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5:12 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes .... Huwat.
 
Ell
@nwp this is a major pain
I thought Debian was supposed to do this kind of thing for you
 
nwp
It will. Eventually.
 
Ell
Is it a bug?
 
@Borgleader
-7
Q: I've big problems with smartasses, how should I react best?

LonelyWhat to do, if some individuals, whose body temperature easily lie about their IQ (EDIT: Celsius) want to help by downvoting my question, without knowing, that they are cognitively unable to understand the question at all? As I fear it in advance, they would comment and down vote this question t...

 
> Torsional stiffness of tubes rises as the 4th power of diameter, so a change from a 35-mm tube to 36 could increase stiffness by 12%.
I should really build real stuff instead of software
 
5:20 PM
@Ell At work.
 
user1804599
"Trump is bad because the KKK endorses Trump" which fallacy is this?
 
composition/division?
nah
 
@rightfold Association fallacy
 
Hi :)
 
it's like basic logic really
 
5:24 PM
@Morwenn Hiiiiyo.
Man they said they'd record this stuff.
When is it going to end up saved somewhere...
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks :3
 
@ThePhD Hw're you doing? No more sol optimization fuckups ongoing? :D
 
@Morwenn >_> ...
 
<3
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes misclick?
 
5:26 PM
 
> My body temperature is 310 Kelvins, and I have an IQ to match. – yellowantphil 12 mins ago
how meta
 
@ThePhD Ow...
 
Well, nothing like a shit storm of a mistake surfacing half hour before you want to leave for home for a gig :S
 
Also.
Having a Gitter is kind of sucky.
While I've had a few conversations with enthusiasts,
the majority of what's happened is equivalent to: "I didn't read your docs or your examples. How do I do [thing clearly shown in docs and examples]?"
 
Make a bot that automagically asks « Have you read the doc? » :p
 
5:31 PM
That would be nice...
 
mostly worthless because it will just annoy potential users
 
But, it also makes me think I need to restructure my docs.
 
do some simple keyword matching and post a message to the appropriate doc page
"Your question may already be answered here: <page>"
 
@AlexM. No more potential users = no more dumb questions
7
 
"std::optional<T&> will be discussed in Issaquah; it will likely be like variant<T&>, which may change; many hate how it assigns the referent"
Welp. Time to go read up on std::variant and how it handles T&.
 
5:32 PM
@ThePhD If you're lucky enough, your library will eventually become super-known, and people will ask about it on SO and you won't have to close the questions by yourself anymore.
 
What. any requires that the held type be CopyConstructible?
 
of course
if your any is CopyConstructible, the stored type must be too
 
Right, but I thought you could stuff a move-only type in there with the stipulation that you have to simply std::move the any everywhere if you want it to not blow up on you at runtime?
 
otherwise you could have move_only_any which would not require CopyConstructible
@ThePhD no that's retarded
throwing on non-copyable types, laffo
then again any seems like a type that sounds useful in theory, but in practice, I've never found any (hehe) use for it
You pretty much want Boost.TypeErasure instead
 
I don't know what the difference in semantics would be.
 
Xeo
5:38 PM
@ThePhD type-erasure erases move-only-ability
same dealio with std::function
 
What a helpful clock.
 
Xeo
you can have unique_function and unique_any that are move-only, and can thus forward that constraint to the contained values
but eh
 
@Xeo I guess that makes sense...
 
@Mysticial Strangely enough it appears that the question didn't attract the meta effect. Or the question Lonely is talking about already got deleted.
 
5:40 PM
Does GCC 6.1 have a std::variant already?
I want to figure out how std::varant<T&> behaves
 
Xeo
@ThePhD For the table / container thing, similar to what you said as an idea - does 5.1's pairs do something like static_assert(is_same_v<decltype(arg), table>) or does it just expect table operations and not get them?
 
So I can send a tweet back to that guy telling him whether or not it's a good idea.
 
update: now one of their questions has -2. It had -1 when I checked it last time.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow XD
 
@Xeo It (runtime) checks if (type_of(arg) == type::table). If that fails it throws everything out the window.
 
5:42 PM
hm I need to buy a new helmet
 
Xeo
@ThePhD shucks. is there something like deriving from table, and overriding the interface functions?
although I guess that goes in your direction of keeping the container around as an upvalue
 
@rightfold This is so fuckin' stupid I almost peed my pants.
 
Xeo
how do meta-tables work again?
 
> I had read about how this problem was dealt with in special cases; put the part in the lathe and turn the shank diameter down to something close to thread root diameter.
fucks sake
this guy is amazing
 
Xeo
maybe you can do something with that, if I remember correctly in what fashion they work
 
user1804599
5:44 PM
@Xeo they define operator overloads
 
@Xeo they group some special functions for the objects
 
user1804599
Including []
 
operators mostly, and table-like behaviour ^
which also means method lookups
 
user1804599
So a method look up is not one but two indirections!
 
Xeo
5:45 PM
yeah okay. can you stuff anything you want in the meta-table and it's just ignored?
 
user1804599
Yeah
 
user1804599
Unless it is one of the special names used by certain operators and functions
 
user1804599
Or __gc
 
Xeo
So @ThePhD could stuff the container ref in the meta-table, and change the interface ops and functions to forward to that
 
Ven
Look up your meta-gf
@Xeo did you just tell me to go fuck myself?
 
Xeo
5:47 PM
?
 
Hello. My first time in the chat
 
@Xeo you'd need to warn people about that
 
Ven
Meems
@Tedi same!
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz opt-in, obv
 
you can totally loop over metatable contents and modify them and break things
 
Xeo
5:48 PM
sure. your own damn fault then, tho
 
@Tedi It's the first time in the chat for all of us, none of us have left so far, ever.
 
@Xeo depends on the contracts vOv
 
user1804599
@Tedi Welcome
 
hahahaha
 
FWIW you could mask the hidden members if you'd overriden the __index of the metatable itself... I think
 
Xeo
5:50 PM
user could still change that __index, no?
 
@Xeo Sure, it was one of my ideas for the new design. I was going to basically put in a table, and then override most operations. The problem then was to find a way to store the container itself on the table (a reference or a value) and how to deal with the way pairs behaves: it calls an iteration function called next, which hands a key like nil to the table to say "hey, start iterating over the values". Even if I hijack __index,
I don't know the difference between nil, I couldn't find a value and nil, we're iterating over a table.
There's also the problem of the syntax I allow on the C++ side:
sol::state lua;
lua["container"] = std::vector<int>{ 1, 2, 3 };
std::vector<int>& ref_to_container = lua["container"];
 
lua = lookup ache?
 
Xeo
@ThePhD that has to be defined somewhere, how would a plain-old table do it?
 
If I make container a table with some derpy internal field holding the actual container value, then I suffer the problem of [A] much more expensive type checking (have to do a lookup to a field and then check if that's a userdata value, as opposed to having the userdata value directly) and [B] much more expensive to get the data itself (again, have to go look into a field, and then retrieve it).
They added a function to make this easier in Lua 5.3 ... but I don't need the help in 5.3.
Honestly, I wish Lua 5.1 just burned to the ground. It was released almost a decade ago initially and is old and crufty and shit.
But LuaJIT keeps that bullshit alive.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD If people wanna use 5.1, they might just have to deal with the consequences (performance) here
also, make it opt-in, something like lua["container"] = table_facade(vec);
 
5:58 PM
I have lua["container"] = as_table( vec ), and as_table basically serializes the whole thing as a table (and then it can be used like a table), but that doesn't help people who have things like Class Bindings where it returns a reference to a vector class member.
table_facade might be helpful, yeah, but at that point I'm basically maintaining 2 codepaths for containers. u.u;
 
Xeo
@ThePhD why isn't that called to_table?
 
@ThePhD At work.
 
Xeo
I'd kinda expect (from the name) that as_table == table_facade.
as_ prefix for views
 
Ah. You're right.
I mean. If I can make the table facade behave properly then I could replace the as_table serialization entirely.
 
6:01 PM
Some people might be annoyed its not a True Table™ though.
 
Xeo
you may still want to allow people to do what as_table currently does
for performance reasons
(rename it, tho)
If they never need the original container back, it can happily be a serialised table, no?
 
If I rename it I'll probably piss somebody off.... but, eh.
@Xeo Yeah.
 
@fredoverflow I want one without any markings, but a single hand that has a smaller display at the end of that hand that is like this one.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nice! If your company releases anything neat with it, let me know. :D
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? Paint please.
 
Xeo
@fredoverflow Something like this, maybe?
oh, the whole clock on the hand
 
(The hands in the smaller one move as well, matching the right time; the picture has the bigger hand with the wrong time because I'm lazy)
 
Well, good luck kickstarting that :)
 
Actually, I really want one of these: slow-watches.com
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I... I don't know why, but that watch deeply appeals to me.
I want two.
 
6:11 PM
So it moves at 50% speed?
 
> B+
God
 
> The watch has a Swiss Made Ronda Caliber 505.24H GMT Quartz movement that originally has 4 hands plus the date. We only use one hand that shows the 24 hour time in order to create a true slow watch that is reduced to only one necessary component. But we think it’s pretty cool to know that there actually is quite a complex movement happening inside of your watch.
lol
 
Well, it's not the worst grade. =/
 
nwp
I should be doing useful things but I'm lazy.
 
6:13 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Now make the clock 7 times slower again so I can also tell how far into the week we are :)
 
nwp
WTB Motivation
I wish the clang people would have a version changer on sites like this and let me switch to the version I'm using.
 
@Mysticial lol
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
Rad Peano's clock:
 
user1804599
 
@rightfold That clock makes me itchy.
 
user1804599
Analogue clocks are stupid.
 
user1804599
Digital clock master race.
 
user1804599
lol people think WhatsApp is in charge of emoji
 
HEY
 
6:35 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's the generally agreed upon implied base of log?
 
10 in this case, cos you can see the ln
 
log 9876 = 3.99
That's rather cool!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes any significance to the arcs/geometric shapes, or is that cool looking design?
 
7:02 PM
Hi, humans. On the topic of slow watches.
Me and my colleagues have observed humanity for a while now and there is one odd thing about your behavior we are completely confused by.
We studied this problem for decades, but we are still not closer to finding an explanation. Why when humans try to simplify things they often only end up complicating them?
I know that asking you and revealing ourselves in the process is the stupidest experiment imaginable, but it's also the only idea we haven't tried yet.
 
nwp
@АндрейБеньковский making things simple is complicated
11
Also you try to shift the burden. You make the tool and the development process more complicated in order to make the usage simpler. It doesn't always work out.
 
7:44 PM
Looks at the Lounge<c++>Magisch yesterday
Upon reading this I had a vision of a moderator being surrounded on the high street in the C++ chat room, everyone with their guns out, carrion birds looking down expectantly from the surrounding buildings. Should the marshal ride back to the city and get reinforcements? Or tough it out with the mob on their own? An eerie silence blankets the scene. — Pekka 웃 yesterday
 
Ven
8:10 PM
@Mysticial they didn't even capitalize the C!
 
Anybody we know running for election?
 
8:50 PM
@Mikhail I dislike dynamically typed languages, but they aren't bad for throwaway code. If I need to crunch a few numbers with a special equation or maybe run a small build, it's perfect. But I love typing and compile time checks for anything I expect to use and rewrite
 
@Mysticial I should probably know better by now, but the self righteousness on meta never ceases to amaze me.
@tristan: You apparently haven't paid much attention to the list of people who inhabit the lounge. A fair number of us are well versed in as obscure of weapons as you'd like to name (and probably more you can't name). In a just world, however, the hate speech directed toward us in this thread would already have resulted in at least two people enjoying short...vacations from SO. — Jerry Coffin 5 mins ago
 
@Aaron3468 Definitely true. one thing that makes me sad is the preference for Python over Matlab. Matlab is a more intelligible, with its fortan style pass by value model, and built in matrix types.
 
Honestly, I think this is why Matlab hasn't taken off: Price List
And I totally understand that they want/need to make money, but many of their competitors are easily-accessible and/or open source
 
@Mikhail So is it Fortran-style or is it pass by value? Fortran is (rather notoriously, I thought) pass by reference unless you specify otherwise (and it wasn't until relatively recently that you could even specify otherwise).
 
user559633
@JerryCoffin lol I came in here specifically hoping to talk to you.
 
user559633
8:57 PM
In what world do you think that's an insult or hate speech? Or even mocking of experienced users of C++?
 
@JerryCoffin So, Matlab passes a pointer and copies on write...
The mechanism is hidden from the user, meaning you can dump large gigabyte arrays into functions without worrying about deep copies.
 
@tristan I think referring to a group of intelligent, educated, disciplined people as a "mob" cannot possibly be construed as anything short of an insult and hate speech.
 
user559633
@JerryCoffin The "mob" comment that I used was a joke on the foaming at the mouth picture the comment I was responding to had made. If there was someone disrespecting C++ users, it wasn't me, at least not intentionally.
 
user559633
C++ is a less noob friendly language than others (e.g. Python/Ruby/JavaScript). That was the joke I was making. Not sure if there were more comments that made you feel insulted as I can't see them thanks to the...diligent removal of content from mods. If there wasn't, and you had skipped from my comment to needing to respond, that really reads like thin skin.
 
@tristan My opinion may be somewhat biased, but I'd say the majority of suspensions I've seen were for transgressions that were downright trivial by comparison. Calling a group of people a "mob" is a direct attack on those people--dramatically worse than use of the "F-word and C-word" as noted elsewhere in the thread.
 
user559633
9:09 PM
@JerryCoffin Ah, okay, it's definitely not thin skin with the context then. I forgot the mob with pitchforks/whatever comment that I had used for setup, but serious derision wasn't the intent. And yeah, agreed on suspensions happening for trivial things.
 
@Mikhail ...as long as they don't modify it, of course. Do they incorporate any sort of tiling, so it can copy only parts of the array, or does a single write trigger copying the whole thing?
 
@JerryCoffin Unfortunately, I don't think they tile. The key thing is that when writing C++ functions for use in MATLAB routines you need to verify that the pointers aren't aliased. A=B, aliases B, so a routine modifying A is responsible for a deep copy.
 
@tristan As alluded to in my initial comment about it above, the part that particularly bothers me is the hypocritical self-righteousness of meta-denizens.
@Mikhail There are times I really wish Dennis Ritchie had written instead: "noalias must be fixed. The concept is valuable, but it cannot stand as it is." By the time C++ came along, it would have followed naturally (not that it would help for this case, but you just happened to hit one of my pet peeves).
@tristan Being fair, I should probably add: no, it's undoubtedly not all meta-denizens (though I am tempted to quote the old line, originally applied to attorneys, about it being only 99% giving the rest a bad name).
 
user559633
@JerryCoffin I managed to see some of the follow up comments in a browser tab I hadn't refreshed, and by skimming backwards, and while I take no responsibility for anything that happened after my cheap/lazy joke about language complexity, I completely understand why you responded. I don't spend a lot of time on meta, partially because what you say bothers me too, but also because sycophants.
 
@JerryCoffin IOW:
@JerryCoffin Lounge<C++> lives matter! We will not tolerate abuse from the meta-police!!!
15
 
9:20 PM
@tristan Sycophants don't bother me (as long as they're sycophantic toward me, of course). :-)
 
user559633
@JerryCoffin I mind it because they hold the door open for more annoying, tedious people
 
If I may, the characterization of people as a mob dehumanizes them. Moderators, more than other users, are responsible for being impartial and aware of dysfunctional online behaviour. I respect Jerry because he isn't generally emotional and has a fairly good idea of when to be playful to soften his observations, and when to be blunt. I'm also glad to see that you were able to have a proper discussion on the subject of your disagreement :) @tristan /cc @JerryCoffin
 
@tristan Fair enough.
@Aaron3468 See, now there's some proper sycophantism. ;-)
 
user559633
:)
 
And yeah, I realize that's (at least probably) not a word. And it's a thoroughly unfair characterization as well. But I never let facts get in the way of a joke.
 
9:32 PM
:*) glad you spotted that humour
 
Hello anyone free to give me an idea of something related to binary trees?
 
Ell
Red black trees
 
Random forest classifiers
 
@DanielEstebanLadinoTorres Perhaps--if you have a question somebody finds interesting.
 
9:55 PM
@Mysticial What have I missed?
 
nwp
@wilx jerry trolled meta, but it has been cleaned up by now
 
10:11 PM
@nwp That sounds like it might have been fun.
 
10:42 PM
I found Stallman's soulmate, someone send this to him i.imgur.com/7p0jvV0.gifv
 
@AlexM. omg omg omg lol
 
"I saw you sharing in my passion for foot skin byproducts, and my GNU/Heart exploded. ASL PLS"
 
Ven
yum yum
DID SHE JUST EAT THAT
 
@Ven Yes.
 
10:49 PM
@Ven ew ew
@JerryCoffin Splendid. Dictionary says: "Sycophant: a person who acts obsequiously towards someone important in order to gain advantage."
I don't always need a dictionary to understand words, but when I do, I make sure I use one that requires seven more dictionaries to understand the definition
 
@sehe :D
 
Ven
@milleniumbug CHILL
 
MW is much more to the point "a person who praises powerful people in order to get their approval"
@Ven LOCK CAPS
 
Ven
RMS and chill
BSD and chill?
 
BDSM and chill?
 
10:54 PM
BDSM and kill
 
Ven
> I do not post on 4chan. I have nothing against it, and I have occasionally answered questions for interviews for 4chan, but any posting there that says it is by me is by an impostor.
this guy is so insane
 
> > implying anyone would ever admit to posting on 4chan
 
@Ven BSD for sure, especially if you're going to take advantage of its being "free" and look at the source code. Compared to Linux, BSD source is beautiful.
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin do you have experience wth that?
 
@Ven Do you mean: "have I looked at the source code?" If so, then yes.
 
Ven
10:55 PM
Yes – compared both codebases.
 
@Ven I've read parts of both at various times, but never tried to sit them side by side and compare directly.
 
Ven
right, for sure :P
 
BTW, I hate SUVs with diode lights. Yesterday, I was driving on a bumpy road and somebody with SUV with diode lights was driving behind me. I had the bright lights in my rear mirror blinding me all the time to the point that I thought he was blinking at me with the strong night lights and had to stop the car and pissed go ask the dude wtf was his problem.
I find these lights also really bright when passing cars in the other direction when compared to usual bulbs lights.
 
user1804599
Why is it so satisfying to watch pimple popping videos?
 
user1804599
Is it because imperfections are being removed?
 
11:04 PM
@wilx Had a similar experience with a car that had auto-dimming for the headlights years ago. It reacted a bit slowly, and we were both on a winding mountain road. It got far enough out of sync, it was quite routinely dimming as it aimed off into nowhere, then blinking back to bright at just the right time to blind me again.
 
@rightfold norepro
7
 
user1804599
Many people find it interesting
 
user1804599
The videos are very popular
 
I don't think those two statements are related in a world where you can buy likes, follows, and plays
 
Ven
buy prayers
 
11:15 PM
@Ven I'll sell you some prayers. Deity of your choice (even if it's not me!) and extremely reasonable prices.
 
My Movember moustache is starting to appear!
 
11:27 PM
BUSINESS TIP: Get your employees to work overtime without complaint by calling it a Hackathon and buying pizza!!
^ My company does that too. One is upcoming this month. I am happily not participating. :)
 
11:39 PM
> In fact, the team spent so much time describing the calculations and the physics behind them in the body of the paper that they forgot to bother to mention the results that it produced.
 
Essays are so persuasive, but never seem to cite sources which justify their calls to action. They get lots of circulation on social media and I'm not sure how I feel about that :/
 

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