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6:00 PM
@ScottW lol, this is your solution?
 
tubyube is really not that fair towards its content providers
I actually wish it died and got replaced by something better
 
4 mins ago, by ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ
@ScottW What is another alternative, other than asking donations/fees to users?
Asking people for money for all services that are currently run by ads is unrealistic as fuck.
 
@BartoszKP Oh well. What if the person is addicted and is "blind"? The same way people are addicted to facebook and such.
 
Of course paywalls are not realistic for majority of the content
But that's because they're cumbersome and the content is not that valuable in the first place
 
@ScottW No, I'm saying that when you have a service with a large audience, which is mainly using your service as entertainment, it's unrealistic to ask your users to pay for a fee to watch the content.
Yes, it's what Netflix does
 
6:02 PM
It's sorta like movie companies crying about piracy and then geolocking shit
 
That wouldn't work for Youtube.
 
@khajvah The same way people are addicted to donuts. Do you consider selling donuts unethical?
 
99% of tubyube is garbage
No, wait, more
 
Where the content generated is produced by your own visitors.
 
@BartoszKP Donuts don't harm you.
 
6:02 PM
The fact is that the internet enjoys garbage.
 
If you were to commercialize a fee-based YT, you would go bankrupt within a year
 
@khajvah Of course they do, if you're obese.
 
That Google can't figure out any business model other than ads (shocking) doesn't mean there is no other business model
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ lol
And you base that on what, exactly
Your economical background?
 
@BartoszKP That's not comparable. Everything is harmful but that definition.
 
YT-scale services doing the same?
 
6:03 PM
@CatPlusPlus What are you basing your opinions on? Your economical background?
 
Twitch has subscriptions and is doing fine
 
Nobody is an economy expert here.
 
I'm not making silly claims with timeframes
 
Loss of privacy is much more serious than what a donut can do to you.
 
@CatPlusPlus Except Twitch doesn't have nearly has much audience as YT and doesn't get nearly enough money out of it.
 
6:05 PM
Uh
 
It's basic market rules really.
 
And that's why YT would go bankrupt...?
 
If there was a better way, we would have seen it already.
 
Good logic there
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because?
 
Especially considering that some of these services are run by huge corporations like Google, which are greedy when it comes to gaining as much money as possible.
 
6:05 PM
I would pay for Netflix instead of ugly free movie websites if those selfish wankers made it available in my country.
 
Man, auto would completely solve my entire problem.
 
Me too
 
@khajvah Why it's not comparable? It fits your example exactly. Obesity is a major problem in many countries. And people do become blind and addicted to food.
 
Ban fat people
 
2 mins ago, by khajvah
Loss of privacy is much more serious than what a donut can do to you.
 
6:06 PM
Maybe I'd have motivation to not be fat
(Probably not)
 
Thinking that every business model based on ads is stupidly put there because of "traditions" and not because it's the best way known for that model, is stupid.
 
There's an actual science, people studying these shit all day long.
 
From business point of view it is perfect
 
And then there's you doing popularity argument
So there's that
 
6:07 PM
@khajvah Dying for one of diseases caused by obesity seems much more serious to me.
 
lol
I better add ads to our game
 
@ScottW Never said that. Maybe some day we'll find a better way.
 
Start by not producing worthless crap and expecting people to pay for it
 
That has nothing to do with ads whatsoever.
 
Sure does
 
6:09 PM
How?
 
I paid like 40$ for a forums account
 
@BartoszKP You are bringing an extreme case.
 
I wouldn't pay 0.1% of that for most of the web content
Not renewing, I bought platinum, noads and an avatar
 
@CatPlusPlus How is what you would pay for relevant in any way?
 
BECAUSE IM NOT POOR
 
6:10 PM
Adds make websites look cheap and with bad quality
 
@khajvah Just like you comparing google to a drug dealer.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Uhh
It's a data point for your thorough analysis of the alternatives to ad model
Figure it out genius
 
Still discussing about ads?
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
6:11 PM
@BartoszKP I was comparing for one point only. And that is that two-way agreement is not always a guarantee of ethics
 
Figure out a proper alternative to ads which is at least as profitable as ads, and then we can talk about removing ads.
 
> SetCurrentProcessExplicitAppUserModelID
Shell guys are not holding back
 
People get blind by all the services that Google offers and stop caring.
 
@khajvah I agree that it's not. I've already indicated that, for example, agreements that are not clear and thus are misleading to anyone not being a lawyer can be considered unethical. But this is not the case here.
 
Ads are not as profitable as you think anyway
CPM is usually on pittance level
And CPC is not much higher
You really have to be an established thing to be able to use ads effectively
 
6:14 PM
I agree
 
user1804599
Writing parsers is boring.
 
@BartoszKP There is a sightly different case. They show something pretty convenient and burry the bad parts in user agreement documents.
 
@ScottW pretty ho hum
you
 
@khajvah so, what is the case here? The fact how ads work, in general, is not buried in user agreement documents, so what is unethical?
 
I will never consider reading peoples' personal emails ethical in any case.
 
6:17 PM
@elyse You don't say .______.
 
@BartoszKP Reading/looking at people's personal stuff is unethical.
 
@khajvah lol, even if I forward you my email, asking the other person before?
 
Just the same way it is it is unethical to read other's paper mails.
 
user1804599
@Morwenn write me a parser.
 
@elyse it only accepts whitespace, is that ok?
 
user1804599
6:18 PM
No.
 
@khajvah Explain, how is it unethical to read my private mail/e-mail if I show it to you?
 
@BartoszKP What a bad comparison. I trusted you with the email I sent you. If you forward to somebody without my permission, yes it is unethical.
 
user1804599
Ethics are for idiots who care too much about the opinions of other idiots.
 
@khajvah What about sending a bot that analizes the content?
It's not like google has gossip girls running random emails.
 
@khajvah Am I also not allowed to tell anybody about what you've written to me? (not considering the fact, that it's you who is sending your e-mail to a known domain, so you should know better)
 
6:19 PM
@BartoszKP Depends on the email.
 
@ScottW Just once, 3 hours or so.
Kebabtime
 
@ScottW I'm good. sup
 
@khajvah why? google ads mechanism doesn't understand e-mails
 
@BartoszKP Thesame logic works for conversation between two people. If I am telling a secret, no, you shoulldn't tell to anybody else.
 
Feb 8 at 18:19, by Andy Prowl
Hanging out in the Lounge is not slacking, it's growing professionally.
 
6:21 PM
@khajvah If you are shouting your secret in an elevator full of other people, telling me not to tell anyone, then sorry, but I can't do anything about you being stupid.
 
@BartoszKP It's not only ads they use your emails for. But even for the ads, it is a terrible feeling.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no one caught the typo
 
@khajvah So, to conclude, making you feel terrible is unethical?
 
@BartoszKP I am not shouting while sending an email.
 
@khajvah you are sending it to an unknown domain through the internet, sounds similar
 
6:22 PM
it was a funny typo though
not a grammar nazi typo
 
Grammar Jews.
 
user1804599
grammar communists
 
@BartoszKP And we are back to the same argument why "unknown domains" shouldn't read emails.
 
kelsey grammar
 
@khajvah But why not? You are not forced to send the e-mails to them.
 
6:24 PM
@BartoszKP How does that matter? Are you saying that we can't use internet for private communication?
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
> It work
 
user1804599
> indianfunnypicture.com
 
@elyse Stupid Programmers While Coding
 
maybe it's IT work? :p
 
6:26 PM
Last time I couldn't understand why my code didn't work was some ugly-ass SQL.
 
I seem to have slightly broken our build system, and suddenly my binary size shrunk by 1/4. Also, if I build too often, I get linker errors...
 
@khajvah lol, of course you can, if you're stupid. Is internet obliged in any way to guard your privacy?
 
aye :p
 
@elyse Then don't
 
user1804599
butbubtut
 
user1804599
6:28 PM
i have to
 
@BartoszKP It's not "obliged". The same way Google is not "obliged" to not read your emails. But just because somebody is not obliged to do somehting, doesn't make it ethical to do it.
 
user1804599
this is so hilarious
 
Use s-exprs, implement once, and then play with actual stuff
 
> Forbidden

You don't have permission to access / on this server.
 
6:29 PM
@Jeremy Better call tech support.
 
also, TIL git commit --reuse-message also reuses the author, timestamp from the specified commit...who named that?
 
@khajvah lol, you're running round, It's not the case that google is not obliged to read your emails, it explicitly says it will do so, so it's your choice.
 
@BartoszKP We are getting back to the argument about user agreements.
 
@melak47 Git people are not very good at UIs
 
6:31 PM
@BartoszKP In the same way you can find it ethical to send your GPS information to Google and let them know where you are every second.
 
@khajvah No, because you don't need user agreement to know this, as I've told you 235234234 times already. It's written in plain text.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus use an edn library
 
@khajvah Yes, I find it ethical to send any information concerning me to anyone I like.
 
@BartoszKP Plain text is the user agreement. I never said it is not human readable. I have read it myself. I just said, user agreement is not a way to inform people about the bad stuff that is going on.
 
^
 
6:32 PM
@khajvah Not in the user agreement, see the link I told you about 309523094j234 times already.
@khajvah Here is one example, for you convenience, again: support.google.com/mail/answer/6603?hl=en
 
@BartoszKP By user agreement I mean the plain and easily readable text that you are talking about and that people rarely read.
 
@elyse Good to know they make those
 
@khajvah Me too, that's why I tell you, you don't need user agreement to know the fact about reading e-mails.
 
That doesn't change any of my arguments, as all of them are also about the text that you have sent me.
Be it user readable or not, people won't read and won't care.
And also the only way to find that link is to explicitly search for it.
 
@khajvah how is it google's problem, that people don't read and don't care?
 
6:36 PM
@BartoszKP Well, we are back again to the beginning of this argument :D
@BartoszKP And I will restate this point.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus is that sarcasm?
 
@khajvah I agree that it may be a problem that this policy is not stated more explicitly than it is now. But this doesn't make reading e-mails unethical - not informing about this fact is.
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus is that sarcasm?
 
6:38 PM
@BartoszKP My point was that people are not informed that they share personal stuff. And Google uses that fact to target people.
and that makes it unethical
 
user1804599
@MarcoA. In the Netherlands you have to pay less tax for those because tax is based on piston count.
 
@Mysticial morons everywhere
 
@khajvah under every e-mail message you have a link titled "Privacy" which leads to a page that states the fact that google is reading your e-mails in like 2nd sentence. What more do you need?
 
@elyse I didn't know that
 
6:40 PM
@BartoszKP I want it in their front page.
 
@khajvah I want 1000$.
 
@BartoszKP Do you mean that small and unattractive link that every website puts?
 
@elyse is it really?
 
user1804599
Partially, yes.
 
user1804599
Road tax.
 
6:41 PM
@khajvah lol, why is it unattractive? It says "privacy" so should be quite interesting for anyone that is not stupid.
 
@BartoszKP That's like 10% of humanity.
 
one of our cars has a V12 engine, remind me never to move to the netherlands
 
@khajvah That's like your opinion.
 
@BartoszKP If people cared about privacy, gmail would be used only for spamming.
@ScottW :D nice
 
Guys I'm in a cafe coding jabbascript, am I hipster yet?
 
6:43 PM
What cafe
 
@ʞɔᴉN Do you have a mac?
 
@khajvah as a matter of fact, yes
 
@khajvah That's like your another opinion.
 
@ʞɔᴉN There we go.
 
@ScottW how did you know??
 
6:44 PM
@ScottW exactly what I was thinking ; D
 
user1804599
@ʞɔᴉN Iff the cafe is a Starbucks.
 
GMail is garbage, Google is garbage and scraping emails is never good no matter how much you sugarcoat it
hth
 
@ScottW thanks bb
@CatPlusPlus you're just mad because you're a cat and can't actually type on a keyboard properly
 
@BartoszKP Not really. You don't have privacy, you don't speak/send private stuff, it is simple.
 
yeah well I go 0 to 100 real quick
:)
 
6:46 PM
And anything that doesn't have some degree of privacy is either spam or one of those open emails conversation that they post.
 
I think most people care about convenience more than privacy, no matter what they say
 
@khajvah In what world are you living? I assume not in the one where people advertise private stuff publicly every day on facebook/radio/tv/twitter or even on a bus talking loudly through a mobile?
 
@ʞɔᴉN Is that why you are using mac?
 
can you imagine getting everyone to start using PGP encryption for emails?
@khajvah I suppose
 
@ʞɔᴉN I can imagine making is as simple as one click.
 
6:47 PM
@khajvah how would you exchange keys?
you would have to trust the service to handle that for you
 
@ʞɔᴉN are you using sublime text?
 
@MarcoA. yes I have ST3 open right now
 
@ʞɔᴉN If it were integrated into the mail client well enough to make it easy, I can imagine a much larger percentage using it (but even then, not all).
 
@ʞɔᴉN GREAT
 
@BartoszKP I will make an argument for you. "You still put your private emails in your hipster email provider's servers. That's not private". And I have no answer to that argument.
@ʞɔᴉN public keys are public.
 
6:49 PM
what about the private ones
for privacy
 
ITT private keys are public and vice-versa
 
@khajvah Trust is not public
 
@khajvah Without some way to verify the owner, they're open to MITM attacks.
 
@khajvah sorry, I don't follow
 
@JerryCoffin +1
 
6:50 PM
@BartoszKP I made an argument agains myself and I stopped arguing.
 
@ScottW I use sublime <3
 
:25004317 With what
You already self-sign your keys
 
lol yeah, that's a dead-end
 
@khajvah lol
 
"Trust me because I trust me, even though you still don't have any clue about who I am"
 
6:51 PM
@khajvah lol :)
 
regarding starbucks... why on Earth there's no starbucks in Italy? France has them, Germany has them... Italy doesn't. I can't be hipster in Italy!
 
So, let's think of a way to minimize the trust.
 
true end-to-end encryption is not convenient for most people
 
You can't minimize the trust
We're already talking about minimal trust
 
@CatPlusPlus because Cat already trusts no one!
 
6:52 PM
Or eliminate the trust.
 
Unverified keys are about as good as no keys
 
Right
 
@MarcoA. wait really? I thought starbucks was in all civilized parts of the world
 
@MarcoA. Count yer blessings
 
@ʞɔᴉN that explains why we haven't them here
 
6:53 PM
@ʞɔᴉN I find that offensive.
 
I am a very offensive person
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ confirmation needed: no starbucks in Italy right?
 
Let's hook public keys to facebook accounts. In that way we can trust the owner.
 
@khajvah let's hook public keys to ask.fm. In that way you can trust that the answerer is a moron
 
lol
Ok, I might be changing my opinion about ads(not targetted ones).
 
6:57 PM
@ScottW I thought that was Cat's job
@khajvah a lounger changing his opinion?
 
@ʞɔᴉN Mark this day on your calendar. :)
untargetted ads might be fine, though they make websites look ugly.
 
Loungers change opinions. They just don't admit it.
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