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6:12 AM
@ShixinZeng At this time you can't flatten an arbitrary block to XML, it's mainly designed to work with existing documents. Do you have an example of what you're trying to do?
 
6:34 AM
Someone posted at Gitter a short message about Luna as an example of how to attract investors nowadays - news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14612680
After Eve, seems like another new language with nice visuals ....
 
@pekr I don't so much these days want investors. I want users.
 
Well, I am just trying to compare Luna, Even, Red, their visual representation (Lua's site is just great). They seem to be rather new, try to win its users over, so it is interesting to watch and compare ....
 
I want @Brett's time bug fixed, I want @draegtun's pipe bug fixed... if this is a project that serves users, and the users can use it, then that can work out.
@pekr Well it's worthwhile to clone any effort that works, but that means figuring out what you're doing that is novel, I have a forum post in progress to talk about it.
I think things right now are going very well in this branch of the Rebol effort. A branch I might think some people, might have bet against existing today...
And I don't think what we need is investors, just plain old users.
 
 
6 hours later…
1:01 PM
@rgchris It's a block in the format of output of load-xml:
tree: xml/load-xml/dom {<Project Label="text">}

a: make tree [
tree: [
<project> [
#Label "test"
]
]
]
tree/flatten worked, but a/flatten did not
Basically, I wanted to write an xml file, and I was trying to use the flatten in xml.reb as my encoder, because I like to write in the block format more than XML directly.
If it can't do this, then I guess I have to write the XML file directly
 
 
5 hours later…
6:03 PM
Hello rebol people what's coocking ? I never come to stack overflow to chat and so I missed a someone confused and thinking HostileFork is me... So hum he isn't. And that's great. Hostilefork you forgot some import stuff to be me you should have beard, glass, speak french, english, spanish, japanese and give a damn about r3 ... ;) Well that last one was to make clear I m not an inposter but the true brand.
 
@shadwolf What apparition is this? :-)
Well, if you are interested in learning about the state of things, there's a lot of news.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:55 PM
@ShixinZeng I'll add this to the requirements. Don't see why it shouldn't be possible to create a new XML instance from a block such as this: load-xml/dom [<project> [#label "test"]]
I could see it resolving get-word! values as well. Down the line, should be possible to do loops too but that is getting into the realm of an evaluator and I'm still not certain the best way to implement that type of thing in dialects:
load-xml/dom [
    <project> [
        foreach [part value] [#this :this #that :that] [:part :value]
    ]
]
 
@HostileFork shadwolf/sarcam on Hum like a r3 that is not in alpha stage ? ... shadwolf/sarcasm off
 
Has anyone written anything on building dialects with some evaluative behaviour? I know @Brett has worked on things like this and Gabriele built a parse rule generator. (this is a question I always come back to but never seem to resolve)
 
@shadwolf Given that it is now open source, it will be finished when you finish it... or, else you'll have to wait for other people to do it.
 
HostileFork people was telling me that even before r3 ... And my reply is where is the monney ?
 
@rgchris I've often wondered whether, if in a dialect if you don't have any other ideas for GROUP!, if it should implicitly COMPOSE.
 
8:06 PM
@HostileFork It doesn't quite scratch the itch and still is reliant on the full DO environment.
Would like something self-contained.
StyleTalk example: <tag> 10 blue loop 5 [15 red] (not much point to this, I guess in many ways it works the same way DO does, except when it encounters integers (outputs WIDTH), keywords (outputs e.g. COLOR), tags (new operative element). Preprocessing might be one way to do this, but how would you distinguish 10 (width value) and 5 (loop value)?
x: 5 <tag> blue loop :x [15 red]
 
8:31 PM
@rgchris I don't really understand what this is doing... it's generating CSS with repeated portions? What's the CSS you're trying to make?
 
Would be equivalent to <tag> 10 blue 15 red 15 red 15 red 15 red 15 red
 
If you don't have any tailored needs that generic preprocessing doesn't fit, it seems a generic preprocessor is the best way of doing such things. I don't know.
 
It's a contrived example, but I get the sense that writing a custom evaluator is possible. Just not sure where to start.
Or to use an XML example:
items: [
    2017-06-22 "From Yesterday"
    2017-06-23 "Is Today"
]

build-xml [
    <feed> [
        <title> "A Blog"
        foreach [date entry] items [
             <entry> [
                  <title> :entry
                  <updated> :date
             ]
        ]
    ]
]
Mixing dialect with flow.
== [
    <feed> [
        <title> "A Blog"
        <entry> [
            <title> 22-Jun-2017
            <updated> "From Yesterday"
        ]
        <entry> [
            <title> 23-Jun-2017
            <updated> "Is Today"
        ]
    ]
]
It's my inclination this is possible, just not sure which way it could be implemented.
 
8:54 PM
@rgchris You find this kind of thing in templating languages, e.g. django
Usually it's a domain constraint to explicitly not want generalized calculation in the templates
So they limit you to a few things
 
@HostileFork I see that as a potential feature, but then there's only really the constraints you as a designer place on it. And you could still use GROUP! to evaluate Rebol code as well.
It is that general idea though.
 
I had a weird idea in Draem, where you could put in calculations in GROUP!... and it would try and evaluate the thing once to build a static answer, but if you ever tried to access something in the data model it would throw a particular signal (throw "data model not available") or somesuch.
Then, any GROUP! that didn't throw that signal would be assumed static
So it would produce a partially-evaluated template file, that would have any dynamic code left in, that would be assumed to need the server running
 
9:17 PM
@HostileFork was reading this blog.hostilefork.com/rebol-state-union-june-2015 and before that I was thinking it was a mess... well it s even worst. So what can be done?
 
@shadwolf I suppose I should write a new article about where things are at now. We're standardizing and Atronix is working on the same codebase as me now, we have several people working actively on a daily basis, there's a build farm, we can build for Android and JavaScript etc.
 
routine! and struct! are not in r3 because it was tied to the way r2 interfaced with C shared libraries to extend rebol capabilities with C code but being able to transmit data from and to rebol
 
There are many interesting language features, enhancements, bugfixes etc. But I've really only focused on that, while keeping the dependency footprint small, in the spirit of the project's inception. But I'm waiting for Red to lead the way in the standards and documentation of a GUI dialect.
@shadwolf We not only have STRUCT! and routines now, but we also have something called "user natives"..‌​.where we embed a very small C compiler into the Rebol executable, and you can write the code for a function as a string of C.
 
load/library was the reason for struct and routine and some other type load/library was r2 pro stuff. I agree with the need to have a strong r3/core and a separated gui module. you added to this another layer and then another and another ? and then the garden went crazy forest ?
 
@shadwolf If you aren't aware, Atronix uses Rebol 3 for their Zooming Operator Environment, and we've been merging our separate branches over time. The intent is we will have one Rebol 3 core, used by all people who use Rebol 3... which has historically been a small enough number of people that I anticipate we will not have a problem with this goal.
 
9:26 PM
you don t drop complexity inserting more complexity
why c++ and not java ?
 
@shadwolf You don't participate usefully in a project you know nothing about.
If you think Rebol cannot connect to things that are complex, then it will likely never be used. I invite you to throw away your Windows/Linux/OS-X and insist Rebol only runs on a specialized OS that doesn't have any "complexity"
The core extraction is such that we are pushing most things to be optional, and making the core fit with that. e.g. FFI, routine! and struct!, etc. not being built in necessarily. You can make a build that has it statically linked, or you can make these things into modules that load as a DLL when you need them.
 
nope I know rebol can ... and because that was our way to deal with limitations in rebolpro like in the past decade .. like I want my cool rebol script to be able to interface with mysql but odbc stuff is locked in rebol/pro so I will write a dialect using the tcp to send my needs directly to the database server.
then pro was abandonned odbc was free to use and so no one used it or rebol anymore ... go figure
but then what is core and what not ?
 
Well, we have an ODBC extension under development in R3, it's currently being tested and should be usable in the not too distant future. But even so, I'm not really sure I feel like supporting you as a user. Maybe you'll have better luck with Red. :-P Go talk to them: gitter.im/red/red
 
does network layers are /core matters or not ... and that kind of debate was already ragin in AltMe and it was borring as hell ... it was all about mezzanine not in mezzanine
it was an example I don t claim odbc is of any use ... people should learn to use networks basics and write decent dialect!
the goal in my opinion is to have the more portable possible r3 ... which offers core functionality and some other basic stuff like network operations... I dont even think a /core should nest a http server ...
 
We are aiming to streamline the core evaluator that makes it easily to repurpose. Things like networking or graphics will not be in the core. Already codecs have been moved out.
 
9:36 PM
I think r3 from carl was already a mess ... it was a I give you all the package do whatever and chillout
 
Uncategorized on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
This eliminates the cryptic and error-prone REBCDI*-based interface for codecs, switching to instead consider a codec to consist of three separate functions (with appropriate type signatures) * id...
@shadwolf I have a lot to say on the problems with R3-Alpha. But for whatever it's worth, much progress has been made: docs.google.com/presentation/d/…
 
@shadwolf still stirring the pot huh?
Did we ever finish that IRC client?
 
hum like old lovers ...
graham chiu nope but I made of it some really cool irc bots
 
Nice .. just need to port to r3!
 
Graham Chui you never end a project it s always perfectible you can always add more features
Graham nope what is r3 ?
 
9:42 PM
Are you mainly on the french rebol forum these days?
Or did they boot you? :)
 
I pass there but it s mostly completly dead
drained to somewhere else by red ...
 
And why are you not with red too?
 
Graham probably cause I am too stupid for that ...
red is for award winners I am just current standard folk
 
@shadwolf Doc is pretty unforgiving if you ask simple questions :(
2
So, you come here to get a status update?
Or pitch in to help out?
 
my simple question was why red when we need rebol ... and when r3 is open sourced just a year after he started red ..
 
9:47 PM
@shadwolf well, clearly Carl was not deriving income from r3 so he had to take a job
 
I was on another duty had to log to stackoverflow to post a stuff and then saw that joker mistook hostilefork for shadwolf which is not a good thing to do for poor hostilefork ... it s even quite insulting
2
 
And so also he then had no time to develop R3 ( which was in a bad precarious state )
so, to maintain some type of legacy, all he could do was open source it
 
graham chu but he never tryed ... indi gogo, kickstarter, where not existing that we already proposed to carl to make rebol feature financed
 
@shadwolf he was old school
 
and to begin with noone wanted r3 most of the community wanted r2 to be fixed up and the cool new stuff to get more than week attention ....
 
9:51 PM
but if you look at the r3 source code, fixing r2 was likely going to be too much work
So, the new start
And likely there was licensed components in r2
 
we told carl dude fixe that stuff bring more to /pot and rebcode and rebplugin and other great stuff
 
anyway, the past is past. No point in going on it again.
We had an aim of reaching r2 parity which we are close to now
 
and carl said "nah it s too complex lets start over a new rebol without anything "
 
And he did it again, he's started on r4
anyway, what do you want from us that we can help with? We can't help with Carl's decisions.
 
rebol/desktop was such a great stuff ... serriously like a webrowser but you could run and share script so easyly ...
 
9:53 PM
If you help, we can do it all again.
 
ouch serriously r4 ? ... /me face palm with a yeti hand
 
Yes, R4
Maybe R5 next year. Who knows
If you want to stay in touch, we have an english language forum.rebol.info
 
if you need me than I means it not going to be done ... I already tryed when r3 intended to be slow open ... I never when past shit there is a binary blob in the middle of the r3/gui implementation flip the desk and went berzerker on my pc ...
graham chiu I was really really distent after my altme ban ... And for those who wonder no I am not an alcoholic I just wanted people to federate and make rebol grow. I wanted people to discuss and implement features to rebol not only posting bug tracks ...
or trying to find way to deal with bugs overrulling them
 
we are trying the best we can do here
 
yes and that is great nothing else to say ...
 
10:01 PM
So, we are implementing features as the need arises. Bu the main aim is to try and reach r2 parity ( without the gui ).
 
and that is fantastic ...
 
somethings are missing as no one has asked or thought important
the GUI will brought back to life by Atronix - though just as gobs. Have to build your own widgets unless r3-gui or similar is ported
 
this is the difference with carl ... carl has a vision ... he don t see most of the use of the stuff he implements but he see the importance in implementing ... example he wanted a fast way to do Gui programs he did VID then he wanted to make the image support better people told him about agg negociated the adoption of agg lib to rebol and then we had vid agg but carl when implementing this didnt think he had made a sand box to allow stuff like ritch text rendering ....
or he would have revamped the font manager too
trello is a great tool used it alot
or that VID draw agg could render SVG animations and other stuff ... and think of it. It was like 4 years before inkscape first version. Today you can t think vectorial drawing witout thinking inkscape
I think rebol core concept is be minimal ... (which he was not in the network area ...)... but if you think rebol is a sand box for networking then you should have a set of low tools and then you write dialects to operate TCP UDP ICMP other network protocols or even write your own network protocols
some time the be minimal concept was over the way to use the stuff and some time it was over the way to implement the stuff ... For example VID its a minimal dialect to make whatever widget or window you want ,,, it s minimal because it s done using a simple concept there is a window that window has content and that content can receive user events ...
that content can be drawn and set better looking with another dialect draw ...
 
the simplicity hit a roadblock in terms of implementing complex GUI apps
 
see minimal way to think ... in networks it should have been the same but then he changed the focus in network what is important today is not the raw protocol its commong thing that TCP UDP won the battle I will not reopen it so those are what I call network basic then u have those bricks you can use to build over an irc server a http server a mail server a whate ever application level you which server ...
but then you get people that says hum ... I wish I could have network a bit more lower level sand box because I want to be able to use easily icmp stuff ...
hum ... I think VID/draw/AGG was making the coffee pretty neatly
but yes complexity of porting that is the deal ... in an ever evolving linux even X11 raw code isn t sure to be able to run 5 years later ...(Wayland ?)
 
10:19 PM
are you drinking too coffee?
 
who don t ? app dev = coffee drinker
"making coffee" is a french image to say" it was fulfilling the task "
 
so what do you want to happen that can be done by a non-red community?
 
it s complexe if you are alone and if you have step out progresively from your portage goal
Hum anything ? starting with r3 is dead now we offeryou rebol community which will be driven by the core ṕhylosofy "keep it simple"
graham where have you seen r4 ?
on rebol.com we still have this REBOL/Core 3 Builds (alpha, unofficial) ... serriously can t it be rebol 3 donated to the world get there to get a new release
 
No one has seen r4 except carl. He mentioned he was developing r4 with a new approach
 
oh ... well he can play with rebol as much he want no ?
I think the most elegant feature I ever saw in rebol was the either branch
either calls in your mind directly without a doubt for a if the condition is done you do that and ifnot you do that ... compare with the if /else mechanic or even the if then else mecanisc where you some time have to scroll undred of line of code to know if there is a counter part to the first statement either give you right away the needed information
 
10:34 PM
that's just poor layout
I can't see that either has any advantage
 
either and foreach where what most supprised me when I learn rebol ... and foreach today is common way to see loop in many other programing languages
either is great like I said it tells you hey it will do something and something else you can be absolutly sure about that
while if not always has an else ... and when you read code from someone else it can be tricky to get to the else ...
if { ton of code if (){ ton of code } } else ... if I see the first if and then want to know if there is a counter part then I search an else keyword but then that else is related to the if I was initially seeing or is it related to another nested if .. shit I have to scroll back ...
with either I am spoiled ...
 
Going out .. later
 
ok see you
will try to get my intrest for rebol up
but basically what I liked about rebol was writing scripts doing rebol understanding it see the world through another lense. just parse is sutch a different tool ... regexp my but use rebol parse
 

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