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8:27 AM
And in SQL Server they're moving forward too. R incorporated, now Python possibilities, and they even start considering Linux a real OS :-) Microsoft is growing up.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/review-sql-server-2017-adds-python-graph-processing-and-runs-on-linux/
 
9:08 AM
@JorisMeys we've had PL/R for umpteen years. Hmph.
 
I know, I know.
On a completely unrelated note, this is an interesting thread on R-pkg-devel: stat.ethz.ch/pipermail/r-package-devel/2017q3/001896.html
Feed some code a tibble instead of a data.frame, find out it doesn't really work, report as a bug to the package developer. Interesting question from Goran for sure.
 
9:44 AM
sf spatial classes fail in a similar way, because subsetting a column returns a spatial object rather than a vector.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:00 AM
@JorisMeys Yep, I received quite a few of those bug reports when dplyr::lag first masked the stats::lag generic and prevented method dispatch.
 
11:17 AM
@JorisMeys Strange how that isn't such an issue with data.table which can create the same problems. Are data.table users on average smarter than tibblies because they realise that if they don't pass a vanilla data.frame they can't expect that functions that only support those always work as expected?
 
@Roland My experience with the data.table maintainers is that they're much more interested in preserving the "is-a" behavior.
 
@JoshuaUlrich fun <- function(df, col) {stopifnot(is.data.frame(df) && is.character(col)); df[,col]}; fun(data.table(x = 1), "x")
 
@Roland I see your point. Could be as you say, users know data.table is different and cast before sending to functions that expect a data.frame.
 
11:46 AM
@JoshuaUlrich I don't. I often run modeling function on data,table objects and don't think I've had issue. It does a fair amount of correct "is-a" work as you said.
@JorisMeys I still like the line from the initial post: "And when the next guy introduces 'troubles' as an improvement of 'tibbles'
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@DirkEddelbuettel We need is_something_that_returns_vectors_when_subsetting_a_single_column(x)
if the function in question is foo(df,...) isn't the solution to write foo as an S3 generic and have foo.data.frame and foo.tibble (which converts to data frame and calls foo.data.frame (and maybe converts the return value back to a tibble))?
 
12:46 PM
In all honesty, I think this is up to the people writing a package to decide whether or not they make it tibble-compatible. I was a bit taken aback by the proposal of an R++ with tibbles replacing data.frame. One can say a lot for and against this, but my first thought was "then why not just put the tidyverse in Julia?"
 
It's a user error. The modeling functions expects a data.frame object. So the user ought to call with as.data.frame() or rely on some good luck, or benevolent developers.
It would appear that these days we're running out of luck, and benevolent / accomodative developers.
And by that I point "upstream" (as just about nothing is ever wrong with the troubleverse according to their makers) and not downstream (where it is now forced upon poor and friendly souls like Goran)
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Yes, but the whole discussion is about tibbles claiming to be of class data.frame. So, technically, the user is right in expecting it to be acceptable input.
 
1:07 PM
Yes and no. They are being mislead though. You cannot claim "is-a" and then change behaviour. Because then you are "ain't-a".
 
1:27 PM
@JorisMeys Yes, although the real culprit here I think is that S3 dispatch does not respect the search path. In other words, a call to [ from a package that does not have tibbles in its search path ideally would resolve to [.data.frame, not [.tibble or whatever that is.
 
@BrodieG That's not true. The first element of the attribute "class" is "tibble", so it should resolve to [.tibble. That's why the method exists. It would resolve to [.data.frame if [.tibble would not exist. But it does.
(the first element is "tbl_df" to be exact)
 
@JorisMeys Think of it this way: my package X implements fun subset and uses it internally. Package Y implements subset too, and exports it. Functions that use X::subset internally (without the X::) won't care one bit whether Y is loaded or not, because of the namespace/search-path mechanism. This breaks as soon as the functions are S3 methods. All of a sudden you run the possibility of unexpected code evaluating depending on what packages are loaded. This is terrible.
I guess subset is a bad example b/c that itself is an S3 generic.
s/subset/some_random_fun/
 
2:09 PM
And now the good Dr Wickham joined the discussion, stating forcefully, and as predicted here earlier that nothing is his fault.
 
@BrodieG Again, not true. If your package X implements subset and uses it internally, and you load a package Y with subset exported, your package X will still use the subset of package X. That's what namespaces were invented for. If you don't export it, nobody can use X::subset, they can only use X:::subset. And they shouldn't, especially not if they want to put a package on CRAN
There are indeed cases where you might run into conflicts, eg if you depend on 2 different packages with a subset() function. And for S3 methods for the same class but differently defined in 2 different packages, you might also expect trouble. But that's a problem of R itself, and has little to do with the discussion about tibbles not being data frames.
 
@JorisMeys That's precisely my point. But the mechanisms are different with registered S3 methods. Suppose I have structure(list(1,2), class=c('table_df', 'data.frame'). Now the result of operating on that object will depend on whether I load a package that defines methods on table_df, or not.
 
@BrodieG ah, then I misunderstood you. Yes, that's indeed the case. But I don't see how that is "disrespecting the search path". I would consider that a consequence of how the search path is defined in R. potato potato I guess :-)
 
@JorisMeys My question is why should methods be exempted from the search path constraints that apply to normal functions. I don't see much benefit from it other than creating a vector to inject code in other people's functions, which frankly is actually a bad thing.
And leads to stuff like what's being discussed in R-devel.
I guess another benefit is that is is easier to implement, but that's a bad reason to do it that way.
 
2:27 PM
@BrodieG because they're not normal functions? You can't have methods without some mechanism that takes care of the dispatching from the generic. The search path is partly defined by the order in which packages are loaded, but dispatching is defined by the class of the object, and that goes in every language that has some form of OOP
@DirkEddelbuettel hehe. Sometimes he's a bit overly sensitive :-) But in all fairness, I can't begin to express the amount of hatred I feel for that drop = TRUE default. So I understand his decision for the tibbles.
 
@JorisMeys Sure, but the dispatch mechanism could in theory look for methods defined in the search path only (note for packages this order is fixed by the import directives). This ensures package writers can use s3 methods with deterministic knowledge of the dispatch that will result. This seems like a really good thing to me.
 
2:47 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel Hadders is saying "use foo[[N]] instead of foo[,N] and we'll all be happy."
 
@Spacedman He does have a point there. I teach my students the same thing actually for about the same reason. And it makes sense too, data.frame is a special type of list, not a matrix.
 
3:19 PM
He was once a med student. Methinks that may have quite over his objection to "First, do no harm.".
In all seriousness, everybody made good points. But he still tells everybody that "see, your code breaks now because of mine" and claims it is a good thing.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel He is saying he has license to break things because he is making things better, but it feels like he does not put as much value on finding a way of making things better without breaking them (e.g., tibble extends list, not data.frame...).
Sure, now you can't use them with legacy code that's expecting things that behave like data frames and check for them with is.data.frame, but that's probably a good thing.
Also, how long until we get [[.table_df that returns a tibble because why would you want anything else anyway.
 
3:39 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel He's not saying that. He's saying that IHHO tibbles are better and safer, and which work in 99+% of places where data frames work currently, but which comes at the cost of not being 100% compatible with data frames. He feels that's a good tradeoff and one the user buys into if they use tibbles. This is all user error & no reason to bash Hadley yet more.
 
@BrodieG I will continue to take the other side of "having legacy code break (unexpectedly to boot) is a good thing".
We do extensive reverse depends checks on all important packages to avoid precisely this kind of breakage.
 
All this arguing when the simple solution is to tell the user "Don't do that!. Use df <- as.data.frame(df) then carry on your way.
 
@GavinSimpson That's what I tell my students. Hadley just said this is "suboptimal advice".
 
@JorisMeys Well, he's entitled to that opinion because that's how he views behaviour of [.data.frame. Unless he's going to rewrite all the legacy code to use [[, what's suboptimal in his opinion need not align with what I or anyone else thinks is sub-optimal.
 
@GavinSimpson I am NOT bashing Hadley, or tibbles. Djeezes, I'd expect teenage girls to be overly sensitive, but I get a bit tired of every comment on tibbles or tidyverse been seen as an attack. This is a genuine problem that effects package developers and users, so it should be discussed.
 
3:47 PM
@JorisMeys In case you missed it Joris, that was a Reply to Dirk. He won't see it because he's being childish and has me blocked, but I'm ignoring that. I did not say anyone else was bashing Hadley, just Dirk's specific comment to which I replied.
 
And I've now reiterated multiple times in the thread I do NOT want tibbles to function differently. That's not the point. The point is the notion of tidyverse users that tibble and data.frame are interchangeable, and they are clearly not.
 
@JorisMeys Which Hadley acknowledges up front
 
@GavinSimpson Since they are not 100% compatible it's worth asking whether they should extend data.frame or just be their own class (note, same can be said about data.table, but data.table at least tries to check that a package is data.table aware and downgrades to data.frame methods when they are not)?
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@JorisMeys I don't know why you think I'm having a go at anything you've said in this thread or over in r-pkg-Devel?
 
@GavinSimpson I misunderstood you, my apologies.
 
3:51 PM
@BrodieG I didn't say it wasn't, and a good chunk of the thread over on r-pkg-devel had construct advice on how to approach this that other developers can learn from. Here we have similar discussion conflated with Dirk's rabid obsession with defecating on the tidyverse from considerable height
@JorisMeys No worries :-)
 
@GavinSimpson and I see your point as well. Discussions on the tidyverse tend to become personal pretty quickly, and there's no need for that. Code for all, all for the Code!
 
@GavinSimpson has Dirk still got you marked "hide" in here?
 
@Spacedman I don't know, ask Dirk
 
@GavinSimpson I think this all boils down to the level of effort that should be put in to maintaining backwards compatibility, and the frustration particularly apparent in this chat room that that level is pretty low for the tidyverse (e.g. exporting filter, this whole data frame behavior change !!, list goes on). You could do a lot of what the tidyverse stuff without breaking things, it's just a little more work.
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And I can sympathize with how this turns into frothing rage when this disregard for backwards compatibility results in issue tickets for your packages that take the trouble to regard it.
 
@Spacedman Of course I do.
 
3:58 PM
@BrodieG functions trampling over other functions is quite common in packages, it's just bloody obvious when Hadley does it because so many people use his packages. I also disliked the masking of filterand lag etc.
I personally think tibbles are just fine. I am frustrated that they place low priority of fixing the bad decision to put this in dplyr that pull out only a little bit in tibble
So now as a package author wanting to use tibbles you either have to import a pile of stuff from dplyr or convert to data frames internally to do simple operations on an object. The whole reason for tibble was so you didn't need to do this but other stuff is more important to them than completing that job.
 
@GavinSimpson I think trampling on the default packages is bad form. You can't completely avoid trampling across packages, but does someone really need to use a function name also used by stats or utils or base?
 
@BrodieG I meant other packages masking stuff from base R of the default packages. With however many thousands of packages there are now on CRAN, you can't avoid reusing words from those packages.
It's not ideal but developers have to weigh up what is worse; masking, masking with different defaults or default behaviour, or trying to find a synonym for the word you really want to use
Just on practical grounds, I just think this is nigh on impossible to avoid at this stage
 
@GavinSimpson In my book: masking a default/base function and changing semantics (as filter does) is really bad and should always be avoided. Failing to find a synonym is reckless lazyness. If you keep the semantics then that's better (e.g. devtools::help). I'm not concern about masking functions from other packages, though I do try to avoid it if I'm aware of it.
 
@BrodieG why should I find a synonym for filter or lag when they are such common operations on time series but, esp in the case of lag work in such a counterintuitive way? I can see the argument that breaking a couple of things that you can clearly document may not be such as bad choice, given the alternatives of finding a suitable synonym.
 
regarding making [.tibble attempt to test if the calling function's package is "tibble aware", it just seems like a basic level of courtesy. maybe data.table's cedta ("calling environment is data.table aware?") is hard to maintain or otherwise suboptimal, but c'mon

and, serious question: why does he override [.data.frame? the whole point of dplyr was to give us these modern "verbs" that we use in lieu of old-fashioned [. use those verbs and you don't have to care whether drop=TRUE is default
 
4:11 PM
@GavinSimpson Because base R took them first and finding synonyms is easy. If everyone felt comfortable using "base" R words loading packages would become a minefield.
 
@BrodieG What synonym would you suggest for lag()?
 
re namespace conflicts, i mean, go ahead; it just means i'll never load the full package, at least not in R. once the 'verse has migrated to a new language (as seems to be the idea), no problem
 
shift
@GavinSimpson which educationally is what data.table uses.
 
@BrodieG or capital L (what i saw in class), though that might not jive with the other function names
 
@BrodieG backshift was best I came up with
 
4:14 PM
As soon as I've written my tidyverse GUI this will all be pointless anyway....
 
I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but if you asked people what shift or backshift did (and didn't restrict yourself to statistician, or time series experts), I'd say they'd have a harder time remembering that than lag.
 
@GavinSimpson I'd say that if you don't read the docs for any of them you won't know what any of them do. The idea that you can convey the full semantics of a function by its name is fool's gold, and leads to unnecessary namespace clashes just because to different people feel that that one word is exactly right for their two different functions that do different things.
 
@Frank He doesn't override [.data.frame, tibble registers [.tbl_df which takes precedent as dispatch on [ looks for a 'tbl_df' method first. None of this is in dplyr now anyway
@BrodieG There's a difference between having knowledge of a function's "full semantics" and having an idea of what the function does. I don't recall what a lot of R functions do exactly but I have a pretty good idea about many of those from their name.
 
@GavinSimpson Yes, but you probably either read the docs at some point, and/or used them, from which point forward you have an association of semantics to name. Provided the name is not completely whacky re-establishing the link when you see the name later is sufficient.
And I believe you can always find a synonym that will be close enough to allow the link to happen.
Without trampling on base function names.
 
In all of this, there's a lot of personal opinion. That's fine; one can disagree with the position taken, or argument of, another developer. What's causing the trouble in these discussions is the failure to see this from the other person's perspective and the vitriol that ensues.
 
4:23 PM
@GavinSimpson Of course. I do wish the discourse was more civil.
I certainly try to keep it that way on my side.
 
@BrodieG if choosing another name causes additional uncertainty or cognitive dissonance in my users, I may well weigh the pros and cons differently than you. That doesn't mean I'm more or less right than you.
 
@GavinSimpson WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG ;)
 
@BrodieG :-)
 
@GavinSimpson In case you can't tell I'm always game for an argument.
 
4:28 PM
@Spacedman heh, it's pretty easy to bait me.
Also, just have to lol that for Dirk the past hour of this chat room is basically just me talking to myself.
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@BrodieG Hah! (It's probably quite wrong that I find that so amusing...)
 
@BrodieG Still preferable to the alternative.
 
Another reason to gripe at the Discourse system - it overwrites Ctrl-F for its own search box rather than my browser's search-in-page shortcut
 
@DirkEddelbuettel You really are an insufferable pillock Dirk
 
@Spacedman @DavidRobinson probably designed it.
 
4:41 PM
@BrodieG Tempted to suggest emacs in a massive thread on "Can I haz python in my RStudio" on the rstudio community discourse site
 
@BrodieG Doubt that. It would make better use of whitespace then. And contain way more ggplot2 use.
 
@GavinSimpson Thanks for the new (to me) word: pillock
3
Had to google it
 
@joran good old anglo-saxon
 
@joran It's all too easy to fall into the trap of always using the same old tired cuss words. Which is a shame because the English language is stuffed so very full of a range of insults suitable for a range of occasions
 
@GavinSimpson Perfect, we won't have namespace clash issues with our insult packages.
Though there will be some fights over the primo ones.
 
4:48 PM
@GavinSimpson true that. And it becomes even better when passive-agressive Victorian insults are added to the mix. I love the Brits for that, I will surely miss them in our cosy EU. I'll let myself out now...
 
@GavinSimpson sure, that is what i meant. he wrote something other than [.tibble = [.data.frame, even though any user of the tidyverse should stay miles and miles away from [] on tables if they are following his grammar (whether the tibbly definition is in dplyr or wherever) -- overriding [.data.frame in this way is gratuitous. if you're using tibbleldies but not adopting 'verse grammar, what's the point?
(you can say i'm misusing "override", but i think you know what i mean)
 
@Frank I'm pretty sure Hadley doesn't expect many tidyverse users to be routinely using [, but i) those users do have to work with base R, ii) some of those users are developers. [.tbl_df isn't part of the main grammar, it's a technical detail to insure consistency (from the tibble perspective).
 
@GavinSimpson I can't help but point out the irony of this last statement.
 
Your argument here @Frank is really stretching things; it's bordering on the absurd
 
heh, well, the wrong kind of consistency to be introducing, imo. granted, i will never have this problem as i'll DT = as.data.table(tibbeldy_doo_dah) as soon as i get close to one
 
4:55 PM
@BrodieG perhaps it is, but it is needed to achieve Hadley's goals for the function. I don't have r4ds here just now, but I doubt he spend much time on [ methods compared to the actual grammar he intends users to use
 
@GavinSimpson wait, what? it is absurd to expect that if you live in the 'verse you use it's grammar? the value-added of the 'verse is entirely from its grammar, or are you distraught over my use of "override" to mean "replace the behavior of"?
 
@Frank Your argument that [.tbl_df in some way contravenes the principles that Hadley espouse is absurd.
 
Where does one file feature requests to have blocks extend to replies to a blocked person? Asking for a friend...
 
@GavinSimpson i did not say that. i said that he defined verbs for accessing tibblies and the correct way to access said tibblies is through those verbs. that was the entire point of dplyr; that was the entire point of every "grammar of" package he has designed
 
@Frank valud opinion, but Hadley and co did try to make legacy code work with tibbles. I would have personally mimicked [.data.frame exactly, even though I hate the dimensions dropping. Especially since one isn't supposed to use it apparently. But his package, his choice.
 
4:59 PM
@JorisMeys That's the irony. If the only purpose of [.table_df was to ensure compatibility and not the primary interface to the tidyverse, then, well...
 
@JorisMeys yeah, it's fair play to do it that way, but i'm just saying it seems unreasonably discourteous to his users and poor pkg devs that have to get complaints from them. that's all
 
Maybe I should fork it in a tibble2 package :-D
 
@Frank and I quote: "even though any user of the tidyverse should stay miles and miles away from []", and "if you're using tibbleldies but not adopting 'verse grammar, what's the point?" That's absurd. Show me where Hadley says users don't need [?
 
@GavinSimpson I think it is the "routinely using", as you say. Since it isn't a primary interface, and it is there for compatibility (I'm just going from what's said here, don't know the actual motivations), then it would probably be worth focusing on compatibility rather than on concerns with existing semantics.
 
@GavinSimpson Hadley does insist on using the list way though, and I agree fully with that.
 
5:03 PM
@Frank "discourteous" to both his users & other package developers? WTF! Show me where Hadley held a gun to this user's head and said run your tibble through eha? Hadley and co aren't responsible for users doing silly things. This is my problem with some people here; disagreeing about design decisions is one thing, attacking them is quite another. Discourteous, my arse!
 
@GavinSimpson the entire selling point of the package is to insulate you from [. cran.r-project.org/web/packages/dplyr/vignettes/dplyr.html it is a "grammar of data manipulation" and most adherents would regard [ as a curiosity or "advanced" feature that no one needs to know unless they are building a package
 
@BrodieG IYHO...
 
@GavinSimpson heh, and who has vitriol?
@GavinSimpson with data.table, CEDTA means that when a user loads data.table with another package, usually any complaints about incompatibility will come back on data.table rather than the other package's developers. that's a nice thing to do; that is what i mean
 
@Frank when you accuse someone of being "discourteous" for merely writing software, that's going to far and you deserve criticism. I don't see where I'm being cruel in being critical however?
2
@Frank You can't blame Hadley if a user complains to another pkg developer about tibbles not working with that particular package. Go shout at the user
 
@GavinSimpson "pillock", "absurd" (initially said with no further explanation as a plain dismissal), "my arse" -- i'm not saying i mind it; i'm not the one calling for civility here. i welcome argument and appreciate your points and your taking the time to explain them
fwiw, i can think of few criticisms milder than "discourteous." my meaning is "you could have done this nice thing to avoid creating trouble for others, but it looks like you chose not to"
 
5:08 PM
@GavinSimpson Hadley does have the tendency to be overly optimistic about the robustness of his work though. I was surprised about his last remark in the r-pkg-devel thread...
 
@Frank I think the contrast with data.table is interesting. They do try to avoid the exact problems that tibbles are causing.
 
@Frank and yet without provocation you accuse Hadley of being discourteous? I stand by absurd - wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate - as being an accurate description of the argument you put forth. And Dirk is being a stupid person and if I choose to respond to his passive aggressive attitude that has nothing to do with my tone or approach used in other aspects of the discourse here
 
@BrodieG And really excel at doing so.
 
@GavinSimpson The word might be too strong, but there is a lack of consideration in choosing to break existing semantics.
 
@GavinSimpson i initially said "just seems like a basic level of courtesy" and then shortened that to "discourteous" in the course of our back and forth. i don't think hadley himself would take as much offense at it as you have
 
5:10 PM
@BrodieG I think "lack of consideration" is the one thing Hadley can't be accused of here. He clearly considered the impact of his design decision, he was upfront about it from the very beginning.
 
@GavinSimpson "willingness to overlook unnecessary compatibility problems caused by his package"?
 
@Frank The issue is that "discourteous" is a description of the person's intentions. You can critique design decisions, but why do you feel you need to imply anything about said persons intentions?
 
@GavinSimpson is it about intentions? do we really need to parse the word so finely here? me and you, the guy talking about his arse as part of the discussion? i mean, maybe another time
 
@BrodieG I would say "overlook" is incorrect - he's not ignoring it. Also, "unnecessary"; clearly Hadley doesn't see that as "unnecessary", in fact it is plainly obvious he sees it as necessary given his design goals.
@Frank yes, we do, because if you look at the recent history in this room, what might have started as snark has turned into full-bloated attacks on certain developers. In the context of one msg you may have a point, but when in the context of the recent direction some have taken this room, I think it is needed
2
@Frank Apologies if you didn't like my use of "my arse" - that's the northerner coming out in me, where that phrase is in common usage
 
@GavinSimpson "Prioritizing a secondary design decision in a compatibility interface over compatibility with existing semantics"?
 
5:20 PM
@BrodieG For tibbles, I'd say "Prioritizing a primary design decision in a compatibility interface over compatibility with existing semantics"
 
@GavinSimpson heh, like i said, i don't mind, and even prefer flavorful language; but i'm not up for parsing english with you right now. point taken re not criticizing those who aren't here to defend themselves (and those who know a lot more about language and package design than me); for now, i'll leave the "oh no, you used word x" discussion there.
 
5:52 PM
My girlfriend found this exchange highly amusing, but it kind of destroyed the idea she had about data scientists :-)
 
6:08 PM
@BrodieG Was that necessary?
 
@DavidRobinson No it wasn't necessary, but also joke about our design preferences made in the spirit of "I wouldn't mind if that joke was made on me". I'm sorry that it bothers you, but glad that you are willing to come here and point it out.
So that I shan't do it again. I'm not trying to be antagonistic.
 
OK, fair enough
2
 
@DavidRobinson And also TBH I think it is a shame there aren't more people from "the other side of the aisle" that are willing to come here like you are, although I do understand why. If anyone is looking for a friendly argument... (in the distance, Dirk reaches for the "mute brodieg" button").
 
Just throwing this out here for much-heat-little-light discussion: abseil.io
Looks like other languages (cough, cough) care about forward/backward compatibility.
But heck, we're data hacks so we let any self-appointed dude break legacy code ...
 
6:30 PM
@BrodieG I hear you! :)
 
@BrodieG tbh I think the "snark level" tends to have driven some people away
2
 
@joran Luckily, they all found a happy home under the rainbow at community.r.c
 
@joran I understand that, but part of the reason there is so much snark is that there aren't many from the other side, so it's easy to get caught up in the echo chamber.
 
@BrodieG Which is the chicken and which is the egg in this metaphor? ;)
 
@BrodieG You think Dirk will lay off the tidyverse rants and sniping at their new community effort if only more of the tidyverse devs were here to put up with it?
 
6:36 PM
@GavinSimpson No, but if that tidyverse dev were to come here and mute Dirk I think we could have a productive discussion, and most ppl here would lay of the snark a little. Sorry Dirk for throwing you under the bus a little.
 
It's not like I've written any of this stuff and I'm reconsidering why I bother hanging out here
@BrodieG The problem with muting Dirk is that, in amongst the snark & rudeness, he actually has useful things to say. Which is why I haven't muted him in retaliation
 
@BrodieG Sure, but the level of anti-tidyverse snark (however much of it may be meant in jest or good fun) and more significantly the absence of significant pushback when it happens would tend to make this spot not very welcoming for certain folks, I would imagine.
3
More to the point, I don't think the people you're referring to actually want to debate the tidyverse
 
@joran I'm lamenting that unicorns don't exist.
 
@BrodieG I take exception here.
 
@joran You mean tidyverse users, or people in this chat room?
 
6:41 PM
@BrodieG I mean tidyverse "people", either devs or outspoken users
I think that it would be pretty clear to someone like that that hanging out here would be at best tiresome, in that it would attract a lot of ribbing and arguing that they probably aren't really interested in.
 
I am personally very happy that community.rstudio.com exists and covers the "how do I connect with sparkly" or "how do I pile a kitten". It may well keep SO more focussed.
 
OTOH, I'll talk about unicorns all day. That's something we can ALL agree on, no?
 
Ditto here. We set this room up years ago to allow a few like-minded people with a clue to coordindate some (much needed) cleanup work. And have some fun with snark.
It is absolutely the room for an informed discussion. I have just given up on a few people who can never seen beyond some rather stark limits. Witness Hadley today in the r-p-d discussion thread.
He still thinks he is doing people a favor breaking existing code.
It's as if we never had the discussion about what went wrong with filter and lag.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I guess I'm more into the meta discussion part of it, an while I think snark is fun, if I can get people willing to engage thoughtfully on the discussion I'm willing to cut back on the snark.
 
What appears to be your "snark" often descends into attacks and at that point it's no longer fun. That you can't see this is entirely the problem Dirk
 
6:46 PM
And at that point ... I usually turn away because time and attention are finite, and at some point it is just not worth repeating the same point ad nauseum.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I really don't get the low value he places on compatibility.
 
@BrodieG Which is in such strong contrast to the rest of the R ecosystem starting with R Core. Yet he is the popstar who "wrote R and created RStudio" (I'm joking here but you get the drift) and adored by countless fans who take him as the reference setter.
 
@BrodieG I like his explanation at 12:45 in this video, about the tradeoff between "Utopian vs Conservative". That is, between "fix mistakes" and "people are relying on that behavior, keep it the same". Base R by its nature is conservative, which is a good thing, but in his packages he likes to slide to the "utopian" side.
 
The Stanford talk? Yes, that was ridiculous :)
It is a fair dichotomy. But just like @JoshuaUlrich and I sometimes argue, nobody who values a productin system should let the troublesverse anywhere near it.
 
@DavidRobinson I definitely understand why he wants to do it, but it is unfortunate when the effects spill out outside of the tidyverse. Personally I think this is actually base R's fault for not respecting namespace/searchpath in S3 dispatch, but that is just a fact of life.
 
6:56 PM
There is such a well-earned reputation for breaking their own releases. Yet what do the kids start with these days. Yeah.
 
@DavidRobinson In other words, build utopia on an island, not on top of filter and lag.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel packages come with no warrants from the R core team. If the user is dumb enough to load a package and expect its modern objects to work perfectly well with legacy code, he should be Ripleyed, not defended. ;-)
 
@JorisMeys I think you are confusing a no-warranty clause in the GPL with a rather well-heeded process, both for base R and of course CRAN.
But it is to troubleverse's credit that one of the ggplot2 releases (of yore) lead to a hardening of the process. See, we all get better quality now :)
 
@BrodieG I think the reason I lean utopian is that because R use is rapidly growing (upcoming blog on that subject) I expect the vast, vast majority of R use in history still lies in the future. This is the time to make such tradeoffs. People who use R in production (we don't at Stack) have a different set of tradeoffs, and there are tools (packrat, checkpoint, etc) for handling those.
 
Nopes. I don't want versions frozen. I could stick stuff in Docker. I do want new releases and new features and bug fixes ... without breakage.
Others can deliver that. The troubleverse decides that its refusal is a feature. So I tend to use it less. (That said, ggplot2 2.1.* is decent now. Just got to be patient sometimes.)
 
7:10 PM
@DavidRobinson I think utopia and compatibility are not ... incompatible. Undoubtedly it is a little more work, and sometimes inconvenient, but that last part is not a reason to break established semantics.
In the case of filter and lag, think of synonyms. In the case of table_df, build on list and have as.data.frame be the compatibility interface, not [.table_df. Or if it must be the latter, preserve the semantics so that it is indeed compatible.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel dplyr is 0.7.whatever now. That's a beta version. I never expected backwards compatibility from a 0 dot something version. If users do so, they are to blame.
 
Puhhhleeaazeee. Version number semantics are for blowhards. Rcpp is 0.12.12 / 0.12.13 pending. Does that mean you can't use it? Come on.
 
I teach tidyverse very sparsely exactly because they break stuff all the time. It irritates me too. But roxygen and devtools help me a lot.
2
@DirkEddelbuettel unless you up to 1.0, I won't excpect code for 0.12 to work in 0.3. There's a reason it's not 1.0 You tend to be thorough on the details, so don't tell me that means nothing. Rcpp rocks by the way.
 
As we say, choice is good. To me, devtools is an obfuscation layer I can do without (having written packages for 15+ years) but roxygen is indeed helpful for Rd creation. Won't let it touch DESCRIPTION or NAMESPACE.
@JorisMeys It means less than nothing.
We've been at this since November 2008, going from 0.6.0 to now 0.12.13 pending. Just add 1L if you must.
Gmail is probably still in beta too.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel then why not commit to 1.0? Make it a stable release, have some pride in your work
 
7:26 PM
File a PR if it makes you happy. My not make it 10.0? I'd be ahead of Java too.
 
That would be cheating. You're not Microsoft I hope. Their version system is mysterious at best.
 
@JorisMeys Coming soon, Rcpp Me
 
@JorisMeys No it's not. Just skip version 9.
 
0
Q: How to check if everything is okay?

Simon OsipovRookie mistake here. I did install Homebrew and pip on my mac, but there were some complications during installation. For example, for pip I got Permissions denied. I went Google and found "sudo - H" solution. But there was some message regarding disabling of wheel and log, and I accidentally qui...

 
@Spacedman Better yet, make like the big Fruit Company and call it Rcpp X (but pronounce it "ten").
 
7:39 PM
"The iPhone X, or for people who know roman numerals, the one-phone ten"
2
 
@DirkEddelbuettel Is his "Data Science From Scratch" book about this scratch.mit.edu
 
8:14 PM
Different topic. Does anybody know of a tool, or package, or gist, or ... to go over a code base and establish "who calls whom"?
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I remember asking this on R-help about 15 years ago...
 
I think Gabor wrote something for Mango Solutions that builds the graph for an R package
 
22
Q: Generating a Call Graph in R

SpacedmanI've been given a big chunk of poorly formatted monolithic R code with plenty of functions, and I'd like to work out what functions call what functions. I thought I could use roxygen's @callGraph stuff, but a) the code needs to be in a package, which will be a headache with this code, and b) it...

Includes an answer from a D Eddelbuettel...
 
8:34 PM
Ah, yes. Foodweb. I looked at that recently.
We have a few dozen packages here written by different people and we need to find a better way to document, organize, ...
 
@DirkEddelbuettel CodeDepends looks like it does something close to what you want:
 
@JorisMeys Hadley moving the goalposts, I see.
 
@BrodieG Yes, that old SO question (with my answer with a now-defunct link) lead me to CodeDepends. That could be useful. Thanks!
 
8:52 PM
Thumbs up for CodeDepends::makeCallGraph("somePackage")
 
9:13 PM
Not sure if it helps with the 'crossing package boundaries' though :-/
 
9:25 PM
@Spacedman that was Hadley not reading the start the discussion I guess. Ah well, he's defending his baby.
 
@JorisMeys I was going to jokingly dare you wrap that single function up in a package and submit it to CRAN.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:54 PM
This is deja-vu... I asked about this long long ago as a counter to the YesWorkflow markup. I wanted automagic c.f. github.com/yesworkflow-org/yw-prototypes
 

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