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00:41
is it me, or does rafe just not get it? stackoverflow.com/q/4772893/511601
wow some people when they are quoting put actually the '>' in front of each single line!
i became very depressed when I did back in my first SO days. And became quite happy when i figured you only need one '>' before the first line of each paragraph.
paragraphs should be a single line anyway
if you use SO's builtin "" button, then it will break the paragraph into physical lines and put >es in front. editing the quote then becomes a PITA xD
yes, the editor sucks
 
1 hour later…
02:16
And, I just have to say, strong coffee is always the answer.
02:59
I didn't realize we'd be able to vote people down for moderator... now I'm really glad I didn't run.
03:12
I started to on one, got the critic badge, then realized the votes count as votes on your profile :(
it's not worth diluting my message there for the sake of voting for moderators, so I retracted all my votes and will abstain from this stage
03:37
There is nothing wrong with downvoting.
I believe there is
 
1 hour later…
04:47
Example fo ungood downvoting: stackoverflow.com/questions/4796777/…
I think my answer was the only constructive one for that question.
that question has no constructive answers, because the poster is just confused and doesn't provide enough information to help them
Well, if the user wants to render a triangle, perhaps it would be a good idea for him to first understand the difference between triangles, circles, and rectangles.
a similarly pointless, due to lack of information, question; even if fun to playfully answer for a moment :)
@FredNurk There's no need to answer playfully since one can indeed generate graphics with plain standard C++. E.g. I mentioned SVG. I think my answer was the only constructive one for that question, and I think it's remarkable how many folks claim that something that is so well known and trivially easy to do, should be "impossible"
@AlfPSteinbach I think he was referring to my sarcastic answer to the other question.
04:55
more to yours, james, yes :)
but SVG, given what info we do have from the other asker, doesn't look to be helpful either
@AlfPSteinbach I'm not trying to say you did anything wrong by mentioning options, but when someone asks the wrong questions or doesn't provide enough information, there's little you can do, and you can do even less on a site like SO
though "please describe the reason for your downvote so that others can see that it's silly" doesn't help anything
I don't see any info "other asker". but anyway, it's almost as illogical as tina apparently is right now, claiming on the chat that see can't see or use the chat
"other" meant your question, since I had just mentioned james' answer
one can't pass through a closed door. this door is closed. ergo, no way to pass through
@AlfPSteinbach see "Based on the OP comments elsewhere in this thread, it sounds like he wants to do this by direct manipulation of the low-level instructions on the various pieces of hardware used for rendering images." in the accepted answer there
SVG will not help with that endeavor; mentioning SVG is a plausibly valid answer, just like "that elephant isn't purple" is a valid sentence – it's just not useful for this person
@FredNurk So readers of an answer are expected to search the comments of all other answers to find "clarifications" of the question?
(This chat UI sucks, btw.)
05:05
yes, it does suck
I wouldn't say SVG is a "plausibly valid" answer. It is a completely valid and correct answer to the question. Not including hidden in-comment later clarification of q.
no, I am not saying you did anything wrong; trying to answer that question is putting yourself in an impossibly hard spot in the first place, because there's no really right answer
I said plausibly because it is true that you didn't say anything false, yet it still doesn't help – answers are supposed to help the asker, right? not just make true statements?
@FredNurk I would say it helps and completely solves the question, as asked.
note that downvotes mean "not useful", not "wrong"
if I wanted to downvote, I would probably downvote most answers there (but I dont' think I read every one)
"not useful" is very subjective. do you really mean that you downvote based on whether an answer is useful to you? like, ooh, can't ken this math, not useful, downvote!
05:09
@AlfPSteinbach you're looking at it too simply, but I feel like I can only go in circles trying to elaborate; I'll just leave it at "you didn't help the asker", regardless of whether you are "right" or "wrong"
@AlfPSteinbach read the tooltip for the downvote arrow
is Stack Overflow then about completely subjective question and answers? you're saying i should read up on tucked-away comment elaborating on subjective meaning of question. and you say downvote is for subjective usefulness.
people take voting way too seriously, often interpreting downvotes as malicious "I hate you!" (and this is a significant portion of why I won't downvote); yet the point of the system repeatedly is said to promote the best answers above all others, and downvote=unuseful fits that
yeah, "said to"
i think that's just herd in action
thread in question shows completely useless answers upvoted (they're useless since don't help to achieve what's asked)
said by Jeff and Joel, in the podcasts (which I listened to before beta) and on their blog posts – not herd mentality, but the stated purpose of the site's founders
I used to cry when I got downvoted. (Not really.)
05:13
@AlfPSteinbach I already said people downvote subjectively; are you surprised they upvote subjectively too? :)
looking through the top-voted questions (like "best features"), I realized how much crap was really on SO, and how much votes can, sometimes, not reflect much of anything
05:25
@James: that is weird; don't think I've ever met another with that preference, once they've had, say ~1-2 years C or C++ experience
@FredNurk: Well, I'm weird then.
2
I have no objection at all to the use of ->; I just tend not to use it with iterators, for no logical reason whatsoever.
like, you'd use -> with pointers?
Sure.
I just like the way (*it) looks...
@alf: here's another example: (see my comment especially) stackoverflow.com/questions/4801524/… if the answer had just been "you could specialize std::less for your type", then even though it's perfectly 100% "correct", it would not be useful
@james: but you don't like the way it looks with pointers? or, rather, why don't you prefer the way it looks with pointers (to match your preference with non-pointers)?
@FredNurk That still wouldn't be correct; the OP doesn't have a set at all, he has a vector.
05:30
okay, with the whole last paragraph rather than just my paraphrasing :)
@FredNurk I don't know. I just have a bizarre preference when it comes to usage of -> and * on iterators. I can't defend it.
the asker is confused here too, because the question starts out with a hypothetical (which the answer I linked addresses), then goes into a completely different concrete situation
@JamesMcNellis just trying to understand it
@FredNurk You're saying my answer was correct but too vague to be useful. I don't understand that. It sounds illogical to me. Completely. No relation to reality.
I don't think I said vague, but here's an example of that: Where is France? Planet Earth.
too vague to be useful, still 100% correct; you would agree with that?
yes
but what's that got to do with concrete advice on how to generate graphics in standard C++?
05:34
it's not that different, conceptually, with my point
i mean, if someone doesn't master cout <<, then OK, the answer is too vague for him or her. but really.
 
3 hours later…
08:12
@JamesMcNellis I met someone who had a very strong opinion that having iterators overload -> was fundamentally wrong and that you should always use (*it).. I shall try and dig out his reasoning.
sbi
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach It wasn't. There are other constructive answers. (Unless you count "no, there's no way to do this in plain C++" as non-constructive.)
Oh, and that's not only an example of bad down-voting (which it is, indeed), but also of bad reaction to it. The down-vote might have a legitimate reason and make you look silly, after all. It's just that, without the reason given, we don't know.
@sbi Yes, I think "no way" is non-constructive. :-) It could be constructive if "this" was clarified, because it's clearly a statement made under one quite specific interpretation of the question. It's useful to know that something specific isn't possible, but it's non-constructive to indicate that "whatever you mean, it's impossible"
sbi
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach Well, I disagree then, but you are, of course, entitled to your own POV.
@sbi I don't think the downvote could have a legitimate reason, but yes, an explanation might make me look silly. It's not difficult to make people look silly.
Well as I see it's not a POV. It's about not making assumptions. Very important. Like, WordPress assumes that any C++ tag is a "c" tag and assumes further that any "c" tag must be referring to C#, so hey, let's present that "C++" as "C#". I hope you can see both the invalid generalization, and the invalid specialization, there, yes?
08:28
@CharlesBailey having two ways to dereference is fundamentally confusing, and I can see a good argument it is wrong. however, in light of dealing with existing code and that C++ has always tried to be C-compatible, we must overload -> for iterators – and it's often nicer to type :)
sbi
sbi
@AlfPSteinbach If you don't make any assumptions, you cannot answer a single question. Some assumptions you always need to make. But IMO your answer was good because you didn't assume what others did (see results immediately on the screen) and I upvoted you for this.
@sbi by the same token, assuming a non-obvious interpretation of the question, such as he wants to generate a SVG data file rather actually display something now, is much more likely to confuse the asker and simply be an irrelevant answer. if you need clarification, ask for it.
sbi
sbi
@FredNurk Actually what is bad is that iterators do not overload operator->*(). Try to apply a member pointer to an object that's in a sequence where all you have is an iterator to.
(Well, I do admit that this is rarely ever needed. I ran into this once in almost years of C++.)
@FredNurk Your last sentence applies to the asker, too, though. If he's confused by some answer, he could just ask to have it clarified.
the (*some_iter)->member situation, which I can't remember exactly, is confusing too
@FredNurk I use that all the time
08:35
@Tony That sounds like you use too many "containers of pointers" or similar. Fortunately I only have to use that sort of thing very rarely.
@Tony you never wish you could just use some_iter->member? (considering how -> is supposed to be recursive)
@FredNurk of course I wish I could use it like that, however it does not seem to be possible, so I have to type a few chars more to get it to work
@CharlesBailey in the current project I am doing I do use quite a few of those yes
but not a boost pointer container, which simplifies this? :)
might do, cannot remember
08:51
don't suppose anyone has seen a defect report or other material on the conformity of stackoverflow.com/questions/4801411/…?
Anyone have a preferred unit testing library?
sbi
sbi
Couldn't someone make a good FAQ Q/A about using arrays in C++ (passing them around, creating multi-dimensional ones, etc.) so that we can point those to it who ask the daily dozen of always the same array questions?
@sbi We could just point them at the pointers FAQ. They are the same thing, after all.
sbi
sbi
@CharlesBailey You make me cry.
@sbi didn't know people could have such effect on you :)
sbi
sbi
09:09
@Tony What? What, if not people, makes you cry?
"What if Visual Studio had Achievements?"
@sbi of course people can make me cry, but not the one's on a SO chat... haha :p
09:30
you're mean, I'm taking my ball^H^H^H^Hpointers and going home
 
1 hour later…
10:59
Why has this question been removed: stackoverflow.com/questions/175074 ?
It exists in google cache, but stackoverflow gives page not found (webcache.googleusercontent.com/…)
11:31
@Default Because unfortunately it was deemed off-topic by the powers that be
12:02
well thats a pity.. there are alot of of topics on SO that still remain :P I thought that one was pretty funny..
there are lots of funny things which don't belong on SO, some of which even relate to actual programming instead of just TV shows talking about programming
12:57
does anyone know of any good podcasts related to programming?
oh, found a question about it. related one: can anyone recommend a good news letter? I'm signed up to CodeProject which I really like
13:27
what are the drawbacks of visual studio express compared to the payed version?
@Default Nothing major. I believe you don't have a resource editor or something.
@FredOverflow oh, ok.
I don't think I ever use that anyway :)
@FredOverflow thanks :)
@Default There are at least two interviews about C++.
One with Scott Meyers and one with Kevlin Henney.
13:38
cool, I was actually looking for more about the upcoming standard
@Default Do you also take videos? :)
any newsletters you know of as well? :)
yup. actually I got an ipad for christmas, so that's why I am looking at podcasts
No, but cpp-next.com is about the next standard.
I found C9 yesterday, gonna start looking at them as soon as possible
This is Bjarne's latest video about C++0x that I'm aware of.
13:41
Yellow..
This is also a great video about C++0x.
saving bookmarks
I have a keyboard hook that gets some CTRL released messages even if I'm not tapping ctrl. Any idea where they're coming from?
@72con The key to the right of the space bar?
It's called "Alt Gr" in Germany, and I think it behaves like a combination of Alt and Ctrl.
thanks @FredOverflow :) much thankful
13:44
I don't actually know which one, the left or right, my if clause catches them both..
Ok.. not tapping on Alt gr either..
To be a bit more specific, I don't need to tap on anything and I get some of those CTRL messages (quite frequently; one every couple of seconds?)
it almost sounds like you have some other program generating them, perhaps accidentally; but you should rule out obvious possibilities, like unplugging that keyboard and trying one from a completely different manufacturer
If they are generated (I assume they must be) would it help to check the keystate?
13:59
you haven't said what api you're using, but I'd hope it would keep up/down messages in sync with the keystate it reports; so no, I don't see how checking the state would help
I don't know – don't really see anything you can definitely do until you figure out more about what's happening
14:24
Just wondering if it's possible to do cloth simulation on a GPU using vertex shaders? As far as I read most games still do it on the CPU, any ideas?
14:43
Here’s a brain teaser for you guys:
0
Q: SFINAE: detect if class has free function

Konrad RudolphIs there a way, using SFINAE, to detect whether a free function is overloaded for a given class? Basically, I’ve got the following solution: struct has_no_f { }; struct has_f { }; void f(has_f const& x) { } template <typename T> enable_if<has_function<T, f>::value, int>...

(but I rather suspect that there is no solution)
Interesting problem Konrad
what limitations do we have regarding to modification of the definition(s) of f?
or really any other information about it, like, it always returns void, or?
@DeadMG: did you recognize that you can't use SFINAE in a function body? (was leaving a comment when I got the error)
because I already deleted my answer?
@DeadMG sorry, was away – return type is always void, modifying the definitions … hmm, what did you have in mind?
yes, the error was that I couldn't comment
14:56
I did know that,but I keep forgetting it because it's pants on head retarded
well
if you modified f() to always return a type of a given size
you could have size_of_different_type f(...)
and then compare the sizeof(f(T()) == sizeof(size_of_normal_return_type));
hmm … you mean having a templated “default” f implementation that returns a different type?
might be possible …
that is how normal SFINAE works
although the default f should take ellipsis, not be templated
I’m not sure if that’s such a good idea here since the user supplies the f function along with his type, and having a dummy return value is kind of FUBAR in API design ;)
I’ll have to think about this
without decltype, there's nothing more you can do
true, true
15:00
@KonradRudolph shouldn't enable_if<has_function<T, f>::value, int>::type be enable_if<has_function<T, f> >::type?
you should write it as an answer in any case
I would
but I actually can't get it to compile on MSVC10 :P
it keeps throwing an error instead of picking the other overload
@FredNurk dunno, is that how enable_if is defined in 0x? I only know the Boost syntax (I was using the boost::enable_if_c syntax in my example)
@DeadMG you'd want is_same_type with a unique sentinel type, rather than checking size
@FredNurk: Except you can't determine the return type without decltype
at least, not in this context
15:02
well, for arbitrary functions, checking size won't work; you'll get false positives
that's why I asked about the restrictions imposable on f
@KonradRudolph the former code sample is directly from your question, the latter works for boost
@KonradRudolph looks like you left off _c in your code (which adds the ::value that I removed) and you have an int return type for some reason
@Fred I omitted the _c … I was under the impression that in TR1 the normal version and the _c version were unified. Didn’t check though.
I tend to follow boost rather than tr1
I'm not sure how they could be unified that way, though
remember it's just template<class T, class R=void> struct enable_if : enable_if_c<T::value, R> {};
I dislike how my code doesn't work
even though I'm pretty sure that I got it right
15:10
I am scared of entry requirements for masters degree programs: stackoverflow.com/q/4805968/511601
that's not the entry requirements, that's his final thesis
which means he's made it past the entry requirements :) it could be much worse, but there's little telling how much so
true
but I've seen some master's thesis which are just writing or playing games
it wasn't the subject of the thesis that shocked me, but the quality of the writing
@DeadMG It compiles in GCC, apart from the missing return statement in non-void functions
15:14
oh yeah
Visual Studio throws a bunch of errors saying that the return type could not be deduced because the test was false
though I wrote my own enable_if so I don’t know … perhaps the std version does need the _c?
there is no enable_if_c in std
ok, so I was right after all
what even is enable_if_c?
I can't imagine two alternative interfaces to enable_if
anyway, I don’t know why you’re complaining about the poor chap’s question … I know lots of comp.sci. master students who have never programmed C++
beginning with C++ for your thesis is incredibly hard
15:16
@KonradRudolph I find that scary
the _c variant is used in Boost for use with bool constants instead of truthy types
@Tony What’s that?
that lots of Master students have never coded C++
or probably just never coded
I posted my code as an answer Konrad
but can't work out why it won't compile in Visual Studio 10
@Tony: well, about never having coded C++, I don’t find that very odd. C++ is just one out of many languages and if you don’t work in an area where it’s important, why learn it?
I hate that Java is used so pervasively to teach CS, but using C++ isn’t the only alternative
true
but if you're doing CS I'd expect you'd be interested in coding... no?
15:19
@DeadMG (Have you tried using template <typename T> __int16 f(T) instead of ?
Konrad, which version of GCC?
no change
4.5.1.
hm :(
@KonradRudolph it wasn't being new to C++ that shocked me, but the quality of the writing
hmm
@Tony Of course (though whether most are is another matter entirely, and that’s scary) … but C++?
15:21
there's nothing special about C++
being new to C++ is no different to being new to Python, Lua, Java, C# or PHP
@DeadMG nothing indeed, just fairly difficult at times
@DeadMG except a lot more painful
yes
@FredNurk To be honest, quite a few spelling errors and sketchy grammar ;)
but it's not inherently wrong or shocking
that's @Tony, by the way
15:22
@KonradRudolph exactly; how has he managed to turn in academic papers to get this far?
hmm, oh wait, I think I just misread some comments
maybe he doesn't study in an English country?
I've been thinking about a CS degree, wondering if it is worth the effort though?
I'm half way through mine
it's, well, kind of depressing
the vast majority of it seems to be incredibly abstract with little or no connection to an actual computing device
and they design and hype these systems which fit arbitrary mathematical definitions instead of being actually useful or programmable
hmmm
there's no module here on, how to write maintainable code, or, concurrency
I was amazed
no concurrency module!
wtf is this place I study at
15:25
but things like big O and the different algo's should be useful, no?
sure
if you want to spend an entire degree for a one-semester algorithms module
@Tony Yes, definitely. But DeadMG is right, the lack of practice is depressing
more than that
it bothers me the way that every subject is approached in so little detail
@KonradRudolph you are talking about actually sitting down and coding one of these algo's or whatever?
we did HTML, but only enough to render a tiny bit of text or something, then move on
and it's like, well, that's great, I'm gonna go out and make websites now... oh wait
15:26
@DeadMG that kinda sucks
we did C++ for five weeks
the lecturer demonstrated operator overloads taking const references before describing const OR references
@Tony most courses don’t include programming at all, and those that do only have it as an exercises, don’t put focus on it, don’t teach it, in one word
no heap, no memory management
no RAII
pfff
CS bachelor students at my Uni have one (!) practical project during their entire course of studies
15:27
sounds like I'm better of just learning by myself then
before the thesis, of course
and I was like, come on, stop wasting time, either teach me C++ or find something else to actually teach me.
@DeadMG so where did you learn C++ then?
although, to be entirely entirely fair, my university DOES offer a software engineering degree or something like that
on the webs, where else?
hmm interesting
15:28
I followed some crappy tutorial to get the basics down
then I came here for the more advanced learning
it's just for job hunting - a CS degree looks better on the CV
although it might not mean much
@Tony: the problem is programming is often treated as a small subset of compsci instead of as software engineering
unless you have loads of experience...
there's nothing like posting it on SO to get the crap beaten out of your code
(even if they use the words "software engineering")
@Tony the value on the resume is probably the most value from the degree itself (I wonder how true this is for most degrees), while what you do yourself is where you actually learn how to program
15:30
yes
@FredNurk sounds like I shouldn't bother then
I would leave my degree right now
but I'm still on it because I've got no confidence in finding a job without one
hell, I'm on the Master's course
@DeadMG that's the problem i face
If I ever want a decent wage for doing any software dev, I kinda need a degree I think
exactly
@Tony don't underestimate the value of listing it on a resume :) as the saying goes, "finishing high school shows you can finish what you start, getting a degree shows you can put up with other people's bullshit"
15:31
but, of course
if I finish Dark Sky and it sells a few copies, that's going to be an alternative route
plus getting your foot in the door (= resume looked at) is required if your goal is a career
saying that I wrote my own game, did all the programming and design and art myself, is going to be a big boost
if I ever finish it
and since I'm a student, and one with a pretty good existing grip of programming, then it's not like I don't have the time
@DeadMG you definitely have more programming knowledge then me it seems
dude
although mine isn't bad, I can definitely still learn from you guys
15:34
that's the wimp's attitude
programming is an excellent field because, if you have a new idea, then the cost of spreading that idea is nothing
so the best way to go is crack on
I didn't really know C++ until I failed my first ambitious projects
@DeadMG how's that a wimps attitude?
I'm not saying I'm not learning all the time, I am, just saying I still got a lot to learn...
because you're effectively stating the assumption that any code that I produce is superior to yours
because I am more knowledgeable than you
hmmm...
perhaps you have a point
but that's not how it works, because a piece of code is an idea, and you can produce your own code and it can be good in other ways or perform functions that I never even thought of
I could look at your code and dump it in the bin because I'm narrow minded and set in existing practices and can't understand your code, and reject it as poor, even though it might be genius
effective comparison of ideas takes place completely ignorant of their originator
hmm you have an interesting way of looking at it
never saw it like this before...
15:38
the miracle of the scientific method, buddy
I learnt something :)
@DeadMG what country you doing the CompSci degree in?
I'm thinking of doing it in UK
wondered if anyone done it in UK around here?
@Tony I haven't, but I've been to the UK a few times. People complain about the cost of college. In the UK, the simple cost of living (especially in or near London) is extremely high. They do have some very good schools though...
I'm in the UK
oh cool
if you were thinking of doing it in the UK
I'd do it soon
because the tuition fees are going to triple for next year, or maybe the year after that
I pay £3,300 for tuition, but by 2013 it will be £9,000
per year
15:46
OMG! That's insanely high
the government loans you the money under extremely good terms
I'd have to do it part time and find a part time job there (hard...)
no, that's not necessary
cost of living?
the terms of the loans are that you only start paying them back after you start earning over a certain threshold
you get a loan for that too
15:47
oh interesting
although if your parents have money, they won't loan you enough to live on
also, I'm pretty sure that if you're not a UK citizen, you don't get any loans and the costs are even higher
hmmm might be a problem then
not a big deal
I'm sure I can get some parent support if I really wanted to do it
I get the minimum loans and my parents pay me some money, I don't work and have plenty to live on
15:48
need to improve on my maths first I think though
my flatmate gets the maximum loans and easily survives
hmm
I wouldn't worry about it too much
the university aims at the lowest common denominator- they will reject candidates with maths results that are too low and they will re-teach all necessary concepts from scratch
we did vectors, matrices, basic trig and stuff again in our first year
which is lucky, because I completely bombed my A-level results
you should have seen my score card, it was hilarious
A-A-A-A-E-U in Law modules, for example
oh wow
I was very lucky that I scored very highly in my first year and the first modules in my second year
because I totally failed all of my second year summer exams
I understand the basics of matrices, vectors, calculus etc... but not the more advanced stuff
every single one of them
you won't need the more advanced stuff
the maths we use is stuff like boolean algebra that you won't get taught in any school or A-level course
15:54
but the stuff I've seen being taught in CompSci is doing all these big O calculations that use Summations and various other things
I've not done any of that
but then, I am only half way through
and statistics for analyzing randomized algorithms
oh I see
maybe it will come
more importantly, the university holds your hand quite strongly, I found
the few topics we breached that I didn't understand, it was very easy to get through
ok
truth be told, I hate it and want to get out, but
I need their approval to get on with my career
15:56
gosh....
I think you should finish it, cause it will get you in places easier (for a job)
if you don't have a degree, lots of companies won't even consider you I've found
yeah
I'm going to try my best to finish it
cool
but excuse me for working on my indie projects as much as I can in my spare time
on the plus side
Visual Studio 2010 Ultimate for freebies for academic use
that's cool, at least you get lots of practise
indeed
Microsoft is excellent and they give away a LOT of free software to students
I can even get Windows 7 Ultimate for free
15:59
:) nice
it is
they came to my university advertising for undergraduates to join their interns programme

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