« first day (533 days earlier)      last day (4401 days later) » 

7:00 PM
The i7 should be decent. Comes with 8MB cache too
 
@tom_mai78101 You don't need a new computer for the C++11 standard ;)
3
 
@FredOverflow You need a new compiler!
 
Didn't see the "at least" part.
 
sbi
@sehe I learned to do that on Usenet, you know. Kill fast, ask questions later or never.
 
7:00 PM
@Mysticial I edited it in later ;)
 
sbi
@DeadMG Wut?
 
@sbi How?
 
for xkcd
no april fools comic for me
 
sbi
@sehe How what?
 
> Fireball first, speak with dead later.
 
7:01 PM
Does a quad core always require more power than a dual core, or only under heavy load?
 
sbi
@DeadMG Maybe he doesn't like puppies?
 
@FredOverflow I think, on general basis, yes.
 
Ell
hi guys
 
@FredOverflow Depends on how it's clocked?
 
7:02 PM
Hi.
 
sebbo, do you ignore me?
 
@FredOverflow I'd say, the latter. However, it is hard to tell without actually benchmarking things. It depends. If you're comparing the same generation of CPUs it stands to reason than n+1 cores take more power than n cores
 
sbi
@FredOverflow No, they don't. It's called the free lunch feature. Oh, wait, that doesn't exist. Sorry.
 
bzw. @sbi :P
 
who is flagging things here
 
7:03 PM
The thing is, quad cores don't cost that much more than dual cores, but I don't think I really need 4 cores. It will only consume more power :/
 
actually, I do believe that they're not rated that much higher
 
@FredOverflow Only a problem if you need low power. What do you need that for?
 
modern CPUs will underclock cores which aren't being used, for example
 
@FredOverflow is it possible to get a machine with less than 4 cores?
 
@sbi If there is no free lunch, can I have a free supper instead?
 
7:03 PM
and it's common to give low-utilization cores low voltage
 
@FredOverflow lol
 
@DeadMG Core 2 Quad cores underclock non-using CPUs themselves?
 
@sehe I just like the idea of energy efficiency.
 
you will consume more power even when they're idle, but not by much
 
@FredOverflow You mean, your Last Supper?
 
7:04 PM
@tom_mai78101 I think (think) that even the original Core 2 Quads could do it
 
@FredOverflow If you can convince the philosophers to pay the bill.
 
@CheersandhthAlf Sure, the cheap ones still have 2 or even 1 cores.
 
@FredOverflow Buy a 2core, perhaps with HT. A i5 would be nice, although of course, more energy efficient CPUs exist.
 
it's certainly in the newest models
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Yeah, as herb wrote in this famous article of his: The Free Lunch Is Over, Now It's Time For The Free Supper.
 
7:05 PM
@sehe But motherboards have to change. I disliked that, now the price tags are growing.
 
@DeadMG so by how much approximately? :)
 
Ell
I bought my 2nd gen i5 pre-overclocked to 4.6ghz, but accidently undid it in the bios
 
no idea, you'd have to find a hardware review site
 
I have a webserver on AMD geode (7Watts for the full unit, including everything) and a fileserver on Intel D501 (dual core). The last one takes about 35 watts due to 5x1.5TB harddisks, but I don't keep it on all the time
 
Ell
:(
 
7:05 PM
but I don't think that dual cores represent good value anymore
 
@sehe OTOH, I feel somehow bad "updating" from a dual core to a dual core... :-/
 
Approximately "not much".
 
I haven't measured my fanless media center running a i7 2600 yet, though
 
@Ell Get that re-overclocked then.
 
How much faster would an i3-2100 (Dual Core from 2011) be compared to an E4300 (Dual Core from 2006ish)?
 
7:06 PM
a hell of a lot faster
 
@FredOverflow You are one of the unlucky ones. :(
 
@FredOverflow Don't. (Feel bad). Look at hardware.info, tweakers, get a shuny benchmark that shows you how it's twice as fast anyway, and keep it rational
 
Ell
@tommai78101 It doesn't seem I need it overclocked really so I ahve just lef it :L
 
to be honest
just get a CPU benchmark and run with it
get some hard numbers and stop speculating
 
Ell
its not doing much... minecraftserver, programming stuff, minecraft, email, internet, skype.
 
7:06 PM
go to anandtech or tomshardware or engadget something like that, and get some bench figures, and be done with it
 
Ell
@DeadMG but speculating is so much easier!
 
@DeadMG Look one up. Phoronix, HWI, tweakers, whatnot
 
@Ell I'm multithreading my workstation for minecraft servers.
 
@DeadMG Those, too
 
@sehe Oh, not every modern CPU has HT? Interesting. I thought all quad cores had support for 8 simultaneous threads.
 
7:07 PM
@FredOverflow HT is of dubious value in many applications.
it's only useful when you have embarassingly parallel (i.e., num_cores * 2 at least) FP work going on, as far as I'm aware, and a drain the rest of the time
 
But, but, the threads!
 
@FredOverflow Nope. It's also debatable whether that actually matters IRL. My media center has 4 cores and HT, and I can assure that is vast overkill. It runs on SSD too and still has a performance index of only 4.7
Which is due to the 'poor' builtin graphics
 
Ell
It seems I bought an extremely excessive wattage for my build - 700W yet people are running i5s on like... 50W. Silly me :O
 
@Ell You can use Crossfire/SLi for that.
@Ell They think of using 700W for future upgrading components and stuffs.
 
@Ell My mediacenter has a i72600S running at 65 W
 
7:10 PM
@Ell I don't think there are 50W PSUs. Do you mean 500W? Oh wait, you meant just the CPU.
 
Ell
@tommai78101 I have not the money nor need for crossfire. Yeah I chose it because of upgrading, and also if psu fails other stuff breaks doesnt it?
@FredOverflow I mean with laptops and stuff
 
@Ell What brand is your 700W PSU?
 
@Ell Mostly, but modern PSUs have fail-safe switches. If you don't have the money nor need for AMD Crossfire, then 700W really seemed like a waste.
 
Ell
@FredOverflow cooler master
@tommai78101 yeah :P in retrospect it was :L oh well. I didnt pay :D
 
7:11 PM
@Ell Wut? That's a gift? Man, I envy you.
 
@FredOverflow My mediacenter, fileserver and webserver boxes (specs see above) all run without internal power-supply. They feature ordinary AC-DC adaptors
 
Ell
@tommai78101 yeah, christmas off my father. Its the first time hes payed for anything of significance though
 
A media center that only does AC/DC doesn't sound like much fun.
 
@Ell Except for your life, then
@RMartinhoFernandes lol. That's why it's external (I don't let it inside)
 
@Ell You don't get it, do you? Your father wants you to use all 700W.
 
Ell
7:12 PM
@sehe haha don't be silly, my life has no significance!
 
@Ell He wanted you to use all you can upgrade.
 
@Ell Touché
 
My life has a lot of signifcance. Without it I'd be dead.
 
@Ell That's the best thing your father gave you, for a computer component.
 
Ell
@tommai78101 haha :L all I have is i5 2500k which should be at 4.6ghz, but I goofed, a 128gb ssd, 1tb hdd, 80gb hdd, cd/dvd rom reader whatever its called
@tommai78101 he bought the whole thing :D
 
7:14 PM
@Ell Oh, then I believe what your father bought, it is significant enough for most of the rest of your life. :D
@Ell Like in 5 to 6 years, at max.
 
Ell
it will last longer than 6 years!
 
@Ell Not according to Moore's Law, I suppose.
 
Hm, the i5-2405S seems interesting to me (2.5 - 3.3 GHz @ 65W). Unfortunately, my dealer only has the i5-2400S with weaker built-in graphics.
 
@FredOverflow Why fuss over the built-in graphics, when you could get an external graphics card?
 
@tom_mai78101 It will last. By then, it might have become another thing of insignificance his father paid for, though :)
 
7:16 PM
@sehe Guess that's one way of saying it.
 
@FredOverflow Why fuss over your dealer. There is plenty fish in the sea (mmm. no doubt someone will refute that, but is only to get the idea)
 
Ell
we still use the 512mb of ram machine from yonks ago :L
 
@sehe He just need the right fishing rod.
 
@tom_mai78101 Because I don't game that much, and one component less in the system is one component less that can fail over time :)
 
@Ell Your SSD may fail in the coming 5 to 6 years.
 
7:17 PM
@Ell My web/mail server does fine in 512Mb. FTR: I disabled swap. Swap is for dead pc's
 
Ell
@tommai78101 I thought ssd's were just as good as hdds?
 
@tom_mai78101 Newsflash: so may your main RAM. Or PSU. Or, in fact, any other component
 
Ell
@sehe we use this as a desktop pc :)
 
@Ell They only last that long.
 
Is the ASRock Z68 Pro3 Gen3 a fine motherboard, or would you suggest another one in the same price category (up to 100€)?
 
7:18 PM
@Ell Oh, that's bad
 
@FredOverflow Srsly, get a hardware review site
 
@sehe What operating system do you use?
 
Ell
@sehe yeah :L running xubuntu atm
 
@FredOverflow I can't help you, when your currency is somewhat coveted in my country.
 
@FredOverflow Linux, what else
 
7:19 PM
@DeadMG But I like talking to you guys a lot more than talking to strangers ;)
 
but those strangers actually have knowledge
 
@Ell What...? Dapper drake or sumting? (Seriously, prolly Lucid LTS)
 
@sehe Just asking, because apparently it is impossible to switch off swapping completely in Windows.
@DeadMG yeah, you're probably right
 
@DeadMG +1 exactly my thought. You have us mistaken for computer buffs, I'm afraid
 
I still don't really seem to understand alignment. Why does this work perfectly fine, while "*d" is obviously not aligned correctly? ideone.com/MGK2o
 
7:20 PM
@FredOverflow Yup. Windows is the OS for dead pc's
 
Somehow I thought all nerds know stuff about hardware ;)
 
@FredOverflow you wont find anyhting cheaper than asrock
 
@cooky451 Because UB does not mean immediate failure.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Nope, in fact it doesn't even mean failure.
 
but quality has its price
 
7:21 PM
@cooky451 I believe that misaligned data can be read in a x86 with a performance penalty.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't meant on language, but on architecture level.
 
@bamboon "won't" missing?
 
@sehe I may have to consider that my favorite games coming out in the future runs on Windows and Mac, and I can't afford Mac OS Xs.
 
Outside of SIMDs at least.
 
Only on x86. Most platforms aren't as forgiving about misaligned access.
 
7:21 PM
@FredOverflow yeap sorry
 
Ell
os x is only like $20? windows is much more?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok, so on x86 it just sacrifices performance, but it still works?
 
pod_cast, lol
 
@RMartinhoFernandes brillant
 
@Ell It's way expensive if you're not in the local area in US.
 
7:22 PM
@cooky451 If you're not using SIMD instructions, yes.
 
Okay, let me ask you a programming question: do you recommend getting a huge monitor or two normal monitors for programming? ;)
 
Two huge monitors.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah.. I kind of tried out many things and didn't really think about names.^^
 
@FredOverflow I recommend at least 2,
 
@CatPlusPlus Zing! beat me to it
 
7:22 PM
@bamboon Do you mean "cheap" as in "affordable" or as in "crap"?
 
@FredOverflow 3 if you're livestreaming your programming skills.
 
You don't really need another monitor just for that.
 
@CatPlusPlus What about the chat rooms?
 
@FredOverflow A lil'' bit of both. Asrock has all the chipsets other borads have, but I'm not sure about bios and build quality. In fact I have my Mom's office PC on an AsRock board, and I'm not so sure I'd pick AsRock again next time.
 
> Service Unavailable
 
@BenVoigt Uh-oh, @CatPlusPlus is screwed.
 
@FredOverflow asrock once was crap but they actually got affordable now
 
@RMartinhoFernandes But placement new kind of works around the strict aliasing rule? (Even though it's still undefined here due to alignment)
 
@BenVoigt 503s.
 
7:24 PM
You can only view that picture in IE9.
It's a Lolzcat meme picture.
 
@cooky451 ? how would that matter? (disclaimer haven't look at your code)
@tom_mai78101 Opera on linux worked ^ why would it not?
 
@cooky451 The code never actually accesses p[0], only *d, so there's no aliasing violation.
I think.
Plus, char* is allowed to alias anyway.
 
I'm running HyperVisor VM, with Linux running VirtualBox running Windows Vista running Windows 7 x64, and typing into Win7 x64 IE9 with you guys.
Real men uses VM for almost everything these days.
 
@tom_mai78101 complicate things much? I'd be interested to know what kind of earplugs you use to ignore the screaming of fans and harddisk spindles around your pc
 
@sehe I'm using the HyperVisor xSphere Client. :P
 
sbi
7:28 PM
 
Oh, well I'm typing into virtualboxed WinXp 64 right now and there's only one disk spinning on my desk. I'd say about 26dB
 
@sbi Hehe, that one is awesome.
(Got it from @cstross, too?)
 
@sehe The Super Computer is at school, and I'm in my dorm, 1 mile away.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Actually Twitter seems to be buzzing with it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok. So if p was short[42] and would have been accessed before, then it would be UB also due to strict aliasing? (Because I have no compiler to test it, since even GCC doesn't even give a warning when a new variable is created.)
 
7:29 PM
@cooky451 I'm inclined to say yes, but the only person I know that fully understands those rules is @Johannes.
 
Ell
does anyone else find Tim & Eric incredibly funny?
 
sbi
Damn, I don't know what my computer is doing, but CPU peeks at 100% every few minutes, but is low again the moment I look.
In Quake, however, the dropping framerate is deadly. :(
 
AFK, cleaning my 3:30 AM breakfast.
 
> I really wish this was true.
 
@sbi Reboot? Fixes mostly everything.
 
7:31 PM
@tom_mai78101 cheater
 
@sehe Hehe...
 
@tom_mai78101 Also, what a waste. Running Win764 virtualized on a fine supercomputer
 
sbi
@tom_mai78101 I shun that. Plus, it's very likely FF. It always acts up after a week or so. I hate restarting FF, though. It takes forever to reopen all my tabs...
 
@sehe You mean Linux > Vista > 7 x64
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hm.. okay. It's kind of awkward since the section 3.10/10 isn't even very large, maybe they (the committee) should clarify things a bit there.
 
7:32 PM
@cooky451 My understanding is that in general you can appropriate the storage space of some POD type without trouble if you always access that storage as the same type (plus the exception for char).
 
Ell
@sbi you leave firefox permanently on?
 
Trying to detour CallWindowProc (using detours 3.0) in a global hook. For the moment I just call the original CallWindowProc function without touching the parameters and that works for a while but eventually there are messages that cause the receiving wndproc to hang. These messages seem to be non WM_ messages.
 
@sbi switch to opera? 2 seconds, all 20 tabs loaded
 
Otherwise std::aligned_storage would be worthless.
 
Any ideas?
 
7:32 PM
@sbi You can poke around in the Task Manager, and see if any processes are spiking the CPU. If yes, that's your culprit.
 
@tom_mai78101 Well, yeah, but that is just silly anyway. I was referring to the supercomputer killing
 
sbi
@Ell Huh? I leave everything permanently on. Well, except when I put the machine to sleep, that is.
 
@sehe Heck, no problemo. I'll just reboot, and let administrators angry at me.
 
sbi
@sehe 20 tabs? Are you kidding me?! I have about 250 of them!
 
7:34 PM
@sbi 192 GB of RAM?
 
sbi
@tom_mai78101 As I said, every time I notice this and look, it's already down again.
 
Well... We're not all king of the jungle.
In my defense, I store several sessions. But honestly, I can't (and won't) juggle > 40 tabs
 
@sbi Did you set the update speed frequency to High?
 
sbi
@tom_mai78101 FF? No. 1.3GB, currently.
 
@sbi you have 250 tabs open?
 
7:35 PM
@tom_mai78101 My current 20 tabs run at 681M, which is on a 64bit linux
 
Ell
I have 8 or 9 tabs open in opera max
 
sbi
@tom_mai78101 Sigh. Can't your read? "...CPU peeks at 100% every few minutes..."
 
@Ell So how many in FF + Chrome?
 
Can't you write?
 
The most tabs I can open is about 46, that's when my client starts getting sloppy.
 
7:35 PM
SCNR.
 
Clients?
Sloppy?
 
@sbi Oh, my bad.
 
I understand that may come across as over the top.
 
sbi
@bamboon I dunno. I certainly didn't count them. But I have 7 browser windows open, and some of them have dozens of tabs.
 
Ell
@sehe opera is the best browser by far in my opinion :L
 
7:36 PM
@sehe I only open 1 VM client, and when I get to 46, it lags. I think it's dued to heavy embardment.
@sehe Oh I get what you mean.
 
sbi
@sehe I can't even juggle 20 tabs. How do you think I end up with so many of them open?
 
What's "embardment"?
 
@Ell It certainly is quick, and does keyboard in amazing fashion. Gestures is cool for browsing porn Boost documentation and session support is so reliable, I love it
 
"Gestures" and "porn" in the same sentence.
 
VM Client > Linux running VM > Vista running VM > 7.

I only see the HyperVisor VM on the very outside., Hence, I said 1.
 
sbi
7:38 PM
@sehe We'll report that to your wife.
 
@sbi Makes a fair point. You should one time devote some time to killing some tabs. Will make the browser experience more predictable (especially in the light of unexplained slowdowns and CPU peaks)
@RMartinhoFernandes I thought you wouldn't notice
 
@sbi Did you try closing the tabs?
 
@tom_mai78101 Sloppy?
 
@sbi Report what exactly? That he uses Opera?
 
sbi
@sehe I do clean up my tabs about every other month.
 
7:38 PM
She loves the gestures too.
And she's cool with my relationship with the boost documentation
 
Ell
@sbi do you actually just leave it running permanently? Never close it?
 
@sehe The sloppy part is used to describe how the latency reacts when I'm using VM.
 
sbi
@tom_mai78101 I am not going to go through 250 tabs now, to sort them out, when restarting FF would do as well.
 
@tom_mai78101 Sloppy -> sluggish/lagging. Ok, get it
 
For instance, CS lags so hard, it's getting sloppy.
ok
 
7:39 PM
@sbi Closing, would be enough
 
sbi
@sehe Ah, one of those wifes, then. :)
@sehe But some of them have useful stuff open, which I'll rediscover when I go through them!
 
@sehe Why would you need to consult the documentation, when you already knew how to use Boost?
 
I have a feeling I'm missing some subtext.
 
god fucking damn it
 
@RMartinhoFernandes subtextual.org
 
7:40 PM
why is Programmers full of ignorant morons?
 
@DeadMG He will, patience
 
@sbi And you don't even remember opening it! It's like some stranger put it there.
 
@DeadMG Log out, fixed
 
as if the simplest string class in the world qualifies as "efficient"
 
@DeadMG Because you're there! SCNR.
 
Ell
7:41 PM
@DeadMG what has someone said?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes lol, naaiss
 
Ell
oh
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I was quicker (though a bit veiled) :)
 
sbi
@Ell I hate rebooting. With the hybrid suspend mode @RMartinho showed me, my machine is up in <10secs. With booting, it takes minutes. In fact, I'm at the point where I try to skip every other patchday.
 
@DeadMG Link?
 
7:42 PM
11
A: Is there a language between C and C++?

DeadMG However, C doesn't have these simple, helpful doodads that C++ offers like classes, simplified non-cstring handling, etc. I know that it's all possible to implement in C using jump tables and the like, but that's a bit wordy at times, and not very type-safe for various reasons. I'...

 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course I remember! When I see them!
 
@sbi New machine. My desktop is up from reboot in 30 seconds. Sadly, that is because it spends 22 seconds (!!!) in BIOS/POST and some fancy Intel Array thingy
 
sbi
@DeadMG A language between C and C++? That must be Java, then, right?
 
(C + C++)/2.
 
Ell
@sehe my machine takes ages in BIOS and about 16 seconds after
 
7:44 PM
(Yes, I know it's UB)
 
Ell
(C++ + --C) / 2
 
C 3/2?
 
sbi
@sehe I have this €3k laptop my employer gave me in 2009. Until this falls apart and they will have to give me a new one, it's the newest I can have. (I reinstalled in 2010, though.)
 
@Ell Annoying, isn't it? Kind-a takes the fun out of optimizing things.
 
sbi
Anyway, I have just confirmed that it's FF which does this. I will have to reboot it. Sigh. Not tonight, though. I'll go to bed early tonight.
 
7:45 PM
@sbi GOOD THING YOU REMIND ME! I got mailed last wednesday that I should pick specs for my new company laptop. That I never hardly use. Apparently, it has reached EOL
 
@sehe You do know there will be a place for dual core BIOS in the future, granted that R & D fundings are sufficient.
 
that deadalnix guy is as bad as SK-logic
 
@tom_mai78101 Meh. Don't need no fricking gymnastics in the BIOS. Just let it have no responsibilities and let the OS take over.
 
@sehe Hybrid BIOS/OS mode... I liked that.
 
@sehe That can be turned off, I think.
 
7:47 PM
@DeadMG You know, they probably think the same of you.
 
sbi
@sehe Since I worked at a company where they issued everyone a desktop machine and a laptop, and I, asked about it, wanted a powerful laptop, never mind the weight, I got so used to use a laptop exclusively, it's now part of my job interviews to pull the (impressively heavy) thing out of my pack, present to to a prospect employer, and say that I am used to working with this, and want one should I work for them.
 
There is some kind of open-boot or open-bios (that is a completely open-source bios implementation/spec). Can't find a link right now
 
hey
in that specific conversation, I did never once inflict any ad-hominems upon my debate opponents
 
@sbi lol. Tought job
 
@sbi Aw... You should try bragging about Alienware, putting it out to your employers, and let them know who's the boss in town.
 
sbi
7:49 PM
@sehe So far, it's worked out pretty well.
 
@DeadMG Sorry, talking in general. I haven't read all the comment threads yet.
 
@DeadMG Yeah, I suppose the Matrix thingy is optional. However, I have used it in the past and frankly, I'm not bothered enough to fix it
 
it's the one on the top answer
 
sbi
@tom_mai78101 I'm not writing games, so I can hardly ask for a gaming laptop.
 
the guy suggests that D is the solution, and I suggest that it's sub-optimal, which promptly inspires the other guy to descend from wherever he was hiding and flame away
 
7:49 PM
@sbi Oh.
 
@DeadMG So you admit that he was coming from a more elevated/superior position :)
 
@DeadMG In general, I think of all programming languages are like high-level versions of assembly language.
@sehe Descend from hell, I suppose?
 
@tom_mai78101 I hope you don't mean what you said. I've seen programmer code in that spirit, and I wouldn't want you on near my team if it were true
@tom_mai78101 work with me. Descent is not a supported operation in hell
 
@sehe So, we can't visualize that way? Or I'm grasping something that my school didn't taught me about?
 
@tom_mai78101 ? I don't understand your question.
 
7:53 PM
In short, I'm in lack of sufficient knowledge around programming languages.
 
There are several languages where you'll have a really hard time seeing the assembly for the trees.
 
hi all! :)
 
Hi
@sehe And I didn't get that. Descend and Descent are different words.
 
Declarative languages in general, can hide the assembly very well.
 
7:54 PM
IMO, The thing with assembly languauge, in this context, is that there is no use in trying to evade the 'incidental' complexity: in essence 'It will all look the same': no matter what the program does, no matter how you design it, no matter how you organize the code, it will still be this endless stream of iso-morphic code.
@tom_mai78101 Yes and there is a well-defined relation between those words. Focus more on the work with me part?
 
Who has worked with genetic alogrithms?
 
Ell
bang bang robbers and cops,
band band robbers and cops,
bang bang,
rob that bank,
robbers and cops,
robbers and cops
(does anyone get this?)
 
@sehe Is that a periphrasing of Greenspun's tenth rule?
 
@tommai78101 I've seen programmers write code in highlevel languages, as if the same 'hopelessness' applied; that is unforgiveable since code is for humans, not just for compilers and the way you write it matters.
Else, just go and use brainfuck
 
goes out to check if periphrase is an English word
 
7:57 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Looking that up. Perhaps it is :)
 
@sehe Ah, I now get the point.
 
@Ell What's name of this song? :) Who is author?
 
Damn, English uses it for something else.
 
paraphrase is English, I think
 
The Portuguese word formed from the same Greek roots (períphrasis) means the opposite of paraphrase.
 
7:59 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes you mean periphrase ~= circumlocution?
 
let it be, write in C , not C++
 
I've never heard of periphrase or any opposite to paraphrase
 
@sehe Oh, yep.
> Circumlocution (also called periphrasis, circumduction, circumvolution, periphrase, or ambage) is an ambiguous or roundabout figure of speech.
 
Anyways, no I didn't mean it as a paraphrase of the 10th rule.
 

« first day (533 days earlier)      last day (4401 days later) »