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5:11 PM
Curious: Without looking anything up, how many flags for ls do you know / use?
 
@MarcusAndrews what does that even mean?
 
-ltr
 
@MarcusAndrews a, l, F, h, d, 1
 
-FAhl, -1
I just alias ll="ls -FAhl --color" though, so I don't actually type that.
 
is ls a file folder command for linux command prompts?
it lists the files in the current directory?
 
ohhhh so when Marcus asked for how many flags for _ls_ do you know. He was asking about how many commands you knew when ls is called to the command line? eg.:
_ls -l_ or _ls -h_
I gotcha Marcus :)
 
5:36 PM
cabbages once again folks
 
that title
new user in flask tag, low quality poster
 
Hmm I wanted to determine if the file format from replacing a sub string using regular expression in python was well-known and public, but googling RTDEFINITION just gives me a lot of definitions of "rt". Too smart by half, google.
 
wat indeed
@Kevin verbatim search?
 
@AndrasDeak Ordinarily I'd expect that putting quotes around a one-word query wouldn't do anything, but trying it out I am getting better results now. TIL
 
OK, but there's also verbatim search
it's not bulletproof but it often helps
tools -> click "all results", change to "verbatim"
 
5:39 PM
So you're saying there's something other than quote marks that's more verbatim than quote marks. I really should write these things down.
Ok, I've tried the actual "verbatim" option. The results look about the same as the quote-marked query. Still a useful tip, though.
 
(and I learned about symbolhound two weeks ago from poke)
@Kevin I think there's a difference with inflection/conjugation in free text
 
Hello! Does someone know why flask release version has not hit ver 1 yet? Is it just semantics?
 
Because I haven't released it yet.
 
Lol!
What would Flask 1.0 be?
 
Would a 1.0 release signify an important landmark, or is it just going to come after 0.99? I can see arguments for either one
 
5:48 PM
There are a bunch of changes, I just really don't like writing documentation.
And have no free time.
The current release is stable though, no reason not to use it.
 
I have been using flask for the last 4 years. I love it. The version number thing just occured to me 5 mins ago.
 
It occurs to someone 5 minutes ago at least once a month.
 
1.0 is when it will ship with an actual flask
5
the logistics haven't been worked out yet though.
davidism is almost there
 
It will actually just ship one novelty sized flask to me.
 
haha
 
5:51 PM
You ought to stick that frequently asked question in some kind of page for frequently asked questions.
 
I would like to help but don't know how. Or if I can.
 
Guys I'm making progress with python
 
Oh, you really don't like writing documentation, though. OK, give me write access to the server and I'll make a SKOPFFAQ for you
 
Vert little progress though :D
 
Most work is in Werkzeug and Jinja now, there's only documentation and some difficult / uncertain issues in Flask now.
 
5:53 PM
yam, my laptop decided to hard reset for the second time in an hour :/
 
Hop over to the issue trackers, find a bug that sounds interesting or that affects you, and get debugging!
 
This reminds me, I found a one-letter typo in the Python docs. Maybe I'll double my total lifetime contributions by adding a character in a PR.
 
@AndrasDeak That's a weird laptop feature. Why did your laptop come with that?
 
matplotlib 2.0 and scipy 1.0 were out this year, good year for major version jumps ;)
@idjaw it's a new upgrade, apparently. Straight from the cloud
 
@AndrasDeak Faulty cloud.
Get a new cloud.
 
5:55 PM
Since the kernel logs were gone due to lack of flushing, I've narrowed down the problem to 1. memory problems, 2. motherboard problems, 3. software problems, 4. whatever else I forgot about
I haven't upgraded in weeks so it's probably (?) not #3
 
CPython implementation detail: The current implementation does not enforce some of these restriction, but
                                                                                                   ^^^
 
wim
@Kevin I never thought I'd see you write something so sensible. Bravo!
 
I can determine best practices by taking my first instinct and doing the exact opposite :-P
5
 
is there a word like mansplaining for "congratulating someone in a completely depreciative manner"?
 
wim
I've heard it called "underhanded" or "backhanded compliment"
 
5:59 PM
oh, I forgot 5. that little piece of plastic that's been rattling in the casing ever since I retrieved my laptop from repairs
but I'm sure it's not that
 
Aren't they supposed to provide you a laptop with at least with your old ones specs untill they fix it?
 
6:19 PM
I just fell down the Django rabbit hole
 
he was so young -sobs-
 
I am in deep...and it's awesome!
@AndrasDeak so you are saying you narrowed it down to 1. Hardware problems or 2. Software problems...
 
unless I forgot about something
 
3. Something problems
 
6:29 PM
If it is accepted, you will be an official contributor!
 
"little" :D did you name your bug ?
Kevin already is an official contributor to Python, IIRC
 
The bug's name is George.
 
I guess the bug is sheltered and not really curious :D
 
PR requested
I find the "code on GH, bugs on BPO" weird too
 
Aw geeze now I have to remember how to do that
First, something something branch. Then, question mark. Step C, profit
 
6:32 PM
I usually github fork -> git clone -> set upstream -> create feature branch -> edit -> commit -> push -> create PR on github
 
Is George going to turn into a beautiful butterfly, or is George a special bug ?
 
first...then...step c
so much for parallelism
 
@AndrasDeak I hope there's a big friendly button for each of those steps
 
You have to do it all in binary
 
@MooingRawr bugs don't go through a cocoon phase >:|
 
6:34 PM
with switches
 
Yes they do, it's called QA phase :D
QA = quick automatic-transforming, or something something idk
 
@Kevin you might actually be able to do all that in github, but then github signs your commits automatically. Did you make sure github uses an email you prefer for that?
 
github says I already have a fork of cpython. I'm looking at it and it's 500 commits behind the master. I wonder if there's a nice button for catching up to most recent...
 
there is in bitbucket ;)
 
if you have a local repo already you can pull then push back to the remote
last time I googled for this I couldn't find a better way
 
6:37 PM
do we have a cannon link for "python 2 using input instead of raw_input" causing "<input>" does not exist error?
 
I don't have a repo on my local machine but I could probably make one and there's only a 66% chance that I would mangle the history or something and when I submit the PR they'll say "the change itself looks OK but if we merge this it will blank the last ten years of commit messages because you didn't do git --reticulate_splines back in step 4"
Let's see if Past Kevin has any useful liveblogging from when he submitted a PR in May.
I see a moderate amount of random flailing was part of the process.
 
Oh, I found a link to answer my question
 
Hmm, if I delete kms70847/cpython entirely, that won't remove the PR I made in May, will it?
 
if you made it from that repo yeah probably
 
when a PR is merged github actually offers you to delete your feature branch on remote
 
6:43 PM
I don't want to pull the tablecloth from underneath the fragile glassware that comprises the master branch
@AndrasDeak Yeah I think I saw that option and I think I chose it which is why I'm surprised that the branch is still here
 
which I usually do, so even though my fork exists, my PR is unaffected
@Kevin is it your feature branch for your last PR?
ah, the unittest improved error msg?
 
deleting the branch isn't the same as deleting the repo though
the branch is just a name
 
hmm, I guess
 
I don't know what a feature branch is so I can't conclusively answer that question
 
but then the PR as far as I know belongs to the target repo, and when it's merged it just becomes a commit in the target repo
@Kevin before you submitted your PR did you commit to your master branch or did you create a new branch to keep your 1 commit for the bugfix?
in the latter case that dedicated branch is called a feature branch
 
6:46 PM
I may have created a new branch.
 
:)
anyway, I'm not sure enough to tell either way
 
In which case that's the one that was deleted, and not kms70847/cpython
 
The way you'll not mess with history if you create a new branch from the current master, probably. That way your commit will be compatible with the current master, and merging it will be effortless
@Kevin that's quite right, your repo stays there
crepe emergency, I'll let the more gitty fellows assist :P
 
Ok, since deleting this repo from the github page might unravel all of reality, I'll try just updating it so it's level with the master branch.
I'm dumb, so I'll use the git gui interface to clone the repository to my local machine.
Cloning from github.com/kms70847/cpython
Working... please wait...
 
(git clone https://github.com/kms70847/cpython target_directory)
 
6:51 PM
Ok, I'll do that instead. The gui seemed to be hanging anyway.
 
then check if you're on master with git status
then git fetch upstream should get all the commit info from the official cpython repo to your local one
 
Oops I think closing the gui put its clone in a half-finished state so now git clone from the command line fails and I can't delete the seemingly empty cpython directory.
I may need to reboot for this one
 
Try git nuke
 
then git checkout -b NEW_FEATURE_NAME upstream/master should create a new branch based on the official cpython master branch, which is what you'd want
after which you'll be on branch NEW_FEATURE_NAME
so subsequent work and git add filename and git commit will commit to that branch
then when you're done git push --set-upstream origin NEW_FEATURE_NAME should push your local branch to your remote (github) repo by the same name
and then when you look at your github repo, you should see a banner telling you that you are ahead of the official cpython repo and you can issue a PR if you'd like
 
Ok, folder's deleted and clone is running. 2%... 3%... 4%...
 
6:55 PM
usual caveats of listening to me apply, but I've done several runs of this in the past 2 months
 
Ok, cool.
 
I am probably doing this in the worst possible way ever cuz I have no idea what I am doing...
 
Standing up in a hammock?
 
I can't even sit in a hammock
but no...I'm writing tests fora Django app
and I just learned Django yesterday
 
My hammock-sitting-in success rate is at a comfortable 80%
 
7:00 PM
time to ask "anybody know django? I'm a new user"
 
teach me all you know, experts!
 
Don't take any wooden nickels.
 
teach me all the things
 
@Code-Apprentice weren't you trying out SQLA just a few days ago?
 
@IljaEverilä Yes, I was doing some sqlalchemy recently. This is the nature of my current job.
thanks for answering my question
 
7:05 PM
@Kevin also, fun fact: the matplotlib guide above suggests that you delete your local master branch entirely, because it only causes problems when you accidentally commit to it. Since you're only ever going to branch from upstream/master, you don't need an up-to-date local master to begin with
 
git strikes me as a firm proponent of "there's more than one way to do it"
 
@Code-Apprentice Now that you've some experience of both, how do they stack up in your eyes?
 
@Kevin well, I do think it tries to adhere to the Linux philosophy
 
If the matplotlib guide says I can delete my master branch, then maybe I could have deleted my repo without unraveling reality. Oh well, too late now. the clone is already at 70% anyway, should be done in ten minutes or so
 
@IljaEverilä I don't think I have enough experience yet to compare. Also, django does so much more than just database queries.
 
7:07 PM
In the future, I would be very keenly interested in a way to submit PRs that does not require me to put anything at all on my local machine, because my net connection is two tin cans connected with twine
Old timey newspaper boys all yelling morse code to one another
 
I don't even have twine
just some ratty yarn that my sister used to play with
 
@Kevin but deleting your repo is a github thing, not a git thing, so who knows
I don't expect all the PRs of a repo to depend on the eternal existence of every other repo that issued PRs there, but github wasn't written by Linus
 
was your PR from May merged yet, Kevin?
 
I think it was, yeah
 
@Kevin also, I think part of that is due to convenience functions (like pull = fetch + merge), and other examples (like rebase vs merge) actually lead to the same state with different histories
 
7:10 PM
if it was merged already, then deleting your own repo will not affect anything. The official CPython repo will have all of your changes.
 
Ok, so the PR history won't magically go from "submitted by kms90847 from kms90847/cpython" to "submitted by [deleted] from [deleted]"? Because I want future generations to look upon my works and despair
 
@Kevin I can't even find a "create new branch" in github, so your plan might be doomed from the start
 
@IljaEverilä p.s. I was using sqla alone, not in conjunction with flask
 
Past Kevin got this working once, somehow, so I know it's possible. For certain definitions of "it"
 
Just go to the branches thing on the main repo page
then type in a branch name and click the "create new branch" that shows up
or probably hit enter
then you can edit stuff right in the browser
and finally, make a pull request
nothing local required
 
7:14 PM
> Mariatta merged commit 9c972b5 into python:master
> Kevin deleted the Kevin:patch-2 branch on May 31
 
@Kevin I mean that the code changes are permanently a part of the official repo after the PR is merged. How GitHub displays things on the PR page, I am not sure. It seems to me that it should still show your contributions.
 
If you just want some smaller stuff: stackoverflow.com/a/2587244/344286
 
and now I must hide chat from myself cuz I'm not getting my work done...
 
@WayneWerner ooooooh, that's awful UX
 
@Kevin if you want to know how github works just make a repository and then fork it
 
7:16 PM
thanks for the tip
 
@WayneWerner Hmm, I don't think I have that button.
 
@Kevin that's on the upstream cpython repo
 
is that your repository?
 
you can do that on your own repo
 
because you can't do it on someone elses :P
 
7:16 PM
which if course raises the question whether you can fork via the web from upstream/master
 
@WayneWerner No, it's github.com/python/cpython
 
or whether you can sync remote/master with upstream/master via web
 
@Kevin well, I'm guessing you don't have the commit bit ;)
 
@AndrasDeak you can make a PR from upstream/master to remote/master
 
oooooh, nice!
 
7:17 PM
Ok, so I can make a branch if it's my repository. I think I knew that. What we've been trying to do is get my existing cpython branch, which I made six months ago, to have all the changes that got made to the master branch in the six months between then and now. We concluded that I can only do this by cloning to my local machine, pulling from the master, then pushing to my branch.
 
there you go, Kevin :P
 
I don't know if it just shows it for me, but it says
 
@Kevin make a PR from CPython to your repo
 
7:19 PM
> This branch is 2 commits behind saltstack-formulas:master.
 
Shows for me too
 
@Code-Apprentice Ok, I clicked "New pull request" on github.com/python/cpython. I don't see any obvious button that would refer to my repo.
Oh, maybe if I click "compare across forks". OK, there's my branch.
" python:master is up to date with all commits from kms70847:master. Try switching the base for your comparison. " Weird, shouldn't it see that there are thousands of differences because I'm 700 commits behind?
 
no, because it's trying to merge you into them
it needs the other way around, I guess
 
Ok, I'll transpose the boxes... There we go. 1,045 files changed.
 
right, you need to PR from them to you
note that the "base" is you
 
7:24 PM
Ok, I guess I just write a title like "catch up to master branch" and click "create pull request"?
 
that should do the trick
since it is your own repo, you can write whatever nonsense you wish
no one will see it nor care all that much
 
OK. "This branch is 1 commit ahead of python:master. " Weird. I figured it would be 0 commits ahead.
 
maybe someone committed in the time it took you to make and merge the PR
 
or the merge made a merge commit rather that a FF
 
oh...that's much more likely, yes
PRs always make merge commits, afaik
 
7:27 PM
I thought there was a way to avoid that... but maybe not
I know you can from the command line
 
or by default at least...there might be an option to do FF merge
 
just not sure from Github web
 
me either
 
If the Cpython people don't care, then it makes no difference to me
 
well, have fun with your git mayhem. I gotta get back to work with some django
 
7:29 PM
Ok, branch pluralization_fix created and file updated.
Now I go over to the real cpython master and do a PR, I assume
Ooh, my "catch up to master branch" commit is visible in the history... So much for "no one will see it". Let's see if anyone cares.
 
when you merge you've gotta probably rebase and merge I think
 
kb shipped
so excited :O
 
> Some checks haven’t completed yet
1 failing, 1 pending, and 1 successful checks
Oops.
 
7:44 PM
check out the details, the other day I had 4 failing checks in a fairly trivial matplotlib PR
often master is failing to begin with, on 1 out of 5 python versions or something
 
"No news entry in Misc/NEWS.d or "skip news" label found". I don't think I have permissions to add labels so I will twiddle my thumbs until someone comes along and does the needful for me.
 
yup
 
[it's happening .gif]
 
nice collection of labels there
 
Soon the docs will be tainted once again by the works of my foul hand
 
7:49 PM
@MarcusAndrews what did you buy ?
 
never heard of a iKBC.... let me know if it's any good.
 
fancy
 
No macro keys but eh still really good price for a MK that lights up.
 
devguide.python.org/pullrequest says "The commits will be squashed when the pull request is merged" so maybe after review the "catch up to master branch" commit will no longer be visible. That would be nice.
 
7:52 PM
I try to avoid the extra macro keys (personally)
 
is there a reason for that? I find macro keys to be super useful for specific things.
 
Hard work is its own reward
 
In my experience the macro keyboards tend to feel cluttered and cumbersome to me
 
Do let me know if your keyboard's lighting is programmable , if so that would be a killer deal
I'm trying to look for a keyboard that would light up based on my hp pool in certain games :D
 
7:59 PM
That would be sweet.
Also like the throw chaff button glowing when a missile locks on, reload when clip is low...and similar
 
I think your average triple-A multiplayer game works quite hard to prevent that kind of information from being available to any other part of your computer
 
I have zero idea on how to do it, so learning how to hook into dlls for information during a game might be fun.
if not I might just run a screen cap and have a image recolonization program (which is less fun)
 
It's a hop-skip-jump from "light up this button when the bad guy is aiming at you" to "automatically execute this inhumanly fast series of serpentine maneuvers when the bad guy is aiming at you"
 
@Kevin I saw someone doing it for BF4, so I wonder how / if it's legal.
 
8:01 PM
@MarcusAndrews will click when I get home in 2 hours
 
I don't think it's programmable directly but it just has several modes and you can change the colors
 
I want a game that encourages you to make a bot and provides a real nice API exposing everything a human could see on the screen
 
@Kevin I dont care for lock on, I just want personal status report that the ui already displays too me.... hp bar, ammo/mana bar, stuff like that
There was a game at E3 one year that tried to do that or rather something like that. It allowed you to modify source code to play the game. I don't remember what happen to it nor did I see any news about it
I think the demo they had at E3 was "Oh look there's a gap here and we have to cross it" -types something along the lines of "render land size * 3" - "Oh look the gap is no more"
"Oh our character model won't fit in that gap, we can widen the gap or shrink our hit box"
I guess it's not the same as what you want Kevin, but still similar line of thought.
 
tutorial level could just be pong or something
paddle.x = ball.x
harder challenge would be a slower paddle so the x-setting technique no longer works, so you have to be a little better at how you move the paddle
 
why not just set the paddle's length to screen size? dont need to deal with moving :D
 
8:10 PM
this would be a game where you write a bot, as opposed to editing source code
 
Oh you're talking about Kevin's game
 
(if you're editing source code you may as well just set yourself to win even when you lose, which is less compelling)
or just jump to the final victory screen
 
That is only if you know the final screen's source id... which I'm sure you can find it.
I remember there were bot writing competitions for games like Dota or starcraft.
 
hi, does anybody have a python trivia of the day
 
Are you asking if we know any Python daily puzzle sites ?
OR are you asking if we have a random fact about Python for today ?
 
8:13 PM
@Kevin You might like some of these: hackerrank.com/domains/ai/ai-introduction
 
2nd one :D
 
hi
i have a problem dividing a big number with 2
13661827623841655514816
 
whats the problem?
 
/2 gives 6830913811920827973632
in python
in java it give 6830913811920827757408
which is corrct
any idea what could go wrong
 
In python when you work with super large numbers the accuracy goes down as your number grows bigger. If you want to use huge number calculations use the module Decimal ie: repl.it/Lnc2/0
 
8:22 PM
@MooingRawr thanks for my trivia of the day
 
Or actually I think you can just do 6830913811920827973632//2 in Python 3
But I dont remember if that was cuz of the rounding they do somewhere along the line of calculation. Maybe someone else can speak up about it....
 
// is in python 2 right
that was because 2/3 would give 0 and not 0.6......
 
Both are them are in PYthon 2 and 3
just different function in each of them
213
Q: In Python 2, what is the difference between '/' and '//' when used for division?

Ray VegaIs there a benefit to using one over the other? In Python 2, they both seem to return the same results: >>> 6/3 2 >>> 6//3 2

 
/Decimal worked
but now I am not able to multiply big numbers
 
@BeardAspirant @MooingRawr is explaining this a bit roundabout. The issue is that / is float division in Python 3, and float division is in general inaccurate at extreme numbers. In Java and Python 2, / is integer division, which just happens to work for the even number example you gave. In Python 3, // is integer division and you'd see the same behavior.
 
8:30 PM
And this is why I wish not to be alone :( thank you davidism :D
 
The answer is still "use the decimal module for accurate non-integer division" though.
 
I know the answer just don't know how to explain myself :( still working on that life skill.
 
/pat @MooingRawr
 
funny thing is, in University, we had to take a communication course (it was mandatory for all computer science majors); sometimes I wonder how bad of a communicator if I didn't take that class, seeing how bad I am currently lol... Or maybe I just didn't learn anything in that class
 
DSM
Aaargh. A certain NumberFirm policy meant that someone set up a certain system as RHEL 7, and it's an incredibly frustrating environment to work on. All of the official packages are archaic. :-/
 
8:36 PM
i think i failed my linear algebra exam
now im really really stressed
 
linear algebra is fun
 
yeah , i used to find it fun
 
decimal.InvalidOperation: [<class 'decimal.DivisionImpossible'>]
 
DSM
characteristic polynomials for everybody!
 
but this exam was about lines and geometry , and I generally suck at that
the funny thing is, i am into machine learning , and I assumed id do decent
 
8:39 PM
I suggest you learn C the easy way and get another book! — Antti Haapala 56 secs ago
that's not that often that I see people using LCTHW...
but man that book is at least twice as bad as LPTHW. The very first example contains code that has been a constraint error for 18 years...
 
@BeardAspirant what are you doing ?
 
online test on hackerearth
 
Not what I meant but okie....
 
ohhhh
:D
job
 

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