greater ambitions ...
nwp
nwp
@sehe Not if you do it by hovering over the profile picture and knowing the user id.
@StackedCrooked It is kind of a bad question... "Pls show me some good lambdas"
@nwp wow... these are a lot of upvotes. it might indeed be a group of people suddenly taking an interest into this...
@sehe it’s perfectly cromulentus
discombobulating^
@ratchetfreak naw, std::seed_seq is not a class template
15:02
unicorn backs being broken by initializer_list? shocking
nwp
nwp
15:32
Yet another day of me being a noob at C++. It took me like 10 minutes to figure out how people get y = 3.5, 1.2, 7.8; to compile in C++11.
comma operator ftl
the fun part is when the new and the old interact
[&](const char* s, ...) { va_list vp; va_start(vp, s); /* ... */ va_end(vp); }
plz no ç_ç
oh look, gcc complains
> sorry, unimplemented: converting lambda which uses '...' to function pointer
on this code
@Morwenn auto (*fun)(const char*, ...) -> void = [](const char* s, ...) { va_list vp; va_start(vp, s); /* ... */ va_end(vp); };
15:46
@nwp ^^
15:58
1 message moved to Trash can
rules, C++ questions go here
12
It's a c++ code base that I'm working with, does that count?
go to the other chatroom for that
there is always a lurker there ready to answer
It also helps to mention which gui framework you are working with
16:02
@milleniumbug no it's not. I've had success with feedback from that room so I thought I'd post in there as well. But I do see that I shouldn't of posted in two places.
there are a lot of them and each does things in a slightly different way
but yes, feel free to ask in the C++ Q&A room
Ok will ask there. Please delete in c# room if you wish. I tried and deletion is no longer available to me.
ya, it sounds retarded
@StackedCrooked I wish people would be less formal about suits. I think suits really look cool but more than often it sounds the only good looking suits you can buy are the one made by designers.
Otherwise it looks like you bought a suits because you had to go to a wedding and funeral on the same day.
It looks to be really about EMIB, some kind of standard to have customizable components without needing to redesign the entire chip
The big downside to suits is that it's too hot to work with them during the summer
@Mysticial but why - Intel's already invested in that market with their... HD GPUs or whatever they're called; I am mindblown
17:06
maybe to try and avoid claims of them holding a monopoly?
Monopoly is a nice game
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The whole point of Monopoly is to be mean and selfish.
I highly recommend playing monopoly on the S/NES
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The real shortcoming of suits is that neck ties reduce the flow of oxygen to the brain, slowly (or sometimes not so slowly) turning people who wear them into drooling idiots.
@ScarletAmaranth Their integrated shit is exactly that - shit. Only good for running Windows 7 Aero. And even that doesn't exist anymore because Microsoft is a douche.
17:12
so they're basically ceasing their own GPUing, at least for the time being I take it?
@JerryCoffin what if they don't wear ties?
@ScarletAmaranth I have no idea. I haven't been paying much attention to GPUs.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Then what they're wearing isn't really a suit.
aah ok, thanks for your insight! 10/10 will bother you with random crap again
@JerryCoffin then what are they wearing if the only thing missing is a tie?
17:18
@ScarletAmaranth Looks like they're continuing to use their own GPU for the bottom end, and using the AMD for mid-range to higher-end parts.
I guess Intel's gpu design in general sucks so if they want decent gpu perf then they need to outsource it.
it's also for mobile so a small form factor is a must, and the absolute smallest form factor you can get is everything on the same chip
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Obviously, you could just buy a suit and not wear a tie. I don't know of any name for such a thing. The closest thing that's normally designed for tie-optional wear would be a blazer (but, unlike a suit, a blazer is sold alone, so trousers don't match precisely either).
That might be right. I don't remember when I bought my suit if the tie was optional or not. From my memory the only thing that wasn't optional was the pants.
I'm glad I don't have to wear a suit
17:44
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The tie is normally sold separately, but AFAIK, the people who pay attention to such things would frown most deeply on wearing a suit without the tie, at least in general. I doubt they'd really approve, but it is fairly common at the end of a long day of meetings (or whatever), especially if the senior person present does it (first). In this case, it's a reasonable signal of reduced formality.
If, however, you were to (for example) go out to dinner afterwards, you should all put the ties back on and appear in public "decently attired"... :-)
@ratchetfreak Intel could build better GPUs if they really cared. I suspect this is more about business. If Intel could get AMD to concentrate primarily on GPUs, so they'd be a threat to nVidia, and not to Intel that would obviously be a big win for Intel.
@Mysticial well Hell has frozen over
1 hour ago, by ScarletAmaranth
@Mysticial wat? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/11/intel-will-ship-processors-with-integrat‌​ed-amd-graphics-and-memory/
hehe
18:00
I stand by what I said
@JerryCoffin But why now? Ryzen / Threadripper are very successful after half a decade of nothing of value - AMD is not going to switch their focus at this point. It just seems completely arbitrary.
@ScarletAmaranth Almost a decade actually. AMD was in trouble when Core 2 came out. That was 2006.
And they were as good as dead when Nehalem launched in 2008.
Ah, that was when my Opteron 144 was beat for the first time after like 2 years of running with 100% overclock.
@ScarletAmaranth because intel is in trouble
they see a serious threat from Nvidia
from nVidia?
they are technically not even in the same market
18:14
Intel is doing fine right now in the CPU segment. But if AMD beats them to 7nm, before Intel can do 10nm, then they'll be in trouble there too.
what segment are they in trouble in then? I don't think they've ever wanted to actually "compete" in the GPU segment
They've never been competitive in the GPU market.
@ScarletAmaranth Do you mean "why" from Intel's side, or from AMD's side? Intel would do it to distract AMD, specifically because AMD is competitive. AMD would do it because it lets them sell a lot of chips in a way that they don't have a lot of direct price competition, so they can have a decent margin on them.
And I believe their low power line has been having trouble competing with ARM.
yeah - so Intel is not in trouble as far as I can tell
aaah
ok that would explain
@JerryCoffin Why would AMD do it, of course. They have no reason at this point with having competitive lineup.
18:17
I think they tried to penetrate the mobile market multiple times. And failed repeatedly. Despite the manufacturing advantage that Intel had (has had) for so long, it still can't overcome the fact that x86 is a terrible architecture in terms of power efficiency.
I wonder if AMD kept all the ATI people and they have 2 separate branches within AMD
@ScarletAmaranth Depends on how you define the market. Yes, what nVidia sells are basically GPUs--but they're (increasingly) being used for lots of high-end computational loads, not just graphics.
@ScarletAmaranth They essentially did that for a few years, which is one of the biggest reasons why AMD stopped being competitive
AMD stock seems to have taken a dip in spite of zen success (although it started climbing back up finally a few days ago)
everything's weird
@ScarletAmaranth Zen a bit overhyped. In retrospect, it was "just enough" to make AMD relevant again. Anything less and AMD might as well file for bankruptcy.
18:22
@ScarletAmaranth The market for their chips in consoles and PCs has taken a slight dip.
so even though they're more competitive now, they're competing for a smaller market
they priced it well too, I think it's plenty fine - not sure about Threadripper, I find the 2 disabled units EXTREMELY weird - for structural stability o_O - how can they afford to waste so much room
@ScarletAmaranth They have to have disabled dies anyway because the manufacturing processes aren't reliable enough and to discriminate higher chips.
I still find it completely crazy that they can waste 50% of their real estate (in some sense, anyway)
@ScarletAmaranth It's the same socket package as Epyc. Threadripper wasn't really on AMD's long-term roadmap. It was literally slapped together during the engineer's "free time".
the physical space isn't really a problem
18:24
ooo, that's interesting
well it was apparently??? a good move, considering people use it for... multicore-ey things
So it's just (presumably failed) Epyc chips.
AMD lied when they said the inactive dies were spacers. Those are real dies - just not functional.
why lie about that - 1) doesn't really matter 2) people would find out eventually
@ScarletAmaranth Ask AMD. They publicly stated that the inactive dies were blank spacers. So someone took one apart and found they were real dies.
heh yeah
s/eventually/in like two days/
well, all's well that ends well, Threadripper seems to be doing fine I guess
18:31
Here's the thing. Having 4 separate dies means that AMD can bin them separately and make sure they all work before putting them together on an Epyc chip. So why would AMD intentionally use real dies (even if non-functional)?
One theory is that AMD has plenty of non-functional dies sitting around to use. The other theory is that one of the 4 dies got damaged during the integration process. So all they need to do is disable the die on the opposite diagonal and sell it as Threadripper instead of Epyc.
also, a question - PCI lanes on coffee lake - what the fuck?
What about it?
16? seriously? that's a single GPU and nothing else (and I think 4 extra split into a million from the chipest, so one NVME SSD)
AMD showers me with pcie lanes
I'm not sure if it's just market segmentation or if it's limited by the pin-outs on the socket.
I'm tempted to think it's the former.
but that's not enough - their top i7 (8700k) has 16, come on...
18:45
They're basically forcing you to buy HEDT.
i7 is (well, was...) HEDT
It's one of the areas where AMD is turning Intel's market segmentation against them.
Since Coffee Lake was already on the roadmap long ago, Intel can't change it last minute to respond to AMD. So we need to wait until the next cycle before Intel can deliver any real competitive response.
so it's gon' be 8core given the new chipset for "no" reason :P?
well, surely Intel switched to 370 so that their next gen is 8 core?
they were talking some nonsense about power delivery, but an asus guy very explicitly stated that they could have made it work on the older chipset
18:49
Oh that thing. I have no idea how many PCIe lanes it will have. But one for sure will be a problem - 8 cores and only 2 channels of memory.
I really hope the changes they made was in prep to support more cores
19:06
@Mysticial Let's face it: everybody has lots of non-functional die around. I think it' s a fair guess that AMD is getting less than 50% yield on that die.
@JerryCoffin I've actually heard rumors of the yields being in the 90%'s since the die is really small (compared to Intel's monolithic stuff).
But either way, there's still plenty of dead dies.
huh... has less than 50% ever been a thing? isn't that just... unsustainable to say the least?
@ScarletAmaranth It also depends on what you define as a "working" chip. Each die has 8 cores. The Ryzen 3's have 4 cores. So could still sell the chip with up to 4 non-working cores (under other restrictions like the CCX's need to be balanced.)
oh, right, so "not working" needs not be "brick"
Otherwise, Intel's yields on the HCC and XCC dies would be practically zero.
IIRC, Knights Corner has 64 physical cores. But the highest model they ever sold was 61 cores. lol
19:16
:D :D :D
19:31
@Mysticial AMD's using 189 square mm die. I can't imagine them actually telling us their yields, but I'd be flabbergasted if they got even close to 90% yield at that die size.
@JerryCoffin That 90% figure could be including everything that's sellable (i.e. the Ryzen 3's with only 4 working cores.)
@ScarletAmaranth Around 40-50% is fairly typical for a mature line running a mature process. With a cutting edge process, you'd often be happy with half that.
@Mysticial Well, yeah--that would certainly make 90% a lot more believable.
well yeah if you cut the edges off that’s going to be counter-productive
@ScarletAmaranth Let's try to put it in perspective though. The last I heard, it costs around $4500-5000 to produce a finished 300 mm wafer. That has 70650 square mm of surface area. If you're producing 100 square mm die, you can fit around 700 on a wafer, so your production cost is ~5000/700 = ~$7.14/die. If you have 50% yield, you get an effective cost of $14.28/die. Probably double that to cover testing, packaging, etc., and you have a cost of ~$28/CPU.
@LucDanton Actually, dicing is a necessary part of chip production. :-)
19:48
That's... actually more than I expected.
(30$)
@ScarletAmaranth Well, that's assuming 50% yield. At 90% yield, it would be more like $15.
And they can sell for thousands. My local Microcenter has a 7980XE in stock behind the locked glass panel. $2400 not including tax.
@JerryCoffin So I imagine that the majority cost of the CPU is really in R&D and capital infrastructure then rather than actual production
@Puppy Yeah. Same as software. Except that processors are harder to pirate.
20:09
What are you doing not having one 7980XE yourself, Mysticial....
@JerryCoffin spending time trying to cutt off the edges of a circle(ish) is even more conter-productive!
20:35
@Puppy Yeah--you spend a billion designing a CPU, and a several billion building a fab, then you do your best to build as many as humanly possible before it's all obsolete.
@LucDanton Depends. Traditionally, dicing is done with a tiny saw, which pretty much always does straight lines. You can use a laser instead though, in which case circles, ovals, etc., are all possible (though it's obviously harder to fit those together to fill an area).
@ScarletAmaranth Kind of reminds me of the old line about "Why does every enterprise that uses Oracle as their database have to have a professional DBA?" (answer: because by the time they pay Oracle's license fees, they can't afford two!)
It's tempting, but I'm leaning away from it atm.
1. Too expensive.
2. Too hard to find in stock.
3. Thermals are insane. Reliability of sustained 300W+ power draw is currently unknown.
4. Ram is too expensive atm.* (> $2000 for a decent 128GB kit)
*This matters because if I get just the CPU, I'd be displacing a 7900X. Given that I never bother selling my stuff and knowing myself, I'm not gonna let a 7900X sit homeless. Which means that I'll need a mobo/ram + other parts to give it a home.
20:53
@JerryCoffin We had to learn the Oracle tool suit at College.... I'll never use oracle in my life.
Ven
Ven
RIP
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I too have had the displeasure of using some Oracle stuff at times. I guess they honestly do have some good points, but I've yet to see a situation in which they seemed to meet my needs well at all. Then again, my immediate reaction is that I probably avoid the kinds of jobs where it would be a reasonable choice.
It was in 2008 or 2009, may be things changed but I'm pretty sure nothing changed. I don't remember what's the tool name but it's used to make UI for the DB. It's probably called Form something. We had those strange portable IDE hard drives... We installed this tool to the wrong Drive... guess what. Uninstalling/Installing isn't enough to make it work as it didn't clean up windows registry. The easiest way to reinstall it was to reinstall windows along.
I remember we were in class and waited 3+ hours to install the first time..
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I generally think of that as "the Xilinx effect". Xilinx ISE was much the same way--any change larger than a truly trivial patch, and you were best off re-installing the OS.
The only comfort I can find in it is I didn't start my career programming on card board... though I'm sure those time were good anyway
21:01
I don't recall ever having such problems with Xilinx vhdl stuff.
you could always blame the machine for your failures
@JerryCoffin And I wanted to get into FPGA stuff lately.
it's such a pain
@ScarletAmaranth From what I've heard, Vivado is much less problematic (in this regard).
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Go for it. It's painful in some ways, but quite rewarding as well. Biggest pain is getting used to the idea that even though VHDL/Verilog look (and in some ways even act) a lot like programming languages, using them effectively is quite different.
yes, that's definitely something I'd like to get into. From what I understand the programming language is mostly used to define how things get wired.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix You can (and typically do) use Verilog or VHDL to define entire circuits, so when you write something like a = b | c; it's going to synthesize some or gates, with input's named b and c, and output named a (number of or gates depending on the width of a, b and c).
21:13
Has anyone here ever used OpenMP?
nwp
nwp
No. You are the first one.
lol
What's OpenMP? Never heard of it before.
Seriously, guys!
@JerryCoffin yes, FPGA sounds really cool but it certainly has limitation on current so you could probably make an H-Bridge but couldn't drive a motor with it because of current limit.
21:21
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Oh, yeah--you definitely don't wan to drive a motor directly with its output unless it's a really tiny motor (e.g., some MEMS thing).
They day they'll create Power FPGA it will be good time. But I'm definitely looking forward to photonic computers/circuitry
nwp
nwp
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Can't you just drive a transistor that conditionally passes power from elsewhere?
@nwp well yeah, but then the FPGA is almost useless
@nwp That sounds like an if-statement?
nwp
nwp
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix Why is that?
21:29
if you were to use transistors to pass the power, you're effectively making an H-bridge out of transistors.
The only advantage you'll have with a FPGA is that you could control the direction with one wire.
But may be if you have a lot of motors to drive it could make sense if you're using a small MCU to drive 20+ motors
nwp
nwp
I thought FPGAs like processors are just there for computations, not power supply.
they're not power supply
If they could handle higher current we could probably use a single FPGA to build almost any circuit.
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix That depends. You could, for one obvious example, use the FPGA to do PWM.
yes I had that in mind
MCU are pretty limited with PWM, those I have can only generate 2 signal at the same time. If you need to control 5 servo motors things can get complicated
@fredoverflow oooh, it's your own video :P
I'm just catching up on my subs, so only just got to it :P
21:40
I recently discovered that Arduino seems to use the same timer for serial communication and delay. I thought I could stream stepping position to my motors using serial but doing so mess with the delay that control the speed at which I step my motors.
@nwp all I'm saying is FPGAs aren't yet the big black box that can replace anything and leave only a few input/output get to be wired to actual devices.
nwp
nwp
Some years ago people dreamed of, for example, having an excel table be backed by an FPGA that can express the fields and functions referencing fields directly in hardware. I don't think anything like that made it past theoretical considerations.
That sounds insane... why would you want to bake an excel spreadsheet into hardware, even if it's an FPGA?
I guess maybe for the challenge of it, but I can't think of a practical reason for it
@nwp There's a reason for that--with an FPGA you're designing hardware for a specific problem. In the case of something like a spreadsheet, it rarely even makes sense to go to the trouble of generated compiled machine code, not to mention hardware. For an FPGA to make sense, you need a problem that stays fixed for at least a fairly substantial period of time.
The least I can say about that is that the OOXML format is less of a pain to work with than ODF
Generating the XML for Excel is probably the easy part.
nwp
nwp
22:12
@Justin Performance. The idea is that an FPGA that is able to express fields being recalculated continuously and in parallel is faster than a CPU. And that modifications to the fields just updates the FPGA in real time.
Of course you still have to put the data on the screen somehow, and if everything is updated continuously and you don't know what changes that will probably not work out well.
I would be seriously concerned if the speed of execution of an excel spreadsheet is so slow that one would want to speed it up by running it on an FPGA.
yeah.. I think the next step would just be a regular compiled program
@nwp Although I suppose it might be possible to do this, practicality seems limited at best. Much more common would be to accelerate something like indexing data from the web for a search engine, or training some sort of neural network.
@fredoverflow nice pair videos. Thing is, and perhaps It's just been to shitty a day for me to think about it, why is the end state worth going for? I feel like you start with an interface with methods being implemented, got to another way of doing that... but I don't see you explaining why one is better than the other.
23:01
> The Metropolitan Police said it "carried out a thorough investigation following [Ms Hunt's] allegations" and "will always provide support to anyone who reports a serious sexual offence".
I guess then that people who report non-serious sexual offences, whatever those are, don't get support?
23:18
@Puppy Non-serious sexual offense: faking it.
@Puppy It depends on what does support involve.
@Puppy bad logic skills
23:55
Texas church massacre leaves 26 dead because gunman's 'angry at mother-in-law'
talking about bad logic

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