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12:00 AM
@sehe how does he keep getting speaker slots at cons
 
By copying lots of reasonable things not too badly.
 
I'd say someone should do that to him, but it's like jpeg compression--after a certain point it's completely terrible
 
Oh. I've seen talks that succeeded at that.
 
oooh, that is a neat utility you linked in your comment on your answer to Incoherent Cheater Guy
 
@jaggedSpire :) Yeah. It's a simplistic building block, but one that's sorely missing from many places.
It's basically RAII meets multi-threading/signals.
 
12:08 AM
@jaggedSpire He is a member of the committee, which (I guess) gives at least a little bit of credibility.
 
@jaggedSpire I was sparring here with Luc when it ... happened. I think:
Jan 7 at 1:56, by sehe
I can use all of c++14, Asio + coroutines, yet it's proving tricky to make sure shutdown goes well
 
@JerryCoffin huh. TIL
@sehe thanks for the link
 
Ah no. That was unrelated. That was when I had separate io_services and they needed to coordinate their shutdown too. Well. Related anyways
Jan 7 at 2:42, by sehe
That's where the _rpc_server_live.observe_lock() does its dirty magic: http://paste.ubuntu.com/23755818/
Let's see how it evolved. Some testing has been received since then and I'm sure I deffo removed 1 large bug and 1 compromise (documented as a comment).
Also, added shared_lifetime typedef
I'm going to head to bed. Night all!
 
night!
 
@sehe G'night.
 
12:27 AM
@sehe night
@jaggedSpire Kitty team! /cc @Morwenn @Ven
 
@Borgleader d'awww <3
 
@Borgleader holy shit
 
@Borgleader what an excellent birb
 
12:42 AM
It took me a while to truly understand how to use various layout on (ios/android) phones apps
from now on, I will start using maths models to position various buttons/image/text/text fields etc
simple maths models :x
 
math* models
 
meth
 
Actually, I wanted to post something else, but this will do
 
Ell
mathl models
 
@Mikhail still chewing on some wild cucumber?
 
12:48 AM
Actually, I'm trying to reduce the round trip latency between USB_COM->Thorlabs LCC25->Arduino_AC_PIN->USB_COM. Somehow COM latency is around 25ms, before the voltage source actually switches. If I can't get it down, time to build my own high amp/power source, and drive it with an arduino shield in some hilarious fire hazard prone manner. All I got is duct tape, scissors, paper clips, and a few old PSU sources.
 
And buy life insurance.
 
can't take it with you
 
Buy life insurance on the identities of your other multi personalities
 
1:06 AM
@Borgleader :D
 
@jaggedSpire I want to hug it, plz let me hug it.
 
I know, right? so cute.
 
@Borgleader this is what happens when you assume behavior with signed integer overflow
 
@Rerito I seriously need to reconsider what to do with my life, market access is depressing.
@LucDanton Ce qui me choque le plus c'est qu'il n'y a pas une seule faute !
@sehe Sommerland is a meme at this point
 
1:18 AM
 
good lord
 
it just keeps getting better the longer you look
 
1:44 AM
@rightfold @sehe good job
 
 
3 hours later…
4:35 AM
@SpongyFruitcake tiens un truc qui m’intéressait depuis un moment : Avez-vous entendu parler de la Commune de 1871 à l'école ?
 
4:53 AM
Can i ask a C question? or is this strictly C++
because i'm having a pretty shitty time with pointers, most likely using them wrong
 
 
1 hour later…
6:06 AM
@LucDanton Première fois que j'en entends parler
 
dingue, régale toi
un de mes auteurs préférés a souvent fait référence à l’évènement et je pense que sans lui j’aurais oublié
 
6:24 AM
@Mutch95 It's still okay to ask, but here: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/116940/c-questions-and-answers
 
Eh ben, c'est un sacré morceau d'histoire.
 
user1804599
@SpongyFruitcake Yep, classic HEMA
 
user1804599
HEMA being antisemetic is well-known.
 
reddit bloqué ici messieurs, ca parle de quel évènement de la commune ce fil de discussion ?
 
Mélenchon en 1871
 
6:29 AM
@Rerito la Commune de Paris de 1871 proprement dite : est-ce qu’on t’en a causé en cours d’histoire ?
 
voui
 
c’est apparemment pas le cas pour tous (ou ptet plus sceptiquement parlant, beaucoup ont oublié)
 
ouais enfin a part l'année et que c'était guerre civile à paris je sais plus du tout de quoi ça cause
 
> Début 1780, de curieux phénomènes sont signalés dans les caves environnantes du cimetière des Innocents : les exhalaisons provenant de la décomposition des cadavres sont si importantes qu'elles filtrent à travers les murs et éteignent les chandelles de suif.
@Rerito De toute façon, pour moi des Parisiens qui s'entretuent c'est tout bénef
 
@SpongyFruitcake Pour moi aussi, ça fera moins de monde dans mon RER
Oh WRT my question yesterday @LucDanton, what about captureless lambdas?
 
6:35 AM
same thing
 
What's the rationale behind it?
 
C++ isn’t C, I suppose
 
Well to be fair, it's a C-API to a C++ library
 
the compilers don’t care too much about language linkage and neither do I
 
user1804599
@Shoe I am pro-anything that hurts the EU.
 
user1804599
6:47 AM
@SpongyFruitcake cute
 
user1804599
Especially considering OP was once an atheist.
 
@Rerito if only we had more lambda expression modifiers then we could have +extern "C" constexpr []() mutable { return 0; }!
 
hehe yeah
 
7:27 AM
Mmm. If the solution is only for single-threaded, a weak_ptr completely fails to add anything a raw pointer. Most importantly, it's Undefined Behaviour if the lifetime actually ended. I can't condone this idea. — sehe 27 secs ago
 
@sehe I only skimmed, but enable_shared_from_this comes to mind
 
Of course.
 
@LucDanton You forgot __stdcall
 
weak_ptr is handy in single-threaded situations where you can't really bind lifetime to a scope.
 
Hmmm?
So, when the object is instantiated deeply nested? Why is unique_ptr not strictly better?
@LucDanton That's the thing that the OP raved against. While kenba's answer pushes back on the "that's cheating" argument, it introduced two problematic thoughts, IMO (shared_ptrs easily lead to resource leaks? nah; Binding to weak_ptr, on the other hand, easily leads to UB)
 
7:33 AM
For example we have an API with a scripting front-end. If the script user destroys an object and then tries to use that object again we need to protect against dangling pointer deref.
 
@Puppy let’s remain standard shall we: +extern "C" constexpr []() mutable [[noreturn]] { std::abort(); }
attributes on parameters don’t count :)
 
@StackedCrooked That's pretty specific (the script objects/heap/stack are really separate things, logically). But yeah, that is a good example. In fact, it is the same kind of situation: asynchronously executed logic
 
@sehe to elaborate, I was thinking that the answer would be useless even to an OP that was willing to use shared_ptr. after taking a look at more of the code though the answerer really uses weak_ptr as pointers, which is a different sin
 
7:55 AM
Indeed.
 
8:15 AM
WTF? The headers shipped with VS 2015 cannot be compiled with the Clang shipped with the same version of the Visual Studio!
  In file included from C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 14.0\VC\include\limits:11:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 14.0\VC\include\xstddef(732,2): error : 'auto' return without trailing return type; deduced return types are a C++14 extension [C:\projects\log4cplus-wqukl\build.msvc2015clang\src\log4cplusU.vcxproj]
          auto _Unfancy(_Ptrty _Ptr)
          ^
 
@rightfold Really? Also good avatar choice I thought you were milleniumbug.
 
nwp
@wilx that's not an instance of "cannot be compiled", it is an instance of "forgot -std=c++14"
 
@nwp If the headers are shipped with the compiler they should be usable with the compiler OOTB.
 
_Ptrty
@wilx Why? C++11 headers ship with gcc 4.9 and yet they're not usable without -std=c++11.
 
@SpongyFruitcake <limits> is really not C++11 only header.
 
8:22 AM
That wasn't my point.
 
nwp
13
A: Enabling C++14 in clang in Visual Studio

antiduhclang-cl doesn't use the same option syntax as traditional clang - it's supposed to mimic Visual Studio's cl command line, not clang's command line. For instance, from clang-cl's documentation: CL.EXE COMPATIBILITY OPTIONS: /? Display available options /arch:<value> ...

 
VS 2010 can't unary + captureless lambdas :(
 
@Rerito VS 2010 also doesn't like capturing lambdas inside another lambdas
 
@login_not_failed VS 2010 doesn't like many things, he's a bigot
 
yup, lots of things
 
8:34 AM
Why would anyone use VS2010 except at gunpoint
 
nwp
because compatibility with other people
who use it to be compatible to you
 
well, because of the said gun pointing at you!
 
Compatibility with VS2010 is not a desirable thing
 
we still drag this monstrosity because of compatibility… it slows down everything
 
@LucDanton Genius
I like the asterisk at the bottom
 
8:39 AM
@LucDanton do you get some mentalists "business cards" in your mailbox too?
 
He is a mentalist
Luc Danton : votre compilateur connaît des difficultés ? Dons héréditaires de pire en fesse dans les domaines de la déduction d'arguments, résolution d'ambiguités, et plus généralement toute forme de code absconse, n'hésitez plus, appelez Luc Danton en passant -Wpedanton à votre compilateur.
3
 
I'm sorry, but this is beatiful to read somehow :D
 
Son nom ne vieillit jamais
 
@Rerito naw
 
Seems to be a parisian privilege then
 
8:49 AM
I was about to say yeah
 
Les traditions africaines quoi.
 
Alright. This was a misconfiguration on my side. My CMakeLists.txt supplied -std=c++11 for Clang even when it was the MSVC/Clang. Guarding that against this combination has fixed this for me.
 
user1804599
@SpongyFruitcake Not my problem.
 
I am going to pay youngsters here a compliment: u r so young, you are like the spring chicken
 
define a «youngster» please :)
 
9:05 AM
#define youngster spring_chicken
 
user1804599
Exactly one year ago we had a referendum about the association treaty with Ukraine. Politicans all said Ukraine wouldn't become an EU member. Nobody believed them. Now Merkel says she wants to help Ukraine comply with all the EU membership criteria. 😂😂😂😂😂
 
Ven
@sehe PATTERNS EXPERT
 
9:25 AM
@SpongyFruitcake Mais oui c'est clair !
 
9:37 AM
@Ven U+FUEEEEE DOUBLE KLEENE STAR
@rightfold Politicians correctly said that the treaty did NOT imply any particular entitlement or goal to accept Ukraine as EU member. What is so hard to get?
This is exactly why it's dumb to do stuff like this by referendum.
People are (a) not informed enough (b) far too eager to misinterpret "😂😂😂😂😂"
So, without the treaty, Merkel would have likely said the same. Remember how many years Turkey has been striving for membership? I don't see many people hyperventilating how Turkey is becoming a EU member.
@Rerito Ah. Mentalist that's the name I was looking for
 
Ven
9:58 AM
lol arguing politics with rightfold
 
Mildly amused by this self-solliciting "outrage".
 
Ven
Every. single. time.
that's what you do when you don't actually understand what's going on. Same reason why she's anti EU.
 
10:20 AM
To be fair, few people can understand what's going on. That's hardly a reason to start acting self-righteous and confrontational, of course.
History will undoubtedly have to repeat itself. I'm just hoping it will not have to be as bad as the other times.
 
@sehe I find that in almost any case the minority of people actually knows what to do
 
(Although, if there's a lesson in history, it might be that man-made carnage is steadily increasing, not decreasing. On the bright side, natural disaster seems to have less of an impact these days. That is, on humanity. Now, that's until (a) the first inevitable major meteor strike or fatal vulcano eruption (b) we realize that human population is a natural disaster)
@login_not_failed I find that thought attractive, but I haven't found rational arguments to support it.
I do believe that a consensus among representatives can lead to a "safish" policy, or at least a stable path towards the unknown (or increasingly less unknown, a.k.a. future)
 
@sehe naive explanation might be imagining the normal distribution of people's expertise in a given topic — you cannot have 100% understanding of the topic through a large group of people, so some knows better, some knows absolutely nothing
 
nwp
@login_not_failed That's not a bug, that's a feature. It's called division of labor. We just lack sufficient systems that encourage the few experts to act in the interest of the masses and the corrective measures when they don't.
 
@nwp absolutely agree (and for the record, I don't view it as a bug)
 
10:43 AM
Lel. Let me DESTROY your problems :)
@login_not_failed Yeah. It's a different thing to claim "the minority actually knows". But those mechanics are what I acknowledged
The problem with your wording being what it means to "know what to do". Many groups absolutely know what to do.
 
@sehe true, I'd blame boost python for cluttering my brain :D
 
@rightfold why
 
user1804599
11:11 AM
Because the EU is an evil institution of self-enrichment.
 
user1804599
I don't see it as the sum of its member states, but as a third party.
 
@login_not_failed bro
 
user1804599
why are shell languages still so terrible
 
user1804599
trap STRINGLITERAL EXIT instead of try/finally, really
 
because OS implementation details vs. abstraction
@rightfold It's never been a sum of its members (any institution that is just that is useless, if you think about it)
It ought not be a third party, but you can have a vote in that.
 
user1804599
11:14 AM
And the leader is an alcoholic that cannot be democratically removed. Go figure.
 
user1804599
eu pls collapse
 
rightfold please get some sense
5
Bad leaders need to go. Who is the "leader" that you speak of anyways.
Doesn't he just preside.
Well. Doesn't his role just require that.
 
user1804599
Not only should they leave, they should be forced to leave, through popularity vote across all those qualified to vote.
 
Popular* vote. Yes. +1
 
user1804599
There are some things awfully wrong with EU elections:
The people can't directly elect members of the commission. This makes it #partijkartel++.
You can't elect MEPs from other countries. This is completely stupid because you can't elect people that will have power.
 
11:22 AM
Well derp. That last part is pretty obvious. And obviously NOT bad.
Erm. EU is about sharing power. Not grabbing it.
The point is to have a legal basis to require members to cooperate in the common interest.
 
user1804599
gah, Test::More plans are so bad
 
user1804599
and when you opt-out (through done_testing) and a test fails, it throws an exception, causing done_testing not to be called -_-
 
refresh your wardrobe ... Not Authorized!!!
 
11:39 AM
@Telkitty It's clearly a joke. "No rainchecks".
 
nwp
Somehow I feel like std::round should return an integral value because I round to turn a floating point number into an integral number.
That a double can hold any rounded double whereas a long long int cannot seems more like an inconvenience than an explanation.
 
user1804599
You can make a new function that returns an integer.
 
user1804599
Problem solved! Next.
 
nwp
11:58 AM
at least I shouldn't get a warning for int i = std::round(3.14);
 
good proxy service?
 
@sehe lol
@rightfold Who's "self-" in "self-enrichment"?
@rightfold To be honest, this is a pretty big leap in logic from "I think the elections are flawed" to "they're evil".
There's plenty of reasons for you to not have the ability to elect MEPs from other countries, and you see this sort of thing in electoral systems all over the place.
To take an example you should be familiar with, in the Netherlands, you cannot vote for someone from a party list of a different district.
It's a core idea in representational systems.
 
12:18 PM
@SpongyFruitcake As-tu bien pensé à faire ta procuration ?
 
I'll also uphold that the leap from "can't elect commissioners" to "they're evil" is unjustified and stems from misunderstanding the powers of the Commission, the Council, and the Parliament.
 
@sehe Tbh in the original tweet he has a point.
 
@Shoe Not really.
 
std::optional<std::unique_ptr<T>> is unnecessarily complex for at least some simple implementations.
 
@Shoe We can't tell. There are situations in which that point can be made, yes. But in the tweet, it's ludicrous coming from someone like him
@Shoe s/implementations/applications/
 
12:26 PM
For one, optional<T> can easily become optional<unique_ptr<T>> in a template.
 
@Shoe So is optional<T> and unique_ptr<T>
 
unique_ptr<X> f();
template <typename Fun> optional<result_of<Fun()>> may_or_may_not_call(Fun fun);
may_or_may_not_call(f);
That's not far-fetched.
 
I'm being pragmatic here. I know that std::optional has better tools to use and detect the real value/optional value. But I can see myself preferring std::unique_ptr<T> inside of a private implementation.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Someone made that point in the tweetconvo although Sommerlad will probably not get it
 
@sehe Yup, thanks.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't see your point.
 
12:29 PM
@Shoe It's not about "better tools to do something". It's about the fact that the two layers do not mean the same thing.
 
Yes, in that case you would use std::optional.
 
@Shoe If your compiler can't handle optional<unique_ptr<T>>, that code won't compile, and it's a perfectly cromulent example of why you'd need such a thing.
 
@sehe You mean that there's difference between noopt and nullptr in std::optional<std::unique_ptr<T>>?
 
Such as?
 
12:30 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes TBH I don't think the compiler actually couldn't handle it. Probably PEBCAK and Sommerlad just dodged the real problem?
@Shoe The type. And whatever semantic the type expresses
 
As the result of may_or_may_not_call above, noopt means the function wasn't called. nullptr means it returned a null pointer.
 
^
As an example.
 
No no. Hold on.
We are not talking about a template function whose instantiation results in a std::optional<std::unique_ptr<T>>. I'm talking about explicitly deciding to use std::optional<std::unique_ptr<T>> for something.
The interface of may_or_may_not_call is definitely correct and should remain like that.
 
@Shoe In the example he gave, his question only answers the problem if it always regardless of an explicit decision.
 
And it just so happens that the specific instantiation leads to a std::optional<std::unique_ptr<T>> for which, yes, nullptr and noopt don't mean the same thing.
8 mins ago, by Shoe
std::optional<std::unique_ptr<T>> is unnecessarily complex for at least some simple implementations.
All I was saying is that in some applications I can see myself just using std::unique_ptr because nullptr and noopt mean the same thing.
There are some cases where the two have different semantics, but there are probably as many other cases, if not more, where they have the same semantic and you are being a little bit idealistic.
 
12:36 PM
@Shoe Who's "we"
 
s/We are/I am/ if it makes you feel more comfortable.
 
The point is that no such "pragmatic context" is visible in the original post. Which makes the claim look ridiculous.
@Shoe It does.
 
@sehe AFAICS he is correcting a student in what is probably a project with a very small scope. I would say pragmatism wins there.
 
hi
anyone likes to have a look at proofs regarding (un)decidability?
 
12:40 PM
why?
it's the essence of computer science
you should have
:D
 
Ven
that doesnt make any sense
 
what?
 
no I have better things to do with my time than looking at your homework
 
Ven
Turing completeness is not necessary for CS.
 
@milleniumbug My homework?
 
Ven
12:41 PM
Disregard undecidability, acquire Martin-Lof type theory.
 
lol
I guess you're "just" programmers with no interest for abstract things
 
lol
 
wow please don’t call me a programmer
 
You can leave now. Your work here is done.
 
12:42 PM
software engineering
or whatever
*engineer
 
We're just people who have better things to do than look at your homework. Now go ask someone else.
 
wow so rude
 
that's arguably worse
 
good, good, do you need some more gratification?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes who said it's a homework?
 
12:43 PM
quel polisson
 
that's just inference
and the algorithm maybe hasn't worked correctly
 
@nbro We still have better things to do even if it isn't.
 
Ven
You appear to like yourself about as much as LRiO does.
 
nwp
how is ptr formed???
 
Ven
@nwp all your intptr_t are belong to us
 
12:44 PM
yes, homework
 
basically you have a dangling pointer to this side of the world
:D
 
Ven
I'm sorry did we tell you we didn't care
 
ahah
 
what's all the fuss with optional<unique_ptr<T>> vs unique_ptr<T>(nullptr)?
 
Have you seen the name of the room?
 
Ven
12:45 PM
You'll have a hard time beating the Lounge at this "Feeling superior to others" game.
 
Have you seen the description?
 
Ven
We're pretty much experts.
 
@nwp you take the memry, you suck some address, you inject that address into other mmory and you have pointaee
 
We're clearly people interested in lounging, C++, and leaving the EU.
 
Has @SpongyFruitcake successfully launched a new game of bikeshed?
 
12:45 PM
@Shoe I'd say it's bad to teach students that.
 
@nbro that's like telling maths professors that you would like to share your proof of 1 + 1 != 2
 
@Rerito some person who claims to have invented the rule of zero (and is not robot) being a badlet
 
0.1% you might be a genius & 99.9% you are wasting our time
 
@Telkitty that's actually possible and not wrong
 
as rational decision makers, we are telling you to f off
 
12:46 PM
@sehe Teaching students to be pragmatic sometimes it's a very important lesson. One that IME is hardly ever taught. Therefore I actually consider it p valuable.
 
@milleniumbug Yes I noticed that this particular individual who coined the rule of zero (hehe) stroke again
 
@Shoe In the realm of CS I see lots of evidence to the contrary.
 
you're worse than Python programmers in terms of being open-minded with respect to different things, but it's the pain of already being using C++ all the way
ahaha
 
What is wrong in using nullptr to mean "there's nothing here"?
 
@sehe Then we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
12:47 PM
Of course it's also valuable. But the value of pragmatism is readily learned in practice.
The value of generic abstraction is hard to learn in practice.
 
why Python programmers?
because I asked the same thing on the Python chat
and they reacted a little bit better
 
We are open minded
 
@Rerito Nothing. It's just false to say there's no value in distinguising nullable pointers from optional types
 
nwp
@nbro check if the Java chat is more open minded
 
@Shoe nice joke
 
12:49 PM
@nbro Woot for science! Python programmers react better.
 
Just because we don't care about your particular topic doesn't mean we are close minded.
 
try JS chat, they React better
 
@sehe I agree optional<unique_ptr<T>> makes the object semantics clearer than using nullptr
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Study Shows: Python Programmers React Better [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
8
 
Most of us have had a background in CS, so decidability is nothing new and we just don't care.
 
12:50 PM
ahah, at the JS chat after a while they starting diverging in terms of topics
 
But a bit more cumbersome maybe
 
lol
 
Ven
@Shoe well it's more like
 
@Rerito I disagree. Out of context, there's no decision. It's just not equivalent. And both have uses.
 
Ven
JS-style
null, undefined, value
so any variable is a Maybe (Maybe a)
 
12:50 PM
:)
 
Comon guise you're being picky here :p
 
Love it
 
What did you expect
 
not enough null values
 
Yeah the lounge is stuck in -pedantic mode :D
 
12:51 PM
It's been that way for years
 
needs null, undefined and file_not_found
 
Why is rightfold displaying millenium's pic?
 
@Ven no bottoms though :(
 
inb4 because he likes fallout
 
:-*
need to leave now, but you're definitely not going to miss me ;) :D
 
12:53 PM
yesterday, by rightfold
Because I like Fallout and I wanted a new avatar.
 
Ven
wow
are you mental
 
Did he have to pick exactly that pic to display that he likes fallout though?
 
nwp
it was readily available, unlike google image search
 
Just changing the background color would have worked
 
@Shoe It would have required completing a photoshop (or smth) project though
2
 
12:55 PM
Ouch
 
nwp
@sehe maybe it is time to add to the list
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Study Shows: Python Programmers React Better [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++17] [c++-faq]
 
@nbro Btw, would you like to have a look my garden and see what I did wrong?
Don't tell me you have no interest in botany.
 
I actually would love to
 
@Shoe pro tip: don't see avatars
 
12:58 PM
@Shoe Actually, since I moved last week, I have everything in temporary pots atm.
Will replant this weekend.
Gonna start some guerilla gardening.
 
user1804599
@Shoe It's a coincidence.
 
user1804599
I like Fallout.
 
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