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6:00 PM
lol dat poop video
))<>((
 
> video
 
> What is the best IDE with GUI for it? Code has to be hidden, so obfuscation won't be enough.
 
clueless
 
Ell
more then clueless
 
less before clueless
 
6:04 PM
less if cluemore
lazy claymore
if I buy a PC box does a CPU vent comes with it?
 
@Mr.kbok cpu vent?
cases normally come with an assortment of case fans
 
a fan, sorry
 
@Mr.kbok CPU vent? You mean CPU cooler?
 
yes
 
cpu fans come with cpus
 
6:07 PM
oh xD
last time I bought a CPU was '08
 
Ell
it'd be weird if the case assumed a particular CPU
 
Aug 18 at 17:06, by Alex M.
I may be wrong because I tried with pepsi in the fridge and coke outside so it may be that pepsi has less resistance to co2 loss
nope, same with coke
they both lose co2 like crazy when in the fridge
after the initial opening
 
is this fridge specific though?
shit I have JUST NOT ENOUGH to buy my pc right now
 
all liquids can hold less stuff dissolved in them at lower temperatures.
 
@Mr.kbok Yes. If you refrigerate to 0 K, there's no CO2 loss from either.
 
6:14 PM
@JerryCoffin good luck finding that kind of fridge :)
If I buy the PC right now I can mount it this week end but then I risk having my taxes bounce
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok you can I have a high interest loan from me
 
@Puppy That's not true for gases
 
@Ell how high is it
 
@Mr.kbok The difficulty of finding such a thing makes such absolute statements much easier--nobody can contradict them from actual experience.
 
@Ell also IRTA internet loan lol
 
Ell
6:16 PM
50%
actually that's not so high
 
@JerryCoffin I could, from theory, though
 
Ell
but it depends if APR or w/e and I don't know finances
 
@Ell per year? month? day?
APR?
 
Ell
50000% APR
 
6:17 PM
whats apr
 
compounded per microsecond
 
@Ell Unless that's "per decade" (or something on that order) it's ridiculous.
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok annual percentage rate
it's like "equivalent per year interest" I think
I need to get better at finances
 
@bluefog Doesn't change much the rate
 
The term annual percentage rate of charge (APR), corresponding sometimes to a nominal APR and sometimes to an effective APR (or EAPR), describes the interest rate for a whole year (annualized), rather than just a monthly fee/rate, as applied on a loan, mortgage loan, credit card, etc. It is a finance charge expressed as an annual rate. Those terms have formal, legal definitions in some countries or legal jurisdictions, but in general: The nominal APR is the simple-interest rate (for a year). The effective APR is the fee+compound interest rate (calculated across a year). In some areas, the annual...
 
6:20 PM
@Ell Roughly, yes--mostly a way to compare rates. Otherwise, it's hard to be sure whether 5% compounded annually is more or less than, say, 4% compounded quarterly.
 
Ell
is there a measure which is "compounded per unit time"?
 
@Ell No, but the ultimate compounding reference is infinitely small (continuous compounding)
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok yeah that's what I meant, thanks
wait
is that an actual term?
 
which is?
 
Ell
"ultimate compounding reference"
 
6:23 PM
@JerryCoffin Should const [un]signed char* be a possible type for the error message expression? It wouldn't break code to not include it, and it seems weird to do so. On the other hand, ostream is fine with [un]signed char*...
 
@Ell no
 
Ell
Oh right
 
but you take my meaning
 
Ell
yah I do
Isn't there a way to represent that?
 
@Ell There's the loan shark approach: "compounded whenever the hell I feel like it, and compound fractures if you piss me off!"
 
Ell
6:24 PM
With some calculus there surely is
@JerryCoffin haha yeah
 
represent what?
 
Ell
compounding continuously
like, why do we use APR which compounds yearly to compare rates when we could use this one which compounded delta t?
 
it's just the exponential function :)
 
@Ell Because you need to know T before you can compare rates.
 
@Columbo Do you mean something like the string you pass when creating an std::exception derivative?
 
6:27 PM
@Ell it's more practical. Most people think about their loans by the year, not by the millisecond :D
 
Ell
I need to modify xelatex to allow me to put log files in a different directory
I think this is a reasonably possible open source change I could make
 
@Ell APR is the norm for consumer transparency, not for the mathematicians
@Ell is it latex for tumblr
 
Ell
it's latex for lecture notes
 
woosh
 
Ell
:(
 
6:28 PM
Not sure I really understood the message of Sean's talk either.
 
Ell
I don't use tumblr at all
 
What happened to my brain
 
@Ell xe latex
 
Ell
Oh lol
 
@AndyProwl Did it melt?
 
6:29 PM
@Tony that would explain
 
@AndyProwl hehe :)
 
@Mr.kbok le xatex!
 
Ell
I think it's time for me to drink a little again soo
 
cheers
 
@JerryCoffin I'm talking about static_assert messages.
 
6:37 PM
whats the best way to pause a source script with out system("pause") ?
 
delete it
 
@BartekBanachewicz But what do you want from it
 
@CS_STEM std::this_thread::sleep_for
 
"Database" means nothing by itself
 
Really abstract almost philosophical introduction then a concrete algorithmic part in the middle then some example of a forest data structure. The goal is "no incidental data structures" and I'm not sure what to make of it
 
6:40 PM
@bluefog is that to be at the end of main before the closing bracket or at namespace ?
 
@JerryCoffin I'll just go without it, whatever
 
@CS_STEM it should be where you want to delay execution
 
@Columbo Yeah--I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of difference. In most cases it's just going to be a literal anyway.
@CS_STEM For a result vaguely similar to system("pause");, just read a character from standard input.
 
by delay do you mean it performs the same function as cmd's timeout ?
 
@AndyProwl The one time I saw one of this talks I felt a little the same way--I found a lot of bits and pieces interesting, but I couldn't really put the pieces together into much of a coherent whole.
 
6:46 PM
@JerryCoffin how would just read the charecter from standard input?
 
@CS_STEM getchar() is one possibility. getch() is less portable, but a closer fit (responds immediately to almost any key, where getchar requires the user to hit the return key).
 
@CS_STEM yes. To read you can use std::cin.get() or something else
 
@JerryCoffin so getchar() is probably the closest thing to pause but does it give an output?
 
@CS_STEM No--if you want output, you'll have to print it out yourself (e.g,. std::cout << "Press enter to continue...";).
 
@JerryCoffin thats great Thank you, @bluefog Thank you,
 
6:54 PM
_getch() for Windooze
 
the Lounge; encouraging vampires since 2010
 
Or just use curses
Curses is luff, curses is lyph
 
All @DevolverDigital games are gluten free (except Broforce) so spread the word, nerds.
 
@Puppy The first dose is free... ;-}
 
@набиячлевэлиь BearLibTerminal or bust
 
7:01 PM
@Jerry Yeah. I'm wondering if going up to him and asking what the talk was really about is not going to be offensive
 
@набиячлевэлиь what does the "_" do?
 
@sehe I tried the grand piano, it's a 1.80 like you said. Sound is not particularly beautiful IMO but the acoustic in the theatre is brilliant, so quite enjoyable.
Also Herb insisted I'd play a bit more :D Probably nobody else did
 
@AndyProwl I can see where he might not like that too well (but at the same time, I see where it might be good if he heard it a few times).
 
@CS_STEM It's a character in the identifier
 
@AndyProwl Wait, you attended a talk by somebody and don't know what the talk is about?
 
7:08 PM
@набиячлевэлиь oh okay Thank you.
 
What's the title of the talk?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ With Sean Parent's talks, you start off thinking you know what they're about. You end up learning a lot--among other things, that you didn't have a clue what it was really going to be about.
 
@Jefff sort of
Data structure
 
damnit
one of my wings fell off.
whilst I was in the middle of re-entry.
 
Use a parachute
 
7:12 PM
He probably didn't brought one
 
of course I didn't, that's what the giant wings and jet engines are for
 
@CatPlusPlus instead of managing sockets myself, I wanted to commit data to the db and let the db sync propagate it to clients
 
Shit it went for lunch
*he wenr
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva oh certainly
 
*went
 
7:16 PM
okay so
back on my new shiny laptop
wat do
haskell or type theory
 
user406009
Neither.
 
I probably should not interrupt him having lunch with herb kalb bjarne and chandler
But it's nice to see them live
@Bartek yesterday there was a talk you would have loved
"Functional design"
 
what was on it
@Lalaland hmpfh
 
The guy was saying functional design makes OO design look very bad. I thought you would have nodded
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz yes
 
7:19 PM
Also I know I shouldn't laugh at competing answers but this one is hilarious
@AndyProwl oooh you reminded me I have an article to write
 
Basically it was about how to reason about a problem in terms of maths and derive an implementable design
 
I like the where thing in functions in haskell so much
 
Using functional building blocks
 
I just throw in the ideas and then fill in the details later
 
to be honest, I think OO has its uses
@AlexM. yeah, it actually makes you structure the code way more easily, and makes it clearer
 
user1804599
7:19 PM
@AndyProwl The first rule of OOP: define "OOP". The first rule of FP: define "FP".
 
He said Haskell is great but purrformance, so we need c++
 
Haskell is fast enough.
What we need is millions of dollars like node is getting
 
He says it's not
 
user1804599
Haskell is unsuitable for some applications that C++ is suitable for because of performance reasons.
 
FP and OOP are both useful and have their place
 
7:20 PM
Hi.
 
what's shit is languages that only offer one paradigm.
 
user1804599
For example, airbag controllers.
 
@Puppy I don't think so.
 
they are the definition of shit.
 
Every multiparadigm language I've seen is a giant clusterfuck when it comes to actual usage
 
user1804599
7:21 PM
Don't want the GC to kick in when you're about to crash.
 
user1804599
Haskell is multiparadigm.
 
Haskell sucks
learn ruby
 
every technique is just a tool and restricting yourself to only one particular tool just guarantees that you're gonna be using the wrong tool for some jobs.
 
Haskell has one main paradigm and then it has support for other things
 
7:22 PM
@BartekBanachewicz do you wanna review my code once I'm done with this problem
 
@Bartek He provided as an example quicksort or some other algorithm. Optimized haskell version was like 4x slower than unoptimized c++. He also said you can write haskell code that competes witg c++ performance-wise, but it starts looking like imperative code, which defeats the purpose
 
@Puppy nobody said you have to use one language for everything
 
user1804599
Haskell supports functional programming and literate programming.
 
user1804599
Multiparadigm.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Agree: take a look at Oz
 
7:22 PM
the main thing you'll see is probably me not knowing about library features (e.g. I'm turning a Word8 into a bit string by turning it into an int then building the string manually)
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but writing a program that's genuinely in multiple languages is a bitch that only makes things even worse unless the languages are explicitly designed to make it easy.
 
@AlexM. sure
@Puppy The point is you don't always need to. ex a: for games I think script+native is pretty much always the best. ex b: for stream data processing you might be ok with just an FP language.
 
6 hours ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
you'd be depressed as well if you had to work with C++
lol
 
if a language tries to be "every paradigm on the planet" like Nemerle that typically means its scope is too big
 
user1804599
Use COBOL for all business applications.
 
7:24 PM
btw @Puppy you'd prolly like Nemerle if you don't know it yet
 
@BartekBanachewicz IME script/native is pretty shitty really.
but that's another matter.
 
your experience is very limited here
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz no it lacks RAII
 
well I actually spent a few years modding a game in script
 
that's hardly meaningful at all
 
7:25 PM
@Puppy which game?
 
Supreme Commander
 
most of the top-quality game studios opt for scripting logic and native engine
most of the best games WRT technology were made that way
 
that's an appeal to authority fallacy
 
oh it looks cool.. is it similar to C&C somehow? (command&conquer)
Red Alert and that kind of stuff (can't remember the exact name)
 
@Puppy that's not a fallacy, that's a case study.
 
7:26 PM
no.
 
I'm not saying "they're saying it's good so it's good". I'm saying "they did that and achieved great things"
 
a case study would be, "Epic Games made UE4 out of script and native, and it benefitted them over just native in ways X, Y, and Z"
 
and "they" is p huge and significant here
 
nameless top-quality games with no details at all is not a case study.
@MarcoA. If you mean "In the same genre", then yes, it's similar
 
@Puppy it's most of the games really
the bigger ones.
UE4, CryEngine, Blizzard games
 
7:28 PM
I know a former CryTek developer.. didn't seem much content of working on that one
 
ok
 
I have to support namespaces for my doc program.
 
and now detail exactly how it benefitted each of them.
 
@Puppy and you can hardly tell how it benefitted them because they didn't make it the other way. The only thing we know is that they used it and it worked well.
 
Probably gonna be the most annoying thing to support.
 
7:29 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You don't know it worked well.
if they never made it the other way how can you ever make a meaningful comparison?
the only thing you can actually say is that they all use it.
you can't say shit about whether or not it's better.
 
user1804599
I wonder why APL has logical AND while multiplication suffices.
 
@Puppy Can you name any recent bigger games that were successes without scripting?
 
KSP
 
besides that's still an appeal to authority.
 
7:31 PM
KSP isn't really a big game
 
user1804599
Multiplication is more expensive maybe.
 
"Can you name any authorities who agree with you?"
 
@Puppy mm, no, that's asking for counterexample
@Puppy it's not about agreement. It's about showing that it can actually be done.
you're misunderstanding what the fallacy represents.
I didn't say "it must be good because they use it"
 
you don't really seem to be offering anything else in its defence.
 
You are saying that they are using it so it must be good.
Got it.
 
7:32 PM
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Puppy Can you name any recent bigger games that were successes without scripting?
What I'm saying that there seems to be a correlation between using scripting and a good game.
 
if by that you mean, "Do I go around checking all the technologies that all of the games that you consider to be arbitrarily big enough use?"
to which the answer is "no".
 
Minecraft uses scripting?
I guess it depends on what you mean by scripting.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ scroll up to find out.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Correlation is not causation; I can easily name a factor that covers both, namely money.
if you're Blizzard, and you can drop a hundred million dollars on Starcraft 2, it's not gonna matter that much if you lose a few hundred thousand dollars to making an inferior technical choice.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So, by your definition does Minecraft use scripting?
 
7:34 PM
and the others you've named all fall into the same bucket.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I don't think so.
 
not to mention that you've said two completely different things.
 
user1804599
Never heard of MinecraftScript?
 
Is it big enough or of success enough for you?
 
first you said "bigger games"; then you said "using scripting and a good game".
because I'll tell you right now that I have never played any UE4, CryEngine or Blizzard game that was as good as Kerbal Space Program, Starbound, or a bunch of other smaller games.
 
7:35 PM
@Puppy so you're saying that all of the companies with million dollar budgets and amazing engineers are making the very same inferior technical choice and producing great games despite the fact it's inferior
 
well you just said that nobody makes it the other way so how would they know that it's inferior?
 
I knew you're full of yourself, but the extent of your ego is bigger than your mom.
5
 
@Bartek what is the article about?
 
Is that an ad hominem now?
 
besides I'd be reasonably willing to bet that there's a bunch of high popularity console games where you can't inspect the technology where they didn't bother to use any scripting at all
 
7:36 PM
@Puppy yeah, it's like they never tried anything else
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes
@AndyProwl remember that thing Griwes helped me with? About existentials?
 
@BartekBanachewicz That is well within the bounds of reason.
 
basically the "double-existential polymorphism trick"
 
Here we see Bartek's ability to jump very quickly from a logical fallacy to the next, confusing the enemy
 
that's pretty much exactly what an appeal to authority fallacy is.
"The people who do it the way I think have all this money and all these great employees; therefore I'm right"
 
@Bartek nope, but it's likely I won't understand it if it involves existentials. Not without some struggling at least.
 
7:37 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no, I used a fallacy, acknowledged it, and stepped out of the discussion. Heck off.
 
@AndyProwl let me write the article and then we can assess it. It's not really that hard once you know the trick
 
@Bartek all right. Ping me when it's done
 
I should start a programming blog.
 
> Jefffrey created repository Jefffrey/Mom 4 hours ago
 
7:39 PM
And lead tens of programmers astray with my horrible advice.
 
@ThePhd call it "Programming blogjob"
 
@AndyProwl "Progjob", maybe?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hey, ping me too.
 
@ThePhd not enough pun IMO
(also, don't, that was a joke)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I love the name. I doubt I would understand what it's about though.
 
7:41 PM
@AndyProwl But... but I want to lead hundreds astray. :c
 
@ThePhD No I meant just the name
 
@AndyProwl Oh.
 
Don't call it like that
 
Maybe I should make it a Programming Diary.
Or... a Programming Tumblr?
 
I should renew my domain.
 
7:42 PM
Hm. What's a suitable place to stuff programming things on?
 
/dev/null
 
That's a Catty answer
 
it was such a great opportunity I just had to take it
 
@ThePhD I use ghpages
 
A Puppy answer would have involved anus or mom
 
7:43 PM
blog.banachewicz.pl is hosted from them
 
user1804599
@ThePhD Blogspot or GitHub or Tumblr or WordPress
 
Blah
I can't do multi-readline in python in a for loop
 
?
 
I want to do for line*7 in file or something
But I have to manually readline it. q_q
 
@AndyProwl way to go! When can we expect the video :)
 
user1804599
7:46 PM
10x10 multiplication table in APL: (⍳10)∘.×⍳10
 
user1804599
isn't that amazing? :D
 
no
 
user1804599
:'^(
 
@Puppy That's all your own subjective opinion. That's fine, but it's yours.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's completely true. But so is the other guy's.
 
7:48 PM
@BartekBanachewicz There's a correlation between actual talent and a good game.
Most games use scripting to some extent. Scripting does make it easier for the designers to quickly iterate through various features, although it's not strictly necessary and in the end it all depends on how it fits in the overall development workflow.
(In this discussion I'm using "scripting" as a general term for any use of code as data)
 
yes.
but not in a good way
 
user1804599
@sehe why not? :O
 
sehe's back!
Did you fix the bug?
 
@Columbo talk about evil fucking eyes
 
7:53 PM
uh wat
I keep forgetting FlexibleInstances isn't default
whyyyy
what could it possibly break
 
@ThePhD no word from test. Loox like I might have to test it myself still. But - still a chance it was a perfect score :)
(wednesdays are my parttime day "so" I didn't work; I know that's contradicatory with working nightly from home)
 
@elyse What's ∘ in APL? I only understand the rest of the formula.
 
user1804599
Please use monospace font.
 
user1804599
I can't see the character.
 
@Columbo I've always thought them a pest
 
7:55 PM
By clicking "send" you agree to the terms and conditions.
16
 
@elyse The small circle.
 
@elyse You're funny
 
user1804599
@Morwenn ∘.A computes the outer product using A as multiplication operator.
 
user1804599
without . is function composition.
 
@sehe I'd love to see a polar bear vs koala fight
Mainly because both seem fucking lazy to me
 
7:56 PM
The Union is against it
 
user1804599
So you could do an "outer product" with sum instead of multiply by writing ∘.+.
 
aaaargh
web login form assumes that we have states in the UK.
 
@elyse Ok, it makes sens now. Thanks :)
 
fuckers, I'mma write up a support ticket for you right now.
 
@Columbo God damned Australians.
 
7:57 PM
@Puppy that'll teach them!
 
user1804599
So it's the outer product of ⍳10 and ⍳10.
 
@thecoshman Hey :(
 
@Puppy doesn't that, like, happen everyday
 
nah
 
Since 1992?
 
user1804599
7:58 PM
Where ⍳n is the vector containing the integers 1, 2 ... n - 1, n.
 
@Puppy For me it does
 
I haven't really encountered it in a while.
they will probably ignore the ticket but I don't really care right now because fuck them.
 
@elyse Yeah, I already knew what iota meant :p
 
user1804599
Good.
 
@Puppy Hmmm. Maybe not as much anymore. But I don't even flinch. I just fill in anything
 
7:59 PM
@Columbo This is an important issue
 
Shooting always is
 

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